Eyad89
Posts: 459
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:33 am

As I was browsing through different articles, I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic. That got me thinking, would a second referendum really undermine democracy?

Democracy is simply ruling through the will of the people. A second referendum simply reflects the will of the people at this stage now that everyone is more clear on what would really happen.

In 2016, many Europeans were angry at the EU for different reasons, notably the Syrian refugees policies. Based on the psychology of the brain, emotions and hope made many believe that 'grass is always greener on the other side' when it comes to Brexit, and so they voted that way. Now that the clouds are gone, many would simply have a change of heart now. Moreover, many of the Brexit promises may now seem less and less realistic, and the public are starting to realize that.


The questions that I would like to ask:

-Why is a 2016 referendum more democratic than a 2019 referendum? That fact that the first referendum took place in 2016 instead of 2019 was simply due to randomness, why should the fate of the country depend on randomness?
-Does the rule of democracy only apply to referendums that happened to take place first? How long can the UK wait again until a second referendum can be called 'democratic'?
-This isn't like electing officials, presidents, PMs, or senators. Elections occur periodically, and people will always have the capacity to change their minds after every few years. On the other hand, Brexit is pretty much a one-time thing. It is irreversible, yet it is the biggest decision the UK has had to make in decades. It is actually only democratic that another referendum takes place now that the promises of Brexit have changed.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:46 am

The second referendum lacks political backing anyway.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-brit ... SKCN1OX1YT
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-can-back

And to be honest, a second vote would only make sense if the politicians admit their own failure. And too many high ranking politicians have supported the Brexit and so their careers need the Brexit.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:08 am

Eyad89 wrote:
As I was browsing through different articles, I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic. That got me thinking, would a second referendum really undermine democracy?.


Well, it undermines democracy in the same way any election after the very first does. Not at all.

Now getting into a cycle where you just vote again and again and again until you get the result that you want would be a death knell for democracy, but voting after a couple of years to confirm or adjust course is what makes a democracy a democracy, we don´elect dictators for life.

But as Seahawk has pointed out. ... no political backing for that.

Aesma wrote:
The EU doesn't care that AFKL is French or Dutch or both, just like it doesn't care that IAG is British or Spanish, as long as all the countries involved are in the EU. Keeping KLM Dutch is only a consideration for third countries, for very different reasons.


And those third countries have to buy into that argument. They can just decide "no, this doesn´t cut it, it is not Dutch anymore", but apparently no one has the moxie to do that with one of the three global Elephants. A country that sees an advantage in deciding that BA is not a UK airline anymore after structure has changed to make IB more spanisch, will decide just that.

Ownership and control requirements for Airlines using traffic rights is at the leisure or the nation you fly to, that Governments usually go along is Realpolitik, not the airlines freedom to design their ownership structure.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
Posts: 4615
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The EU doesn't care that AFKL is French or Dutch or both, just like it doesn't care that IAG is British or Spanish, as long as all the countries involved are in the EU. Keeping KLM Dutch is only a consideration for third countries, for very different reasons.


And those third countries have to buy into that argument. They can just decide "no, this doesn´t cut it, it is not Dutch anymore", but apparently no one has the moxie to do that with one of the three global Elephants. A country that sees an advantage in deciding that BA is not a UK airline anymore after structure has changed to make IB more spanisch, will decide just that.


The difference is that bilateral air service agreements talk about "ownership" only whilst the EU regulation is about "effective control".

In other news, Ryanair has secured an UK AOC and thus are hard Brexit proof,

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-welcomes-caas-issuing-of-uk-aoc-for-ryanair-uk/

WizzAir is reported to have an UK AOC as well as does easyJet have an Austrian AOC.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am

LJ wrote:
The difference is that bilateral air service agreements talk about "ownership" only whilst the EU regulation is about "effective control". .


