Flighty
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:58 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe the executive order is to make all illegal immigrants "diplomats", therefore ending birthright citizenship?


But that doesn't do anything to the "birth tourism", though. It's one thing to argue that illegal immigrants are not "under jurisdiction" (Which, well, is not even true), it's another thing to argue that people on nonimmigrant visa to US are not "under jurisdiction" of US (Then I guess they can break whatever laws they want?).

And actually, with diplomatic immunity, that means those so-call "illegal immigrants" cannot be deport by US. Be careful of what you wish for :duck:

P.S. And Drumpf is already saying "let the supreme court decide" anyway, just like what everyone predicted. But wait, only yesterday that he was arguing that he can literally use a EO to take away the citizenship rights.


He can write an EO, and when people sue him about that, it would go to the courts.

I don't know anything about constitutional law, but this phrase probably did not mean "any person born in the US is a citizen" at the time it was written. In today's English, that is what it means. But that is an informal practice (NOT a change in the law) that happened in around the 1960s. Prior to that, people did not consider any person born in the US is automatically a citizen. The 14th Amendment existed for 1 century before people interpreted it that way.

Perhaps it is more appropriate for an actual law to change than for interpretation to change. Because that's the problem here - if it is only an interpretation, then Trump, as commander in chief, can of course update that interpretation.

As I noted in another thread, approx. 39% of Americans agree that the birthright citizenship practice (which didn't start happening with the 14th Amendment) needs to be reconsidered. Of that ~39%, probably a majority are Republican voters, but I have seen plenty of liberal commentary on this in the past. Clinton and Obama gave rousing speeches against illegal immigration in the past.

This project is a fringe position within the powerful people / intelligentsia, but not among Republican voters. Well over 50% of them probably support this, and the Supreme Court could conceivably support an EO based on the history of the 14th Amendment.

Agreed with Kaitak... this is clear Stephen Miller. You can tell his fingerprints are on it.
Last edited by Flighty on Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:07 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!


You do realize, don't you, that since 9/11 there have been 23 attacks by "Muslim extremists"... and more than 70 by "right-wing extremists"... don't you?

:roll:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:12 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And actually, with diplomatic immunity, that means those so-call "illegal immigrants" cannot be deport by US. Be careful of what you wish for :duck:


They could not be arrested or detained, but they can be PNGed, and lose their diplomatic protection if they don't leave.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm

I’ve always thought it was a dumb idea to be given citizenship in a country just because you are born there, especially if neither of your parents are citizens.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:39 pm

Flighty wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe the executive order is to make all illegal immigrants "diplomats", therefore ending birthright citizenship?


But that doesn't do anything to the "birth tourism", though. It's one thing to argue that illegal immigrants are not "under jurisdiction" (Which, well, is not even true), it's another thing to argue that people on nonimmigrant visa to US are not "under jurisdiction" of US (Then I guess they can break whatever laws they want?).

And actually, with diplomatic immunity, that means those so-call "illegal immigrants" cannot be deport by US. Be careful of what you wish for :duck:

P.S. And Drumpf is already saying "let the supreme court decide" anyway, just like what everyone predicted. But wait, only yesterday that he was arguing that he can literally use a EO to take away the citizenship rights.


He can write an EO, and when people sue him about that, it would go to the courts.

I don't know anything about constitutional law, but this phrase probably did not mean "any person born in the US is a citizen" at the time it was written. In today's English, that is what it means. But that is an informal practice (NOT a change in the law) that happened in around the 1960s. Prior to that, people did not consider any person born in the US is automatically a citizen. The 14th Amendment existed for 1 century before people interpreted it that way.

Perhaps it is more appropriate for an actual law to change than for interpretation to change. Because that's the problem here - if it is only an interpretation, then Trump, as commander in chief, can of course update that interpretation.

As I noted in another thread, approx. 39% of Americans agree that the birthright citizenship practice (which didn't start happening with the 14th Amendment) needs to be reconsidered. Of that ~39%, probably a majority are Republican voters, but I have seen plenty of liberal commentary on this in the past. Clinton and Obama gave rousing speeches against illegal immigration in the past.

This project is a fringe position within the powerful people / intelligentsia, but not among Republican voters. Well over 50% of them probably support this, and the Supreme Court could conceivably support an EO based on the history of the 14th Amendment.

Agreed with Kaitak... this is clear Stephen Miller. You can tell his fingerprints are on it.


There are precedents to this issue that have to be overcome, and an EO won't cut it. There were many reasons for having it as a defacto policy, not the least of which has to do with where people are born and settle.

However look at other cases of citizens of the US, Canada, and Mexico that live on the borders. Sometimes the closest medical units are in the other country, and having dual citizenship helps with jobs and health. These are folks that have to visit the neighboring country many times.

