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Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:08 am

President Donald Trump congratulated Jair Bolsonaro on Monday, the newly elected conservative president of Brazil, and recognized his historic victory.

“We agreed that Brazil and the United States will work closely together on Trade, Military and everything else!” Trump said. “Excellent call, wished him congrats!”

Bolsonaro won his election on Sunday with more than 55 percent of the vote, defeating his socialist opponent Fernando Haddad.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018 ... bolsonaro/

Brazil needs to get it's house in order. Too many people suffering there.
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WarRI1
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:09 am

Of course he would, he worships state authority just like this man does, going to to bring in Military . Sound familiar?
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Aesma
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:30 am

I thought Trump was against free trade ? It's hard to follow.

Anyway I wouldn't label Bolsonaro a conservative, unless you like things like misogyny and racism associated with conservatism. Wait, you're a Trump supporter, never mind.

Brazil has a corruption problem (like many other countries), however I don't trust him one bit to tackle the issue. He plans to sell off public companies like Petrobras, I fully expect his friends to benefit from this, while the common man of the street will see no benefit from it.

Let's hope he at least leaves (innocent) opponents and journalists alone.
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WarRI1
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:35 am

Aesma wrote:
I thought Trump was against free trade ? It's hard to follow.

Anyway I wouldn't label Bolsonaro a conservative, unless you like things like misogyny and racism associated with conservatism. Wait, you're a Trump supporter, never mind.

Brazil has a corruption problem (like many other countries), however I don't trust him one bit to tackle the issue. He plans to sell off public companies like Petrobras, I fully expect his friends to benefit from this, while the common man of the street will see no benefit from it.

Let's hope he at least leaves (innocent) opponents and journalists alone.



Like watching a bad movie over and over and over, especially in South America. We will support him though, no problem for us as usual when it comes to corruption and money making.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:01 am

Jair Bolsonaro = a populist. His biggest trademark seems to be he hasn't got any bribery charges on his person. We will see if he can have a Precendentcy without corruption. My take is that many freedoms will be restricted, many rights of LGTB's will be squashed and he will be charged with corruption. In four years time, his electorate will be disappointed because nothing is done for the lower classes.
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FreequentFlier
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:40 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I thought Trump was against free trade ? It's hard to follow.

Anyway I wouldn't label Bolsonaro a conservative, unless you like things like misogyny and racism associated with conservatism. Wait, you're a Trump supporter, never mind.

Brazil has a corruption problem (like many other countries), however I don't trust him one bit to tackle the issue. He plans to sell off public companies like Petrobras, I fully expect his friends to benefit from this, while the common man of the street will see no benefit from it.

Let's hope he at least leaves (innocent) opponents and journalists alone.



Like watching a bad movie over and over and over, especially in South America. We will support him though, no problem for us as usual when it comes to corruption and money making.


The left seems to be continually “surprised” by recent world developments, but that’s only because they continually don’t learn any lessons from them.

If this forum is any indication, the left will continue to be willfully stupid and there be many more Bolsonaros in the world’s future.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:53 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
The left seems to be continually “surprised” by recent world developments, but that’s only because they continually don’t learn any lessons from them.

If this forum is any indication, the left will continue to be willfully stupid and there be many more Bolsonaros in the world’s future.


The left ain't no picnic, but the right aren't any better.

This is just another case of a populist leader bamboozling his citizens to support him even though the facts says otherwise. Happens in America, happens in Mexico, happens in the UK, even happens in my own country, Malaysia.

Maybe people are just getting dumber.
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WarRI1
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:53 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I thought Trump was against free trade ? It's hard to follow.

Anyway I wouldn't label Bolsonaro a conservative, unless you like things like misogyny and racism associated with conservatism. Wait, you're a Trump supporter, never mind.

Brazil has a corruption problem (like many other countries), however I don't trust him one bit to tackle the issue. He plans to sell off public companies like Petrobras, I fully expect his friends to benefit from this, while the common man of the street will see no benefit from it.

Let's hope he at least leaves (innocent) opponents and journalists alone.



