c933103 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I don't think the overall level of democracy of anywhere can be used to justify the rightness of individual policies. Like, do you think the America is doing the right thing at Guantanamo simply because they are a democracy?

....and many voices rightfully call for their closure. Including the former president.

It's not a matter of my country right or wrong, it's a matter of rules, and rules can and do change. No reason to stomp due process just because you feel entitled to something.

Part of Catalans (not a majority, not yet at least) feel they're entitled to the UN self-determination right, they feel they are a nation. But nations only matter so far. The modern world is built on states. The EU is a union of member states, not nations, UN, NATO, etc. have member states, and states have laws which citizens of a state must follow.

It's OK not to like them, that's why there are avenues to change that.

... Again, "what most people think" something should work someway doesn't help especially with respect to minorities or stuffs like that. Like remember there are numerous genocidal regimes around the world that are democratically elected. And how many colonies who obtained independence in the last century do you think followed laws and procedures in their respective parent nations when achieving independence?

We're not talking about genocidal regimes. We're talking about a full western democracy.

Catalans get their own parties, vote in all elections, have their own language as the dominant language for public servants and education. The claim for oppression is absolute bollocks. The drive for independence for a substantial part of the Catalan electorate (there's always been a small minority calling for it) matches the timeline of the godfather of Catalan autonomy Mr. Pujol and his party being outed as having amassed a fortune out of getting commissions for just about everything that was being built in Catalonia using public money.

I am Spanish, my mother tongue is Catalan and that's the language I'm passing down to my sons. But you have to call BS when you see it.

MIAspotter wrote:

And what was Spain suppose to do

You can keep a dysdunctional state together by force only for so long.

MIAspotter wrote:

deep down they confrontation, they locked themselves on the schools, used children and elderly , they were looking for confrontation so that it would show on worldwide TV and newspaper and make Spain look like a repressive state,

... and Spanish central government was more than happy to prove them right.
Hysterical overreactions even half a year later are also quite telling:

Flemish parliament president said Spanish response to Catalan crisis showed country cannot be ‘part of a modern democratic’ EU.

The Spanish government stripped the Flemish representative in Madrid of his diplomatic status in retaliation for the remarks by Jan Peumans, in which he criticized Spain’s response to last year’s Catalan independence referendum.
https://www.politico.eu/article/diploma ... -flanders/

JJJ wrote:

We're talking about a full western democracy.

Even a full western democracy according to the Economist sometimes has its darker, post-fascist days

JJJ, what do you think about Manuel Valls candidacy for mayor of Barcelona ?

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

....and many voices rightfully call for their closure. Including the former president.

It's not a matter of my country right or wrong, it's a matter of rules, and rules can and do change. No reason to stomp due process just because you feel entitled to something.

Part of Catalans (not a majority, not yet at least) feel they're entitled to the UN self-determination right, they feel they are a nation. But nations only matter so far. The modern world is built on states. The EU is a union of member states, not nations, UN, NATO, etc. have member states, and states have laws which citizens of a state must follow.

It's OK not to like them, that's why there are avenues to change that.

... Again, "what most people think" something should work someway doesn't help especially with respect to minorities or stuffs like that. Like remember there are numerous genocidal regimes around the world that are democratically elected. And how many colonies who obtained independence in the last century do you think followed laws and procedures in their respective parent nations when achieving independence?

We're not talking about genocidal regimes. We're talking about a full western democracy.

Catalans get their own parties, vote in all elections, have their own language as the dominant language for public servants and education. The claim for oppression is absolute bollocks. The drive for independence for a substantial part of the Catalan electorate (there's always been a small minority calling for it) matches the timeline of the godfather of Catalan autonomy Mr. Pujol and his party being outed as having amassed a fortune out of getting commissions for just about everything that was being built in Catalonia using public money.

I am Spanish, my mother tongue is Catalan and that's the language I'm passing down to my sons. But you have to call BS when you see it.

Even with full democracy and no oppression, the issue should still be internal to the Catalan area instead of to the entire country of Spain. The referendum organized last time there was not a legal one because there are no legal mean available for all people in the region to vote for independence or not. And then it can be expected because of fear that they might actually vote for independence so such procedure won't be legalized in Spain anytime soon. In this case you cannot claim such an option is available to people there.

I am aware of the existence of Catalan people who think independence is bad, however the lack of referendum rule in Spain is hurting these people equally at the same time because they're trapped in the middle of conflicts between both sides. Look at Scotland where people who wished to remain obtained more than necessary number of vote and thus stabilized the situation. Unfortunately it doesn't seems to be something Spanish central government would allow to happen

Anyway, in any case, be it independence or remain as part of Spain, such thing should only be decided by people living in the area. It make no sense for people from other part of Spain to determine the region's future just because of some vague emotional attachment

L410Turbolet wrote:

JJJ wrote:

We're talking about a full western democracy.