For me as a German speaker those two terms don´t really mean anything different. If i own something, i control it. My be different for native Englisch use or in other languages.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:23 am

No, even in Germany there is a difference. You can own 51% of a company, but if the other 49% are owned by another entity that also has given loans to the company, you might not have effective control, as if looking at the balance sheet, as you only have 51% of the assets, but the other entity has 49% of the assets but maybe 80% of the liabilities as well.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 16306
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:25 am

Aesma wrote:
Image


If only we'd seen that before the referendum, Brexit would have been a slam-dunk majority. :wink2: :banghead:

The sad thing is, there are idiots that believe it. :faint:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:39 am

seahawk wrote:
No, even in Germany there is a difference. You can own 51% of a company, but if the other 49% are owned by another entity that also has given loans to the company, you might not have effective control, as if looking at the balance sheet, as you only have 51% of the assets, but the other entity has 49% of the assets but maybe 80% of the liabilities as well.


Oh, from a technical standpoint i agree, the bank that keeps me afloat does of course have some control over my business, but that is not how it is used in practice, is it? Air Berlin would have its traffic rights revoked a long, long time ago before going under because seeing them as anything but Etihads bitch towards the end takes some metal gymnastics. Not being majority owner and still having effective control apparently has to be very, very blunt and obvious before it urks out a difference between owning and controlling. And if i own 51% of a company there are not many shots i can´t call, unless specifically limited at the 5% and 25% level.

But that is truly a different story. I guess we may, in case Brexit does happen, find out how exactly the EU and 3rd countries will handle it.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:47 am

If the liabilities are from a bank, it is not a problem, if the liabilities are from the second entity (like in the Air Berlin case) it becomes more interesting. It is not so uncommon for shady building projects, when the second entity´s name has been burned before.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1354
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am

Eyad89 wrote:
As I was browsing through different articles, I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic. That got me thinking, would a second referendum really undermine democracy?


The UK is a parliamentary democracy. A government making huge constitutional changes to the nation without proper oversight by parliament, based on the marginal result of an advisory referendum is therefore undemocratic for many different reasons.

Oh wait...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
LJ
Posts: 4615
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
LJ wrote:
The difference is that bilateral air service agreements talk about "ownership" only whilst the EU regulation is about "effective control". .


For me as a German speaker those two terms don´t really mean anything different. If i own something, i control it. My be different for native Englisch use or in other languages.


When you own an airline, it means that you have more than 50% of the shares. You control a company when you own 50% or more of the voting rights. However, you have "effective control" if the company cannot operate without the other company and all decisions are made by the other company. This means you look beyond just the shareholder structure, but also look if a company can operate independently from another company. For example, if all the strategic and/or operational decisions for Iberia are made by IAG, then IAG effectively controls Iberia. Therefore, IAG must demonstrate that Iberia can make operational and strategic decisions independently from IAG.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:54 pm

LJ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
LJ wrote:
The difference is that bilateral air service agreements talk about "ownership" only whilst the EU regulation is about "effective control". .


For me as a German speaker those two terms don´t really mean anything different. If i own something, i control it. My be different for native Englisch use or in other languages.


When you own an airline, it means that you have more than 50% of the shares. You control a company when you own 50% or more of the voting rights. However, you have "effective control" if the company cannot operate without the other company and all decisions are made by the other company. This means you look beyond just the shareholder structure, but also look if a company can operate independently from another company. For example, if all the strategic and/or operational decisions for Iberia are made by IAG, then IAG effectively controls Iberia. Therefore, IAG must demonstrate that Iberia can make operational and strategic decisions independently from IAG.


*click* that makes sense. Thanks. I still wonder how one can proof that objectively, without being open to court challenges. Sounds almost like it requires a black box law firm screening all communication just as in certain R&D projects.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 16306
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:14 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic.


Goldilocks democracy! :rotfl:

People demand democracy must be respected, but apparently more democracy would be a bad thing. :spin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
LJ
Posts: 4615
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
*click* that makes sense. Thanks. I still wonder how one can proof that objectively, without being open to court challenges. Sounds almost like it requires a black box law firm screening all communication just as in certain R&D projects.


