As I said, this will rest on if they can successfully separate it from the Saudi leadership.

Tugger wrote:

Honestly the question is if this can be disconnected from the top Saudi leadership. I.e. it was an operation that was not sanctioned. That is bad enough, if Saudi leadership can't control their internal forces. But this will have repercussions.

And for the record I do think this was as "official" and sanctioned as such a task can be. So the damage control will be the key. Who in Saudi Arabia will be sacrificed for this and suffer the consequences.

Tugg

They are doing that.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/19/middleea ... index.html

Tugg

That crisis management BS may sell CNN, which has been soft peddling this story from day one, but more astute observers will see it for the charade it is. If the world accepts this cop out, all the "guilty" will be re-rehabilitated in a short time and every thinking person knows this.

Turkey's reaction will be interesting.

Let's recapitulate:
On the day Mr. Khashoggi's appointment in the Saudi consulate, no less than 15 people (several holding diplomatic passports) fly out from SA to IST on 2 government planes, send all Turkish staff home, take control of the consul's office and in his presence torture, kill and chop up Khashoggi, after which they take his remains to the consul's private house a street block away and then fly back home as if nothing had happened, and yet the Saudi version is this was just a quarrel between Mr. Khashoggi and some staff accidentally gone rough?
Seriously, how stupid do you need to be to believe this?
People flying around internationally on government planes and taking control of a diplomatic station don't just do this on their own: they can only do so because they have autorisation from the highest level of government.
Besides, how could they know about the appointment unless it was told to them by the consul, meaning he must have been under previous instructions to do so...
And why bring a pathologist with a chainsaw with you in the first place?
Besides, one thing they havent 'cleared up' in their official version: where is citizen Khashoggi's body???

News from Turkey tonight has it the Turkish secret services not only hold audio but also VIDEO material from inside the consulate and thus know exactly what happened and are seriously considering bringing more of it out if the Saudis don't do so themselves.... this story isn't over yet, it seems, and it's pure horror in fact as apparently the aim was not just to kill, but very much to torture Mr.Khashoggi first, too. If these video's are indeed released, quite a few people will have a very very hard time trying to talk around this.

sabenapilot wrote:

this story isn't over

I'll say not.

Saudi Arabia's account of Jamal Khashoggi's killing is widely denounced
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jamal-khash ... denounced/

A Saudi Prince’s Fairy Tale
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/20/opini ... ammed.html

the Saudis have a new story with a glaring hole
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... aring-hole

And on and on

Are we living in the Twilight Zone? If not, than this is of an enormous absurdity and amateurism ever conceived.
Just imagine Putin inviting Skripal into the Russian embassy in London and chop him up! That's insane. I mean, Putin is not the good guy, but at least he has some brain and decorum left.

And Trump expects us to believe it.

salttee wrote:

And Trump expects us to believe it.

What’s really strange is the comments regarding it. I can’t openly speak out against the guy but even as a “conservative”, his comments are troubling.

He was asked if he found the account credible and replied “I do”.... seriously? Hellen Keller could have seen the holes in this and know exactly what happened. I digress, he “has” to take that stance. Not necessarily because of his own business dealings but because of the strategery of their stance in the west.

Until the west becomes self reliant on energy, we will continue to suck the Middle East tit and there’s no way around it. KSA is in fact one of the largest oil exporters in the world and has us all by the balls.

I do believe Trump has a history of spins and lies (and I lean conservative FWIW), but seriously... can anyone really say with the way we are so reliant on KSA that Killary or Bernie would behave any other way?

I despise KSA’s history of human rights violations but in all reality, this isn’t anything new for them. Why the outrage all of a sudden? He wasn’t an American citizen, wasn’t at an American consulate or even a foreign consulate in America. What’s our business in it? He was an outspoken critic of a country that leads the world in human rights violations and stupidly entered their territory (sort of) in another country also known for human rights violations. Seems pretty ignorant to me.

ATCtower wrote:

Until the west becomes self reliant on energy, we will continue to suck the Middle East tit and there’s no way around it. KSA is in fact one of the largest oil exporters in the world and has us all by the balls.

