Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
seb146 wrote:It also depends on if they want to keep the lifestyle they are living now. Many people who retire and are considered middle income or lower have to cut back on many "luxuries" when they retire. Like buying name brand food or going on road trips just because. I live in a retirement area and many people complain that they can not live on what they saved because of inflation. The cost of living keeps going up and up and up while their income stays the same.
salttee wrote:seb146 wrote:It also depends on if they want to keep the lifestyle they are living now. Many people who retire and are considered middle income or lower have to cut back on many "luxuries" when they retire. Like buying name brand food or going on road trips just because. I live in a retirement area and many people complain that they can not live on what they saved because of inflation. The cost of living keeps going up and up and up while their income stays the same.
Oh, comeon.
Name brand food? Do you think that is a financial burden? You seem to be as detached from the life of the middle class and lower as Donald Trump. When you get older most people don't have to "cut back", they invariably live a more subdued lifestyle and for several reasons (no more kids, no more saving for retirement, no need for a bigger house, many less trips to Aspen (or wherever). Older people have less financial needs than younger people.
I'm an older person, I know a bit about this subject.
seb146 wrote:"I'll just wait until it goes on sale"
DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
seat64k wrote:Now, back to my original ponderings. Is someone, say in their 60s, with a couple of million in the bank be considered wealthy? Or are they just barely prepared for retirement? Would it not make sense to use every trick available to maximise their returns?
salttee wrote:Beside the fact that your financial model is absurd (100k attainable for all or most working class in 2nd tier cities retire after 25 years work, ignore SS, retire at the same income as when working), when people rail about the shift in the nation's wealth to the 2% crowd they aren't talking about people who make 100K per year.
salttee wrote:Yes, someone in their 60s with their house paid for, their kids college paid for and a couple of million cash lying around would be considered "wealthy". But those people aren't part of that 2%.
salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
DfwRevolution wrote:The bulk of Americans in the top 1-2% of net worth are not lugubrious Wall Street bankers, professional athletes, or movie stars.
seat64k wrote:I often see posts (here and on social media) about the rich stashing money and lots of moralizing about it. This makes me wonder:
1) What do people consider "rich"? How much money in the bank makes one rich?
jetero wrote:DfwRevolution wrote:The bulk of Americans in the top 1-2% of net worth are not lugubrious Wall Street bankers, professional athletes, or movie stars.
Someone has no idea what lugubrious means.
salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
salttee wrote:The OP raised an ambiguous point about "the rich stashing money". There is an ongoing public discussion on this subject, you can google "the rich stashing money" and you'll see some of the points of discussion. This article talks about people with a net worth "north of 20 million".
salttee wrote:That's just what I consider the entry point for the subject of unequal wealth distribution. There are over 54,000 people with a net worth of more than 300 million and worldwide there are over 2,000 billionaires.
I don't see any point in allowing any one person to accumulate that much wealth. At that point they are not creating wealth, they are hoarding it. And no doubt abusing the power derived from that accumulation of power in many cases.
Why the libertarians carry the cross for these people is beyond me.
DL717 wrote:seb146 wrote:"I'll just wait until it goes on sale"
Dirty little secret. This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco. Then we strip down the wardrobe to what we need. That and live within ones means rather than turn the number one asset into a piggy bank for toys.
Everyone takes a hit in retirement. That’s why you move somewhere that your dollars can stretch further. If you don’t, then your just being foolish.
DfwRevolution wrote:jetero wrote:DfwRevolution wrote:The bulk of Americans in the top 1-2% of net worth are not lugubrious Wall Street bankers, professional athletes, or movie stars.
Someone has no idea what lugubrious means.
Sure. Wall Street bankers are known for being happy people. Run with that.
DfwRevolution wrote:Since I never crunched those numbers or spent any time analyzing the basis for those numbers I really don't distinguish between 1%, 2% or 3%; my interest is in the subject of wealth distribution and I stick with net worth numbers because that's something tangible. 1%, 2% or 3% are statistics - and statistics lie, or at least add an unnecessary layer of ambiguity into the conversation, at least for me.Am I to believe you will distinguish in between top 2% and top 3% in your re-distributive agenda? I don't. So yes, I do think you are actually talking about people who make $100K per year. And unsurprisingly, you're giving us all the usual deflections that you're really just concerned about the wealth accumulation of billionaires and hundred millionaires.
We can see through this. The whole Occupy Wall Street nonsense started in 2009 with the rallying cry against the top 1%. Now you're talking top 2%. This inevitable creeping effect was bound to engulf the upper middle class because that's the bulk of household wealth in the United States.
DfwRevolution wrote:Did you find that in the bible or is it something Rand Paul told you? You are stating opinion as fact, a common mistake libertarians make. In fact, libertarians have a habit of congregating their assumptions and forming further assumptions on the basis of these illusionary truths. Sometimes they are quite comical.It's a cross worth carrying because it's the right thing to do in a free society.
DfwRevolution wrote:I bet that the vast majority of billionaires inherited their stake from their families and mostly just held monopolies or near monopolies all their lives. But I have nothing to prove it any more than you have anything to prove your assumption.The vast majority of billionaires earned their fortune by founding a publicly traded company. Those companies exploded in growth because they offered some kind of revolutionary product or service that profoundly changed society for the better. The bulk of their wealth is the ownership share of the company they created. Who will drop out of Harvard to create the next Microsoft or Facebook if people like you will just seize the company once it is successful?
DfwRevolution wrote:Here is a perfect example of a libertarian making compound assumptions and then projecting from there.Who will drop out of Harvard to create the next Microsoft or Facebook if people like you will just seize the company once it is successful?
Aesma wrote:If you have progressive taxation along with significant capital gains taxation then you need not worry about who makes what, the progressivity is there to take care of it. At the moment with such a low capital gains taxation in the US you have regressive taxation.
jetero wrote:salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
Now let's say you make $75k per year instead of $50k, or $100k per year instead of $50k. What do you think is the real driver there?
Do the math, Professor, and stop believing in fables. Actually, I'll give you some credit--I doubt you believe in them, but instead like spreading them for political purposes.
DL717 wrote:jetero wrote:salttee wrote:
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
Now let's say you make $75k per year instead of $50k, or $100k per year instead of $50k. What do you think is the real driver there?
Do the math, Professor, and stop believing in fables. Actually, I'll give you some credit--I doubt you believe in them, but instead like spreading them for political purposes.
How little you two know.
DL717 wrote:jetero wrote:salttee wrote:
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
Now let's say you make $75k per year instead of $50k, or $100k per year instead of $50k. What do you think is the real driver there?
Do the math, Professor, and stop believing in fables. Actually, I'll give you some credit--I doubt you believe in them, but instead like spreading them for political purposes.
How little you two know. Off you go now with your credit cards, the associated debt, and whatever you think you can buy that will make you happy.
salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
tommy1808 wrote:salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
I tend to believe it. If I go to an ALDI or LIDL here and look at the parking lot, or to a REWE or REAL (higher, but not high price, grocery store) and look and the cars in the parking lot you see the more middle and upper class cars parked at the discounter. You will also find a full range of organic or luxury foods including Caviar, real one.
When we had the income thingy thread going I was checking where I stand in terms of income, turns out I have almost 3 times the median and about twice the average income..I almost exclusively shop my food from ALDI, i usually buy stuff one sale, but not without checking if it really is a sale, I use my electronics until they fail, notable exception was my TV since the 22' Tube just didn't want to break, in my old company I had the highest non-owner income, but the smallest car in the parking lot, a FIAT Punto. Modified to run on LPG, since it's cheaper to run, for a modest 3000$ upfront investment. When I travel, and only need a bed to crash, I stay in hostels. Not because i am stingy, i gladly pay for a junior suit in a 4 or 5 star place if I actually spend time in the room, but because it is a waste. The only real brand clothing I exclusively have are shoes, and Geox isn't that pricy, and the only other brand clothes are a couple of shirt, Ties and two suits for work. My every day shirts are from medium price Walbusch, I order when they have the order one, get two sales.....