It's indeed a very tricky thing, hence why the article mentions that IAG expects to meet the conditions. This is also why airlines like Lufthansa, AF/KL and others may file a compliant against IAG (wouldn't be the first time this would happen). As for gathering evidence, a company has to submit this to the regulator upon request. Moreover, I recall that IAG would need to demonstrate it meets the ownership requirements if the EU has substantial reason to believe it doesn't comply. It therefore doesn't help if IAG would purchase the aircraft for Iberia......
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10738
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:19 pm

I agree that a new referendum could be more or less democratic depending on the timing, and what has happened since the previous one. It is also not very democratic to do the opposite of what a referendum result has given, like many people in France consider happened with the Lisbon Treaty after the "No" to the 2005 referendum.

Here I believe the UK government has tried to deliver Brexit, showing great incompetence along the way, but it has tried, this has led to much more information on the issue being disseminated among the public, so a new referendum would be perfectly democratic.

Arch brexiters will argue the exact opposite though, that May was a remainer all along, that she got the worst possible deal on purpose so that remaining would be the only option, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sbworcs
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic.


Goldilocks democracy! :rotfl:

People demand democracy must be respected, but apparently more democracy would be a bad thing. :spin:


I did see an interview where this was put to a Brexiteer - the answer was that democracy, taking back control and sovereignty of parliament are all good things but only when Brexit has happened - it was never mean to be part of the process! :banghead:
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic.


Goldilocks democracy! :rotfl:

People demand democracy must be respected, but apparently more democracy would be a bad thing. :spin:



Neverendums are like self-licking ice cream for the vocal minority.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6843
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:45 am

Eyad89 wrote:
As I was browsing through different articles, I saw some folks claim that a second referendum would be undemocratic. That got me thinking, would a second referendum really undermine democracy? …..

….-Why is a 2016 referendum more democratic than a 2019 referendum? That fact that the first referendum took place in 2016 instead of 2019 was simply due to randomness, why should the fate of the country depend on randomness? .....

Yeah, it looks somewhat strange. But let me explain: Brexit has long time ago evolved beyond rules of democracy. It has become a religious issue. When you analyze the various arguments, then you will find that they fit very well with medieval religious wars. For half of the population the EU is the devil himself. The really sad thing is that the UK has never before been as divided as today.

DR - the Danish BBC - told yesterday:
British police to be Brexit-trained. Almost 1000 British police officers are to be trained to handle riots which may happen if Britain leaves the EU without an agreement. That writes the British newspaper The Guardian.....

The name of the country "United Kingdom" is becoming a joke in line with former East Germany - "German Democratic Republic". And now they are even trying to keep the country intact and "united" the same way. Hopefully they won't be trained the same way as the East German Stasi.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 16306
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:31 am

sbworcs wrote:
I did see an interview where this was put to a Brexiteer - the answer was that democracy, taking back control and sovereignty of parliament are all good things but only when Brexit has happened - it was never mean to be part of the process! :banghead:


Of all the empty Brexiteer slogans and catchphrases "sovereignty of Parliament" is the funniest. When the courts ruled that indeed Parliament must be sovereign and vote on Brexit, the Brexiteers had quite the meltdown. :rotfl:

It was nearly as funny as Brexiteers wanting an end to the freedom of movement, then complaining when they find movement to the EU may not be free. :banghead:

A101 wrote:
Neverendums are like self-licking ice cream for the vocal minority.


As opposed to a vote where everyone actually understands what the options on the table are (rather than a vague notion of rainbows, unicorns and pots of gold)?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:

DR - the Danish BBC - told yesterday:
British police to be Brexit-trained. Almost 1000 British police officers are to be trained to handle riots which may happen if Britain leaves the EU without an agreement. That writes the British newspaper The Guardian.....


The name of the country "United Kingdom" is becoming a joke in line with former East Germany - "German Democratic Republic". And now they are even trying to keep the country intact and "united" the same way. Hopefully they won't be trained the same way as the East German Stasi.


Interesting I didn't know that the UK had the monopoly on using the police to quell riots,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31938592

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 67287.html

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/ri ... c13d587f2b

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... clash.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... eases.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... Spain.html

Geez bit of a pattern here using the police force to keep the law and order of ones National laws
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 am

scbriml wrote:

As opposed to a vote where everyone actually understands what the options on the table are (rather than a vague notion of rainbows, unicorns and pots of gold)?