Like watching a bad movie over and over and over, especially in South America. We will support him though, no problem for us as usual when it comes to corruption and money making.


The left seems to be continually “surprised” by recent world developments, but that’s only because they continually don’t learn any lessons from them.

If this forum is any indication, the left will continue to be willfully stupid and there be many more Bolsonaros in the world’s future.




Such words of wisdom. Try reading some history before the Orange man debacle era. You will see in the history of the world such men are common here there and everywhere. We now have a fan of such men here in office, so do not try to blame anybody but the men of such ilk. Admirers of powerful governments not supported by the people. I could name a ton of them, but why bother, you read about them for a change. :banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
FreequentFlier
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:13 am

WarRI1 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:


Like watching a bad movie over and over and over, especially in South America. We will support him though, no problem for us as usual when it comes to corruption and money making.


The left seems to be continually “surprised” by recent world developments, but that’s only because they continually don’t learn any lessons from them.

If this forum is any indication, the left will continue to be willfully stupid and there be many more Bolsonaros in the world’s future.




Such words of wisdom. Try reading some history before the Orange man debacle era. You will see in the history of the world such men are common here there and everywhere. We now have a fan of such men here in office, so do not try to blame anybody but the men of such ilk. Admirers of powerful governments not supported by the people. I could name a ton of them, but why bother, you read about them for a change. :banghead:


Bolsonaro was elected by 56% of the Brazilian electorate. A wise liberal opposition might wonder why that is and adjust accordingly. A dumb left would insist it was a Russian conspiracy, or that all 56% were racist, or that they were bamboozled and were too stupid to know better. They would say that they themselves should change literally nothing about their own platform, or their tone, or their arrogance, or their policies.

This forum is a beautiful testament to which one of those two versions of the left we have in our modern world. I’ll let you take a guess as to which one that is.

Enjoy the continued surprises WarRI1.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:36 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

The left seems to be continually “surprised” by recent world developments, but that’s only because they continually don’t learn any lessons from them.

If this forum is any indication, the left will continue to be willfully stupid and there be many more Bolsonaros in the world’s future.




Such words of wisdom. Try reading some history before the Orange man debacle era. You will see in the history of the world such men are common here there and everywhere. We now have a fan of such men here in office, so do not try to blame anybody but the men of such ilk. Admirers of powerful governments not supported by the people. I could name a ton of them, but why bother, you read about them for a change. :banghead:


Bolsonaro was elected by 56% of the Brazilian electorate. A wise liberal opposition might wonder why that is and adjust accordingly. A dumb left would insist it was a Russian conspiracy, or that all 56% were racist, or that they were bamboozled and were too stupid to know better. They would say that they themselves should change literally nothing about their own platform, or their tone, or their arrogance, or their policies.

This forum is a beautiful testament to which one of those two versions of the left we have in our modern world. I’ll let you take a guess as to which one that is.

Enjoy the continued surprises WarRI1.

:

Read the history of South America politics, quite sad. I would not recommenced you use those politics to praise the Orange man again. Not wise, as he is not, nor the South Americans who suffer by their own habits, then they flee here because of their politics. :banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
FreequentFlier
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:40 am

WarRI1 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:



Such words of wisdom. Try reading some history before the Orange man debacle era. You will see in the history of the world such men are common here there and everywhere. We now have a fan of such men here in office, so do not try to blame anybody but the men of such ilk. Admirers of powerful governments not supported by the people. I could name a ton of them, but why bother, you read about them for a change. :banghead:


Bolsonaro was elected by 56% of the Brazilian electorate. A wise liberal opposition might wonder why that is and adjust accordingly. A dumb left would insist it was a Russian conspiracy, or that all 56% were racist, or that they were bamboozled and were too stupid to know better. They would say that they themselves should change literally nothing about their own platform, or their tone, or their arrogance, or their policies.

This forum is a beautiful testament to which one of those two versions of the left we have in our modern world. I’ll let you take a guess as to which one that is.

Enjoy the continued surprises WarRI1.

:

Read the history of South America politics, quite sad. I would not recommenced you use those politics to praise the Orange man again. Not wise, as he is not, nor the South Americans who suffer by their own habits, then they flee here because of their politics. :banghead:


You seem to be doing everything EXCEPT be at least slightly introspective as to why far right candidates keep winning elections. That’s ok, that makes you no different from literally every other stupid, arrogant leftist on this forum. Anyways, don’t take my word for it. Consider listening to Glenn Greenwald, not exactly anyone’s idea of a right winger.

https://youtu.be/rq2pvabDN7c

Or you know, don’t. Doesn’t make much of a difference to me. Seems like that whole “right side of history” is starting to look more like the far right side of history.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:41 am

How silly is it that this guys second name is seriously "Messias".

Anyhow, this is certainly a dangerous guy. But his election has to be judged in the context of the state of things in Brazil. The PT has ruined the country and doubled down on the swampy nature of the Brazilian government, which was quite a feat considering it was always corrupt to the bone. The only reason people felt they had no choice but vote for Bolsonaro is that Lula and Dilma have failed the country miserably.

Bolsonaro will not solve the corruption problem. The people he has named for important positions are just business as usual. But he is the best chance Brazil has to crack down on the street voilence and crime, which is direly needed. I just hope that his anti-women, anti-gay and anti-indigenous rhetorics are just that, rhetorics. If land owners get a free hand at killing indigenous people that would be an incredible crime.

Anyway, long story short: People like Bolsonaro get elected because what the other side has to offer is so unimaginably intolerable. The same thing is why Trump was elected, why Brexit is happening and why Angela Merkel is on her way out. The neo-liberal elite has gone too far and people are rejecting them left, right and center.
 
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:51 pm

The alternative to this guy, PT, has to be the most corrupt political party in history, anywhere, ever - the scale of their malfeasance is just unimaginable for anyone who does not follow Brazilian politics closely. Of course, anyone running to the right of them would be called fascists / Nazis / etc., so, same as in the U.S., those words just lost any meaning. It remains to be seen if the opposition in Brazil will go full retard as the Democrats in the U.S. have, or act more rationally and constructively.
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bgm
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:56 pm

Pyrex wrote:
The alternative to this guy, PT, has to be the most corrupt political party in history, anywhere, ever - the scale of their malfeasance is just unimaginable for anyone who does not follow Brazilian politics closely. Of course, anyone running to the right of them would be called fascists / Nazis / etc., so, same as in the U.S., those words just lost any meaning. It remains to be seen if the opposition in Brazil will go full retard as the Democrats in the U.S. have, or act more rationally and constructively.


The only people that have gone 'full retard' in the US are Trump and GOP. Thanks for playing.
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cpd
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:07 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

Bolsonaro was elected by 56% of the Brazilian electorate. A wise liberal opposition might wonder why that is and adjust accordingly. A dumb left would insist it was a Russian conspiracy, or that all 56% were racist, or that they were bamboozled and were too stupid to know better. They would say that they themselves should change literally nothing about their own platform, or their tone, or their arrogance, or their policies.

This forum is a beautiful testament to which one of those two versions of the left we have in our modern world. I’ll let you take a guess as to which one that is.

Enjoy the continued surprises WarRI1.

:

Read the history of South America politics, quite sad. I would not recommenced you use those politics to praise the Orange man again. Not wise, as he is not, nor the South Americans who suffer by their own habits, then they flee here because of their politics. :banghead:


You seem to be doing everything EXCEPT be at least slightly introspective as to why far right candidates keep winning elections. That’s ok, that makes you no different from literally every other stupid, arrogant leftist on this forum. Anyways, don’t take my word for it. Consider listening to Glenn Greenwald, not exactly anyone’s idea of a right winger.

https://youtu.be/rq2pvabDN7c

Or you know, don’t. Doesn’t make much of a difference to me. Seems like that whole “right side of history” is starting to look more like the far right side of history.



Yet in other elections elsewhere in the world right wing candidates are losing to moderate independents? So how does that compute with your theories?

The right wingers will be all swept out when the voters decide they are just as useless and inept as all the other politicians. Politicians are hated, simple as that.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:28 pm

Not sure I would call him a populist in the Western term. If you look at the votes by city/state, Bolsonaro won in the wealthiest and most educated cities. For instance 60% in Sao Paulo (city), 66% in Rio and 70% in Brasilia.

https://especiais.gazetadopovo.com.br/e ... os-2turno/

So very different than Trump and the US at least in sociodemographic terms.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:56 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

Bolsonaro was elected by 56% of the Brazilian electorate. A wise liberal opposition might wonder why that is and adjust accordingly. A dumb left would insist it was a Russian conspiracy, or that all 56% were racist, or that they were bamboozled and were too stupid to know better. They would say that they themselves should change literally nothing about their own platform, or their tone, or their arrogance, or their policies.

This forum is a beautiful testament to which one of those two versions of the left we have in our modern world. I’ll let you take a guess as to which one that is.

Enjoy the continued surprises WarRI1.

:

Read the history of South America politics, quite sad. I would not recommenced you use those politics to praise the Orange man again. Not wise, as he is not, nor the South Americans who suffer by their own habits, then they flee here because of their politics. :banghead:


You seem to be doing everything EXCEPT be at least slightly introspective as to why far right candidates keep winning elections. That’s ok, that makes you no different from literally every other stupid, arrogant leftist on this forum. Anyways, don’t take my word for it. Consider listening to Glenn Greenwald, not exactly anyone’s idea of a right winger.

https://youtu.be/rq2pvabDN7c

Or you know, don’t. Doesn’t make much of a difference to me. Seems like that whole “right side of history” is starting to look more like the far right side of history.



I guess when one does not have a good argument to put forth in a Forum, one should revert to insults to cover ones shortcomings, a classic Orange man tactic, so from you it does not surprise. :bigmouth:
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Dieuwer
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:06 pm

So, what's the issue with Brazil to begin with? How come that corruption and economic mismanagement keeps going on and on and on for decades?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:56 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So, what's the issue with Brazil to begin with? How come that corruption and economic mismanagement keeps going on and on and on for decades?


The same as everywhere south of the Rio Grande, most of those countries could be, and Argentina once was, power houses. But, bad political decisions driven by envy (I’ll take from the rich and give to you) have sunk them.

GF
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:35 pm

My wife grew up in Brazil when the military was in power and during their tenure crime and violence was much lower than it is currently. She is looking to the return of military style law and order in Brazil.
 
Derico
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:25 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
So, what's the issue with Brazil to begin with? How come that corruption and economic mismanagement keeps going on and on and on for decades?


The same as everywhere south of the Rio Grande, most of those countries could be, and Argentina once was, power houses. But, bad political decisions driven by envy (I’ll take from the rich and give to you) have sunk them.

GF


No.

You likely don't know enough to give an informed view. Starting with the "everywhere south of" line. Overgeneralization, bad political decisions don't miraculously end to the north of your line. In fact, the US in almost every metric has declined the most in the hemisphere in the last 60 years. So bad policies certainly played a huge role there.

Just a few major ones: share of world GDP down to 19% by 2020 from 50% in the mid-20th century.-Inequality gap from 38 family incomes to one rich person at the time of moon landings, to 450 family incomes today, the US GINI showing little difference with many southern neighbors. American life expentency has stalled since 2000 and may be declining from various factors, all other countries except Venezuela, Sub Saharan Africa, and Syria have advanced. American average male height has stalled. In education scores, the US has fallen 35 spots in the last 50 years. These cannot be statistical artifacts or mere fluke.

