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seahawk
Posts: 7468
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:12 pm

rabenschlag wrote:
seahawk wrote:
And that is what the UK need. The status of every foreigner living in the UK needs to be re-checked and most should be thrown out. Only a selected number of useful, highly qualified and high tax paying individuals should be allowed to stay.


I thought long (well, not that long) and hard about whether to feed this kind of reasoning. But I can't resist.... So, I'll give it one try:

May I ask: Would you also argue in favour of "throwing out" useless, non-qualified and non tax paying brits? If not: why?


No, it is time that the Brits take back control of the country and make it great again. The constant influx of immigrants is destroying British culture, traditions and the county as a whole. Stop Immigration, leave the EU!!
 
Arion640
Posts: 1983
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:43 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

To be honest, i’d of been happy with EFTA, but we are where we are.


And yet EFTA allows freedom of movement....

You talk in riddles Arion640.


EFTA in it’s old form, pre full European Union....
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1283
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:17 pm

Arion640 wrote:
-House prices at a record high
-Houses being built at a stupidly rapid rate (the countryside is disappearing)
-NHS at breaking point
-Road network at breaking point
-Schools at breaking point
-Communities seeing a rapid pace of change

Enough said.


Seriously, what does ANY of that have to do with the EU?!?!??!!

Can you honestly not see that ALL OF THAT IS UK GOVERNMENT REPSONSIBILITY!?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
JJJ
Posts: 3038
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:34 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

To be honest, i’d of been happy with EFTA, but we are where we are.


And yet EFTA allows freedom of movement....

You talk in riddles Arion640.


EFTA in it’s old form, pre full European Union....


A failure then.
 
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bgm
Posts: 1759
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:53 pm

Arion640 wrote:
-House prices at a record high

You can blame the UK govt on their housing policy. This has nothing to do with the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Houses being built at a stupidly rapid rate (the countryside is disappearing)

Well, where else would you like them to build houses? Out on the sea maybe?

Arion640 wrote:
-NHS at breaking point

Again, the UK gov funds the NHS, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Road network at breaking point

Once again, the UK gov controls funds for infrastructure, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Schools at breaking point

Yet again, the UK gov controls funds for schools, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Communities seeing a rapid pace of change

And this is bad how exactly? Is that backhanded xenophobia for 'my area isn't of the sort like me anymore?' :sarcastic:

Arion640 wrote:
Enough said.

Not even close. From your previous threads, you throw about all this meaningless emotional rhetoric such as:

Arion640 wrote:
Time to reverse the damage and save Britain while we still can.


Yet like so many Brexiteers, you are scant on the details, which unfortunately is what is going to trip up the whole process. You provide absolutely no viable solutions for the myriad of issues surrounding leaving the EU, the most contentious being the Irish border.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your gammon.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
mmo
Posts: 1637
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:33 pm

seahawk wrote:
No, it is time that the Brits take back control of the country and make it great again. The constant influx of immigrants is destroying British culture, traditions and the county as a whole. Stop Immigration, leave the EU!!


Again, when did the was control given up? The UK decided NOT TO implement any immigration controls for EU citizens. They had the opportunity and elected to take no action.

It's funny when I read this dribble because the bulk immigration is from outside of the EU. You're telling me the UK has no immigration controls?
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Arion640
Posts: 1983
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:50 pm

bgm wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
-House prices at a record high

You can blame the UK govt on their housing policy. This has nothing to do with the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Houses being built at a stupidly rapid rate (the countryside is disappearing)

Well, where else would you like them to build houses? Out on the sea maybe?

Arion640 wrote:
-NHS at breaking point

Again, the UK gov funds the NHS, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Road network at breaking point

Once again, the UK gov controls funds for infrastructure, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Schools at breaking point

Yet again, the UK gov controls funds for schools, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Communities seeing a rapid pace of change

And this is bad how exactly? Is that backhanded xenophobia for 'my area isn't of the sort like me anymore?' :sarcastic:

Arion640 wrote:
Enough said.

Not even close. From your previous threads, you throw about all this meaningless emotional rhetoric such as:

Arion640 wrote:
Time to reverse the damage and save Britain while we still can.