I almost never agree with DL717, but I have his back on that one. I get more aware of price/value with every raise I get.
Best regards
Thomas
salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:jetero wrote:
Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
Now let's say you make $75k per year instead of $50k, or $100k per year instead of $50k. What do you think is the real driver there?
Do the math, Professor, and stop believing in fables. Actually, I'll give you some credit--I doubt you believe in them, but instead like spreading them for political purposes.
How little you two know.
You can't even try to make your ridiculous case. How old are you? You have about middle school logic.
In your opinion I assume that Neiman Marcus stores will be located in poor neighborhoods and that we'll find lots of dollar stores in exclusive neighborhoods. Jaguar dealerships in the ghetto and used car lots in the Hamptons.
Yea right!
salttee wrote:Aesma wrote:If you have progressive taxation along with significant capital gains taxation then you need not worry about who makes what, the progressivity is there to take care of it. At the moment with such a low capital gains taxation in the US you have regressive taxation.
Ding!
DL717 wrote:salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:
How little you two know.
You can't even try to make your ridiculous case. How old are you? You have about middle school logic.
In your opinion I assume that Neiman Marcus stores will be located in poor neighborhoods and that we'll find lots of dollar stores in exclusive neighborhoods. Jaguar dealerships in the ghetto and used car lots in the Hamptons.
Yea right!
You’re not getting it at all.
seat64k wrote:I often see posts (here and on social media) about the rich stashing money and lots of moralizing about it. This makes me wonder:
1) What do people consider "rich"? How much money in the bank makes one rich?
2) How many people who make those references know how much money they need invested in order to retire with enough to maintain their current lifestyles?
Lets get some figures. First, a hypothetical and some assumptions: I don't live in the US, but I'm in tech, used to work for a US company, and know that $100k per year is fairly attainable for a reasonably experienced and skilled person in, what I would call, a second-tier city. I.e. not silicon valley and not the major hubs. YMMV, but lets go with that.
Disclaimer: I'm not a financial advisor. Heck, I'm barely financially literate.
Assumption 1: I make $100k per year. That's $8333 per month (I'm ignoring tax here)
Assumption 2: I retire in 25 years
Assumption 3: There's 3% inflation pa.
Assumption 4: I want to make the $8333 p/m off my investments (401k? or whatever), adjusted for inflation
Assumption 5: Whatever investment vehicles I use, will give me 5% pa once you retire.
Step 1: Lets start by seeing how much money I need to make once I retire? That's simple compound interest:
salary * (1 + interest) ^ years = 100,000 * (1 + 0.03) ^ 25 = 209,378. That's $17,448 per month.
Step 2: How much do I need to have in my investments, for 5% interest to be $209,378? At 5% (0.05) this is easy to calculate
Income pa / 0.05 = 209378 / 0.05 = $4,187,560
That's right: you need just shy of $4.2mil invested at 5%pa to live off the interest.
Note: at retirement age I start using the interest paid rather than investing it, so the saved amount will need to be higher. Given that lifespans are longer and the future is uncertain, this could be a major adjustment. But that's besides the scope of this conversation.
Now, back to my original ponderings. Is someone, say in their 60s, with a couple of million in the bank be considered wealthy? Or are they just barely prepared for retirement? Would it not make sense to use every trick available to maximise their returns?
tommy1808 wrote:So you think all those BMWs are bought by people on the dole eh? Your personal story has no relevance to this debate and in any event, by far most people aren't like you even in Europe. On this side of the pond materialism is in. The premise you guys are selling is ridiculous. Those fancy cars you see poor people driving are eight or ten years old. The people with money put the first 20,000 miles on them. Face it the people with money live on the upper East side, or in Malibu or Aspen or Chicago's gold coast and they have all the accoutrements to go with their expensive real estate. Just look around. It's always the same, nothing changes. Somebody lives on the top of the hill and somebody else lives in the flats next to the refinery. Wives of the moneyed crowd wear real diamonds and shop in designer stores, the lower echelons don't even know where that stuff is sold.salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
I tend to believe it. If I go to an ALDI or LIDL here and look at the parking lot, or to a REWE or REAL (higher, but not high price, grocery store) and look and the cars in the parking lot you see the more middle and upper class cars parked at the discounter. You will also find a full range of organic or luxury foods including Caviar, real one.
When we had the income thingy thread going I was checking where I stand in terms of income, turns out I have almost 3 times the median and about twice the average income..I almost exclusively shop my food from ALDI, i usually buy stuff one sale, but not without checking if it really is a sale, I use my electronics until they fail, notable exception was my TV since the 22' Tube just didn't want to break, in my old company I had the highest non-owner income, but the smallest car in the parking lot, a FIAT Punto. Modified to run on LPG, since it's cheaper to run, for a modest 3000$ upfront investment. When I travel, and only need a bed to crash, I stay in hostels. Not because i am stingy, i gladly pay for a junior suit in a 4 or 5 star place if I actually spend time in the room, but because it is a waste. The only real brand clothing I exclusively have are shoes, and Geox isn't that pricy, and the only other brand clothes are a couple of shirt, Ties and two suits for work. My every day shirts are from medium price Walbusch, I order when they have the order one, get two sales.....
I almost never agree with DL717, but I have his back on that one. I get more aware of price/value with every raise I get.
Best regards
Thomas
salttee wrote:LOL. you expect people to believe that?
salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
Flighty wrote:salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
It's the truth. A lot of "luxury enthusiasts" don't have a DIME. A lot of the "rich people" image is totally fake. They aren't beautiful people wearing Cartier/Chanel. Those are actors/models aspiring to SELL things, usually to posers, who are also not rich!
Most rich people I know are not excited by glamor, they are excited by business, or science, plus 1 hobby or vice. Warbirds, or the Baja 1000, or horses, or like Eddie Van Halen has a guitar studio in his backyard... every rich person has one thing like that. Costco is a delight to a rich person because it is no BS, they sell quality goods with no questions, they stock good wine.
salttee wrote:by far most people aren't like you even in Europe.
On this side of the pond materialism is in.
Those fancy cars you see poor people driving are eight or ten years old.
Face it the people with money live on the upper East side, or in Malibu or Aspen or Chicago's gold coast and they have all the accoutrements to go with their expensive real estate..
tommy1808 wrote:salttee wrote:DL717 wrote:This is how the wealthy stay wealthy. We also shop at Walmart and Costco
LOL. you expect people to believe that?
I tend to believe it. If I go to an ALDI or LIDL here and look at the parking lot, or to a REWE or REAL (higher, but not high price, grocery store) and look and the cars in the parking lot you see the more middle and upper class cars parked at the discounter. You will also find a full range of organic or luxury foods including Caviar, real one.
When we had the income thingy thread going I was checking where I stand in terms of income, turns out I have almost 3 times the median and about twice the average income..I almost exclusively shop my food from ALDI, i usually buy stuff one sale, but not without checking if it really is a sale, I use my electronics until they fail, notable exception was my TV since the 22' Tube just didn't want to break, in my old company I had the highest non-owner income, but the smallest car in the parking lot, a FIAT Punto. Modified to run on LPG, since it's cheaper to run, for a modest 3000$ upfront investment. When I travel, and only need a bed to crash, I stay in hostels. Not because i am stingy, i gladly pay for a junior suit in a 4 or 5 star place if I actually spend time in the room, but because it is a waste. The only real brand clothing I exclusively have are shoes, and Geox isn't that pricy, and the only other brand clothes are a couple of shirt, Ties and two suits for work. My every day shirts are from medium price Walbusch, I order when they have the order one, get two sales.....
I almost never agree with DL717, but I have his back on that one. I get more aware of price/value with every raise I get.
Best regards
Thomas
seahawk wrote:Since when is being rich a bad thing? You can not be too rich and you should always try to get richer by any means possible.
jetero wrote:Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Sounds like Tommy is King if DL717Landia, where it doesn’t matter how much money you make but rather how much you spend. Typical Republican fable.
salttee wrote:Beside the fact that your financial model is absurd (100k attainable for all or most working class in 2nd tier cities
salttee wrote:retire at the same income as when working)
jetero wrote:Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
seat64k wrote:jetero wrote:Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
Why would you dismiss that? $500 per month over 45 years at 5% is $539,100 in the bank. Keep that in a 5% pa investment after retirement and you have $2246 p/m from it. Lots of little habits like this add up to real money over a lifetime.
Investigative reporters Susanne Craig and David Barstow say the president received today's equivalent of $413 million from his father's real estate empire, through what appears to be tax fraud.
"by age 3, Trump was earning $200,000 a year as measured in today's dollars from his father Fred Trump's real estate empire. Fred Trump made Donald Trump a millionaire by the time Donald was 8. Over the years, Donald received today's equivalent of $413 million from his father's businesses.
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/18/65844235 ... illionaire
jetero wrote:seat64k wrote:jetero wrote:Hogwash. If you are made "wealthy" by clipping coupons and buying jeans at Costco, you ain't wealthy. What could you save in that situation at best, $500/month (and I'm being generous)? That's $6k per year.
Why would you dismiss that? $500 per month over 45 years at 5% is $539,100 in the bank. Keep that in a 5% pa investment after retirement and you have $2246 p/m from it. Lots of little habits like this add up to real money over a lifetime.
Where do you see I'm dismissing anything, seat64k?
jetero wrote:Hogwash.
jetero wrote:The primary driver is how much you make.
salttee wrote:Here's an example of how the rich actually get rich; this is from a recent "Fresh Air" episode by Terry Gross.Investigative reporters Susanne Craig and David Barstow say the president received today's equivalent of $413 million from his father's real estate empire, through what appears to be tax fraud.
"by age 3, Trump was earning $200,000 a year as measured in today's dollars from his father Fred Trump's real estate empire. Fred Trump made Donald Trump a millionaire by the time Donald was 8. Over the years, Donald received today's equivalent of $413 million from his father's businesses.
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/18/65844235 ... illionaire
No shopping at Walmart for Fred or Donald.
jetero wrote:DL717 wrote:salttee wrote:You can't even try to make your ridiculous case. How old are you? You have about middle school logic.
In your opinion I assume that Neiman Marcus stores will be located in poor neighborhoods and that we'll find lots of dollar stores in exclusive neighborhoods. Jaguar dealerships in the ghetto and used car lots in the Hamptons.
Yea right!
You’re not getting it at all.
Give us your pro forma DL717, so we can connect the dots to fortunes deriving from white sales. Black Friday must be the biggest day for your family.
seat64k wrote:In fact they do. The vast majority of wealthy people came from wealth.Heck, they don't even represent most wealthy people.
seat64k wrote:Yes it does affect me (using "me" as a metaphor.) The extreme tilt towards established wealth we currently have leads to a number of undesirable results: it makes the career playing field unequal which hinders efficiency and innovation. It also has political ramifications and affects the justice system; as things are now people without wealth are powerless in either the civil or the criminal side of our legal system. The people from easy money see no reason to change this.And how much they make and how they make it doesn't make a lick of difference to how much you earn or what you can do with it.
DL717 wrote:You don’t understand wealth at all.
salttee wrote:Walmart? But if your kids won't wear those tacky clothes and your wife won't let the housemaid put those crap on linens on your bed how much money have you saved? When you're talking about the "rich" you're talking about people who have been sleeping on 800 thread per inch sheets since they were babies. Very few of "the rich" just got that way.
Sure you might stop to buy a camera or big screen TV or something like that once in a while.
Who do you think shops at these places?
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style ... about-you/
or these?
https://www.racked.com/2013/1/28/769180 ... ted-states
Not factory workers with a big overtime check, that's for sure.