I do believe Trump has a history of spins and lies (and I lean conservative FWIW), but seriously... can anyone really say with the way we are so reliant on KSA that Killary or Bernie would behave any other way?.

That explanation only flew as long as the US was dependent on Oil imports. Now it is pretty clear that the Saudis bribe their way out of trouble. I would expect Saudi government expenditure in Trump properties will be way up.

Best regards
Thomas

ATCtower wrote:

he “has” to take that stance. Not necessarily because of his own business dealings but because of the strategery of their stance in the west.

Our policies or lack of policies in the ME have no "strategy" that I can discern and I'm pretty knowledgeable and I've been looking pretty hard. Or strategy in the ME isn't a ME strategy, it is a getting re-elected strategy, and that means kissing up to AIPAC at all times. This means that our national "strategy" is not to act in the best interests of the United States, or in the best interests of mankind, or the best interests of justice; our strategy in the ME is to affect whatever policies the right wing faction in Israel chooses for us. And while doing that, to maintain the falsehood that Israel is our ally and our best friend in the ME. We are Israel's ally, but if the winds of change ever make it in their interests, you can count on them walking away from any perceived obligation from us.

Enough about that.

ATCtower wrote:

Until the west becomes self reliant on energy, we will continue to suck the Middle East tit and there’s no way around it. KSA is in fact one of the largest oil exporters in the world and has us all by the balls.

This concept you have of anybody "sucking the Middle East tit" may sound clever (as so many right wing sayings do) but it is a false metaphor and seeing the world oil situation through that metaphor will lead you astray, to say the least. Oil is oil, it matters not where it comes from, other than the world market is adjusted so that heavy crude goes to refineries that best handle heavy crude and so on, but Saudi crude isn't the most sought after in the long run, there's nothing special about Saudi crude. Even saying "ME oil" muddys the picture; the other countries in the region are not under Saudi direction, the only oil the Saudi's control is their own.

Understand that nobody is suggesting that we boycott Saudi oil; that isn't an issue. The only way Saudi oil would be taken off the market is if the Saudi's do it themselves: don't hold your breath. Saudi Arabia may "control" about 9% of the oil that flows into the US, but western interests control 100% of the money that flow into Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is more dependent on western money flow than we are to Saudi oil flow. The 15,000 member Saud family will tolerate many things as long as the money keeps flowing in but if the money flow even hints at choking up. MbS will be tarred and feathered and sent back to a tent in the desert. We have all the power in any confrontation of any kind with Saudi Arabia - don't forget it.

But there is a backdrop even to the story thus far. We are currently in the process of blockading two of the biggest potential oil producers on the planet: Russia and Iran. And a third major source of oil is being held on ice because the US is trying to steal it (for want of a better word) this is taking place in Syria.

Any threat of cutting off oil by MbS is laughable.

ATCtower wrote:

Why the outrage all of a sudden? He wasn’t an American citizen, wasn’t at an American consulate or even a foreign consulate in America. What’s our business in it? He was an outspoken critic of a country that leads the world in human rights violations and stupidly entered their territory (sort of) in another country also known for human rights violations. Seems pretty ignorant to me.

How do you come to throw the fact that "wasn’t at an American consulate or even a foreign consulate in America" into your evaluation? Why not also rant that your favorite movie star wasn't even present?

The story is what it is, the Saudis callously butchered an international journalist, a resident of the US, who was working for a major US news outlet in a diplomatic compound without any legal justification. The Saudi's are "ours" we are the ones shielding them; we have culpability. And there's a backstory behind that too. Our current loose cannon president is engaged in an unprecedented (for the US) war with the news media, he just yesterday congratulated a swine who had bodyslammed a working journalist; he congratulated the pig for the physical attack on the journalist. In case you don't know it journalists are our only window into the workings of government, without journalists and journalism we are powerless against any abuse of power taken by our "leaders". You really need to give that some thought.

One last thing. Your callous shallow remark about Khosaggie 'stupidly entering their territory' is on a parallel with the inhuman beast that celebrates the deaths of 17 of what appears to really nice people in the limo accident; the creep contends they deserved to die because they weren't wearing seat belts (last current post in the NY accident thread). Khosaggie went into the Saudi consulate to get a wedding license.