Yet like so many Brexiteers, you are scant on the details, which unfortunately is what is going to trip up the whole process. You provide absolutely no viable solutions for the myriad of issues surrounding leaving the EU, the most contentious being the Irish border.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your gammon.


Someones getting a little on the frustrated side. Is it because I share a different opinion to you? Like I said to Richard, there’s a demand factor to all of this!

Can’t wait. Counting down the days until we are free of the EUSSR. A more prosperous britain for everyone.
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bgm
Posts: 1759
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:24 pm

Arion640 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
-House prices at a record high

You can blame the UK govt on their housing policy. This has nothing to do with the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Houses being built at a stupidly rapid rate (the countryside is disappearing)

Well, where else would you like them to build houses? Out on the sea maybe?

Arion640 wrote:
-NHS at breaking point

Again, the UK gov funds the NHS, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Road network at breaking point

Once again, the UK gov controls funds for infrastructure, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Schools at breaking point

Yet again, the UK gov controls funds for schools, not the EU.

Arion640 wrote:
-Communities seeing a rapid pace of change

And this is bad how exactly? Is that backhanded xenophobia for 'my area isn't of the sort like me anymore?' :sarcastic:

Arion640 wrote:
Enough said.

Not even close. From your previous threads, you throw about all this meaningless emotional rhetoric such as:

Arion640 wrote:
Time to reverse the damage and save Britain while we still can.


Yet like so many Brexiteers, you are scant on the details, which unfortunately is what is going to trip up the whole process. You provide absolutely no viable solutions for the myriad of issues surrounding leaving the EU, the most contentious being the Irish border.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your gammon.


Someones getting a little on the frustrated side. Is it because I share a different opinion to you? Like I said to Richard, there’s a demand factor to all of this!

Can’t wait. Counting down the days until we are free of the EUSSR. A more prosperous britain for everyone.


You didn’t answer any of my points. Just more rhetoric without any thought to how it will be implemented. You’re not alone, unfortunately.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
Arion640
Posts: 1983
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:30 pm

bgm wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
bgm wrote:
You can blame the UK govt on their housing policy. This has nothing to do with the EU.


Well, where else would you like them to build houses? Out on the sea maybe?


Again, the UK gov funds the NHS, not the EU.


Once again, the UK gov controls funds for infrastructure, not the EU.


Yet again, the UK gov controls funds for schools, not the EU.


And this is bad how exactly? Is that backhanded xenophobia for 'my area isn't of the sort like me anymore?' :sarcastic:


Not even close. From your previous threads, you throw about all this meaningless emotional rhetoric such as:



Yet like so many Brexiteers, you are scant on the details, which unfortunately is what is going to trip up the whole process. You provide absolutely no viable solutions for the myriad of issues surrounding leaving the EU, the most contentious being the Irish border.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your gammon.


Someones getting a little on the frustrated side. Is it because I share a different opinion to you? Like I said to Richard, there’s a demand factor to all of this!

Can’t wait. Counting down the days until we are free of the EUSSR. A more prosperous britain for everyone.


You didn’t answer any of my points. Just more rhetoric without any thought to how it will be implemented. You’re not alone, unfortunately.


Any thought on how it would be implemented? Pulling out of the EU and controlling our borders would be a fantastic start! Lets push on and lead the world.
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Dutchy
Posts: 6864
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:32 pm

Arion640 wrote:
A more prosperous britain for everyone.


Not supported by facts. Even the politics admits MAYBE in 50 years there are some benefits, MAYBE. As it stands now, it will cost someone whom is 20, ca. € 150.000 in all. Yeah more prosperous.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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bgm
Posts: 1759
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:48 pm

Arion640 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Someones getting a little on the frustrated side. Is it because I share a different opinion to you? Like I said to Richard, there’s a demand factor to all of this!

Can’t wait. Counting down the days until we are free of the EUSSR. A more prosperous britain for everyone.


You didn’t answer any of my points. Just more rhetoric without any thought to how it will be implemented. You’re not alone, unfortunately.


Any thought on how it would be implemented? Pulling out of the EU and controlling our borders would be a fantastic start! Lets push on and lead the world.


Again, how to you propose leaving the EU? What about the Irish border? What about economic and trade agreements? Transport? That’s just scratching the surface but as of now none of that has been decided and time is running out.

This is precisely why the referendum should not have taken place. You have absolutely no clue.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2476
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:53 pm

Arion640 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Someones getting a little on the frustrated side. Is it because I share a different opinion to you? Like I said to Richard, there’s a demand factor to all of this!

Can’t wait. Counting down the days until we are free of the EUSSR. A more prosperous britain for everyone.


You didn’t answer any of my points. Just more rhetoric without any thought to how it will be implemented. You’re not alone, unfortunately.


Any thought on how it would be implemented? Pulling out of the EU and controlling our borders would be a fantastic start! Lets push on and lead the world.


And how do we do this in Northern Ireland whilst respecting good Friday agreement and CTA?

(Not the first time I have asked)
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2476
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:31 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Lets push on and lead the world.


The empire is no longer there
We will not be at table of any of the major trade blocks
We have a currency that had sunk in value and on hard Brexit could sink further
We have a health service which will be negatively hurt by Brexit
There could be shortages of certain food stuffs
There could be delays at borders
We will lose 65+ trade deals with the rest of the world
We will lose access to the largest free market in the world.
We have lost EMA
We could lose euratom meaning cancer parients and nuclear industries suffer.
We will lose Galileo
We will lose horizon 2020
We are likely on no deal to suffer recession

We are tieing one hand behind our back and hoping for good stuff to happen.

Leading the world? - most definitely not
Keeping up with the world? - Unlikely
Falling behind the world - almost inevitable.
 
Arion640
Posts: 1983
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:47 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
bgm wrote:

You didn’t answer any of my points. Just more rhetoric without any thought to how it will be implemented. You’re not alone, unfortunately.


Any thought on how it would be implemented? Pulling out of the EU and controlling our borders would be a fantastic start! Lets push on and lead the world.


And how do we do this in Northern Ireland whilst respecting good Friday agreement and CTA?

(Not the first time I have asked)


The CTA works fine as it is and has done for nearly 100 years. Two countries the same culturally with high levels of development, no mass influx of people one way or the other. It’s not too big and steaming out of control like the EU’s open border nonsense.

Was it around 2004 when Polish people could move to the UK? (Forgive me i’m unsure of the specific date), but ever since then, things have gone mad.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:54 pm

Arion640 wrote:
The CTA works fine as it is and has done for nearly 100 years. Two countries the same culturally with high levels of development, no mass influx of people one way or the other. It’s not too big and steaming out of control like the EU’s open border nonsense.

Was it around 2004 when Polish people could move to the UK? (Forgive me i’m unsure of the specific date), but ever since then, things have gone mad.


Utter bol***ks.

1) Ireland is one of the biggest sources of immigration to the UK. Those with Irish ancestory in uk amount to about 10% of population

2) ireland is part of EU. It allows free movement from rest of EU. An open border with Ireland means an open border with EU.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 546
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:33 am

Arion640 wrote:
The CTA works fine as it is and has done for nearly 100 years.

Magic, a straight answer at last. So you're happy with free movement with the EU, gotcha.

if you're not. The CTA cannot exist, as Eire is part of the EU. A border is required.

Where will you put it?
Eire/NI border? This will violate the Good Friday Agreement.
Irish Sea border? This will require UK citizens to cross a border within their own nation & push NI closer towards re-unification (which they didn't want in their referendum with a much larger majority that the midge's dick brexit scored, will you respect their choice?)
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 274
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
A more prosperous britain for everyone.


Not supported by facts. Even the politics admits MAYBE in 50 years there are some benefits, MAYBE. As it stands now, it will cost someone whom is 20, ca. € 150.000 in all. Yeah more prosperous.


It is claimed £110,000 give or take. Claimed.

Stop reading tabloids and assuming all predictions are correct.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 807
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:23 pm

Every time a news is breaking only in the British press, you can be sure that it is a fake news.

Like Raab november 21 yesterday, or today the fact that the EU could have agreed to the City wet dreams. Just to have Barnier setting things: https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/statu ... 4229999616

Misleading press articles today on #Brexit & financial services. Reminder: EU may grant and withdraw equivalence in some financial services autonomously. As with other 3rd countries, EU ready to have close regulatory dialogue with UK in full respect for autonomy of both parties.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2656
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:29 pm

Indeed, the state of desperation to reach any sort of a deal with the EU is so overwhelming on the side of the UK that they can't refrain from leaking from meetings discussing technical solutions which aren't immediately turned down as impossible, illegal or unworkable by the EU....
The latest is the joy over the fact that they could be offered 'equivalence' for banking services!
This has been on offer since day one!?! It's the default way to access the SM for third countries in fact...

Equivalence means that for as long as the UK mirrors the EU, its banks may continue to do some sort of business in the EU, just like any other country's bank may BTW, as long as it pleases the EU. TM had always turned it down, stating it was not enough, and offered no long term certainly on market access for the all important financial services in the UK nor did it offer the UK the possibility to diverge from EU rules, so she demanded 'mutual recognition' instead, meaning rules can diverge without risk of loosing market access and is clearly .

The fact the UK side now breathes a sigh of relief over the lowest of the low and is overly happy to accept equivalence after all, tells you something about the position of strength they negotiate from, doesn't it? And of course, as always, Mr. Barnier is pouring cold water on their hopes of getting it just like that, so some more humble pie will have to be eaten first, I suppose....

Equivalence means COPY PASTE forever, so if this is a precursor to the comprehensive FTA which is to comprise it and which is to end the UK's proposed alternative to the NI backstop -i.e. a temporary CU for the entire UK- too, the UK is just looking at a way to turn itself into a vassal state in a face saving way.
 
smallvoyageur
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:46 pm

Bring on the popcorn as the Electoral Commission has referred to one of the “Bad Boys of Brexit”, Arron Banks, to the National Crime Agency, the British FBI on the grounds to suspect "a number of criminal offences have been committed". Investigators are looking into his links of financing through a Manx company, using his insurance company illegally to assist BeLeave and links to Russia. :stirthepot:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... t-campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -eu-brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sian-links
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9165
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:03 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Equivalence means COPY PASTE forever,.


not quite. Equivalence just means the system is equivalent, not that it is identical. However, differences are rather small, but the US or Japanese banking system is equivalent without copy & paste EU regulations.

But good luck getting Equivalence if you want to reconstruct into a tax heaven....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2656
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:32 am

Yeah okay, I'll give it to you equivalence is not COPY-PASTE in form, but it is pretty much so in content: litterally, it means that whatever the UK's 'own' rules are going to say in future, it must have exactly the same effect as all (future) EU rules. Not only does that mean no meaningful divergence is possible, but also does it mean UK rules will have to evolve in sync with EU rules, all without the UK having any meaningful say let alone a blocking vote on those, like it does now.

TM pushed very hard for a much more generous system of mutual recognition in stead, which would have meant the UK was free to have its own rules diverging over time, or not mirror future EU legislation it didn't like and yet still retain access to the SM: obviously, that attempt failed.

What is more interesting however is that the EU only wants to commit to long term equivalence and thus market access for financial services within the framework of a broader FTA. If the UK accepts that -and it will have to as access based on basic equivalence alone can be revoked unilaterally in just 30 (!) days and is thus pretty useless for anything other than small ad hoc transactions- the principle will be extended to the whole of the agreement.... that is very much a Norway plus deal, and the British proposed alternative to the NI backstop, i.e. the UK remaining in the CU with the EU 'for now', can just as well become the permanent end state as there's no tangible advantage to not being in a CU any longer....
 
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bgm
Posts: 1759
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:37 am

Arion640 wrote:
The CTA works fine as it is and has done for nearly 100 years. Two countries the same culturally with high levels of development, no mass influx of people one way or the other. It’s not too big and steaming out of control like the EU’s open border nonsense.

Was it around 2004 when Polish people could move to the UK? (Forgive me i’m unsure of the specific date), but ever since then, things have gone mad.


At least you've admitted your xenophobia.

Coming back to Ireland. You realise that Ireland is in the EU, if the UK leaves, there will need to be a hard border because the UK will not be in the EU customs zone. (I can't believe I am having to spell this out).

The Good Friday agreement will be destroyed, and The Troubles will most likely return again. Hence why Theresa May is ignoring this small, but crucial '5%' in her negotiations.

How do you plan to solve this issue? Really curious to hear your solution.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:56 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Yeah okay, I'll give it to you equivalence is not COPY-PASTE in form, but it is pretty much so in content: litterally, it means that whatever the UK's 'own' rules are going to say in future, it must have exactly the same effect as all (future) EU rules. Not only does that mean no meaningful divergence is possible, but also does it mean UK rules will have to evolve in sync with EU rules, all without the UK having any meaningful say let alone a blocking vote on those, like it does now. .


yup. Just wanted it precise. It is also at the leisure of the EU an can be revoked for any reason and any time.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:31 am

Interesting leak of the day, today...

The Times is reporting that TM has formally proposed to the EU that the WHOLE of the UK remains in Custom Union with the EU as alternative to the NI backstop solution.

As we all know, the EU has never been never opposed to the idea of a UK wide CU with the EU (it was always ruled out by the UK so far), but has always demanded that the backstop solution would still be needed because a CU can be ended too of course (just like EU membership) and then the NI problem would emerge again.
It seems this demand could now have been dropped in return for a guarantee in the withdrawal treaty that the CU can not unilaterally be rescinded by the UK (!), unless certain provisions on equivalance of whatever replaces it, are fulfilled first, something TM can then sell as proof this CU is not 'permanent', but rather just an open ended 'transitional' state, with those opposing it having to come up with the technical solutions to end the transition period.

If the UK stays in a permanent CU with the EU, it can kiss goodbye to its own trade deals of course, so this is very toxic for Brexiteers, hence the 'agreement' is currently kept secret until TM can throw them a bone too. According to some sources, this should come under the form of a promise by the EU of a comprehensive FTA with the UK as proof the UK will be able to do these kind of deals after all. (not mentioning that because of the CU, the EU deal is the ONLY one the UK can technically do). The EU is hoped to also invite the UK to piggy back on its FTAs at some stage during the negotiations (in return for some sort of contribution of course to the 'common foreign trade effort') and so there would be no further need for own UK deals and the impossibility would never have to be experienced for real...

In short: this is a CU + SM in all but name, or the Norway plus option as it is known under, and has repeatedly been rejected by TM as it is a very humiliating outcome to her red, white and blue Brexit. If indeed presented this way, a very big U-turn and a humbling climb down is to be seen from her, soon.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1283
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:05 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Interesting leak of the day, today... [...]
In short: this is a CU + SM in all but name, or the Norway plus option as it is known under, and has repeatedly been rejected by TM as it is a very humiliating outcome to her red, white and blue Brexit. If indeed presented this way, a very big U-turn and a humbling climb down is to be seen from her, soon.


Funny how this is *exactly* what I said would happen in the event of a Brexit result. Two years of muddle and fractious posturing but it would literally have to end up in stalemate with the UK in nearly the same trading situation... simply ceding influence of the rules governing it.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:43 am

So we buy into the rhetoric that TM was interested in leaving the EU? Every single red line that she wrote she has walked back on, but one is to believe that she really meant them?
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:53 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
In short: this is a CU + SM in all but name, or the Norway plus option as it is known under, and has repeatedly been rejected by TM as it is a very humiliating outcome to her red, white and blue Brexit. If indeed presented this way, a very big U-turn and a humbling climb down is to be seen from her, soon.


There is no way this will be accepted by the Brexiteers, though it's a political wise move (at least for TM). If true it puts the ball into the Brexiteers court which can call a leadership challenge. When lost by TM it's up to the Brexiteers to solve all issues (and she won't go down in history as the politician who messed up the UK). If won by TM they're silenced for the foreseeable future. Again, it would be a smart move by TM if true.

BTW it would make matters worse if the UK would have to pat more than it currently does. However, I hope the EU is smart enough to overplay this.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:37 pm

So soon there will be a vote for 3 options;

1. Stay as member of EU
2. CU, SM - Norway +
3. No deal brexit

I wonder how many will vote for option 3?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:43 pm

Where is the first option coming from, so far the "have cake eat cake second brigade' want a vote on whatever deal or no deal is made, so far they have not said how that affects the Mar-2019 deadline, but it should now be clear that the cake brigade is UK based, both Leave and Remain.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:15 pm

olle wrote:
So soon there will be a vote for 3 options;

1. Stay as member of EU
2. CU, SM - Norway +
3. No deal brexit

I wonder how many will vote for option 3?


You’d be surprised how many would.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:01 pm

And now, the end is near:

Because the British government - not Brussels, not the EU 27 leaders - has decided that unless there is a deal this month, the default option of a no-deal Brexit becomes the probable outcome.

“We don’t want no-deal. But because of the parliamentary timetable it becomes very hard to avoid if talks continue past this month” said a senior member of the government. “And that is why negotiation have massively shifted up a gear, with officials working through the night”.

The important dates are tomorrow, when the prime minister briefs her cabinet on the likely shape of a deal, and (probably) next Monday - which is the probable cut-off day for organising an emergency Brexit council of EU leaders.


Apologies to Sinatra :)
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:11 pm

https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa ... ard-place/

An extended discussion of what appears to be a very good set of polling. It offers a particularly useful breakdown of Conservative voters. The upshot: about half (49%) of conservative voters would be happy with a no-deal Brexit, 59% of those surveyed would prefer a delay if it meant a better deal, and by 53.5 prefer remaining if no deal to 46.5% leave with no deal.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:17 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
olle wrote:
So soon there will be a vote for 3 options;

1. Stay as member of EU
2. CU, SM - Norway +
3. No deal brexit

I wonder how many will vote for option 3?


You’d be surprised how many would.


Probably True. It would still be the clear minority.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:40 pm

olle wrote:
So soon there will be a vote for 3 options;

1. Stay as member of EU
2. CU, SM - Norway +
3. No deal brexit

I wonder how many will vote for option 3?


The problem for such a vote would be that option 3 would probably get the most votes as some of the Remain may like Norway model as well. The best thing would be to leave option 1 out of the vote, which would ensure that the Remain voters and those less passionate about leaving the EU would vote option 2.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:37 pm

LJ wrote:
olle wrote:
So soon there will be a vote for 3 options;

1. Stay as member of EU
2. CU, SM - Norway +
3. No deal brexit

I wonder how many will vote for option 3?


The problem for such a vote would be that option 3 would probably get the most votes as some of the Remain may like Norway model as well. The best thing would be to leave option 1 out of the vote, which would ensure that the Remain voters and those less passionate about leaving the EU would vote option 2.


There are several ranked voting systems to a dress the one vote, many options problem.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:17 pm

Modified borda count is a possible solution
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:33 am

I missed the Channel 4 programme last night, but the results of the polls are interesting:

In 2016 it looked like this (Blue = Leave, Yellow = Remain)
Image

Now in 2018 it looks like this:
Image

main findings are:
54% support for remain, and
a majority support for a peoples vote dependent on options offered.

Link:
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-new ... rds-remain
full data set:
https://www.survation.com/wp-content/up ... ables.xlsx
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:56 am

54% is not enough to reverse course. The vote has been cast, Brexit is coming.

Apart from that: "Some 35 per cent of people said Britain should stay in the EU in a “no-deal” scenario, and almost exactly the same proportion – 36 per cent – said the UK should leave without a deal."

The majority wants the real true Brexit.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:05 pm

Very good piece in the FT:
Brexit is teaching Britain its true place in the world

The philosophy of Brexit was that, freed of EU constraints, the UK would take its rightful place in the world. This is indeed what is happening, but alas that place is not as the great power of their imagination. The UK’s place in the world is hardly terrible but, as Mr Johnson learnt during his brief but undistinguished term as foreign secretary, our emissaries no longer bestride summits like Castlereagh.

For far too long British politicians, journalists and voters have enjoyed a patently distorted vision of the nation as indispensable world player. Now the nation is facing the painful truth that the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe. 

The hard fact is that the power imbalance has meant the UK is being forced to choose between the chaos of a no-deal Brexit or undermining the constitutional integrity of one of its four sovereign parts and signing up to a significant amount of rule-taking. This is what happens when a single country that is not America or China negotiates with a global trading bloc.

From the sequencing of the negotiations to the empty scorecard of British wins, the entire process has been a lesson in power politics. Few who saw the TV programme on America’s London embassy will forget the smirks as an US official described the British Brexit delusions: “They sort of see it as a negotiation between two equal parties.” 

While this has all been understood by serious figures in government, too much of Britain’s politics, culture and its self-image have been driven by its colonial past and the national myths built up around the last war. It is why the Brexiters cling so desperately to the theory that Theresa May has betrayed Brexit. The alternative is to accept that it is their own reckless chauvinism that has reduced the UK to the role of supplicant with its former partners.

Adjusting to a reduced status will require a reality check in our media and our politics and a touch of humility. If Brexit helps the UK come to a more accurate realisation of its global significance, some good may yet come out of this wretched business. Still, it seems an expensive way to learn a lesson.



https://www.ft.com/content/29468d52-e0e ... 22a430c1ad

That last sentence is so brutal yet holds so many truths. :lol:
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Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:02 pm

And more:A $240-Billion-a-Day Market Is Leaving London Over Brexit

I wonder how many planes ryanair needs to relocate in the UK to compensate for this....
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2656
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:52 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The Times is reporting that TM has formally proposed to the EU that the WHOLE of the UK remains in Custom Union with the EU as alternative to the NI backstop solution.


No longer just a rumour or a theoretical case study, it is now confirmed to be the official alternative from TM to the EU's NI backstop!

The whole of the UK is proposed to remain in CU with the EU, with discussions now merely focusing on how it can somehow be worded the UK can pretend that at one point it can still decide to leave that CU later, whereas it will simulateously have to agree that this CU serves as the permanent solution to the NI problem.

There's now talk of a very complicated arbitration mechanism and a bilateral panel to offer a binding advice on any proposed changes to this CU as a face saving way to the fact that this CU is to be permanent if the same inextricable problem with NI is not to re-emerge again…
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:02 pm

I have been in Paris, Belgium (where I visited the EU Parliament and related history as to the EU an currently in Amsterdam area. A minor thing that will affect UK nationals may be that those between 18 to 26 will no longer be able to get special discounts at Museums, train fares, and so on. Brit nationals will no longer be able to work in the EU.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:32 am

ltbewr wrote:
Brit nationals will no longer be able to work in the EU.


Nor nationals of EU countries in the UK without work permits.
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:34 am

Looks like another blow for the Brexidiots.....both plant closures directly related to the Brexit issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... schaeffler
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2476
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:29 am

mmo wrote:
Looks like another blow for the Brexidiots.....both plant closures directly related to the Brexit issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... schaeffler


Who would ever have thought that leaving the worlds largest trading block and imposing customs checks would have such negative impacts?

/sarcasm

This is merely the tip of the Brexit iceberg....
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:35 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Brit nationals will no longer be able to work in the EU.


Nor nationals of EU countries in the UK without work permits.


To the detriment of both sides. Since we all know the facts about EU migrants to the UK right?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 274
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:43 am

Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Brit nationals will no longer be able to work in the EU.


Nor nationals of EU countries in the UK without work permits.


To the detriment of both sides. Since we all know the facts about EU migrants to the UK right?


Good for some, bad for others
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:54 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Nor nationals of EU countries in the UK without work permits.


To the detriment of both sides. Since we all know the facts about EU migrants to the UK right?


Good for some, bad for others


Reading comprehension fail. He's saying - correctly - that it's bad for Brits like me.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:02 pm

More bad news with jobs and money leaving the UK through Brexit, yesterday the automotive sector, today the financial sector....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -of-brexit

Unfortunately its getting easier and easier to find such stories as we get closer to March....
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