For others it is a gift to a newborn child that knows nothing of this rampant xenophobia and racism present in those that would change birthright citizenship. As children grow, they can renounce one of the countries and move on.
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I’ve always thought it was a dumb idea to be given citizenship in a country just because you are born there, especially if neither of your parents are citizens.

But really its not, most importantly it prevent a baby form being/becoming "stateless".

A prime example right now is the Uighurs, they are being forced into "reeducation camps" in China and so many have fled the country. They departed legally and have legal visas etc. but quite often their requests for asylum in Europe have been turned down. This means they either risk going back or stay illegally but their passports expire and China of course won't renew them. They then become effectively stateless and so do their children. There is no reason that should happen.

Also, to put it simply, birthright citizenship has been a boon to the USA and certain not harmed the nation over the years.

Tugg
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:44 pm

Flighty wrote:
As I noted in another thread, approx. 39% of Americans agree that the birthright citizenship practice (which didn't start happening with the 14th Amendment) needs to be reconsidered. Of that ~39%, probably a majority are Republican voters, but I have seen plenty of liberal commentary on this in the past. Clinton and Obama gave rousing speeches against illegal immigration in the past.


Except it's NOT just illegal immigration that Drumpf is referring to. You really think all those Russians/Chinese mothers would take the chance and run across some desert or swim across Rio Grande? And also, where does that leave all the people that come to US LEGALLY, albeit they may not be citizens (or even Green Card holder) yet?

Kiwirob wrote:
I’ve always thought it was a dumb idea to be given citizenship in a country just because you are born there, especially if neither of your parents are citizens.


Dumb idea or not, the law is the law, and one that's specifically written in the Constitution as well. Don't like it? Start the process of amending it. Don't tell me that it's impossible. If it's such a popular idea, it would go through the Congress and the states easily.

Not to mention, back when 14th amendment was passed, it never mentioned about how "once parent(s) must be citizen" precisely b/c the parents of those slaves (or the grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.) are not considered "citizen". Hence the jus soli laws. It's written that way precisely b/c of all those Southern States are going to find whatever loophole to prevent slaves from being "true" citizens otherwise. The "subject to jurisdiction" part actually excluded Native Americans for many years (since "Indian Land" are technically not part of US and are NOT subject to the jurisdiction of US), until 1924's Indian Citizenship Act granted the Native Americans citizenship.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:12 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
Everyone always starts attacking the administration. But I, for one, as a US citizen, wouldn't mind having a discussion about this law.


This isn't about being butt-hurt. I'm pretty liberal and yet I'm open to an honest and good-faith discussion about birthright citizenship. However, the key point here is that it's not a law, it's the Constitution and it's not subject to repeal by executive order.

It is possible that Congress could *clarify* the policy by an Act, but it would almost certainly be challenged in court (whether the Act were lenient or strict) and the meaning of the 14th Amendment would ultimately be clarified by SCOTUS.

The other option would be to amend the Constitution which is difficult to do by design.

What is clear is that the current immigration system 1) encourages illegal immigration 2) treats those illegal immigrants horribly 3) relies on illegal immigrant labor to run the country. This is problematic. I would be open to a number of different options for immigration reform, some of which might involve a constitutional amendment.

But the idea that Mr. Trump feels that he can just do this by EO is troubling. That's not how this nation is meant to work. Mr. Graham, being the good little lapdog that he is, introduced legislation to end the conferring of birthright citizenship. I very much doubt that this legislation will go anywhere.
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:35 pm

I think it's safe to say a majority of "liberals" are interested in a long-term workable solution to immigration, one that solves for the immigrants you desire the most and a humane way of dealing with those you should succor in their desperate struggle to survive. We all want the first because that's the ticket to long-term global competitiveness..and we do it better than anyone else by offering world-class tertiary education, a great place to raise your kids (if you have the right means which this class of person does at the rate of nearly 100%) and excellent working prospects/choices. This is a shared goal of both Dems and Repubs, even the craziest ones on each side of the aisle.

Where it all falls apart is the latter issue, the "undesirables". Their numbers are actually falling but they remain almost as critical as the first type because they keep the workforce supplied with future tax payers and they perform jobs that keep inflation in check. A small percentage of them engage in criminal activity, and I'd wager that percentage is in line with legal citizens engaged in the same. In my crossings of the United States I have rarely, if ever, seen people that work as hard as low wage immigrants. They are a valuable resource and a key component of our long-term economic health.

The problem as Doc points out is that we have no real or viable pathway to legal immigration except for the desirables heading to US colleges. Even there it can take 10 years of legal limbo with people fearful of traveling back home to visit dying parents and not getting back in, and being forced to remain with their sponsoring employer until their Green Card comes through (6-10 years). That is very shitty and yet the best way into the US for an immigrant. For the other type of immigrants, like those from Latin America, there is literally no viable pathway. This is what needs to change, devising and implementing a process that is humane, attainable and yet with control mechanisms to prevent being "overrun"(this has never happened in our history and this caravan ain't it either). And I also support strong control of the border, like most liberals I bet. But it isn't for fear of starving Hondurans desperate to pick strawberries for my smoothie, I'd rather do it to stem the flow of hard drugs and opioids into the country. There's a thought.