What's wrong with you "conservatives", when did you lose your humanity?

Khashoggi is doing far more damage to the Saudi rulers in death, than he ever was going to be able to do alive and writing for a western media outlet. He apparently took a lot of time to plan his visit to the consulate and set up his fancy watch to not only record, but broadcast to another device, whatever was going to happen while in the consulate. The man knew exactly what he was doing and the risks involved, it's just a shame his fiancee took so long to go to the Turkish police, they may have well caught them red handed. As it is, the pressure seems to be building on the Saudis, pathetic excuses for his death will likely do little to appease the international community, it just remains to be seen how far they will push the Saudis, if at all.

The more worrying thing for the Saudi royals will be if the general population is up to date on what is happening, I realise that's unlikely though. But it would appear that the young prince may not get to be king after this debacle.

This man's grisly end sounds like a SAW movie, which in a way it is, Saudis At Work.
Agree with the point about in death causing more potential damage to Saudi than he could alive, something that a cossetted, oblivious to the outside world, modern day spoiled brat as ruler did not consider. Both of them that is, Trump and the Crown Prince Of Saudi.

There is no doubt that the leadership of SA intended to murder Khashogi to shut him up and in turn intimidate anyone, especially other competing factions of the Saud family who challenges them with any bit of truth of their corruption, abuses, repression to keep their access to oil money and power.

The security services in SA had been monitoring him for years, watching his every move no matter where he was to make sure he didn't go too far and if did, to silence him. They likely had standing orders to murder him, were waiting for what they thought was a good moment, knowing he was planning to visit the SA consulate at least a day ahead to pick up some paperwork to get married in Turkey. The Security Services figured that diplomatic immunity would allow them to get away with murder at the consulate. Problem is that this decision forgot the constant monitoring of Turkish security agencies of the consulate area, his fiancee in the car waiting for him, as well as the stupid audacity of doing a murder in such a place.

It is often said that the cover up is a bigger crime than the initial act. The SA leadership is trying to cover up in a stupidly clumsy way like the similarly stupid act of murder and silencing of Khashogi. Pres. Trump is also an enabler of the cover up due to conflicting personal finances and political interest of the USA in the ME region. Sanctions are impossible to impose due to the oversized control of the oil markets and pricing, the web of investments of SA in the USA and the world, that many would rather have the current regime in SA control it and in turn the top historical sites of the Islamic faith rather than Iran be the big power player in the region.

GDB wrote:

This man's grisly end sounds like a SAW movie, which in a way it is, Saudis At Work.
Agree with the point about in death causing more potential damage to Saudi than he could alive, something that a cossetted, oblivious to the outside world, modern day spoiled brat as ruler did not consider. Both of them that is, Trump and the Crown Prince Of Saudi.

How does Trump have anything to do with the act. Come on.

trpmb6 wrote:

GDB wrote:

This man's grisly end sounds like a SAW movie, which in a way it is, Saudis At Work.
Agree with the point about in death causing more potential damage to Saudi than he could alive, something that a cossetted, oblivious to the outside world, modern day spoiled brat as ruler did not consider. Both of them that is, Trump and the Crown Prince Of Saudi.

How does Trump have anything to do with the act. Come on.

Nothing.

However, how the U.S reacts and what the consequences are for Saudi Arabia, will have a lot to do with Trump. Will personal gain get in the way of any meaningful sanctions imposed, if any ?

Really, who cares if this guy got murdered. It's not like he didn't know that if you pulled the tigers tail hard enough, it would turn on him with vengeance. Many people die every year for lessor stupid behavior. Not worth the alternatives IMO. The Dems will try and make Trump look evil where there is little connection. Not sure what they would have the US do, other than throw in the towel and write the whole ME off as a bad dream. On 2nd thought that might be a good idea at that.

jupiter2 wrote:

Nothing.

However, how the U.S reacts and what the consequences are for Saudi Arabia, will have a lot to do with Trump. Will personal gain get in the way of any meaningful sanctions imposed, if any ?

Personal gain got in the way already. Nobody will lose on $100bln contracts because of some journalist. There are many more such journalists and bloggers left.

jupiter2 wrote:

Will personal gain get in the way of any meaningful sanctions imposed, if any ?

We didn’t impose sanctions after they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens....

trpmb6 wrote:

GDB wrote:

This man's grisly end sounds like a SAW movie, which in a way it is, Saudis At Work.
Agree with the point about in death causing more potential damage to Saudi than he could alive, something that a cossetted, oblivious to the outside world, modern day spoiled brat as ruler did not consider. Both of them that is, Trump and the Crown Prince Of Saudi.

How does Trump have anything to do with the act. Come on.

Why not find out just how much Trump is with, money wise, the Saudi's.
This is aside from the closeness across admins for decades, in this instance, is about HIS personal enrichment. (No surprise there, that is what everything is about with him).
And his Son In Law.
That is why he has been prior to this, butt kissing them more than other US Presidents, why his Muslim ban seemed not to address where 15 and 19 9/11 hijackers and much of the money came from.
And why he is the only Western leader to give any credence to the BS story the Saudi's are trying to spin, again, something he is familiar with.

ATCtower wrote:

jupiter2 wrote:

Will personal gain get in the way of any meaningful sanctions imposed, if any ?

We didn’t impose sanctions after they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens....

No and personally I doubt anything will happen now either. I was just answering a question posed earlier. Nonetheless, it will be an interesting exercise watching what various governments attitudes are and what they may or may not do. They may all be quietly happy if the prince disappears from public view after this woefully executed act.

ATCtower wrote:

jupiter2 wrote:

Will personal gain get in the way of any meaningful sanctions imposed, if any ?

We didn’t impose sanctions after they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens....

That's because Iraq. No wait Afghanistan. No no, it's Iran. Actually, you know what? Just shush and support the troops.

GDB wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:

GDB wrote:

This man's grisly end sounds like a SAW movie, which in a way it is, Saudis At Work.
Agree with the point about in death causing more potential damage to Saudi than he could alive, something that a cossetted, oblivious to the outside world, modern day spoiled brat as ruler did not consider. Both of them that is, Trump and the Crown Prince Of Saudi.

How does Trump have anything to do with the act. Come on.

Why not find out just how much Trump is with, money wise, the Saudi's.
This is aside from the closeness across admins for decades, in this instance, is about HIS personal enrichment. (No surprise there, that is what everything is about with him).
And his Son In Law.
That is why he has been prior to this, butt kissing them more than other US Presidents, why his Muslim ban seemed not to address where 15 and 19 9/11 hijackers and much of the money came from.
And why he is the only Western leader to give any credence to the BS story the Saudi's are trying to spin, again, something he is familiar with.

The funny (?) thing is that any other administration would have choreographed a response so tightly that this would have been swept under the rug within days. But this administration is so incompetent and can't even get a lie straight for more than 24 hours, that it's making this far worse than either country could have imagined. It's certainly laying bare MBS' incompetence, as well as America's total abdication of any moral high ground whatsoever. That may be the silver lining.

anrec80 wrote:

jupiter2 wrote:

Nothing.

However, how the U.S reacts and what the consequences are for Saudi Arabia, will have a lot to do with Trump. Will personal gain get in the way of any meaningful sanctions imposed, if any ?

Personal gain got in the way already. Nobody will lose on $100bln contracts because of some journalist. There are many more such journalists and bloggers left.

Jesus saves! ...at Lockheed Martin

ATCtower wrote:

We didn’t impose sanctions after they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens....

I see that you like to think in cliches. The ruling members of the Saud family were genuinely horrified by 9-11 so invading the country made no sense. There was also the fact that we had a president at the time with a two digit IQ who was influenced by people around him - who already had a plan and an agenda for the ME: The Project for a New American Century.

It is remarkable that the "conservatives, the Republicans or the right wingers (whatever you want to call them) have steadfastly refused to acknowledge the decision-making process that led to allowing AQ and the Taliban leadership to escape at Tora Bora and the subsequent invasion of Iraq.

All that won't fit in a simple cliche so it's understandably hard for you to process.

salttee wrote:

ATCtower wrote:

We didn’t impose sanctions after they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens....

I see that you like to think in cliches. The ruling members of the Saud family were genuinely horrified by 9-11 so invading the country made no sense. There was also the fact that we had a president at the time with a two digit IQ who was influenced by people around him - who already had a plan and an agenda for the ME: The Project for a New American Century.

It is remarkable that the "conservatives, the Republicans or the right wingers (whatever you want to call them) have steadfastly refused to acknowledge the decision-making process that led to allowing AQ and the Taliban leadership to escape at Tora Bora and the subsequent invasion of Iraq.

All that won't fit in a simple cliche so it's understandably hard for you to process.

You might want to Google File 17.... also ask why redactions still not made public relate ONLY to KSA involvement in the attacks. Nothing else was redacted.

Then you have Sen Bob Graham (a Democrat) who served on the senate intelligence committee who openly said there was “significant evidence of support to the terrorists from the Saudi government”.

Then there was KSA’s threat to devalue the USD if we continued investigating the link between them.

Then there was a prominent international attorney a year or two ago who claimed to find a concrete link between the two. Odd, not a word has been heard since.

Finally, never mind that 15/19 hijackers were Saudi nationals....

Which cliche are you referring to? For reference.

ATCtower wrote:

salttee wrote:

ATCtower wrote:

We didn’t impose sanctions after they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens....

I see that you like to think in cliches. The ruling members of the Saud family were genuinely horrified by 9-11 so invading the country made no sense. There was also the fact that we had a president at the time with a two digit IQ who was influenced by people around him - who already had a plan and an agenda for the ME: The Project for a New American Century.

It is remarkable that the "conservatives, the Republicans or the right wingers (whatever you want to call them) have steadfastly refused to acknowledge the decision-making process that led to allowing AQ and the Taliban leadership to escape at Tora Bora and the subsequent invasion of Iraq.

All that won't fit in a simple cliche so it's understandably hard for you to process.

You might want to Google File 17.... also ask why redactions still not made public relate ONLY to KSA involvement in the attacks. Nothing else was redacted.

Then you have Sen Bob Graham (a Democrat) who served on the senate intelligence committee who openly said there was “significant evidence of support to the terrorists from the Saudi government”.

Then there was KSA’s threat to devalue the USD if we continued investigating the link between them.

Then there was a prominent international attorney a year or two ago who claimed to find a concrete link between the two. Odd, not a word has been heard since.

Finally, never mind that 15/19 hijackers were Saudi nationals....

Which cliche are you referring to? For reference.

You are throwing up a bunch of disjointed factoids while missing the reality of what happened.

The Saud tribe rules the country of "Saudi Arabia". These days the tribe is referred to as a family (because they are inbred) and they live completely different lives from the rest of the country's inhabitants. There are currently about 15,000 members of the Saud family with about 2,000 of them at the apex of the hierarchy. This is about the same as it was in 2001 or 1971 for that matter. The family, or the leaders of the family made a deal with the unwashed masses a few decades back. The "people" were beginning to ask for reform as the religious fervor that had began with Sayyid Qutb had spread from Algeria in the 50s to Egypt in the sixties and when it became a factor in Saudi Arabia the ruling clique of the Saud family bought off the peasants by funding madrassas, religious schools. It seemed the perfect solution to the problem created by all the excess population in Saudi Arabia. They would be harmless as religious apostates and not very demanding of material wealth (oil money) which the family could then mostly divvy up among themselves. What could go wrong?

And yes I'm sure it's true that members of the royal family got caught up in the bullshit (OBL for example) the same happens everywhere; religion certainly has an appeal for idle minds.

So the end result of all this is that if you were to have an honest investigation of the roots of the life experiences of those fifteen Saudi hijackers (how would anybody make that happen?) you would surely turn up connections between the royal family and the hijackers, even some cheer leading would be expected to be found.

So what? In the byzantine world of the Saud family there are many secrets, but the people who run the country have been woken up to the dangers of allowing the madrassas' complete autonomy. They promised to reel in the wackos that are damaging to the Saud family's interests and we can believe that they have done that, not because it's the right thing or anything like that but because 9-11 was very detrimental to the lifestyles of the inner circle of the Saud family.

And that's the realpolitik of the situation. Your factoids are meaningless.


And your cliche was "they financed and carried out executing 3,000 American citizens".

Dieuwer wrote:

Are we living in the Twilight Zone? If not, than this is of an enormous absurdity and amateurism ever conceived.
Just imagine Putin inviting Skripal into the Russian embassy in London and chop him up! That's insane. I mean, Putin is not the good guy, but at least he has some brain and decorum left.

This is the consequences of Saudis being allowed to do anything they feel like for too long. Way too long. They’ve been on good accounts with Osama bin Laden. They’ve been trading arms with all sorts of “brothers” in the Middle East and not only. They’ve been making generous donations all over the USA political system. Those princes were nailed down carrying drugs. I am not even talking about any sorts of basic human rights there in the Kingdom. And all has been good, there never have been any red lines for them.

But killing right in the consulate, or even doing some wet things there - I just don’t know. Even if we assume that the guy was indeed aggressive - all it takes is a couple of security guards to just walk him out of the consulate without even hurting him anyhow.

Erdogan is not letting it die down.

Turkey has ramped up pressure on Saudi Arabia over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, demanding Riyadh reveal who gave the order to kill the journalist in the kingdom's consulate in Istanbul. "If you are determined to lift this shroud of mystery, then this is the key point of our collaboration," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in a speech on Friday in the capital Ankara.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/ ... 07277.html

salttee wrote:

Erdogan is not letting it die down.

Turkey has ramped up pressure on Saudi Arabia over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, demanding Riyadh reveal who gave the order to kill the journalist in the kingdom's consulate in Istanbul. "If you are determined to lift this shroud of mystery, then this is the key point of our collaboration," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in a speech on Friday in the capital Ankara.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/ ... 07277.html

Erdogan should probably just stay quiet. He should be held accountable for all the atrocities he's been at the forefront of as well.

trpmb6 wrote:

Erdogan should probably just stay quiet. He should be held accountable for all the atrocities he's been at the forefront of as well.

Indeed. It is quite ridiculous to see all those anti-Trump liberals taking Erdogan's words for granted. Just remember this Turkish man is responsible for this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/worl ... buses.html

U.N. Accuses Turkey of Killing Hundreds of Kurds
March 10, 2017

GENEVA — Turkey’s military and police forces have killed hundreds of people during operations against Kurdish rebels in southeastern Turkey, the United Nations said on Friday in a report that listed summary killings, torture, rape and widespread destruction of property among an array of human rights abuses.

The report, by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, details how operations by the Turkish infantry, artillery, tanks and possibly aircraft drove up to half a million people from their homes over a 17-month period from July 2015 to the end of 2016.

And one of liberals' favourite countries:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 35951.html

Recep Tayyip Erdogan: Turkish President could face arrest in Sweden over 'genocide’ lawsuit

Complaint is country's first to be lodged against head of state, which could see him arrested if pursued by prosecutor's office

SCQ83 wrote:

Indeed. It is quite ridiculous to see all those anti-Trump liberals taking Erdogan's words for granted. Just remember this Turkish man is responsible for this:

The ever present right wing whataboutism strikes again.

Taking his words for granted? What is there that he has said about the murder and butchery done to Khashoggi that you question?
Where is your logic?

salttee wrote:

The ever present right wing whataboutism strikes again.

Taking his words for granted? What is there that he has said about the murder and butchery done to Khashoggi that you question?
Where is your logic?

My logic is that I wouldn't believe one word out of Erdogan's mouth. The link above clearly defines what Erdogan is. And he obviously has an agenda to fight and destabilise Saudi Arabia.

SCQ83 wrote:

My logic is that I wouldn't believe one word out of Erdogan's mouth. The link above clearly defines what Erdogan is. And he obviously has an agenda to fight and destabilise Saudi Arabia.

Good for him, I'll send him five bucks if he keeps up his campaign. But the most relevant fact is that the Saudi's have even admitted that Khashoggi was murdered, and that the murder was planned.

Why can't you see the hypocrisy of your whataboutism? The facts of the matter are that you don't give a hoot about what went on inside Turkey. You just want to defend MbS because he is Trump's buddy.

salttee wrote:

You just want to defend MbS because he is Trump's buddy.

I don't "defend" anyone here. But MBS is a progressive leader that is moving KSA and Saudis forward. Erdogan is (read link above) that has destroyed entire cities in occupied Kurdistan.

MbS is a tyrannical bloodthirsty 14th century iron fisted dictator who falsely presents himself as progressive. Also, he is currently conducting a war of conquest against Yemen for purely Machiavellian reasons.

And you are defending MbS by trying to deflect the conversation to Turkey.

salttee wrote:

MbS is a tyrannical bloodthirsty 14th century iron fisted dictator who falsely presents himself as progressive. Also, he is currently conducting a war of conquest against Yemen for purely Machiavellian reasons.

Yemeni rebels are being financed by Iran, which ultimately wants to destroy Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi and Israel.

So if Mexico was financed by Venezuela to destroy the US (e.g. launching missiles or drones in downtown LA or San Diego, like Yemeni rebels have made in Riyadh or Abu Dhabi Airport), should the US just do nothing?

Definitely liberals have different standards.

That's utter bullshit. It's propaganda. This war was begun by Saudi Arabia simply because Saudi Arabia and Yemen have been adversaries for hundreds of years and the Saud family sensed weakness in their southern neighbor. Yemen is no threat to Saudi Arabia and never has been a threat to them at any time in the last 90 years at least. The Iranians have provided support for the Houthis who are not even Shiias (as is Iran), Iran has no designs on Yemen itself. Iran should be supported in resisting Saudi aggression and brutality.

The back story is that Saudi Arabia has been sold a bill of goods by Israel which promises them that they can become the major power in the gulf if they go to war with Iran, and of course it's the Americans who will provide the military muscle behind the war on Iran. This is just a re-hatch of the PNAC plan of 2003.

The facts are that Saudi Arabia will never ever eclipse Iran, the Persians have a real national culture and have been the leading power in the gulf region for the last 2,500 years. A bunch of Arabian tribes people have no chance of usurping Iran.

How did you like the last gulf war? Did it turn out like you thought it would?

The coming war with Iran will turn out even worse. But it will keep the ME in turmoil and will suck the US in even deeper and all that is to Israel's benefit.

Wake up! Your wars are destroying this country.

Saltee is finally exposing him/herself as who they really are. Keep spouting the Iranian talking points.

trpmb6 wrote:

Saltee is finally exposing him/herself as who they really are. Keep spouting the Iranian talking points.

Yet you are continuing to expose your self as an illiterate boob who is unable to make a coherent argument.

salttee wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:

Saltee is finally exposing him/herself as who they really are. Keep spouting the Iranian talking points.

Yet you are continuing to expose your self as an illiterate boob who is unable to make a coherent argument.

False.

So, where's the coherent argument?

salttee wrote:

So, where's the coherent argument?

Well, I've condemned the murder in this thread. I have called out Erdogan for his faux outrage.

What else is expected?

Well, as I have noted previously in the thread MBS is being pushed out in favor of his younger brother who is even more "progressive".

You want me to post your Iranian propaganda? Because that's not happening. It is clear you have an agenda here.

Perhaps as an Iranian sympathiser you prefer MBS to remain in power. Kind of helps your position.

Doesnt matter. SA may not be exactly a great ally, but there are worse ones.

That is not a coherent rebuttal of my post #135. That isn't even an attempt to rebut post #135.
That's just a bunch of disjointed claims, whining and projections.

You speak of the Persian culture and their technical prowess.

Yes it is great, and superb for the region.

But they belittle themselves by not overthrowing their current overlords.

It's a shame really.

The could be such a great ally.

Forgive me for saying, there is some irony that the left seems to support a friend of anrec and scorpio et al.

As I pointed out in post #137 you are unable to make a coherent argument. As it is you lack any knowledge of current circumstance of the Gulf region or of the history of the region. But the limitations which prevent you from being able to make a coherent argument run deeper than that.

You should stick to one liners.

trpmb6 wrote:

Forgive me for saying, there is some irony that the left seems to support a friend of anrec and scorpio et al.

I’m not left (or right for that matter), but here is the absolute definition of irony.

Can’t refute it.

ATCtower wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:

Forgive me for saying, there is some irony that the left seems to support a friend of anrec and scorpio et al.

I’m not left (or right for that matter), but here is the absolute definition of irony.
Can’t refute it.

trpmb6 stumbled onto a truth that he only sees as fodder for a smartaleck remark but in truth has ominous implications. Russia and Iran would normally have a very cool relationship, they have little in common and I'm sure the heavy handed Russian bear makes some in Iran a bit nervous. But forces that would put Iran under attack from the west, the US in particular, would drive and have driven Iran into Russia's arms and visa versa. Iran is a military buffer zone between Russia's southern flank and the western nations. As long as Iran is secure, Russia need not worry, nor be required to man defenses on it's southern border. A strong Iran makes a safe Russia.

Iran has already been given complete Russian SA-300 air defense systems; however, there's likely a larger problem that isn't as in our face visible. Iran makes their own air defense systems from scratch or near scratch. I say near scratch because they have been given copious Russian technical assistance along the way. The path between the Russian AD development people and the Iranian aerospace people can be assumed to be in place, they know each other. The SA-300 radar system has anti-stealth capability all on its own and Iran is currently making it's own missiles to be used with the SA-300. They also have myriad other AD sites scattered around their mountainous country. Iran also manufactures radar, they have designed and built their own systems. It is fair to assume that all Russia would have to do is to give Iran a few computer chips and Iran would have SA-400 systems to put online. They may already have done that.

https://theiranproject.com/blog/tag/iran-radar-systems/

Driving Iran further into Russia's arms promises unpleasant consequences, at the very least it will give Russia an F-35 killing laboratory.

If you read my posts here you'll easily see that I'm no fan of Russia and that I am a believer in the F-35. I don't like the idea of giving Russia an F-35 killing lab. I think that would undermine our national security. Please remember that in the status quo, Iran is no threat whatsoever to our national security. We are only targeting Iran to facilitate Israel's current activities.

There are other considerations, like US pilot's lives. Don't confuse Iran with Saddam's Iraq. That would be a big mistake.

This is too good to pass up. It cones from The Daily Beast which isn't on my usual reading list, but the story looks real.

After the Khashoggi Murder, Pakistan Shakes Down Weakened Saudi Prince for $6 Billion

By rushing to stand by Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, widely accused of ordering the execution, Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan got a $6 billion aid package, which he desperately needs to salvage the Pakistani economy. There undoubtedly is more to the deal, including benefits for Saudi-backed terrorist groups in Pakistan.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-the ... r6-billion

This may yet cost MbS his job. And I hope it makes Israel nervous to have the Saudi's all buddy buddy with a nuclear equipped Muslim state.

casinterest wrote:

You will find the answer in a really simple 3 letter word.


Oil.

Perhaps even in another simple phrase

"Defense spending on US military equipment"

Nothing is going to happen but a slap on the wrist.

So now that Donald Trump has submitted a letter basically bowing down to the Saudi's and admitting the above, do any of you think it helps the US position?
Is Donald Trump making a business decision or a leadership decision?

How is it "America First" When at the end of the day he sold out the principles of the United States to a Monarchy that doesn't respect the freedom of speech or religion?

casinterest wrote:

So now that Donald Trump has submitted a letter basically bowing down to the Saudi's and admitting the above, do any of you think it helps the US position?
Is Donald Trump making a business decision or a leadership decision?

How is it "America First" When at the end of the day he sold out the principles of the United States to a Monarchy that doesn't respect the freedom of speech or religion?

Now come on, the America of Trump is not that strong to stand up against an ally that is dependent on us. And killing is good business. You can also see why Trump is anxious to get back together with Russia.

Tugg

It is the old game that can be reduced to one sentence:

We know he's a bastard, but he is OUR bastard.

casinterest wrote:

How is it "America First" When at the end of the day he sold out the principles of the United States to a Monarchy that doesn't respect the freedom of speech or religion?

What principles do you have in mind ?

So, the administration is celebrating the murder of a journalist and standing with the architects of 9/11 and throwing hate toward those who took out America's Enemy #1. And the orange one still has a fan base.