There's only two options TM vasal state which is not an exit, or trade under WTO until an FTA is done

At the time of the referendum they could not present options as it was either in or out, it wasn't in EU provisions or interest to do so prior was it
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7394
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:03 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

As opposed to a vote where everyone actually understands what the options on the table are (rather than a vague notion of rainbows, unicorns and pots of gold)?


There's only two options TM vasal state which is not an exit, or trade under WTO until an FTA is done

At the time of the referendum they could not present options as it was either in or out, it wasn't in EU provisions or interest to do so prior was it


You frame it as not being an exit, but it is an exit. You might not like the exit, but there it is. And that is the core of the problem, nobody voted for a certain kind of Brexit, just for a whelm of possible Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:24 am

Dutchy wrote:

You frame it as not being an exit, but it is an exit. You might not like the exit, but there it is. And that is the core of the problem, nobody voted for a certain kind of Brexit, just for a whelm of possible Brexit.


Being tied to EU rules under TM agreement is not an exit

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... it-deal-eu

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -agreement


And it seems all is not rosy within,
https://admin.express.co.uk/news/world/ ... xit-latest?
Last edited by A101 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7394
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:28 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You frame it as not being an exit, but it is an exit. You might not like the exit, but there it is. And that is the core of the problem, nobody voted for a certain kind of Brexit, just for a whelm of possible Brexit.


Being tied to EU rules under TM agreement is not an exit

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... it-deal-eu


And it seems all is not rosy within,
https://admin.express.co.uk/news/world/ ... xit-latest?


That's a political verdict.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:45 am

prebennorholm wrote:
But let me explain: Brexit has long time ago evolved beyond rules of democracy. It has become a religious issue. When you analyze the various arguments, then you will find that they fit very well with medieval religious wars. For half of the population the EU is the devil himself. The really sad thing is that the UK has never before been as divided as today.


Very well said. And very sad indeed for the non-believers...(i.e. the remainers)
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 16306
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:03 pm

A101 wrote:
There's only two options TM vasal state which is not an exit, or trade under WTO until an FTA is done

At the time of the referendum they could not present options as it was either in or out, it wasn't in EU provisions or interest to do so prior was it


The wording on the referendum had nothing to do with the EU, it was the Government's decision. The Brexit situation were clear since before the referendum to anyone who cared to try and understand the real options, instead all we got from Brexiteers were lies - "easiest trade deals ever", "£350 million extra for NHS per week", "they need us more than we need them", etc.

As to choice - next to no chance the Government's deal (contrary to populist phraseology, it's not "May's deal") will be approved by Parliament and nobody other than extremists wants a no-deal crash. Cries of "WTO" only come from those that don't appear to understand, or don't care about, the implications and consequences.

So - Parliament will not pass the WA as it stands (and it won't change); Parliament will also vote down a no-deal crash. Parliament cannot agree wtf to do, so it needs to go back to the people with an option to remain. Why are Brexiteers so afraid of this? :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
LJ
Posts: 4615
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:21 pm

A101 wrote:
Being tied to EU rules under TM agreement is not an exit


And you really believe that you could have a FTA with the EU without being tied to the EU rules? Sounds pretty arrogant. Or are you planning to revisit your previous statement (or at least the latter part)?

A101 wrote:
There's only two options TM vasal state which is not an exit, or trade under WTO until an FTA is done
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1354
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
Cries of "WTO" only come from those that don't appear to understand, or don't care about, the implications and consequences.


One of the BBC stories yesterday had something like "The only solution is WTO now! Same as the rest of the world..." as the top-rated comment. That means a majority of people commenting & voting on that discussion have absolutely no clue that Mauritania - made up almost entirely of Saharan desert - is the *ONLY COUNTRY ON EARTH* trading solely under WTO terms. Everyone else has additional free trade agreements with others - just like the UK currently does as part of the EU.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
sbworcs
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:27 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Cries of "WTO" only come from those that don't appear to understand, or don't care about, the implications and consequences.