Fix the process and we'll be on our way to fixing the problem. A wall does nothing as evidenced by the fact that a major percentage of meth and cocaine enters the country by tunnels (tunnels that can fit lots of people inside of them). A more realistic solution on that list of "stupid choices" would be to saw ourselves off from Mexico and Canada and float away next to Oahu. I probably shouldn't have said that. One mention on Fox Five Friends and the Trumpster might threaten to sign another EO.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:51 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!



So is the difference if someone is born in the U.S. that has many generations of family that lived in the U.S. for a long time go out and commit a mass shooting? That sounds like a national security issue,
 
BestWestern
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:33 pm

I thought the constitution was written by God and can’t be changed, or is that only the part about bearing arms?
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Flighty
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:10 pm

wingman wrote:
I think it's safe to say a majority of "liberals" are interested in a long-term workable solution to immigration, one that solves for the immigrants you desire the most and a humane way of dealing with those you should succor in their desperate struggle to survive. We all want the first because that's the ticket to long-term global competitiveness..and we do it better than anyone else by offering world-class tertiary education, a great place to raise your kids (if you have the right means which this class of person does at the rate of nearly 100%) and excellent working prospects/choices. This is a shared goal of both Dems and Repubs, even the craziest ones on each side of the aisle.

Where it all falls apart is the latter issue, the "undesirables". Their numbers are actually falling but they remain almost as critical as the first type because they keep the workforce supplied with future tax payers and they perform jobs that keep inflation in check. A small percentage of them engage in criminal activity, and I'd wager that percentage is in line with legal citizens engaged in the same. In my crossings of the United States I have rarely, if ever, seen people that work as hard as low wage immigrants. They are a valuable resource and a key component of our long-term economic health.

The problem as Doc points out is that we have no real or viable pathway to legal immigration except for the desirables heading to US colleges. Even there it can take 10 years of legal limbo with people fearful of traveling back home to visit dying parents and not getting back in, and being forced to remain with their sponsoring employer until their Green Card comes through (6-10 years). That is very shitty and yet the best way into the US for an immigrant. For the other type of immigrants, like those from Latin America, there is literally no viable pathway. This is what needs to change, devising and implementing a process that is humane, attainable and yet with control mechanisms to prevent being "overrun"(this has never happened in our history and this caravan ain't it either). And I also support strong control of the border, like most liberals I bet. But it isn't for fear of starving Hondurans desperate to pick strawberries for my smoothie, I'd rather do it to stem the flow of hard drugs and opioids into the country. There's a thought.

Fix the process and we'll be on our way to fixing the problem. A wall does nothing as evidenced by the fact that a major percentage of meth and cocaine enters the country by tunnels (tunnels that can fit lots of people inside of them). A more realistic solution on that list of "stupid choices" would be to saw ourselves off from Mexico and Canada and float away next to Oahu. I probably shouldn't have said that. One mention on Fox Five Friends and the Trumpster might threaten to sign another EO.


Why does there need to be "a viable pathway" for all people to emigrate to the US? Did you particularly mean all Latin Americans? Or all poor people? Poor by local, or by US standards? That would be roughly 5-6 billion people.

I think a long term viable solution would have clear, set limits on immigration, potentially allowing fewer than the roughly 2M/year who are arriving now. It would have to be a number most American voters are comfortable with. While ensuring very strong wages for Americans. I actually find that the current liberal platform on immigration does not take long term viability into account at all. It needs to.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:11 pm

BestWestern wrote:
I thought the constitution was written by God and can’t be changed, or is that only the part about bearing arms?


Apparently, anyone with orange skin and yellow hair thinks he is god...

:roll:
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:48 pm

Flighty wrote:
WI think a long term viable solution would have clear, set limits on immigration, potentially allowing fewer than the roughly 2M/year who are arriving now. It would have to be a number most American voters are comfortable with. While ensuring very strong wages for Americans. I actually find that the current liberal platform on immigration does not take long term viability into account at all. It needs to.

Hmm, for me, I am thinking more like 3.5-4 million a year. Or about a 1% (just over) rate. I could be comfortable with that. And how do you ensure strong wages for "Americans"? And why? If those immigrating are better smarter, faster and harder working, then why should they not also have a "strong wage"? I think that is what should be the guide for "very strong wages". Or do you support increased welfare for "Americans" to ensure they make more than immigrants? (I certainly don't and think welfare etc. needs to be reduced).

As to long term viability, how does your idea (or the conservative platform on immigration) improve long term viability? The USA has always been strongest with strong (high) immigration.