And life in Chile, Uruguay, Costa Rica, and yes even Argentina (during the upswings of our 5 year boom-bust cycles), are not that radically different from many of the developed countries. Except for the visible entrenched pockets of deep poverty, in Argentina's case it has been most generous nation in the world in recent decades towards poor immigrants.
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Pyrex
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:47 am

bgm wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
The alternative to this guy, PT, has to be the most corrupt political party in history, anywhere, ever - the scale of their malfeasance is just unimaginable for anyone who does not follow Brazilian politics closely. Of course, anyone running to the right of them would be called fascists / Nazis / etc., so, same as in the U.S., those words just lost any meaning. It remains to be seen if the opposition in Brazil will go full retard as the Democrats in the U.S. have, or act more rationally and constructively.


The only people that have gone 'full retard' in the US are Trump and GOP. Thanks for playing.


Yes, because it clearly has been the Republicans that engaged in all sorts of hijinks to prevent him from even getting into power (trying to convince electoral college members to not uphold their duties, to have Congress not certify the results of the Electoral College, engage in Designated Survivor fantasies), have pursued witch-hunts while in power that only exposed the scale of their malfeasance even before the elections, tried to achieve a majority in Congress by shooting up the Congressional baseball team and beating the crap out of Senators mowing their lawn, harassed people on the streets for being a part of the administration, provided psychiatric support to college students to allow them to "cope" with the election results, etc....

Dieuwer wrote:
So, what's the issue with Brazil to begin with? How come that corruption and economic mismanagement keeps going on and on and on for decades?


Brazil has a Constitution that makes it very difficult to govern and a huge government, which provides plenty of opportunities for graft.

Aesma wrote:
He plans to sell off public companies like Petrobras, I fully expect his friends to benefit from this, while the common man of the street will see no benefit from it.


It will be really hard to rape and pillage Petrobras more than the PT already did. Over $1 billion in money (that we know of) siphoned off from the Company (and that means public shareholders, too) to support political campaigns in order to make their grasp of power eternal as well as sustain the luxury lifestyle of its leadership.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:31 am

Correct, we’ve got plenty of ruin, but not on the scale of Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras or Venezuela. We haven’t had military coups like Brazil, Argentina, or Bolivia. Runaway inflation like Argentina, Brazil or Venezuela. The US high point in GDP in mid-century was largely due to post-WW II economy where so much world productive capacity was destroyed by war. It was inevitable that it fall as Europe, Asian countries like Japan, Korea and Singapore recovered. The growth of China and lesser sized Asian Tigers reinforced the trend.

Argentina was in the top ten of global economies prior to Peron, no where near it since. It ranks 53rd on PPP per capita GDP. How was life under the generals until 1983? No, Latin country is considered a developed economy by the UN. Latin America has the highest murder rates in the world. Argentinian per capita GDP is 20% of the US, do you really live as well as an American for 1/5 the income.

GF
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:10 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Correct, we’ve got plenty of ruin, but not on the scale of Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras or Venezuela. We haven’t had military coups like Brazil, Argentina, or Bolivia. Runaway inflation like Argentina, Brazil or Venezuela. The US high point in GDP in mid-century was largely due to post-WW II economy where so much world productive capacity was destroyed by war. It was inevitable that it fall as Europe, Asian countries like Japan, Korea and Singapore recovered. The growth of China and lesser sized Asian Tigers reinforced the trend.

Argentina was in the top ten of global economies prior to Peron, no where near it since. It ranks 53rd on PPP per capita GDP. How was life under the generals until 1983? No, Latin country is considered a developed economy by the UN. Latin America has the highest murder rates in the world. Argentinian per capita GDP is 20% of the US, do you really live as well as an American for 1/5 the income.

GF


Depends on definition. World Bank does list Chile as a “high income” economy (and is the only Latin American country on the list).

As for murder rates - Argentina and Ecuador are both comparable to US, while Chile does even better than US in that category. Just bc El Salvador and Honduras and Venezuela and well, Brasil is a mess, doesn’t mean the entire Latin America is extremely dangerous.

My personal take on “why Brasil can’t get it together” is that it is simply a larger country than what people (in US) usually think, an extreme income gap, and AFAIK politicians simply have a “don’t care” attitude (as long as they get their share of the grafts, that is. :duck .).

Ultimately, Bolzonaro gets elected bc, well, PT suck and Brazilean want changes. Prediction myself is that he will just be as corrupt.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:36 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So, what's the issue with Brazil to begin with? How come that corruption and economic mismanagement keeps going on and on and on for decades?


Statism. A high level of state intervention and control of the economy and society. And this is not just the left—but the right, under the dictatorships, had plenty of state-run enterprises and distrust of markets. The right wanted to control the economy almost as much as the left. Bolsonaro used to be one of these guys. As for corruption, this intermingle of politicians and the companies they control is just too tempting, too easy.

Chile broke free of excessive statism, ironically under a dictatorship, and it is by far the most advanced country in South America, politically, economically, socially. This was mainly done for the economy, but it has had effects across society.

What lacks in Brazil is the libertarian strain that Americans have, Democrats and Republicans alike. Some may lean more civil libertarian than economic, but it is nonetheless there....

In addition, after the dictatorship, the democratic movement was rather paranoid of another dictatorship happening and created excessive protections for politicians which they have been using to slow or even inhibit prosecution for corruption charges, often for years at a time. This is now getting properly addressed, too, and the rule of law is catching up to them.

So there’s quite a few things going on right now that may well have Brazil turn the corner. And no, Bolsonaro isn’t what I’m talking about—some major changes have been happening for a couple of years now. Bolsonaro is still squarely in the “remains to be seen” camp because he isn’t president yet. I hope he’s helpful and there’s evidence he may be taking some lessons from Chile’s economic reforms, which is a good sign.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aesma
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:50 pm

It seems to me these Brazilians chanting in the street that their savior has been elected don't want less state, but rather more of it.
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PPVRA
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
It seems to me these Brazilians chanting in the street that their savior has been elected don't want less state, but rather more of it.


Numerous groups out there protesting at different times who want different things. They’re not all free market loving by any means.

But the PT.... no apologies for the monumental corruption scandal, no signs of admitting anything, no signs of sincere party reforms, and to make matters worse they are pushing an extremely damaging campaign of some huge conspiracy against them. And on top of that, they appoint a communist party member to run as Vice President, worsening fears they might go full hard left a la Venezuela.

They deserved the democratic squashing they got.

FYI Brazil has another unusual problem: far too many political parties. Multiple parties on the left, right, center.... so damning the PT is hardly the same thing as damning the entire left. Plenty of criticism of the PT coming from other left parties as well. Multiple leftist had a hard time endorsing thePT this election, even in the face of Bolsonaro. Some endorsed them but obviously begrudgingly.
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Aesma
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:18 pm

Many parties is not necessarily a problem, it seems to me the PT indeed didn't clean up its mess, and bet on Lula for far too long. If they had done some cosmetic changes and dropped Lula 6 months ago, things would be different. Despite all the problems they still got 45% of the vote.
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Pyrex
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:34 pm

The problem was that cleaning up the mess was impossible for the PT because the mess WAS the PT. The level of corruption in and around the party, at all levels, was so mind-bogglingly insane that in the US they would have had RICO charges brought against them. Like IG Farben, there simply was no way to kill the Roy and leave the patient alive. Lula was just the head of the snake.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:42 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Yes, because it clearly has been the Republicans that engaged in all sorts of hijinks to prevent him from even getting into power (trying to convince electoral college members to not uphold their duties, to have Congress not certify the results of the Electoral College, engage in Designated Survivor fantasies), have pursued witch-hunts while in power that only exposed the scale of their malfeasance even before the elections, tried to achieve a majority in Congress by shooting up the Congressional baseball team and beating the crap out of Senators mowing their lawn

Oh Jesus Christ 70+% of deadly extremist violence is right wing. The end. Witness: the MAGA bomber, the PIT MAGA shooter, and the Kroger MAGA shooter last week, and the MAGA yoga shooter this week. Even the Daily Stormer admits it:

"we found that 92 percent of ideologically motivated homicide incidents were committed with a right-wing extremist or white supremacist motive."
https://dailycaller.com/2017/06/23/fact ... -violence/
There is little more violent than a white, right wing male.

Aesma wrote:
Many parties is not necessarily a problem, it seems to me the PT indeed didn't clean up its mess, and bet on Lula for far too long. If they had done some cosmetic changes and dropped Lula 6 months ago, things would be different. Despite all the problems they still got 45% of the vote.

Seems like people were mostly voting against PT at all costs, rather than for Bolsonaro.
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Pyrex
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:03 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
There is little more violent than a white, right wing male.


Even beyond the obvious bullshit in your numbers (the Pulse nightclub shooter alone would put a serious dent in those percentages), you are comparing the actions of some isolated, solitary assholes with the concerted action of the top democratic leadership and their media sycophants (which most of my examples, other than the Congressional baseball and the Rand Paul lawn incident, were). Way to make a point...
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Aesma
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:01 am

I hadn't followed the case too closely but the conviction of Lula doesn't seem that clear cut. And now the judge behind it is poised to become minister of justice ?
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MaverickM11
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:19 am

Pyrex wrote:
you are comparing the actions of some isolated, solitary assholes with the concerted action of the top democratic leadership and their media sycophants

Oh I get it; you don't get how math or reality works. Those aren't isolated incidents, and taken together create a pattern of right wing violence that is far more deadly and frequent than left wing--or Islamist--violence, whether real (or in your case) imagined. In the years 2008-2017, right wing violence were behind 71% of attacks, with Islamist only 26%. 2018 will only see that trend increase: the baseball shooting killed precisely zero people other than the attacker, while in the last two weeks there have been 18 deaths between the MAGA Kroger/Pittsburgh/Tallahassee incidents, plus god knows how many deaths avoided by catching the MAGA bomber in Florida.

Pyrex wrote:
the Rand Paul lawn incident, were

Do you have any proof to support that other than the voices in your head? Because the prosecutor would probably be interested... :roll:
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Pyrex
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Aesma wrote:
I hadn't followed the case too closely but the conviction of Lula doesn't seem that clear cut. And now the judge behind it is poised to become minister of justice ?


Lula was convicted not only by Moro but also by an appeals court, that actually increased his sentence. He is also named in probably close to a dozen, at this stage, criminal proceedings. What he was sent to jail for was not nearly the most serious thing he did, but it was the one he was most careless at, thus easier to prove - basically the equivalent of sending Al Capone to jail for tax evasion. You must remember that what the PT politicians stole for personal reasons was a drop in the bucket compared to what they stole for the party (fund political campaigns, pay bloggers and street protesters, even buy votes in Congress for their preferred policies).

Operation Carwash is a very fascinating topic, and it truly cuts across all political parties in Brazil - the closest modern equivalent anywhere is Operation Clean Hands in Italy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite ), which coincidentally enough also used the state oil company as the nexus for corruption. PT was the largest and most corrupt at it, since they were the party in power, but they did not have a majority in Congress, so they made sure to share the spoils of power across the political spectrum. Sergio Moro sent to jail not only people linked to the PT, but also to other parties, and no party at all (highly influential businessmen who basically just went with the wind and payed money to whoever they had to pay money to get things done).

I agree that the optics of Sergio Moro becoming Minister do not look great, but he is probably the most admired Brazilian (by Brazilians) since Ayrton Senna (who didn't send anyone to jail, so made less enemies), and he has shown tenacity (it is a miracle he is still alive...) and an independent spirit, so I am sure he will be a fine Minister. Also, Antonio di Pietro, probably the Italian equivalent of Sergio Moro, ended up in politics eventually, as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Di_Pietro).
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zkojq
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:57 pm

Taking a step back from Brasil, when did electing a far-right populist ever make things better? :roll:
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:59 pm

Corruption is so widespread and pervasive in Brasil it might be wise jto ignore the issue and pursue other items like fighting violent crime and economic reforms.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Conservative Jair Bolsonaro wins Brazil Presidency

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:08 pm

Fighting crime and economic reforms also happen to be the central tenets of Bolsonaro's platform.
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