One of the BBC stories yesterday had something like "The only solution is WTO now! Same as the rest of the world..." as the top-rated comment. That means a majority of people commenting & voting on that discussion have absolutely no clue that Mauritania - made up almost entirely of Saharan desert - is the *ONLY COUNTRY ON EARTH* trading solely under WTO terms. Everyone else has additional free trade agreements with others - just like the UK currently does as part of the EU.


Oh i think they know it - it is just convenient to forget it whilst shouting that WTO is the great saviour in all of this pending the utopia that is undoubtedly just around the corner
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:40 pm

I had mentioned this earlier, but here are my reasons in more detail. This is a divisive issue, and GB is truly closely divided. Hence the PM and Parliament need to build some confidence and consensus. This requires minimal cooperation of the two major parties.

May has come up with the best deal possible for Brexit. There should be a free vote. Members of Parliament need, both before and after the vote campaign in their districts as to how and why they will vote. I assume the deal will be voted down by a substantial majority. Following that vote a referendum needs to take place, Either a hard Brexit (and WTO rules) or Remain. If it is to be Brexit, GB needs to plea to the EU for a couple more years to switch over to WTO status with the rest of Europe.

North Ireland needs to be cast aside, we don't need more hundreds of deaths in Ireland and GB including London. To no good end. North Ireland can remain in the EU pretty much on the terms the EU has already outlined, part of GB, but in the customs union. And something similar for Gibraltar and etcetera.

Who would be against such a vote, on the Brexit side the One Man, One Vote One Time Putin inspired rightists, and on the political side the ego driven political leaders.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:09 pm

I think it will be the hard Brexit. Corbyn will try to bring May down and the Brexiteers will want the same. Return to the WTO rules and the good old days of Britain, where you ordered your tea from India with a telegram - and you got it delivered 3 months later.
 
LJ
Posts: 4615
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If it is to be Brexit, GB needs to plea to the EU for a couple more years to switch over to WTO status with the rest of Europe.


Why would the EU accept this plea? Despite the consequences for both EU and UK, I think that when the UK opts for a hard Brexit, we should move to that situation as soon as possible. It makes no sense to delay the process for more than necessary (maybe an unwounding period till December 31st makes sense, but not any longer). It's bad for business as they need clarity. Moreover, the UK will be a third country in the event of a Brexit after March 29th. A long transition period will have consequences in the way other third countries will look upon the EU, and thus the EU cannot give the UK too much extra time.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:47 pm

There are maybe hundreds of issues which need to be settled and new treaties arranged. But limited numbers of skilled negotiators available. GB needs to expand all of the civil service workers for all the agencies which heretofore have been done in the EU. In case of Brexit a time schedule for all of those issues can likely be agreed upon by December. But I think a smooth withdraw will take a while. It will be complicated.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
LJ
Posts: 4615
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
There are maybe hundreds of issues which need to be settled and new treaties arranged. But limited numbers of skilled negotiators available. GB needs to expand all of the civil service workers for all the agencies which heretofore have been done in the EU. In case of Brexit a time schedule for all of those issues can likely be agreed upon by December. But I think a smooth withdraw will take a while. It will be complicated.


Yet this is not the problem for the EU. The UK could have hired civil servants, custom officials and prepare for a hard Brexit in advance. Moreover, EU regulation sometimes forbids non-EU nationals working for an EU institution. The EU contingency plan is quite clear on what will happen in case of a hard Brexit. Don't expect anything else other than the measures mentioned in the plan as I doubt any EU member state or EU parliament will care about the UK in a no-deal Brexit (the text of the contingency plan was surprisingly non-diplomatic). Should Mays plan be accepted than the provisions of that agreement will come into force.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:02 pm

LJ wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
There are maybe hundreds of issues which need to be settled and new treaties arranged. But limited numbers of skilled negotiators available. GB needs to expand all of the civil service workers for all the agencies which heretofore have been done in the EU. In case of Brexit a time schedule for all of those issues can likely be agreed upon by December. But I think a smooth withdraw will take a while. It will be complicated.