My conservative side wants higher immigration and a better process in place. I don't support jumping people here illegally "to the front of the line" but can support a properly laid out process to allow even those here illegally to become legal residents.

Tugg
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seb146
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:00 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I’ve always thought it was a dumb idea to be given citizenship in a country just because you are born there, especially if neither of your parents are citizens.


What about other countries that have this policy? How do they handle the parents? I know dear leader said we are the only one. Except for Canada and Mexico and Antigua and Cuba and Brazil and......
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:48 am

seb146 wrote:
What about other countries that have this policy? How do they handle the parents? I know dear leader said we are the only one. Except for Canada and Mexico and Antigua and Cuba and Brazil and......

... and 30 or so more countries...

Dear leader can't count.

:roll:
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:05 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe the executive order is to make all illegal immigrants "diplomats", therefore ending birthright citizenship? :duck:


Of course I'm not serious but it actually got me thinking, what if the intent is not to "end birthright citizenship by blatantly going against the 14th Amendment" but rather to somehow define certain groups in such a way where it wouldn't apply to them? Does such a loophole exist? Make it so they're not subject to our jurisdiction through some technical language?

Of course, it just seems like a way to mobilze the base but who knows



I will go with the latter part about exciting his base.
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A3801000
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:11 am

angusjt wrote:
I'm not from the states and have only just caught on to this debate but can anyone elaborate on how ending birthright citizenship would be "racist" as some people are claiming?

Virtually every country outside the America's has either abolished or has never recognized BC, including my country, Australia.


Please inform yourself. Dozens of countries have the same ruling.
 
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:14 am

AA747123 wrote:
Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!



In case you've missed the news, it is white men who kill US citizens and not foreigners.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:21 am

https://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2018/10 ... is-kobachs

I thought Jeffery Toobin was right on the money on this subject tonight.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:59 am

Flighty wrote:
He can write an EO, and when people sue him about that, it would go to the courts.

I don't know anything about constitutional law, but this phrase probably did not mean "any person born in the US is a citizen" at the time it was written. In today's English, that is what it means. But that is an informal practice (NOT a change in the law) that happened in around the 1960s. Prior to that, people did not consider any person born in the US is automatically a citizen. The 14th Amendment existed for 1 century before people interpreted it that way.

.
.
.
the Supreme Court could conceivably support an EO based on the history of the 14th Amendment.


There was a court case in 1898, that's not in the 60's.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:10 am

I don't see any mention of my country, France, we also have jus soli here, although there are some restrictions. A newborn of foreign parents born in France is on a path to citizenship rather than a citizen right away. 5 years residence are needed to finally get the citizenship. No need for the parents to have a legal resident status, though.

Outside of illegal immigrants who simply live their lives and have children that end up being French at some point, I'm only aware of abuses in the Comoros archipelago : heavily pregnant comoreans women take a small boat to try and land on Mayotte and have the baby there. Either they're turned down before making it, or they do make it and are deported. In that case they usually leave the child with family settled on the island. As a consequence Mayotte has crazy population growth and no real economic activity aside from managing all these children (hospitals, schools, administration...).
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 am

DocLightning wrote:
the meaning of the 14th Amendment would ultimately be clarified by SCOTUS.

Unless the Roberts Court wants to reverse past precedent, this is already a settled matter. The SCOTUS already ruled on the matter that a parent's status has nothing to do with whether a child born in US jurisdiction receives US citizenship.

It would be interesting if the GOP wants the court to change its definition: they would admit that the Constitution is not static in time and adapts to present day situations...which means opposition and outrage to the Obergefell ruling is hypocritical of them.
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:47 pm

Tugger wrote:
Flighty wrote:
WI think a long term viable solution would have clear, set limits on immigration, potentially allowing fewer than the roughly 2M/year who are arriving now. It would have to be a number most American voters are comfortable with. While ensuring very strong wages for Americans. I actually find that the current liberal platform on immigration does not take long term viability into account at all. It needs to.

Hmm, for me, I am thinking more like 3.5-4 million a year. Or about a 1% (just over) rate. I could be comfortable with that. And how do you ensure strong wages for "Americans"? And why? If those immigrating are better smarter, faster and harder working, then why should they not also have a "strong wage"? I think that is what should be the guide for "very strong wages". Or do you support increased welfare for "Americans" to ensure they make more than immigrants? (I certainly don't and think welfare etc. needs to be reduced).

As to long term viability, how does your idea (or the conservative platform on immigration) improve long term viability? The USA has always been strongest with strong (high) immigration.

My conservative side wants higher immigration and a better process in place. I don't support jumping people here illegally "to the front of the line" but can support a properly laid out process to allow even those here illegally to become legal residents.

Tugg


I think what Flighty means is ensuring that the # of immigrants allowed in does not cause stagnated wages by lowering labor force demand (increasing labor force participation). This could be across the board, from low wage earners to high wage earners. It's one of the reasons H1-B visas have strict rules governing pay etc. (An H1-B visa recipient must be paid market wages essentially) If the market really needs the labor, wages will rise and thus the immigration is justified. If wages stagnant then immigration numbers are too high.