Even a full western democracy according to the Economist sometimes has its darker, post-fascist days

Democracy is always a work in progress.

Aesma wrote:

JJJ, what do you think about Manuel Valls candidacy for mayor of Barcelona ?

An opportunist taking advantage of top opportist in Spanish politics, Albert Rivera.

c933103 wrote:

Even with full democracy and no oppression, the issue should still be internal to the Catalan area instead of to the entire country of Spain. The referendum organized last time there was not a legal one because there are no legal mean available for all people in the region to vote for independence or not. And then it can be expected because of fear that they might actually vote for independence so such procedure won't be legalized in Spain anytime soon. In this case you cannot claim such an option is available to people there.

I am aware of the existence of Catalan people who think independence is bad, however the lack of referendum rule in Spain is hurting these people equally at the same time because they're trapped in the middle of conflicts between both sides.

There's no both sides, there's an infinite range of greys between the hardcore commie independentists CUP and the rabid, quasi-fascist VOX. And then there's the traditional left-right axis on top of that too.

Read on how the mainstream Catalan party took independence to heart after being a happy partner to Spanish politics (both PP and PSOE) only after their father figure and almost demigod Jordi Pujol was revealed to have brought in something like 3 billion euro of personal thanks to the famous 3% commission. Read on how the independentists broke every check and balance to milk a narrow seat (but not vote, thanks to the overrepresentation of rural provinces at the expense of Barcelona) majority to pass laws which required reinforced majorities for a reason.

I'm not talking about Spanish parliament now, Catalan parliament, fully elected within Catalonia which has their own constitution (the Estatut) which requires a 2/3 seat majority to amend, that's the first step if they're serious about going anywhere.

In the words of the former Catalan Education minister, we were playing poker and they called our bluff (there are no English language links for that, but that quote is the base of this second-hand analysis).

https://voicesfromspain.com/2018/06/23/ ... f-reveals/

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Even with full democracy and no oppression, the issue should still be internal to the Catalan area instead of to the entire country of Spain. The referendum organized last time there was not a legal one because there are no legal mean available for all people in the region to vote for independence or not. And then it can be expected because of fear that they might actually vote for independence so such procedure won't be legalized in Spain anytime soon. In this case you cannot claim such an option is available to people there.

I am aware of the existence of Catalan people who think independence is bad, however the lack of referendum rule in Spain is hurting these people equally at the same time because they're trapped in the middle of conflicts between both sides.

There's no both sides, there's an infinite range of greys between the hardcore commie independentists CUP and the rabid, quasi-fascist VOX. And then there's the traditional left-right axis on top of that too.

Read on how the mainstream Catalan party took independence to heart after being a happy partner to Spanish politics (both PP and PSOE) only after their father figure and almost demigod Jordi Pujol was revealed to have brought in something like 3 billion euro of personal thanks to the famous 3% commission. Read on how the independentists broke every check and balance to milk a narrow seat (but not vote, thanks to the overrepresentation of rural provinces at the expense of Barcelona) majority to pass laws which required reinforced majorities for a reason.

I'm not talking about Spanish parliament now, Catalan parliament, fully elected within Catalonia which has their own constitution (the Estatut) which requires a 2/3 seat majority to amend, that's the first step if they're serious about going anywhere.

In the words of the former Catalan Education minister, we were playing poker and they called our bluff (there are no English language links for that, but that quote is the base of this second-hand analysis).

https://voicesfromspain.com/2018/06/23/ ... f-reveals/

Then again, in such a situation, no law - including law of the region itself - can help resolve conflicts. Especially when laws in territories like this are often written with compromises to governing entity. The question must be put in front of people for the sake of the future of the society. That should be enabled by laws if there are currently no such law.

Such laws would cause the break up of pretty much any country on the planet. Including a future Catalonia itself. What's to stop Barcelona from voting its independence from Catalonia, for example ?

Aesma wrote:

Such laws would cause the break up of pretty much any country on the planet. Including a future Catalonia itself. What's to stop Barcelona from voting its independence from Catalonia, for example ?

Why not, if they think that would be better to them?
Some strong reason to counter that would be economy and cultural, but those must be mutual ties instead of single-sided for that to be effective.

Aesma wrote:

Such laws would cause the break up of pretty much any country on the planet. Including a future Catalonia itself. What's to stop Barcelona from voting its independence from Catalonia, for example ?

That's already started. Tabarnia even has a wiki page now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabarnia

It started as a joke to reflect independentist actions in front of a mirror, but it's been gaining momentum.

The lesson to take is that you need a strong mandate for a huge change in common people's lives. Most countries have such a mechanism for constitutional changes (bicameral reinforced majorities, forced elections etc) so in the case of a territorial change if should be even stronger.