Yet this is not the problem for the EU. The UK could have hired civil servants, custom officials and prepare for a hard Brexit in advance.


They have
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:30 pm

scbriml wrote:

The wording on the referendum had nothing to do with the EU, it was the Government's decision.


Have I said that the EU had any input in the Question?

The Question was clear and simple from the beginning

scbriml wrote:
The Brexit situation were clear since before the referendum to anyone who cared to try and understand the real options, instead all we got from Brexiteers were lies - "easiest trade deals ever", "£350 million extra for NHS per week", "they need us more than we need them", etc.


yes Brexit had a clear objective for both remainer's and leavers, their should not be a vassal state option.

scbriml wrote:
As to choice - next to no chance the Government's deal (contrary to populist phraseology, it's not "May's deal") will be approved by Parliament and nobody other than extremists wants a no-deal crash. Cries of "WTO" only come from those that don't appear to understand, or don't care about, the implications and consequences.


The UK was always going to have to go down the WTO route unless a suitable agreement was reached before hand that meant a FTA in that time frame, the EU was never going to accommodate that for an orderly transition which they said many a time.

scbriml wrote:
So - Parliament will not pass the WA as it stands (and it won't change); Parliament will also vote down a no-deal crash. Parliament cannot agree wtf to do, so it needs to go back to the people with an option to remain.



Which had to also satisfy to the majority of parliament, for TM its either crash or crash thru over her WA. On any second referendum the only options that could be put on the table are either TM WA or WTO rules

scbriml wrote:
Why are Brexiteers so afraid of this?


The referendum to either leave or remain has already taken place, why cant you accept the will of the UK referendum result?
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:47 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think it will be the hard Brexit. Corbyn will try to bring May down and the Brexiteers will want the same. Return to the WTO rules and the good old days of Britain, where you ordered your tea from India with a telegram - and you got it delivered 3 months later.



Are you disparaging India and that it has not evolved with the times since independence in 1947?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:56 pm

A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think it will be the hard Brexit. Corbyn will try to bring May down and the Brexiteers will want the same. Return to the WTO rules and the good old days of Britain, where you ordered your tea from India with a telegram - and you got it delivered 3 months later.



Are you disparaging India and that it has not evolved with the times since independence in 1947?


I talk about the glorious days of the Empire, when nobody cared about WTO or such things. Trade still functioned. One can always go back to those times.
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:00 pm

seahawk wrote:

I talk about the glorious days of the Empire, when nobody cared about WTO or such things. Trade still functioned. One can always go back to those times.



No ones talking about the British Empire expect you, that say's a lot on how you perceive the UK post Brexit.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:12 pm

A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

I talk about the glorious days of the Empire, when nobody cared about WTO or such things. Trade still functioned. One can always go back to those times.



No ones talking about the British Empire expect you, that say's a lot on how you perceive the UK post Brexit.


You mean, strong powerful and of global importance? Yes, indeed.
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:49 pm

seahawk wrote:

You mean, strong powerful and of global importance? Yes, indeed.



Oh that's right Germany lost her colonial influence in 1914, but I guess we shouldn't rule out France either here and not to disappoint the USA for having overseas Territories and dependent Areas, well how about we include the Dutch, New Zealand and Australia in the mix, don't want to disappoint anyone
 
A3801000
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:56 pm

"LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Theresa May might again push back a final vote in parliament on her Brexit deal"

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-brit ... SKCN1OZ0NA
 
Bostrom
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:13 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Cries of "WTO" only come from those that don't appear to understand, or don't care about, the implications and consequences.


One of the BBC stories yesterday had something like "The only solution is WTO now! Same as the rest of the world..." as the top-rated comment. That means a majority of people commenting & voting on that discussion have absolutely no clue that Mauritania - made up almost entirely of Saharan desert - is the *ONLY COUNTRY ON EARTH* trading solely under WTO terms. Everyone else has additional free trade agreements with others - just like the UK currently does as part of the EU.


