kaitak
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Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:21 pm

I recall one of Trump's less pleasant advisers, Stephen Miller, looking into this a few months back, but assumed nothing would come of it, as it seems to be a no-brainer that it cannot be changed without a constitutional amendment; however, the administration seems to think otherwise and so, apparently, does the President.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/30/poli ... index.html

No other President (in recent times anyway) seems to have had a problem with this. It seems to be DT trying to appeal to his base (and let's face it, this is base politics) with more attacks on immigrants. There is, however, an aspect to this that perhaps has not been considered, which is that thousands of Americans who were born in the US have to file tax returns and in many cases, pay tax; I don't know what kind of tax revenue comes from this, but going down this road would probably make it easier for these people to lose their citizenship and not have to pay tax?

However, the interesting thing will be to see if DT follows this up after the mid terms; his target seems to be these people who came to the US as immigrants and their children therefore acquired US citizenship. This is a problem, because ... ? How many hundreds of thousands have acquired citizenship this way (I did!) ... and how many of these have gone on to be productive members of society, across many different fields. But it's presumably not white people he's concerned about, but Hispanics (as the focus on this alleged caravan and more troops along the border suggests) and other non-whites.

Of course the big question is: can he do it? I am not a constitutional scholar, but it seems to me that if it's written into the Constitution, it cannot simply be amended by executive order and I can't see any judge accepting this argument. I think the true test of this is whether he pursues it after the election; I tend to think not, but one can never tell with this administration.

Where next?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:29 pm

The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Hold my beer. :)
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:30 pm

kaitak wrote:
It seems to be DT trying to appeal to his base (and let's face it, this is base politics)

:checkmark: :redflag: :checkmark:

Tugg
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casinterest
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:34 pm

Nothing more than racism and xenophobia coming from a racist,lying misogynistic coward.
Wickedly Aryan how the GOP forgets the constitution when it comes to base racism and xenophobia.
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:42 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:50 pm

Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:02 pm

No, the base has appealed to the President. He listens to the people. Other Presidents didn't have a problem because they are globalists that don't want our laws to be followed. They want the slow fracturing of a nationalist USA. Trump puts America first.

I would much rather see legislation closing the abuse of the birthright citizenship. But if (more like since) that isn't going to happen with our anti-American, do-nothing Congress, there is a legal angle in the amendment itself that may allow an executive order to stand. We shall see. Unlike EOs by Obama, Bush, etc., this at least has a debate of Constitutionality. I didn't see an outcry then. Nope, not when politics are more important than country and people.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:40 pm

Trump will not be able to end Birthright citizenship with an EO. An injunction would be issued immediately. . 150 years of precedent would stand in his way

For those of you concentrating on the racist revisionism being rallied around "subject to the jurisdiction " .Think about this.

If an illegal alien crashes into your car without insurance, are you going to just let him go because he is from a foreign country? Or would you call the police ?

While in the US, illegal or not, you are subject to the Jurisdiction of the US. When this article was written, no claim was made about the parents of the child ,. Only the child. So when any child is born into the US, they are given birth right citizenship.


The 14th amendment arose from the the civil war and from a need to establish citizenship for those that were property (Go read about Dredd Scott in case you need a refresher). .

Trump and his racist revisionists cannot establish an EO. They need congress to change the Constitution.
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moo
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:42 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.


That reads to me as just applying to babies born to diplomatic persons, not in general, especially as the following unhighlighted line says it applies to every other class of person.

The 14th Amendment however has no such restriction, so the quoted "intention" has no legal weight.

And do you really want a US President cutting swathes through the constitution with a simple executive order...? Think of what can be done if that were the case...
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:51 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.

No, it woudln't. Or are you stating that those here illegally cannot be deported. If they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States then they cannot be acted against. How would that be possible? Those people couldn't be granted citizenship either according to your interpretation, again because they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the USA. Seriously, how do you reconcile that? Go ahead and try.

You are being intentionally defective in your argument or don't understand. And quoting an old article doesn't strengthen your point (aren't you one who can spot "fake news"? That article is).

Tugg
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cledaybuck
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:05 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.
Let's read the text, shall we?
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
As someone who conservatives revere once said "I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says."
Sorry about your luck.
Last edited by cledaybuck on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:07 pm

Well...let see

1. So Constitution Amendment can be changed, literally, with an EO nowaday? Next time, when a Democrats become president, don't cry once they decided to use EO to ban all firearms.
2. Seriously, how in the world are they going to retroactively applied this to many people? Well, more like you can't. So tell somebody that's a citizen the whole life for 50, 60 years and revoked their citizenship? Good luck with that.
3. There are tons of gray area. Umm...let see, non-citizen? What about Green Card Holders? What about people in the US on a, let say, long-term work visa or student visa, at least in the beginning, and maybe become citizens afterward (through various naturalization method)? How does THOSE work? Wait, details and Drumpf never goes with one another.
4. "Subject to the jurisdiction" = "Places where US law apply". That excludes diplomats or ambassadors (due to diplomatic immunity, they're technically not "subject to the jurisdiction of US"), but that's about it. Some tourists in US for "birth tourism"? Well, they're in US, subject to jurisdiction of US, and thus, their children are US citizens, whether one agree with it or not.
5. BTW, "Intended scope" doesn't matter. Is it written IN the constitution? Nope.
6. And seriously, there's a process for constitutional change, it exist for a reason. The US gov't framework also exist for a reason - i.e. to prevent a president from becoming a dictator/tyrant. Drumpf can dream all he wants, but he picked the wrong country to become a dictator, period.

Oh well, more anti-immigration BS, more Stephen Miller BS (Surprise, Surprise...), and of course, Drumpf successfully change people's attention to another topic, while ignoring the fact that there was just some heinous crimes committed by, well, HIS base and people that vote for him.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:22 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.


The text of the amendment says nothing of the sort : All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States...
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:00 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
No, the base has appealed to the President. He listens to the people. Other Presidents didn't have a problem because they are globalists that don't want our laws to be followed. They want the slow fracturing of a nationalist USA. Trump puts America first.

I would much rather see legislation closing the abuse of the birthright citizenship. But if (more like since) that isn't going to happen with our anti-American, do-nothing Congress, there is a legal angle in the amendment itself that may allow an executive order to stand. We shall see. Unlike EOs by Obama, Bush, etc., this at least has a debate of Constitutionality. I didn't see an outcry then. Nope, not when politics are more important than country and people.


Lindsey Graham to Introduce Bill Ending Birthright Citizenship ‘Magnet’ for Illegal Immigration

https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ ... itizenship

There's the Legislation.
Last edited by DIRECTFLT on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:05 pm

kaitak wrote:
I recall one of Trump's less pleasant advisers, Stephen Miller...


I would nominate that for the Understatement of the Year.

kaitak wrote:
It seems to be DT trying to appeal to his base (and let's face it, this is base politics) with more attacks on immigrants.


One week before the mid-terms - in which most politicos expect the GOP to lose the House - yeah, an appeal to stir-up his base and try to get them motivated. What he can't predict is the backlash.

kaitak wrote:
I am not a constitutional scholar, but it seems to me that if it's written into the Constitution, it cannot simply be amended by executive order and I can't see any judge accepting this argument.


:checkmark: Herr Trump is obviously not a Constitutional scholar, either... but he says "they" tell me I can do it. I wonder who the mysterious "they" are... perhaps the voices in his head...

:roll:

casinterest wrote:
Nothing more than racism and xenophobia coming from a racist,lying misogynistic coward.


Here we have a second nomination for Understatement of the Year!
Last edited by alfa164 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:32 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
No, the base has appealed to the President. He listens to the people. Other Presidents didn't have a problem because they are globalists that don't want our laws to be followed. They want the slow fracturing of a nationalist USA. Trump puts America first.

I would much rather see legislation closing the abuse of the birthright citizenship. But if (more like since) that isn't going to happen with our anti-American, do-nothing Congress, there is a legal angle in the amendment itself that may allow an executive order to stand. We shall see. Unlike EOs by Obama, Bush, etc., this at least has a debate of Constitutionality. I didn't see an outcry then. Nope, not when politics are more important than country and people.


Lindsey Graham to Introduce Bill Ending Birthright Citizenship ‘Magnet’ for Illegal Immigration

https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ ... itizenship

There's the Legislation.

The Legislation still can't go against the constitution. The legislation will fail in court.

If passed it would be stayed immediately at the first lawsuit until the case completes.

This is all election fodder to allow the Republican's to say "Don't let the Dems get a majority or look what we can't do!"

So as a thought experiment, can we also pass legislation that allows ownership only for those that are part of a "well regulated militia"?

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dmg626
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:34 pm

About time for this to happen, very controversial and should be brought to the courts for clarification
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:37 pm

dmg626 wrote:
About time for this to happen, very controversial and should be brought to the courts for clarification


I am guessing the "dmg" in your name stands for "demagogue"... ;)
 
dmg626
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:39 pm

alfa164 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
About time for this to happen, very controversial and should be brought to the courts for clarification


I am guessing the "dmg" in your name stands for "demagogue"... ;)


Haha, no, but very clever
 
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stl07
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:11 pm

But the OE goes beyond Illegal immigration and extends to other people legally here that are not citizens like green card holders....
 
seb146
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:20 pm

Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The court challenge could go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


I wouldn't count on it. Not with the installation of extremist right wing judges.

Another interesting point is, for eight years, all we heard from the right was how Obama was ignoring and shredding the Constitution. When THEIR OWN actually does all of that, their attitude is "cool!"
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NIKV69
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:49 am

I am not a fan of ending birthright citizenship. Couldn't be worse timing by Trump. He was making gains in the midterms why do this? Very foolish. He just doesn't listen to anyone.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:07 am

Tugger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
No, the base has appealed to the President. He listens to the people. Other Presidents didn't have a problem because they are globalists that don't want our laws to be followed. They want the slow fracturing of a nationalist USA. Trump puts America first.

I would much rather see legislation closing the abuse of the birthright citizenship. But if (more like since) that isn't going to happen with our anti-American, do-nothing Congress, there is a legal angle in the amendment itself that may allow an executive order to stand. We shall see. Unlike EOs by Obama, Bush, etc., this at least has a debate of Constitutionality. I didn't see an outcry then. Nope, not when politics are more important than country and people.


Lindsey Graham to Introduce Bill Ending Birthright Citizenship ‘Magnet’ for Illegal Immigration

https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ ... itizenship

There's the Legislation.

The Legislation still can't go against the constitution. The legislation will fail in court.

If passed it would be stayed immediately at the first lawsuit until the case completes.

This is all election fodder to allow the Republican's to say "Don't let the Dems get a majority or look what we can't do!"

So as a thought experiment, can we also pass legislation that allows ownership only for those that are part of a "well regulated militia"?

Tugg


Thought experiment --- ownership?? Why yes... ownership of land as a requirement to Vote. Yes, let's try that experiment ! ! :checkmark:
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alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:22 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I am not a fan of ending birthright citizenship. Couldn't be worse timing by Trump. He was making gains in the midterms why do this? Very foolish. He just doesn't listen to anyone.


Here is David Frum (an actual Conservative, and no fan of Trump) with his take on it:

“Trump's birthright citizenship vaporware is intended to prod cable TV into discussing something exciting to him, not boring stuff like pre-existing conditions and why would-be murderers are allowed to amass arsenals that could equip the police department of a small town,” Frum tweeted. “Or the worst month on world stock markets since 2009.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/ ... age-949519

And, true to Trump's nature, he had to throw in a few (falsehoods) along with the red meat...

:roll:

addendum: The Onion has a similar take; it is amazing that, with this current administration, it is hard to tell what is real and what is satire:

https://politics.theonion.com/trump-cla ... 1830106306

and:

https://politics.theonion.com/trump-tur ... 1830109538
Last edited by alfa164 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FreequentFlier
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 am

kaitak wrote:
I recall one of Trump's less pleasant advisers, Stephen Miller, looking into this a few months back, but assumed nothing would come of it, as it seems to be a no-brainer that it cannot be changed without a constitutional amendment; however, the administration seems to think otherwise and so, apparently, does the President.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/30/poli ... index.html

No other President (in recent times anyway) seems to have had a problem with this. It seems to be DT trying to appeal to his base (and let's face it, this is base politics) with more attacks on immigrants. There is, however, an aspect to this that perhaps has not been considered, which is that thousands of Americans who were born in the US have to file tax returns and in many cases, pay tax; I don't know what kind of tax revenue comes from this, but going down this road would probably make it easier for these people to lose their citizenship and not have to pay tax?

However, the interesting thing will be to see if DT follows this up after the mid terms; his target seems to be these people who came to the US as immigrants and their children therefore acquired US citizenship. This is a problem, because ... ? How many hundreds of thousands have acquired citizenship this way (I did!) ... and how many of these have gone on to be productive members of society, across many different fields. But it's presumably not white people he's concerned about, but Hispanics (as the focus on this alleged caravan and more troops along the border suggests) and other non-whites.

Of course the big question is: can he do it? I am not a constitutional scholar, but it seems to me that if it's written into the Constitution, it cannot simply be amended by executive order and I can't see any judge accepting this argument. I think the true test of this is whether he pursues it after the election; I tend to think not, but one can never tell with this administration.

Where next?


No he can’t do it, at least not legally. Even if he tried, the Supreme Court would throw it out as it’s not Constitutional.

These wide sweeping executive orders are exactly the kind of thing Republicans (rightfully) ran against Obama on, and exactly what they should work against today. We have a legislative branch for a reason and the Presidency is not a monarchy.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:55 am

moo wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.


That reads to me as just applying to babies born to diplomatic persons, not in general, especially as the following unhighlighted line says it applies to every other class of person.

The 14th Amendment however has no such restriction, so the quoted "intention" has no legal weight.

And do you really want a US President cutting swathes through the constitution with a simple executive order...? Think of what can be done if that were the case...


Mark Levin, who knows something about legal matters, discussed this in 2015:

https://youtu.be/RGCDgh8XrVw

https://youtu.be/uz65EruVCKI

You don't have to agree with Mark, but you can listen to his arguments and decide for yourself.
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alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
[Mark Levin, who knows something about legal matters, discussed this in 2015:


Surely you jest. :lol: Levin is a far right-wing crackpot; he has all the gravitas of Judge Judy, combined with being a Faux News conspiracy theorist. Please; try to find some credible Constitution attorney(s), if you expect to have any reasonable chance of convincing anyone of your position.
Last edited by alfa164 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:03 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Yes, let's try that experiment ! ! :checkmark:

And of course you avoided the question But is to be expected since you can't have an effective response.

Tugg
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:21 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
You don't have to agree with Mark, but you can listen to his arguments and decide for yourself.

Yeah, I have listened to him (grating) and to others that are far more coherent and less grating: https://www.14thamendment.us/info/john_ ... cript.html

But still, you are turning over the USA's sovereign power to other nations with your /their take.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
seb146
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:25 am

As we found out under the Obama administration, executive orders are not law. However, I fear Republicans will treat this as law.
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:08 am

Everyone always starts attacking the administration. But I, for one, as a US citizen, wouldn't mind having a discussion about this law. Whichever way it ends up going, I think it's healthy to bring up and discuss. Why are people pro/against birthright citizenship? The world operates very differently these days when compared to the times when the Constitution was drafted, change comes with the times. Most countries don't offer birthright citizenship, but yet when we bring this up in the US, it automatically gets labeled as hate, anti-immigration and so forth. What about actually seeing some data on the abuse of this law? I would love to see the numbers of how many people travel to the US during pregnancy for this exact reason.

This country has become so sensitive and butt-hurt about almost every issue, regardless of which President. It's almost impossible to have a healthy discussion, scary times.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:54 am

Birthright citizenship is an abomination that needs to end asap.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:28 am

Notice that the Russians and the Trumpistas are in lockstep again.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:12 pm

He is just trying to energize his voter base a week before mid-terms. The more coverage this new gets, the high likelihood of his base showing up to vote.
 
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angusjt
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:09 pm

I'm not from the states and have only just caught on to this debate but can anyone elaborate on how ending birthright citizenship would be "racist" as some people are claiming?

Virtually every country outside the America's has either abolished or has never recognized BC, including my country, Australia.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:24 pm

angusjt wrote:
I'm not from the states and have only just caught on to this debate but can anyone elaborate on how ending birthright citizenship would be "racist" as some people are claiming?

Virtually every country outside the America's has either abolished or has never recognized BC, including my country, Australia.


mens rea.... sort of.

Whatever citizenship policy you have is just the policy you have. Changing a policy can still be racist, even if the policy itself isn´t, if you are doing it primarily to target a specific ethnicity/ethnicities, and prevent them from gaining citizenship for them/their children.

So if the change happens within a broad effort to align your citizenship law with much of the rest of the world it is ok, but the exact same policy would be racists if you do it because it predominantly effects Asians or Latinos, and alignment is just a coincidence.

best regards
Thomas
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Tugger
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:32 pm

angusjt wrote:
I'm not from the states and have only just caught on to this debate but can anyone elaborate on how ending birthright citizenship would be "racist" as some people are claiming?

Virtually every country outside the America's has either abolished or has never recognized BC, including my country, Australia.

By itself a change to birthright citizenship isn't racist. But the motivation behind the change could be due to racist derived concerns of the "dilution" of the current racial make up of the nation with babies born of foreign origin families.

A common belief is that Mexicans come to America just to have an anchor baby, to have their babies born in America and therefore be an American citizen with all the rights and benefits that naturally accrue with that. This also extends to any foreign origin mother/family, that has not confirmed allegiance the the United States of America through naturalization or the process to live in the USA legally, that has a child born here.

So there are two elements in this debate: The real debate is whether birthright citizenship is appropriate or needs to change, the other is where the people wanting the change have the intent to limit "foreign" influence and "less desirable" races. No one wants to be "on the side of the racists" and anyone who is doing for racial and "national identity" reasons generally won't admit to it. So it can be tougher to support. Especially since birthright citizenship has, in my opinion at least, not been shown to be harmful to the nation overall.


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:42 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I am not a fan of ending birthright citizenship. Couldn't be worse timing by Trump. He was making gains in the midterms why do this? Very foolish. He just doesn't listen to anyone.


Nah, he certainly listen to Faux & Friends, Stephen Miller (Who I'll say is the person behind this BS, either him or Steve King), and of course, Ivanka.

angusjt wrote:
Virtually every country outside the America's has either abolished or has never recognized BC, including my country, Australia.


And there are (legal) methods to abolish birthright citizenship in US also (i.e. amending 14th Amendment). Using an Executive Order to do so is not the correct method.

And who cares if Australia doesn't have such law? Australia is Australia, it can write their own law. US can have its own law. Sometimes being different is what make America "great" anyway, not all these BS that Drumpf sprout (Oh, and where are the manufacturing jobs? Last I check companies maybe getting cautious in expanding in mainland China right now, but all they're doing is looking at alternatives like Vietnam or Bangladesh or India).

P.S. It's not just Chinese that go to California (or Hawaii or wherever), there are all those Russians/Ukrainians in Miami also (As somebody else already mentioned). Is it a "racist" change, partially yes, partially no on paper. But downright saying "anchor baby just mooch off the system"? That's the f**king BS part, but very common belief among those "right" wing people who don't know crap other than what they hear on Faux or read somewhere online (as long as it agree with their view).
 
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OA412
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:56 pm

What exactly is this supposed legal angle in the 14th that would allow an Executive Order to override the Constitution?
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alfa164
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:16 pm

OA412 wrote:
What exactly is this supposed legal angle in the 14th that would allow an Executive Order to override the Constitution?


I don't think there is one. It is a overt political attempt to take the focus off the other issues in the mid-term election - health care, an unpopular tax cut for the rich, the proliferation of guns, and the fall of the stock market - and toss some "red meat" into the discussion, to stir up the right-wing base of voters.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:31 pm

I’m a Mexican American; my parents are from the South, became legal residents, and met here. I’m honestly a bit nervous about this, even though I’ve researched a bit and have read that those born here from permanent (non citizen) residents are definitely citizens according to the 14th, but with Trump anything is possible. I don’t think he’d be going against citizens of “legal residents” unless he comes up with more BS and fake crap (or real crap).

Regarding this, first and foremost, this is nothing but another attack, something he likes to do more than anything and puts paramount over actually doing anything to help struggling Americans in this country. We’re the only if not one of few (developed) countries without healthcare or paid maternity leave guaranteed to those who need it, but it’s suddenly INFURIATING that we let anyone born here become a citizen snd have to follow our laws.

I’m also calling total BS on Cruz for saying that birthright citizenship somehow encourages crime.... what the eff.

But I will say, however, that while I’m not ok with a mass-revoking of people’s citizenships, I’d have less of an issue if we amended the constitution to make clear that people must at least be a resident or at least have some sort of right here (if they're on a work visa) for their child born to be a citizen here in the future, sort of similar to diplomats.

I know I’d totally be against any action if my parents didn’t come here the right way. The constitution makes clear anyone born here (aside from foreign diplomats or other related officials) is a citizen otherwise.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Of course. Where the EO would be struck down in all likelihood.

Tugg


Image

Where the EO would be upheld in all likelihood.

Fixed that for you.


The text of the amendment says nothing of the sort : All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States...

Precedent was established in US v Wong Kim Ark in one of the early challenges to this provision in the 14th Amendment. He was a child born in the US to Chinese nationals, all of whom went to China while Wong Kim Ark was young. He returned as a teenager to work, but following a visit to China, was denied entry into the US. The case was thought by those against this provision that the Supreme Court would rule against Wong Kim Ark, and that it would more narrowly define who would be eligible for citizenship at birth. The court found in favor of Wong Kim Ark in a 6-2 decision based purely on the interpretation of the text in the constitution.

The 14th amendment does not make the distinction between children born to foreign citizens on American soil (jus soli) and those born on US soil inheriting citizenship from a parent by another country (jus sanguinis). Dissenters argue the latter — that a child born on US soil takes the citizenship of the birth parents — but given the lack of clarification in the text itself, the former must be assumed, and has been affirmed by precedent. It has withstood multiple legal challenges since the Wong Kim Ark decision in 1898.

The writings of the man that wrote the provision aren't relevant; what is relevant in strict constitutional law is what exists in the text. Just as a reminder, the late conservative Justice Scalia was an originalist and textualist in every sense of the terms, and he would not have interpreted the 14th amendment any differently than the set precedent. It is highly unlikely that that most of the conservative justices currently on the bench would interpret it differently.

https://www.loc.gov/item/usrep169649/

Regardless of individual sentiment, the issue will only be changed through a constitutional amendment. An EO would be up against more than a century of precedent.
 
AA747123
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:40 pm

Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!
 
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:42 pm

Many of these Spanish speaking "birthright citizens" and those who were brought here as young children have joined the Armed Forces because they were told they could secure citizenship for themselves. After a year of deportations, that loophole was finally closed.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... portation/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartande ... 36b7ea3932

There are also many Spanish speaking LEGAL citizens who are worried about this. Many were closely watched by MAGA types after the shooting in San Francisco. I fear for these LEGAL citizens if the orange king decides to shred the Constitution.
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seb146
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:45 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!


The 9/11 terrorists were on expired student visas. The other terrorists (Las Vegas, Orlando, San Burnardino, Aurora, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Pittsburgh, etc.) are all American. Don't let facts get in the way.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:01 pm

OA412 wrote:
What exactly is this supposed legal angle in the 14th that would allow an Executive Order to override the Constitution?


Kavanaugh is the only legal angle I can think of.

EO will be quashed by more than one judge in a couple of hours after signing, Slowly it will make its way to SCOTUS, where Trump might be thinking he will prevail. But it will be 8-1 vote.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:03 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Trump is doing the right thing here. Some one could be born here, have their citizenship. Go back to god knows where, and become a dangerous terrorist and come back and be a threat to our country legally. This is a matter of national security and Trump once again has the courage to stand up to the left and stop this. Trump is a true blessing from our Lord!


Umm...find me one "anchor baby" that have committed "terror attack". Wait, you can't. (They're either US citizen born in US to US citizens, or naturalized citizens).

Oh well, nothing but finding more scapegoats for all of US problems IMO. Again, where ARE the manufacturing jobs? Where is the "great" Healthcare Plan? What's the solution of crime problems in US? Oh, don't get me started on the deficit that THEY created (by lowering tax) and all of a sudden, US gov't has no money? Hack, what about that wall that Mexico is suppose to pay for (and they dared to ask for money from MY pocket as a US taxpayer?). Wait, Drumpf got nothing to run on other than scapegoating, fearmongering, and more divisions. Anything to distract the media from talking about real problems (and he's VERY successful at that).

CarlosSi wrote:
I’m a Mexican American; my parents are from the South, became legal residents, and met here. I’m honestly a bit nervous about this, even though I’ve researched a bit and have read that those born here from permanent (non citizen) residents are definitely citizens according to the 14th, but with Trump anything is possible. I don’t think he’d be going against citizens of “legal residents” unless he comes up with more BS and fake crap (or real crap).


Knowing Drumpf, there's no such thing as "BS" or "predictable". He's anything but.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:10 pm

Maybe the executive order is to make all illegal immigrants "diplomats", therefore ending birthright citizenship? :duck:


Of course I'm not serious but it actually got me thinking, what if the intent is not to "end birthright citizenship by blatantly going against the 14th Amendment" but rather to somehow define certain groups in such a way where it wouldn't apply to them? Does such a loophole exist? Make it so they're not subject to our jurisdiction through some technical language?

Of course, it just seems like a way to mobilze the base but who knows
 
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OA412
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:14 pm

alfa164 wrote:
OA412 wrote:
What exactly is this supposed legal angle in the 14th that would allow an Executive Order to override the Constitution?


I don't think there is one. It is a overt political attempt to take the focus off the other issues in the mid-term election - health care, an unpopular tax cut for the rich, the proliferation of guns, and the fall of the stock market - and toss some "red meat" into the discussion, to stir up the right-wing base of voters.

Oh I know. I'm just trying to understand why people believe there's something in the Amendment that would allow an EO to stand.
dtw2hyd wrote:
OA412 wrote:
What exactly is this supposed legal angle in the 14th that would allow an Executive Order to override the Constitution?


Kavanaugh is the only legal angle I can think of.

EO will be quashed by more than one judge in a couple of hours after signing, Slowly it will make its way to SCOTUS, where Trump might be thinking he will prevail. But it will be 8-1 vote.

Perhaps that's it. I agree the legal challenges will be immediate.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe the executive order is to make all illegal immigrants "diplomats", therefore ending birthright citizenship? :duck:


Of course I'm not serious but it actually got me thinking, what if the intent is not to "end birthright citizenship by blatantly going against the 14th Amendment" but rather to somehow define certain groups in such a way where it wouldn't apply to them? Does such a loophole exist? Make it so they're not subject to our jurisdiction through some technical language?

Of course, it just seems like a way to mobilze the base but who knows

Woah, talk about a blast from the past. Haven't seen you around here forever! :wave:
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Trump seeks to end birthright citizenship

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:27 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe the executive order is to make all illegal immigrants "diplomats", therefore ending birthright citizenship?


But that doesn't do anything to the "birth tourism", though. It's one thing to argue that illegal immigrants are not "under jurisdiction" (Which, well, is not even true), it's another thing to argue that people on nonimmigrant visa to US are not "under jurisdiction" of US (Then I guess they can break whatever laws they want?).

And actually, with diplomatic immunity, that means those so-call "illegal immigrants" cannot be deport by US. Be careful of what you wish for :duck:

P.S. And Drumpf is already saying "let the supreme court decide" anyway, just like what everyone predicted. But wait, only yesterday that he was arguing that he can literally use a EO to take away the citizenship rights.

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