I am a believer that illegal immigration has helped wages stagnant for the lower income brackets. (Though it is not the sole driver - automation and other factors also contribute to this.)
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:14 pm

I find it funny that the folks who for years cried "King Obama" are eerily quiet, laughing, or even egging Trump on.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:50 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I am a believer that illegal immigration has helped wages stagnant for the lower income brackets. (Though it is not the sole driver - automation and other factors also contribute to this.)


To me, why not jailed the employers for hiring illegals, then? No jobs for illegals = illegals have zero incentives to actually enter US. This was seen when illegals entering US dropped when the economy was not all that great during early Obama years.

Oh wait, they may arrest some tiny small business owner hiring 1 or 2 illegals, but some meatpacking plants or farms with 100s of them (not necessarily at a single location)? Wait, I forgot that those are Republican donors (I mean, according to Republican, all Democrats are lazy-ass who just relied on welfare, and Republicans are always the one that are hiring :duck: ).

einsteinboricua wrote:
I find it funny that the folks who for years cried "King Obama" are eerily quiet, laughing, or even egging Trump on.


And "balance budget", "debt ceiling"...wait, silence :shhh:
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:54 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I find it funny that the folks who for years cried "King Obama" are eerily quiet, laughing, or even egging Trump on.


Personally, I'm still trying to make heads or tails of where jurisdiction comes into play. Been meaning to look up some of the original intents of the 14th amendment (beyond the fact that it was designed to counter dred scott ruling).

I don't think an executive order would stand up in the SCOTUS though. Nor do I think that is the appropriate avenue. I definitely view this as Trump trying to bring this into the discussion to gain points in the midterm 100%. The only way I could see an executive order standing up is if Congress has somehow legislated immigration policy freedoms to the executive branch in some way that allowed it to interpret what jurisdiction really means. I don't know, and I doubt that to be the case.

I think Graham's bill, if it were to actually go anywhere, would have a better shot at holding up in the SCOTUS. Congress could, I suppose, make or change laws governing the jurisdiction terminology.

I have been troubled by Trump's use of executive orders. I know many are just reversing what some of President Obama's orders were. But I'm not a fan of using executive orders when you expect it to be challenged all the way to the SCOTUS.

As an aside, what has happened to lindsey graham! He's a different person than he was a year ago.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:59 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
As an aside, what has happened to lindsey graham! He's a different person than he was a year ago.

His mancrush of years died a short time ago but was already on his way out.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:09 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
As an aside, what has happened to lindsey graham! He's a different person than he was a year ago.


Probably in the anger stage of griefing after McCain died. :tombstone:

More seriously, maybe now that he's no longer in McCain's shadow, that he's just showing his true color? That or he need another man-crush and Drumpf fits that role perfectly :duck:
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:12 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Oh wait, they may arrest some tiny small business owner hiring 1 or 2 illegals, but some meatpacking plants or farms with 100s of them (not necessarily at a single location)? Wait, I forgot that those are Republican donors (I mean, according to Republican, all Democrats are lazy-ass who just relied on welfare, and Republicans are always the one that are hiring :duck: ).


I'd be interested in the # of latinos working in the meat butchering/processing industry if you have some. Every one I've ever been to here in Kansas has been staffed with white people with the exception of one, and that location was shut down a while back (but they were a pretty small operation and often a last resort for the farmers I buy meat from due to quality issues).

I usually make a trip to meat processing facilities 3 or 4 times a year here, and its always a different place based on who has open slots for processing at that time. A couple times during Deer season and once or twice a year to pick up my beef order direct from farmer. (Seriously if you aren't buying your meat directly from farmers you're doing it wrong. The best tasting meat, you know where it comes from and who is caring for the animals and you get all of the meat for the cost of ground beef - steaks included).

Also, it sounds like maybe we should just raise the wage of all meat packing places to 15$ an hour so that American's will want to work the jobs instead.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:10 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
.

I'd be interested in the # of latinos working in the meat butchering/processing industry if you have some. Every one I've ever been to here in Kansas has been staffed with white people with the exception of one, and that location was shut down a while back (but they were a pretty small operation and often a last resort for the farmers I buy meat from due to quality issues).

I usually make a trip to meat processing facilities 3 or 4 times a year here, and its always a different place based on who has open slots for processing at that time. A couple times during Deer season and once or twice a year to pick up my beef order direct from farmer. (Seriously if you aren't buying your meat directly from farmers you're doing it wrong. The best tasting meat, you know where it comes from and who is caring for the animals and you get all of the meat for the cost of ground beef - steaks included).

Also, it sounds like maybe we should just raise the wage of all meat packing places to 15$ an hour so that American's will want to work the jobs instead.

A. I can't believe someone who identifies as "conservative" (and I don't mean this badly) is advocating for a $15 dollar minimum wage.

B. I don't think it will change who applies for and does a meat packing job. Per these reports the percentage is at some 30%:
https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/20 ... l-america/
https://investigatemidwest.org/2018/06/ ... hallenges/
And this report states that in some areas the hispanic meat packing workforce is 75%: https://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=261
These also have some good information:
https://www.bls.gov/oes/currenT/oes513023.htm
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3401474?se ... b_contents

C. I do very much agree with zakuiv and many others that we just simply need to fine, jail, or put out of business, owners/companies that constantly hire people here illegally. That will end the practice pretty quickly. It will force changes and improvements to system to verify status, and of course there will be an outcry on both sides about how unfair it is (and wouldn't that be proof that it is a good solution? As they say: When both sides are displeased with a solution it usually means it is a good one) and demanding it not be done. I say for businesses first offenses are warnings and fines, and then move up quickly from there.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:34 pm

wingman wrote:
I think it's safe to say a majority of "liberals" are interested in a long-term workable solution to immigration, one that solves for the immigrants you desire the most and a humane way of dealing with those you should succor in their desperate struggle to survive. We all want the first because that's the ticket to long-term global competitiveness..and we do it better than anyone else by offering world-class tertiary education, a great place to raise your kids (if you have the right means which this class of person does at the rate of nearly 100%) and excellent working prospects/choices. This is a shared goal of both Dems and Repubs, even the craziest ones on each side of the aisle.

Where it all falls apart is the latter issue, the "undesirables". Their numbers are actually falling but they remain almost as critical as the first type because they keep the workforce supplied with future tax payers and they perform jobs that keep inflation in check. A small percentage of them engage in criminal activity, and I'd wager that percentage is in line with legal citizens engaged in the same. In my crossings of the United States I have rarely, if ever, seen people that work as hard as low wage immigrants. They are a valuable resource and a key component of our long-term economic health.

The problem as Doc points out is that we have no real or viable pathway to legal immigration except for the desirables heading to US colleges. Even there it can take 10 years of legal limbo with people fearful of traveling back home to visit dying parents and not getting back in, and being forced to remain with their sponsoring employer until their Green Card comes through (6-10 years). That is very shitty and yet the best way into the US for an immigrant. For the other type of immigrants, like those from Latin America, there is literally no viable pathway. This is what needs to change, devising and implementing a process that is humane, attainable and yet with control mechanisms to prevent being "overrun"(this has never happened in our history and this caravan ain't it either). And I also support strong control of the border, like most liberals I bet. But it isn't for fear of starving Hondurans desperate to pick strawberries for my smoothie, I'd rather do it to stem the flow of hard drugs and opioids into the country. There's a thought.

Fix the process and we'll be on our way to fixing the problem. A wall does nothing as evidenced by the fact that a major percentage of meth and cocaine enters the country by tunnels (tunnels that can fit lots of people inside of them). A more realistic solution on that list of "stupid choices" would be to saw ourselves off from Mexico and Canada and float away next to Oahu. I probably shouldn't have said that. One mention on Fox Five Friends and the Trumpster might threaten to sign another EO.
I agree with a lot of this post. Wouldn't it make sense to have a system that allows people to more easily immigrate to this country legally (there would still be some limits, obviously). This would decrease number of people trying to cross illegally and hopefully make it easier to catch the fewer people that are truly bad actors. In many ways, it seems like a classic supply and demand problem to me.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
A. I can't believe someone who identifies as "conservative" (and I don't mean this badly) is advocating for a $15 dollar minimum wage.


I read it as "$15 wage for meatpackers", not necessarily "$15 minimum wage". But yes, increasing minimum wage to $15 would be the "easiest" way to make sure that people actually get those wages.

On the other hand, it's really hard to tell whether that would enticed more "locals" to do those jobs instead of some immigrant labor (legal or not), especially if the economy gets even better. Better economy = more "cushy" jobs that pay decent = less incentives for people to do those "physically demanding" jobs. Just look at the truck industry, for example, no one wants to work those jobs even though the pay are way higher than flipping burgers at McD's.

Ok, if the wage of those physically demanding jobs are almost comparable to your "professional" jobs (i.e. Engineers, Accountants, or even lawyers/doctors), then yes, people will do them (look at the ND oil boom a few years back, for example, some of those workers out there get some ridiculous money). But not every industry can sustain that for a long run.

BTW, many of those Chinese "anchor baby" care less about all these blue-collar stuff anyway, or having to even "leech off the system". They get their US citizenship just so it's easier to, let say, get into a US university or get educated in US in general. But of course, there will always be somebody that argue how those Chinese would be "stealing" a spot (in the university and also later, a good paying professional job) from your (white?) Americans, as if spots in, let say, a university is always finite. (Not to mention, schools like Harvard don't even want more Chinese anyway, preferring even (White) Americans over them :duck: ).

Hispanic "anchor baby" that really grew up in US also are more American than, let say, a Mexican or Honduran or Guatemalan (or wherever...) anyway, are usually hard working (and also fairly educated themselves), and benefit the economy. Oh, and "chain immigration"? You mean those "anchor baby" first have to turn 21 to submit the application for their parents to become permanent resident (Not even a citizen), then, due to "quotas", often have to wait another 5-10 years (on average)? Oh, and if US gov't found out about the parents were ever in US illegally? The application is then rejected 99% of the time. Oh, and then it's another 5 years (IIRC) that those parents can actually APPLY for citizenship, which is, well, about another year before the parents finally become citizen?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:49 pm

Boris Johnson was born of British citizens living in NYC and has been taxed as a US citizen, so there’s that. When the 14th Amendment was ratified there was no such thing as “illegal immigration” as it was open immigration; so it’s not entirely believeable that it declares birthright citizenship except in the SCOTUS Wong Ark case which means it’s reviewable.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:06 pm

casinterest wrote:

For others it is a gift to a newborn child that knows nothing of this rampant xenophobia and racism present in those that would change birthright citizenship. As children grow, they can renounce one of the countries and move on.


Two of my cousins are US citizens through there American dad, one of them due to her husbands wealth and problems arising from double taxation has been trying to renounce her US citizenship for several years, its a long tedious, expensive process.

There’s a few out there who I would consider it a curse rather than a gift.
 
wingman
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:44 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
There’s a few out there who I would consider it a curse rather than a gift.


Very few indeed. No matter the president in charge or the financial policies and law in place, an exceedingly small number of Americans renounce their citizenship each year. I wouldn't argue for or against it really, that's a very personal choice and one made as you allude to almost exclusively based on financial considerations. But the rich have never been shy about conniving with bankers about ever new and creative ways of squirrelling away their millions. Whether they do it running around with British, Spanish or US passports probably doesn't alter their lifestyle one iota.

You should look into becoming a Russian Rob, you're halfway there already.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:08 pm

wingman wrote:
I'd rather do it to stem the flow of hard drugs and opioids into the country. There's a thought.

Fix the process and we'll be on our way to fixing the problem. A wall does nothing as evidenced by the fact that a major percentage of meth and cocaine enters the country by tunnels (tunnels that can fit lots of people inside of them). A more realistic solution on that list of "stupid choices" would be to saw ourselves off from Mexico and Canada and float away next to Oahu. I probably shouldn't have said that. One mention on Fox Five Friends and the Trumpster might threaten to sign another EO.


IMO The best way to solve the drug problem and illegal importation of drugs is to legalise and tax the drugs, make them over the counter, cheap but with better quality then the illegally imported variety. If you take alway illegal distribution then what do the drug importers have to offer, the street dealers won’t get any business, it just disappears.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:09 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Tugger wrote:
A. I can't believe someone who identifies as "conservative" (and I don't mean this badly) is advocating for a $15 dollar minimum wage.


I read it as "$15 wage for meatpackers", not necessarily "$15 minimum wage". But yes, increasing minimum wage to $15 would be the "easiest" way to make sure that people actually get those wages.



100% tongue in cheek. Market forces should dictate wages in an industry which is why wages for low paying jobs have remained flat.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:10 pm

wingman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
There’s a few out there who I would consider it a curse rather than a gift.


Very few indeed. No matter the president in charge or the financial policies and law in place, an exceedingly small number of Americans renounce their citizenship each year. I wouldn't argue for or against it really, that's a very personal choice and one made as you allude to almost exclusively based on financial considerations. But the rich have never been shy about conniving with bankers about ever new and creative ways of squirrelling away their millions. Whether they do it running around with British, Spanish or US passports probably doesn't alter their lifestyle one iota.

You should look into becoming a Russian Rob, you're halfway there already.


Dual kiwi Norwegian when Norway allows dual will be good enough for me.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

IMO The best way to solve the drug problem and illegal importation of drugs is to legalise and tax the drugs, make them over the counter, cheap but with better quality then the illegally imported variety. If you take alway illegal distribution then what do the drug importers have to offer, the street dealers won’t get any business, it just disappears.


Will still have people selling them illegally that bypass the taxes. Also, good luck convincing anyone that we should legalize meth.
 
bhill
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:49 pm

As my Mother would say..."Are you out of your rabbit assed mind!!???" Folks, I do remember my Civics classes, and you do NOT want to open a Constitutional Convention with this lot in power!! THAT is the only way for Trump to pander to his "base"....a EO will not do it..
Carpe Pices
 
Ken777
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:35 pm

bhill wrote:
As my Mother would say..."Are you out of your rabbit assed mind!!???" Folks, I do remember my Civics classes, and you do NOT want to open a Constitutional Convention with this lot in power!! THAT is the only way for Trump to pander to his "base"....a EO will not do it..


Of course Trump would want the convention - first off the block he would want the 2 term restrictions on the Presidency eliminated, or changed to 5 terms. Then he could finally get the race restrictions he wants, except of course for his golf courses & clubs.
 
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ER757
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!

Come on Boris, you're just mailing it in now. If you can't do better than this, your Russian Troll membership card will be revoked.
 
propero
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:16 am

AA747123 never responds, I suspect all posts are sarcasm.
 
propero
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:25 am

Kellyanne’s husband says it’s unconstitutional.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html

If there’s one thing I can hand to Trump (now that my jets have run out), it’s his ability to completely convince “textualists” (as is evidenced by this thread) that “these things” are up for debate (militias?), when we weren’t debating them before.

I suspect the son of a b*tch, as much as I absolutely detest him, will end up being remembered positively.

But there’s an, at best, 50%-50% chance of that. The tail end of that coin is extremely ugly.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:57 pm

propero wrote:
Kellyanne’s husband says it’s unconstitutional.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html

If there’s one thing I can hand to Trump (now that my jets have run out), it’s his ability to completely convince “textualists” (as is evidenced by this thread) that “these things” are up for debate (militias?), when we weren’t debating them before.

I suspect the son of a b*tch, as much as I absolutely detest him, will end up being remembered positively.

But there’s an, at best, 50%-50% chance of that. The tail end of that coin is extremely ugly.


If the textual interpretation of the 2nd amendment can be debated, why can't the rest of the amendment's have their original textual interpretation debated? This was something that has happened throughout our history in actuality. Our founders would often write long form editorials in newspapers debating these very things.

Are you an originalist? Or do you think the constitution is a living breathing document? Can't have it both ways. Which is why I ultimately think his EO is unconstitutional. Though I could see congress making laws or updating existing ones to define what jurisdiction really means I suppose. Which would undoubtedly end up in the SCOTUS.

I'm honestly on the fence on this one. I like the spirit of our current interpretation of birthright citizenship. But what I don't like is those who choose to abuse it by coming here to have a baby and then returning to their home. Admittedly that is quite a small amount of people; but that's still probably not in our best interest. I think there's an easy solution to that though, which would be similar to another country listed earlier. That could include residency requirements after birth, or perhaps you just don't allow BC to people who are here on tourism visas?
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 62
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Boris Johnson was born of British citizens living in NYC and has been taxed as a US citizen, so there’s that. When the 14th Amendment was ratified there was no such thing as “illegal immigration” as it was open immigration; so it’s not entirely believeable that it declares birthright citizenship except in the SCOTUS Wong Ark case which means it’s reviewable.


Could you do us a massive favour and take him back please? :-)
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:14 pm

If he wants to change the constitution or interpret it to only allow those who are here under our terms to have their newborns become citizens, fine, but a definite “no” to mass revoking any citizenships.

Not that he can by executive order.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:54 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
If the textual interpretation of the 2nd amendment can be debated, why can't the rest of the amendment's have their original textual interpretation debated?

But many have stated you can't debate the 2nd amendment.

I realize this is the two opposing sides: The people in favor of "jurisdiction" being interpreted differently in the 14th are likely (though not all) to not believe that including "well regulated" as part of the 2nd is not appropriate. And the same but opposite goes for the other side too.

But here is the fact: If you advocate for "reinterpreting" then you must support it, as your appear to understand, for all amendments and can't arguing against that. You can argue for your position, but not against being open to an changed interpretation.

So if you support a new interpretation of the 14th, then you are open to and accept (if not supporting) that the 2nd and any other amendment, may be interpreted differently in the future.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:07 pm

Tugger wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
If the textual interpretation of the 2nd amendment can be debated, why can't the rest of the amendment's have their original textual interpretation debated?

But many have stated you can't debate the 2nd amendment.

I realize this is the two opposing sides: The people in favor of "jurisdiction" being interpreted differently in the 14th are likely (though not all) to not believe that including "well regulated" as part of the 2nd is not appropriate. And the same but opposite goes for the other side too.

But here is the fact: If you advocate for "reinterpreting" then you must support it, as your appear to understand, for all amendments and can't arguing against that. You can argue for your position, but not against being open to an changed interpretation.

So if you support a new interpretation of the 14th, then you are open to and accept (if not supporting) that the 2nd and any other amendment, may be interpreted differently in the future.

Tugg


Quite right Tugg. I think I tried to address this in my post further along, but I may not have articulated my position quite right.

I do think we should be able to look at supporting documents produced by those who debated the Amendments in the first place - and indeed I believe the Supreme Court Justices would do exactly this. I think it is in *that* context that we should discuss and debate the constitution. Not necessarily a changing or evolving interpretation as we see it in today's world. For that we should address changes via the methods allowed by the constitution.

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