Except that Mauritania export duty free and quota free to the EU under the Everything But Arms-scheme.
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:47 am

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
Being tied to EU rules under TM agreement is not an exit


And you really believe that you could have a FTA with the EU without being tied to the EU rules? Sounds pretty arrogant. Or are you planning to revisit your previous statement (or at least the latter part)?

A101 wrote:
There's only two options TM vasal state which is not an exit, or trade under WTO until an FTA is done


The Arrogance where's the arrogance?

I think your missing the point on what an FTA is, "they are treaties between two or more countries designed to reduce or eliminate certain barriers to trade and investment, and to facilitate stronger trade and commercial ties between participating countries".

In this case of Brexit, it re-establishes autonomy on how the UK interacts with third countries without interference from outside sovereign laws of the UK (EU) and for good or bad those decisions are wholly made with UK interest at heart.


Its a fact that the WA means the UK effectively stays in the EU with no say, gee that's really taking back control.

Its a Clayton withdrawal agreement, the agreement you have when you don't have an agreement

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... -it-means/


The single customs territory is basically another name for a temporary customs union and, if it were needed, it would ensure that completely frictionless trade could continue across the Irish border. But it would also prevent the UK implementing any trade deals with other countries around the world that involve removing tariffs on goods.

That upsets supporters of Brexit, especially as there is no guaranteed route out of this backstop unless the EU gives its consent. The Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland was the toughest part of the draft agreement to negotiate and, now it has been published, it has triggered a series of government resignations.




https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46237012
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:17 am

A101 wrote:
I think your missing the point on what an FTA is, "they are treaties between two or more countries designed to reduce or eliminate certain barriers to trade and investment, and to facilitate stronger trade and commercial ties between participating countries".


I think you're missing the point, an FTA with the EU means following the EU's rules. You know, the one's designed to "reduce or eliminate barriers", the one's we already abide by as part of the EU, the one's EEA members abide by. You won't get a FTA as 3rd country without agreeing to those rules. To think otherwise is a. deluded or b. very arrogant indeed.

Why do #brexitbellends still seem oblivious to the downright obvious?

Taking back control though....with easy to make deals.. :roll: :rotfl:
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:03 am

The Gatestone Institute (Geo-Political) has numerous articles on this topic.
There was an interesting article in Gatestone last December, here's a link: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1346 ... som-brexit

On a lighter note, here's what Paul Watson, of You-Tube recently shared:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21n-toA641c
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
A101
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:33 am

ChrisKen wrote:

I think you're missing the point, an FTA with the EU means following the EU's rules. You know, the one's designed to "reduce or eliminate barriers", the one's we already abide by as part of the EU, the one's EEA members abide by. You won't get a FTA as 3rd country without agreeing to those rules. To think otherwise is a. deluded or b. very arrogant indeed.



So do you think all those countries that have FTA with the EU have given up sovereignty? I was not aware third countries have pissed away there sovereign courts jurisdictions to the ECJ, nor have they taken all four key principles of the EU: the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour

FTA's have to meet to respect and meet the laws of the land in both countries not just the EU, your also forgetting that the UK wont just trade within the EU. Brexit returns sovereignty in all jurisdictions back to the UK 100% in all matters
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:37 am

double
Last edited by seahawk on Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7689
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:39 am

A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

You mean, strong powerful and of global importance? Yes, indeed.



Oh that's right Germany lost her colonial influence in 1914, but I guess we shouldn't rule out France either here and not to disappoint the USA for having overseas Territories and dependent Areas, well how about we include the Dutch, New Zealand and Australia in the mix, don't want to disappoint anyone

I do not know what you are saying, I am saying that trade flowed long before the EU existed and it will flow again when the UK is back in control again.

And it seems like the population wants the hard Brexit. 64% of the Torries support it.

https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-ha ... l-11598348

Bring it!!
 
A3801000
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:52 am

A101 wrote:

So do you think all those countries that have FTA with the EU have given up sovereignty? I was not aware third countries have pissed away there sovereign courts jurisdictions to the ECJ, nor have they taken all four key principles of the EU: the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour


Which cases did upset you the most where the ECJ decided in case of a British court?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ltbewr, speedbird217 and 61 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos