When I checked in Wikipedia, flights between Taiwan and Japan has continue to grow while flights between China and Taiwan has possibly been reduced. In the statistic HKG is the busiest from TPE while combined TPE and TSA to various cities in Japan has been increased, flights to China has gone fallen compared to Japan and probably South Korea too. So wandering why Taiwan has now more passenger traffic to Japan compared to China lately?

Its easier for Taiwanese to travel to/via Japan than via Mainland. Japan is visa free while they need a permit for travel / transit in Mainland. Despite its small population Taiwanese traveler also are third biggest tourist group in Japan after Mainland and Korea.

Truth is Taiwan has more recent ties with Japan than China. Other than a brief few years after WW2 Beijing hasn’t ruled the island since the Qing Dynasty

Taiwan culturally has drifted from China quite a bit. This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQTtwh2GRME gives some background on it. But there were 30 or so years where China and Taiwan didn't acknowledge the other. Ironically it was a hijacking of a 747 that brought about the beginnings of Taiwan and China having a relationship.

A few reasons:
1. PRC-Taiwan relations are downright awful lately, especially after the current president (Tsai Ing-Wan), who is more or less pro-independence, comes into power. IIRC Tourism from PRC to Taiwan dropped quite a bit bc of restrictions placed by PRC govt. i would say this is the main culpult behind the reduction in cross-strait flights anyway.
2. Taiwan-Japan has always been a large market, both in business tie and tourism. Japanese tourism is also booming recently due to the relatively low yen (those 20% YoY growth is just insane).
3. Average Taiwanese definitely hold more favorable opinion on Japanese than mainlanders. Personal opinion is that about the only people that dislike mainlanders more are HKer.

zakuivcustom wrote:

Personal opinion is that about the only people that dislike mainlanders more are HKer.

HK has to be one of the only case of protesters in the streets waving the flag of and calling for the return of the former colonizing European power!

[twoid][/twoid]

tpaewr wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

Personal opinion is that about the only people that dislike mainlanders more are HKer.

HK has to be one of the only case of protesters in the streets waving the flag of and calling for the return of the former colonizing European power!

A bit off topic, but it seems like Taiwan and Hong Kong would be much “happier” together than Hong Kong and China, although the chances of that ever happening peacefully is right up there with snow in Phoenix in July...

Just some number to back things up:
http://admin.taiwan.net.tw/upload/stati ... dec433.xls

PRC visitor to Taiwan dropped 20% from 2016 to 2017, all due to politics. Not like average Taiwanese necessarily dislike it, though, with the over-tourism in some area (Just think on the feeling of "Chinese tourists are everywhere", than multiply that by 10, and not the "best" type of Chinese tourists, either). BTW Japanese is the second largest group of visitors to Taiwan (HK/Macau is 3rd, although per capita they'll be #1, hence the gazillion flights between HKG and TPE).

tpaewr wrote:

HK has to be one of the only case of protesters in the streets waving the flag of and calling for the return of the former colonizing European power!

To be fair, British gov't greatly benefit from being the people that govern HK during the time with booming economic growth (late 1980s/early 1990s). Even doesn't help is the fact that the current gov't is totally useless lapdog of PRC.

flyfresno wrote:

A bit off topic, but it seems like Taiwan and Hong Kong would be much “happier” together than Hong Kong and China, although the chances of that ever happening peacefully is right up there with snow in Phoenix in July...

Just let RoC gov't take control of the entire China again. Pro-"One China" people will be happy, Pan-Green (pro Taiwan independence) people will not have anything to cry about anymore as they'll now be in control, all the controversy of "China Taiwan" (or Chinese Taipei) on Airlines' websites will go away. There's a higher chance that BER will open by 2050 than that happening, though.

Taiwan has had close ties with Japan for >100 years. They are not angry about Japan colonists, they actually really like Japan. They even adopted some parts of Japanese religious practices.

Taiwan isn't just "another province of China." Not by any stretch of the imagination. That is just historically bankrupt propaganda.

I am confused. Taiwan is a part of China according to the government policy of every western country in the whole world.

The thread title is like asking 'More traffic from New York to France than the United States?'

A fair comparison here would be the province of Taiwan versus the province of Sichuan for example.

And yes, i do know 17 out of 190 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country, rather than a province. I am simply stating the absolute majority here.

To answer your question. The province of Taiwan has typically had much stronger ties to Japan than other provinces in China, hence a larger exchange of traffic.

intothinair wrote:

I am confused. Taiwan is a part of China according to the government policy of every western country in the whole world.

The thread title is like asking 'More traffic from New York to France than the United States?'

A fair comparison here would be the province of Taiwan versus the province of Sichuan for example.

And yes, i do know 17 out of 190 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country, rather than a province. I am simply stating the absolute majority here.

To answer your question. The province of Taiwan has typically had much stronger ties to Japan than other provinces in China, hence a larger exchange of traffic.

Taiwan has never been run by the Peoples Republic of China as when the PRC came into existence in 1949 the loser of the civil war, the nationalist Republic ofChina government which existed since 1912, moved to exile in Taipei. A better analogy would be some part of 18th century N America which became part of the US but was never part of the 13 British colonies.

Taiwan was treated relatively well by their Japanese colonial masters, unlike S Korea where the local populace were only slightly better than slaves, so there is little animosity and given the strong ties economically and culturally since WW2 and the antagonism of the PRC government to any DPP administration in Taiwan and an open skies agreement between Taipei and Tokyo and no need for travel permits etc travel will continue to boom. The first Taiwan president in the post martial law "democratic" age and first one born in Taiwan Lee Teng Hui was more fluent in Japanese than English (and he had a PhD from Cornell!)

intothinair wrote:

I am confused.

No you aren't.

intothinair wrote:

Taiwan is a part of China according to the government policy of every western country in the whole world.

Please do not be intentionally misleading. Every western country in the whole world is forced to follow the vague and ambiguous "One China Policy" in order to enjoy trade and diplomatic relations with the PRC. They do not consider Taiwan part of the PRC.

intothinair wrote:

The thread title is like asking 'More traffic from New York to France than the United States?'

New York is not a sovereign nation. Taiwan ROC is a sovereign nation albeit one that is prevented by the PRC from having de jure independence (it would bother absolutely nobody else other than PRC if Taiwan became independent)

intothinair wrote:

A fair comparison here would be the province of Taiwan versus the province of Sichuan for example.

See above.

intothinair wrote:

And yes, i do know 17 out of 190 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country, rather than a province. I am simply stating the absolute majority here.

207 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country. 17 of them, due being small and poor, have the ability to maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan without suffering the consequences of angering the PRC. It won't be long before that 17 is 0. Taiwan will still be a sovereign nation at that point.

intothinair wrote:

To answer your question. The province of Taiwan has typically had much stronger ties to Japan than other provinces in China, hence a larger exchange of traffic.

Let me fix that for you: "To answer your question. For many years, Taiwan had much stronger business ties to Japan than China, hence a larger exchange of traffic."

The market between Taiwan and Japan is huge. If you ever go to Taiwan, you'd see how many Japanese tourists there are. Also, I really didn't hope this would turn into is Taiwan part of China debate. Can we maybe drop this topic?

intothinair wrote:

I am confused. Taiwan is a part of China according to the government policy of every western country in the whole world.

The thread title is like asking 'More traffic from New York to France than the United States?'

A fair comparison here would be the province of Taiwan versus the province of Sichuan for example.

And yes, i do know 17 out of 190 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country, rather than a province. I am simply stating the absolute majority here.

To answer your question. The province of Taiwan has typically had much stronger ties to Japan than other provinces in China, hence a larger exchange of traffic.

Except PRC-to-Taiwan flights are more similar to international flight than a domestic one. To start, PRC citizen need a permit just to go to Taiwan (and v.v.), and also, you need to go through passport control and custom flying between the two. Absolutely nothing wrong with comparing such flight to international one, no matter which side of the political spectrum you're in.

Taiwan may not be recognized as a sovereign nation, but that's only b/c money talks, and PRC is not just a market where countries simply ignored even though their gov't is total s**t.

P.S. Another thing that haven't been mentioned yet - Taiwan and Japan has Open Sky agreement with each other (to/from everywhere in Japan except NRT/HND). Hence airlines (especially LCCs) can grow a lot easier between the two. No such agreement exist, nor unlikely will exist for awhile, between PRC and Taiwan.

intothinair wrote:

I am confused. Taiwan is a part of China according to the government policy of every western country in the whole world.

The thread title is like asking 'More traffic from New York to France than the United States?'

A fair comparison here would be the province of Taiwan versus the province of Sichuan for example.

And yes, i do know 17 out of 190 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country, rather than a province. I am simply stating the absolute majority here.

To answer your question. The province of Taiwan has typically had much stronger ties to Japan than other provinces in China, hence a larger exchange of traffic.

I am extremely confused by this comment. The current government, People's Republic of China (hereinafter "Mao Chi a") never had any sovereignty over Taiwan/Formosa island. Yet, they still claim that the island, now part of Republic of China (commonly referred to as Taiwan) is part of Mao China. In contrast, Japan had sovereignty over most part of China, including Nanking and Shanghai, yet Japan after 1945, recognising the current status quo, never claimed ownership over any part of China, including Nanking.

So - wouldn't "Nanking, Japan" which was at least true less than one century ago, contain far more truth than Taiwan, China, which was never true in history?

Btw, Taiwan has open skies agreement with Japan, so more flights are permitted between Japan and Taiwan, than between Mao China and Taiwan which is limited by bilateral agreement. The reason is simple. The same is the case with almost every other Asian countries due to open skies with Japan and bilateral agreement limitation with Mao China.

intothinair wrote:

I am confused. Taiwan is a part of China according to the government policy of every western country in the whole world.

The thread title is like asking 'More traffic from New York to France than the United States?'

A fair comparison here would be the province of Taiwan versus the province of Sichuan for example.

And yes, i do know 17 out of 190 or so countries worldwide regard Taiwan as a country, rather than a province. I am simply stating the absolute majority here.

To answer your question. The province of Taiwan has typically had much stronger ties to Japan than other provinces in China, hence a larger exchange of traffic.

Nope, even according to your "OFFICIAL" logic, those countries are still not recognizing Taiwan as an individual country, rather they're just recognizing the Taiwanese authority as the legitimate government of China.
But fact is fact, even when all governments in the world including the two directly involved government say otherwise according to desire of government at Beijing, that still doesn't change the fact that there are two countries co-existing in that area.

Me, after reading past the 5th post or so:

trex8 wrote:

Taiwan was treated relatively well by their Japanese colonial masters, unlike S Korea where the local populace were only slightly better than slaves, so there is little animosity and given the strong ties economically and culturally since WW2 and the antagonism of the PRC government to any DPP administration in Taiwan and an open skies agreement between Taipei and Tokyo and no need for travel permits etc travel will continue to boom. The first Taiwan president in the post martial law "democratic" age and first one born in Taiwan Lee Teng Hui was more fluent in Japanese than English (and he had a PhD from Cornell!)

My understanding/personal hypothesis on the different of attitude from Korea/Taiwan against Japan is that it seems to be more of a perspective things. Japan did something good and something bad in both Taiwan and South Korea, however at the time of conquest Taiwan didn't have much of a nation identity (regardless of which nation) while Korea have, and the period of tine Japan have firm control on Taiwan was also slightly longer than Korea. Also, despite both of them entered a stage of authoritarianism governance after being freed from the Japan Empire that lasted until 1990s, the authoritarian government at Taiwan is seen as foreign and thus their policies are compared to Japan which allowed population to make comparison between them as both of them are foreign governments, however the authoritarian government of South Korea is Korean and thus people would still won't say the Japanese government would have been preferred due to the higher legitimacy the government have by the virtue of being a Korean government. As a result, when both governments release anti-Japan propaganda, they are more accepted by Korean population than Taiwanese population and the situation didn't reverse after the democratization of both countries.

tphuang wrote:

The market between Taiwan and Japan is huge. If you ever go to Taiwan, you'd see how many Japanese tourists there are. Also, I really didn't hope this would turn into is Taiwan part of China debate. Can we maybe drop this topic?

Why? This topic, even purely aviation-related, can't be discussed without politics. It's just not possible.

And to point it out for you: China is bad dictatorship, an opressing country, where free press and personal freedom can not grow, but instead get bullied by the authorities. While Taiwan (more or less) is a good democracy with free press and personal freedoms. And they are a different country than China. An independent country.

And since the last election, Taiwan got a government which has the balls to claim that independence and freedom from China. Rightfully so. And what was the reaction from PRC/China? They made it more difficult to go to Taiwan and fired up the state media against the "bad Taiwanese". Result? 20% less people going from China to Taiwan one year later. Despite the economies being up and tourism booming on both sides.

On the other hand, Japan and Taiwan have excellent relations and tourism is booming, up nearly 10% year on year. So we see more flights between these countries, than between PRC and Taiwan.

CARST wrote:

And since the last election, Taiwan got a government which has the balls to claim that independence and freedom from China. Rightfully so. And what was the reaction from PRC/China? They made it more difficult to go to Taiwan and fired up the state media against the "bad Taiwanese".

Note: The current government of Taiwan stoll haven't go as far as able to openly declares their independence from China. They only denied unification. China would response even more negatively if they actually declares independence ranging from at least cutting off all direct links between the two countries to military actions.

c933103 wrote:

CARST wrote:

And since the last election, Taiwan got a government which has the balls to claim that independence and freedom from China. Rightfully so. And what was the reaction from PRC/China? They made it more difficult to go to Taiwan and fired up the state media against the "bad Taiwanese".

Note: The current government of Taiwan stoll haven't go as far as able to openly declares their independence from China. They only denied unification. China would response even more negatively if they actually declares independence ranging from at least cutting off all direct links between the two countries to military actions.

" response even more negatively" is probably an understatement. I think the response would more aggressive and belligerent than anything else

CARST wrote:

tphuang wrote:

The market between Taiwan and Japan is huge. If you ever go to Taiwan, you'd see how many Japanese tourists there are. Also, I really didn't hope this would turn into is Taiwan part of China debate. Can we maybe drop this topic?

Why? This topic, even purely aviation-related, can't be discussed without politics. It's just not possible.

And to point it out for you: China is bad dictatorship, an opressing country, where free press and personal freedom can not grow, but instead get bullied by the authorities. While Taiwan (more or less) is a good democracy with free press and personal freedoms. And they are a different country than China. An independent country.

And since the last election, Taiwan got a government which has the balls to claim that independence and freedom from China. Rightfully so. And what was the reaction from PRC/China? They made it more difficult to go to Taiwan and fired up the state media against the "bad Taiwanese". Result? 20% less people going from China to Taiwan one year later. Despite the economies being up and tourism booming on both sides.

On the other hand, Japan and Taiwan have excellent relations and tourism is booming, up nearly 10% year on year. So we see more flights between these countries, than between PRC and Taiwan.

I don't see how China's dictatorship has anything to do with this topic. Seems like you just want to bash the country.

The limit on flights between PRC and Taiwan is an artificial one. If there was open skies, it would be huge. As for your comment about China's bad dictatorship and lack free press, that is true, but this is also a gov't that has brought so many people out of poverty line in the past 40 years. Call it whatever you want, but the people living in there are enjoying the fruits of greater economic freedom, the freedom to travel and move around that they've never had in their lifetime. Saying they have no personal freedom is completely off base. Can you find another country that has seen this kind of transformation? Taiwan can be a model for China in the future, but it is also not exactly a model democracy. My friends in Taiwan would be able to tell you everything wrong with it.

And if you have ever visited southern part of China and Taiwan, you will see how similar they are. Taiwan is far similar to Southern China than HK is. The vast majority of Taiwanese want status quo, not formal independence. This has been shown in every poll. There hasn't been a single Taiwanese gov't that has claimed formal independence. These are the facts regardless of what you think might be the case. Every Taiwanese gov't knows exactly what PRC's red lines are and they also know exactly what will happen if the red lines are crossed.

tphuang wrote:

I don't see how China's dictatorship has anything to do with this topic. Seems like you just want to bash the country.

I never bashing a whole country or its citizens. I'm stating negative facts about the PRC's government. Again, not the Chinese people. And in this case this is aviation related. Because of the PRC's dictatorship government the air service is decreasing between Taiwan and China.

tphuang wrote:

These are the facts regardless of what you think might be the case. Every Taiwanese gov't knows exactly what PRC's red lines are and they also know exactly what will happen if the red lines are crossed.

I will not go into your other comments, because it's all more or less wrong. Completely wrong. But that line I quoted above is correct. China, the PRC, would probably go to war with Taiwan and its allies if Taiwan declares complete independency. This just shows what a bully the PRC is and that it should not be considered a political partner for any country in this world. And because of these red lines, we come back to my comment above, that is why passenger numbers are going back, despite there being strong cultural, economical and family ties between the PRC and Taiwan.

In the end, it's all bad joke only explainable by Chinese logic. Because de facto Taiwan is independent and every country recognises this inofficially, but no one can say it. If you are a realist, you just know that they are an independent country, story over. And if China would finally get that, too, they could be an accepted political partner for first world countries and air traffic to Taiwan would probably double in a year...

CARST wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I don't see how China's dictatorship has anything to do with this topic. Seems like you just want to bash the country.

I never bashing a whole country or its citizens. I'm stating negative facts about the PRC's government. Again, not the Chinese people. And in this case this is aviation related. Because of the PRC's dictatorship government the air service is decreasing between Taiwan and China.

If this is related topic, then why does no one seem to feel the need to bash China except you? I can tell you that if China becomes a democracy tomorrow, the one-china policy will not change. No mainland gov't would ever survive giving up on the One China policy.

tphuang wrote:

These are the facts regardless of what you think might be the case. Every Taiwanese gov't knows exactly what PRC's red lines are and they also know exactly what will happen if the red lines are crossed.

I will not go into your other comments, because it's all more or less wrong. Completely wrong. But that line I quoted above is correct. China, the PRC, would probably go to war with Taiwan and its allies if Taiwan declares complete independency. This just shows what a bully the PRC is and that it should not be considered a political partner for any country in this world. And because of these red lines, we come back to my comment above, that is why passenger numbers are going back, despite there being strong cultural, economical and family ties between the PRC and Taiwan.

In the end, it's all bad joke only explainable by Chinese logic. Because de facto Taiwan is independent and every country recognises this inofficially, but no one can say it. If you are a realist, you just know that they are an independent country, story over. And if China would finally get that, too, they could be an accepted political partner for first world countries and air traffic to Taiwan would probably double in a year...

so you said what I wrote is more or less wrong on everything else. Why don't we look at this?

https://taiwantoday.tw/news.php?unit=2, ... ost=116637

Nearly 90 percent of people in Taiwan support the government’s stance that both sides of the Taiwan Strait should respect each other, set aside differences through communication and dialogue, and maintain the status quo of cross-strait peace and stability, according to poll results released June 8 by the Cabinet-level Mainland Affairs Council.

As I said, vast majority of Taiwanese people want status quo, not formal independence.

Nowhere in my statement did I say Taiwan does not operate like an independent country, but it's just a fact that ROC does not have a policy of independence. Their policy has always been they are the official ruling gov't of China and Taiwan. Read my words carefully, I wrote them in that way for a reason.

For the other comments I made about how similar Southern China and Taiwan are or the improvements in lives of ordinary Chinese citizens, they are pretty obvious if you spend some time in both Mainland and Taiwan. Feel free to disagree me, but please stop making stuff up.

tphuang wrote:

Nowhere in my statement did I say Taiwan does not operate like an independent country, but it's just a fact that ROC does not have a policy of independence. Their policy has always been they are the official ruling gov't of China and Taiwan. Read my words carefully, I wrote them in that way for a reason.

Which is not true. Pan-Green (DPP) by all means are pro-Independence, Taiwan localism (aka "Taiwan is Taiwan, China is China, two separate country, two different people"). KMT got voted out and lose badly last election exactly b/c they were getting way too cozy with PRC gov't, to the detriment of "Taiwanese people".

Yes, Taiwanese may want to maintain the status quo, that is, as long as PRC gov't doesn't interfere in anything in Taiwan. Knowing Emperor Xi, though, he seriously want to show off the power of "new China" and is definitely a lot more hardline towards any separatism. As for every action there's a reaction, a hardline policy on PRC side means a more hardline policy on Taiwan side. Such hardline policy is also anything BUT status quo. The feeling of PRC encroachment, whether through economy, or the amount of mainland Chinese tourists flooding Taiwan, or a**hole like Huang An "reporting" incidents of Chou Tzu-yu (of Korean group Twice) holding a Taiwan flag and make her apologize, or as some on a.net know, the whole BS about company's website listing "Taiwan" not necessarily even a country, but just as a separate region, etc.

On the flip side, there's the fact that the wealthiest Taiwanese businesspeople are often those that have tons of investments in PRC (See Terry Gou of Hon Hai/Foxconn for example). That means anyone whose liveinhood depends on working for those company would want the status quo - too much money to lose otherwise.

Back on topic, though - bilaterial restrictions basically limit the amount of cross-strait flights. With a anti-PRC gov't in power, I don't see the restrictions being loosen anytime soon. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that cross-strait flights are even still running with the awful cross-strait relation lately. Maybe again, money talks? AFAIK CI and BR are making quite a bit of money on those flights.

zakuivcustom wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Nowhere in my statement did I say Taiwan does not operate like an independent country, but it's just a fact that ROC does not have a policy of independence. Their policy has always been they are the official ruling gov't of China and Taiwan. Read my words carefully, I wrote them in that way for a reason.

Which is not true. Pan-Green (DPP) by all means are pro-Independence, Taiwan localism (aka "Taiwan is Taiwan, China is China, two separate country, two different people"). KMT got voted out and lose badly last election exactly b/c they were getting way too cozy with PRC gov't, to the detriment of "Taiwanese people".

Yes, Taiwanese may want to maintain the status quo, that is, as long as PRC gov't doesn't interfere in anything in Taiwan. Knowing Emperor Xi, though, he seriously want to show off the power of "new China" and is definitely a lot more hardline towards any separatism. As for every action there's a reaction, a hardline policy on PRC side means a more hardline policy on Taiwan side. Such hardline policy is also anything BUT status quo. The feeling of PRC encroachment, whether through economy, or the amount of mainland Chinese tourists flooding Taiwan, or a**hole like Huang An "reporting" incidents of Chou Tzu-yu (of Korean group Twice) holding a Taiwan flag and make her apologize, or as some on a.net know, the whole BS about company's website listing "Taiwan" not necessarily even a country, but just as a separate region, etc.

On the flip side, there's the fact that the wealthiest Taiwanese businesspeople are often those that have tons of investments in PRC (See Terry Gou of Hon Hai/Foxconn for example). That means anyone whose liveinhood depends on working for those company would want the status quo - too much money to lose otherwise.

Back on topic, though - bilaterial restrictions basically limit the amount of cross-strait flights. With a anti-PRC gov't in power, I don't see the restrictions being loosen anytime soon. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that cross-strait flights are even still running with the awful cross-strait relation lately. Maybe again, money talks? AFAIK CI and BR are making quite a bit of money on those flights.

Yes, I agree that's the party platform for DPP, but reality is that majority of Taiwanese don't want any change to current situation, which is why the official gov't position won't change outside of a real dramatic shift on the PRC side (and current tension is really nothing compared to 20 years ago).

I agree that CI and BR must be making a lot of money given the high demand and limited supply in the market. One only needs to see HKG-TPE traffic to see how much demand there is if the artificial barriers are lifted. Taiwan would probably be flooded with mainlanders like in HK. I'm not sure Taipei resident would like that. In the popular tourist places I visited, I probably saw more Japanese and HK visitors than mainlanders.

tphuang wrote:

I agree that CI and BR must be making a lot of money given the high demand and limited supply in the market. One only needs to see HKG-TPE traffic to see how much demand there is if the artificial barriers are lifted. Taiwan would probably be flooded with mainlanders like in HK. I'm not sure Taipei resident would like that. In the popular tourist places I visited, I probably saw more Japanese and HK visitors than mainlanders.

At least I don't think Taipei (other than maybe the most popular night markets like Shilin or Raohe) will be totally flooded with mainlanders. I can't really say the same about places like Sun Moon Lake or Kenting, though. Actually, I just realized that there is a limit on how many individual tourists (aka not having to follow tour groups) can go from PRC to Taiwan in the first place (6000/day).

On a related note, though, when your average Taiwanese has to pick between traveling to Japan and traveling to mainland for leisure/sightseeing, guess where they're going to choose? Japan. They're escaping daily busy work life to relax, not to go to more crowded places and have to argue with people about their, well, not so stellar manners. So still surprised about how there are flights from TPE to all the 2nd tier or even 3rd tier cities in Japan? No, they're not for connection, they're for Taiwanese to look for a place that's not crazily flooded with tourists (especially, well, mainland tourists), or, alternatively, some places other than the like of Tokyo/Osaka b/c Taiwanese had probably been to those places like 10 times already.

P.S. I know that feel about "flooded with mainlanders", being from HK myself. . Can't blame it totally on the mainlanders on that, though, rather, HKer in general are extremely short-sighted especially when it comes to making money, so something (i.e. pharmacies or jewelry stores or even brand-name stores) that makes money? They flood the market. Once that "fad" goes away? Just complain about how all these localists are hurting the "attractiveness" of HK (by holding things like anti-tourist protest) when the mainlanders themselves know better than to get rip-off by those shady businesspeople.

zakuivcustom wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I agree that CI and BR must be making a lot of money given the high demand and limited supply in the market. One only needs to see HKG-TPE traffic to see how much demand there is if the artificial barriers are lifted. Taiwan would probably be flooded with mainlanders like in HK. I'm not sure Taipei resident would like that. In the popular tourist places I visited, I probably saw more Japanese and HK visitors than mainlanders.

At least I don't think Taipei (other than maybe the most popular night markets like Shilin or Raohe) will be totally flooded with mainlanders. I can't really say the same about places like Sun Moon Lake or Kenting, though. Actually, I just realized that there is a limit on how many individual tourists (aka not having to follow tour groups) can go from PRC to Taiwan in the first place (6000/day).

It's a true shame mainlanders only go to the well known spots. Having visited some of the less well known places, Taiwan really has a lot to offer. One of the most enjoyable places I've had the pleasure to visit in my lifetime.

On a related note, though, when your average Taiwanese has to pick between traveling to Japan and traveling to mainland for leisure/sightseeing, guess where they're going to choose? Japan. They're escaping daily busy work life to relax, not to go to more crowded places and have to argue with people about their, well, not so stellar manners. So still surprised about how there are flights from TPE to all the 2nd tier or even 3rd tier cities in Japan? No, they're not for connection, they're for Taiwanese to look for a place that's not crazily flooded with tourists (especially, well, mainland tourists), or, alternatively, some places other than the like of Tokyo/Osaka b/c Taiwanese had probably been to those places like 10 times already.

P.S. I know that feel about "flooded with mainlanders", being from HK myself. . Can't blame it totally on the mainlanders on that, though, rather, HKer in general are extremely short-sighted especially when it comes to making money, so something (i.e. pharmacies or jewelry stores or even brand-name stores) that makes money? They flood the market. Once that "fad" goes away? Just complain about how all these localists are hurting the "attractiveness" of HK (by holding things like anti-tourist protest) when the mainlanders themselves know better than to get rip-off by those shady businesspeople.

lol, I know where I'd pick between going to China and Japan for vacation. It's absolutely incredible how many people I know (including myself) consider Tokyo to be the most enjoyable big city to go for a first time visitor. And of course Hokkaido and Kyoto are up there too. But in terms of traffic between Taiwan and Japan, I would imagine there is at least as many Japanese visiting Taiwan as vice versa.

It is amazing how many Westerners here have such a simplistic view of the Taiwanese situation, and horrifying to see how that is being used to answer this question.

To the claims that Taiwan is influenced longer by the Japanese than the Chinese:

Taiwan was first directly ruled as part of a mainland Han Chinese entity since 1661. In 1683, the Qing Dynasty took over, and eventually elevated it to provincial status in 1885. The Qing government was forced to ceed Taiwan to Japan after the First Sino-Japanese War in 1895. It was returned to the ROC government in 1945 at the end of WW2. The ROC retreated from the mainland in 1949, and is still there ever since.

Hence, 212 years of direct control by the Han Chinese (who still obviously form the majority race in Taiwan) versus 50 years of Japanese rule, and people here ignore 212 years of history to conclude that the Taiwanese are more Japanese than Chinese just because they happen to be well-treated by the Japanese colonial masters and still look towards the colonial era wth fondness? And you think the Taiwanese will travel mainly to Japan just because of this fondness?

To the claims that cross-straits flights are inhibited primarily because of the PRC:

Again, the facts. Cross-straits communications practically ceased after the ROC retreated to Taiwan. No one is truly to be blamed here, partly because there was no formal declaration to end the war, nor was there a treaty signed. Fast forward to 1979, where Deng Xiaoping and his PRC government was the one who first initiated the "Three Links" proposal to re-establish direct air, sea and postal links. The ROC government under Chiang Ching-kuo rejected the proposal, however, and came up with the "Three-Noes Policy" instead.

So it was mainly due to these long-standing policies, which forced air movement between the two sides to go via intermediate points, with HKG being the primary beneficiary (60%), and others going via Macau (30%), South Korea, etc. Hence, this artificial curtailment of air movement is primary political rather then historical, cultural or economic reasons. The flights we currently see today were only the result of full restoration of directly flights on 15 December 2008, and even then, they are certainly far less liberal than on the Taiwan-Japanese market. Anyhow, it all certainly does not point to the PRC as that "evil communist force" curtailing cross-straits flights. As recently as January this year, there was even a dispute between the two sides over an air route, where Taiwan wanted to stop China from launching 176 flights over the route because it was not consulted.

Another way to look at things...

Hence, any attempts to compare the Taiwan-Japan market versus the Taiwan-China market is not going to be easy due to all these artificial barriers imposed. But one should look at these numbers anyway:

*One-way seats in S2018 out of Taiwan*
- Japan: 4,794,611
- China: 4,030,273
- HK: 3,244,821
- Macau: 662, 882

Now China, HK and Macau has seperate datas only because they are seperate customs territories. Lump them all under the PRC category and we get:

- PRC: 7,937,976
- Japan: 4,794,611

So is Japan still the largest market for Taiwan? Are we going to now simplistically say that the Taiwanese has suddenly embraced the PRC over the Japanese?

tphuang wrote:

It's a true shame mainlanders only go to the well known spots. Having visited some of the less well known places, Taiwan really has a lot to offer. One of the most enjoyable places I've had the pleasure to visit in my lifetime.

Getting somewhat off topic. But in the opinion of some, it may be better for mainlanders to just stay in those well known spots, just so there are still breathing space elsewhere in Taiwan.

On a even more off topic note, Taiwan is call "Formosa" (aka Beautiful Island) for a reason. I won't disagree with you on that part.

tphuang wrote:

lol, I know where I'd pick between going to China and Japan for vacation. It's absolutely incredible how many people I know (including myself) consider Tokyo to be the most enjoyable big city to go for a first time visitor. And of course Hokkaido and Kyoto are up there too. But in terms of traffic between Taiwan and Japan, I would imagine there is at least as many Japanese visiting Taiwan as vice versa.

It's definitely two-way traffic. Taipei is usually among Top 3 cities visited by Japanese, next to Seoul and well, Honolulu. Taiwan is also the 4th most visited country by Japanese (after US, China, and S. Korea), which is very good number when you take the size of Taiwan into consideration:
https://www.jnto.go.jp/jpn/statistics/20180705.pdf

P.S. Not a big fan of Tokyo myself. Osaka has better food and Kyoto is always pleasant. Hokkaido is definitely the best, though, and is popular among Taiwanese/HKer for good reason.

huaiwei wrote:

*One-way seats in S2018 out of Taiwan*
- Japan: 4,794,611
- China: 4,030,273
- HK: 3,244,821
- Macau: 662, 882

Now China, HK and Macau has seperate datas only because they are seperate customs territories. Lump them all under the PRC category and we get:

Hong Kong is Hong Kong, China is China. BTW HKG-TPE, being such a busy route, is 80% O&D.
https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... 018-A4.pdf

huaiwei wrote:

Hence, 212 years of direct control by the Han Chinese (who still obviously form the majority race in Taiwan) versus 50 years of Japanese rule, and people here ignore 212 years of history to conclude that the Taiwanese are more Japanese than Chinese just because they happen to be well-treated by the Japanese colonial masters and still look towards the colonial era wth fondness? And you think the Taiwanese will travel mainly to Japan just because of this fondness?

Let's just say Taiwanese are Taiwanese. Not Chinese, not Japanese, but Taiwanese. BTW go tell those Amis or Tayals in Taiwan that they're Chinese, go ahead.

There is robust bi-directional traffic between Taiwan and Japan. Strong business, tourist and VFR traffic. The market is probably under served as is so not surprised it is growing.

Open sky and visa free travel also stimulates demand.

tphuang wrote:

Yes, I agree that's the party platform for DPP, but reality is that majority of Taiwanese don't want any change to current situation, which is why the official gov't position won't change outside of a real dramatic shift on the PRC side (and current tension is really nothing compared to 20 years ago).

I agree that CI and BR must be making a lot of money given the high demand and limited supply in the market. One only needs to see HKG-TPE traffic to see how much demand there is if the artificial barriers are lifted. Taiwan would probably be flooded with mainlanders like in HK. I'm not sure Taipei resident would like that. In the popular tourist places I visited, I probably saw more Japanese and HK visitors than mainlanders.

You seem to imply people want status quo, which is not the case. People want independence, or rather, not being annexed by China. If you take away the status quo option (as some surveys do), the survey result is loop-sided in favor of independence. Why? Because status quo is independence. Taiwan (under occupation by ROC Govt) functions as an independent democratic country. Even if China wasn't a one-party state with reprehensible human rights record, people in Taiwan most likely would still prefer being on its own. No one ever asks Singaporeans if they want to be annexed by China (or Malaysia)... they like status quo too.

The often repeated "not altering status quo" is about resisting annexation by China. It's not really a statement about Taiwan independence, which is more or less daily fact of life.

tphuang wrote:

I don't see how China's dictatorship has anything to do with this topic. Seems like you just want to bash the country.

The limit on flights between PRC and Taiwan is an artificial one. If there was open skies, it would be huge. As for your comment about China's bad dictatorship and lack free press, that is true, but this is also a gov't that has brought so many people out of poverty line in the past 40 years. Call it whatever you want, but the people living in there are enjoying the fruits of greater economic freedom, the freedom to travel and move around that they've never had in their lifetime. Saying they have no personal freedom is completely off base. Can you find another country that has seen this kind of transformation? Taiwan can be a model for China in the future, but it is also not exactly a model democracy. My friends in Taiwan would be able to tell you everything wrong with it.

yes I agree. 10 years ago, I saw people in the factories there sleeping in dormatories room with 6-8 beds.... today those same people have their own flat, cars... Are they really concern about the lack of free press... I really don't think so.

Actually, don't forget that a large number of traffic between mainland China and Taiwan are done via transiting at HKG. So just looking at the number of direct flights won't give a full picture on the market.

tphuang wrote:

As for your comment about China's bad dictatorship and lack free press, that is true, but this is also a gov't that has brought so many people out of poverty line in the past 40 years. Call it whatever you want, but the people living in there are enjoying the fruits of greater economic freedom, the freedom to travel and move around that they've never had in their lifetime. Saying they have no personal freedom is completely off base. Can you find another country that has seen this kind of transformation? Taiwan can be a model for China in the future, but it is also not exactly a model democracy. My friends in Taiwan would be able to tell you everything wrong with it.

But don't forget that all the "new" freedom they are getting to foster the degree of success China is having now is all comparative to the "first generation" PRC before reform and opening up. That's what people should be enjoying altogether all the times. It didn't helps that the "first generation" PRC, as well as pre-PRC powers are all doing a bad job in this aspect.
As for the power to get people out of poverty line in the past 40 years, and the economic boom experienced during the era, look at countries like South Korea and Taiwan after WWII. The area in Asia have right soil to attain such a development, and people work hard to contribute to success in the region, however just because of the nature of PRC, their economic achievements are attained about three decades later than other area in the region, and that they are attributed to the government instead of to the people.

Extremely understandable. My extensive family who are from Taiwan also prefered to go to South Korea, Japan, Singapore, etc rather than going to Mainland China.

There is 3 factor:
- Politics.
- Food and Architecture is quite similar. So it's not much to see in Mainland China.
- For shopping or attractions, other countries offer better products compared to mainland China. For shopping they went to Japan, for food they went to Singapore, for the sun they went to either Hawaii or Australia, and for scenery they went to New Zealand.

c933103 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

As for your comment about China's bad dictatorship and lack free press, that is true, but this is also a gov't that has brought so many people out of poverty line in the past 40 years. Call it whatever you want, but the people living in there are enjoying the fruits of greater economic freedom, the freedom to travel and move around that they've never had in their lifetime. Saying they have no personal freedom is completely off base. Can you find another country that has seen this kind of transformation? Taiwan can be a model for China in the future, but it is also not exactly a model democracy. My friends in Taiwan would be able to tell you everything wrong with it.

But don't forget that all the "new" freedom they are getting to foster the degree of success China is having now is all comparative to the "first generation" PRC before reform and opening up. That's what people should be enjoying altogether all the times. It didn't helps that the "first generation" PRC, as well as pre-PRC powers are all doing a bad job in this aspect.
As for the power to get people out of poverty line in the past 40 years, and the economic boom experienced during the era, look at countries like South Korea and Taiwan after WWII. The area in Asia have right soil to attain such a development, and people work hard to contribute to success in the region, however just because of the nature of PRC, their economic achievements are attained about three decades later than other area in the region, and that they are attributed to the government instead of to the people.

To put things in perspective, though, both Taiwan and South Korea were under authortarian rule also during its growth. Take South Korea, for example, there is a reason why Park Chung-hee is such a controversial figure - while he is the president that oversee South Korea turning from backwater to a modern nation, he also rule with an iron fist and his human rights record are far from stellar. Same for Taiwan, where Chiang dynasty rule it for a fairly long period, and Taiwan was under Martial Law for almost 40 years.

At the end, another thing to keep in mind is that PRC had been under some authoritarian rule one form or another since 300BC. Hard to just suddenly change the attitude of people and tell them that "democracy is a good thing". Chinese in some way does have that "slave mentality" IMO which they don't dare challenge authorities (not necessarily just gov't, but just look at the work culture over there).

P.S. I see that the thread is finally moved to non-AV

zakuivcustom wrote:

To put things in perspective, though, both Taiwan and South Korea were under authortarian rule also during its growth. Take South Korea, for example, there is a reason why Park Chung-hee is such a controversial figure - while he is the president that oversee South Korea turning from backwater to a modern nation, he also rule with an iron fist and his human rights record are far from stellar. Same for Taiwan, where Chiang dynasty rule it for a fairly long period, and Taiwan was under Martial Law for almost 40 years.

you probably can add Singapore to the list too

huaiwei wrote:

It is amazing how many Westerners here have such a simplistic view of the Taiwanese situation, ...

Forgive my fellow Westerners of whom MOST fall into a category of 'History-lite' when it comes to most Asian histories period.

All the books in the world will not match the understanding gained from visiting or living there (esp visiting several countries of the region) given that I've live in a few, I am also use to listening to people speak of several places around the world with zero first hand knowledge.

What's missing from this discussion is the tumultuous period and severe diminishing of aviation links when the US shuttered the embassy in Taipei and relocated to Beijing, but when Japan did it (and they were first to do so) that ended JAL ops for several years. China Airlines ended TPE-HND, ITM, FUK services as well. Traffic was carried between Taipei to Tokyo and Osaka by
Cathay Pacific -
HKG-TPE-HND return
HKG-TPE-ITM return
HKG-TPE-FUK return
HKG-TPE-SEL return

Northwest Orient - TPE-NRT-USA

Pan Am (to Okinawa-> Guam-HNL-SFO)

THAI Intl BKK-HKG-TPE-SEL return
THAI Intl BKK-HKG-TPE-ITM return

Singapore Airlines - SIN-HKG-TPE-HND return

CX was making big bank on their runs as Taipei Sungshan Airport (the Taoyuan facility opened in 1978) was flooded with CX 707s and L-1011s.

Then an understanding was reached (between China Japan & Taiwan), resulting in the creation of JAL subsidary, Japan Asia was created to serve Taiwan (Taipei and Kaohsuing) and with Tokyo Narita now opened. China Airlines could return to Tokyo but only to Haneda.

Addition services to Taipei picked up later with Qantas' Australia Asia Awys 747SP svc, followed by British Asia Awys 747 KLM Asia 747 and short lived Air France Asie but none of those were involved in Japan service. And as Taiwan and China relation thawed...we came to what we have today.

BN747

SeoulIncheon wrote:

I am extremely confused by this comment. The current government, People's Republic of China (hereinafter "Mao Chi a") never had any sovereignty over Taiwan/Formosa island. Yet, they still claim that the island, now part of Republic of China (commonly referred to as Taiwan) is part of Mao China. In contrast, Japan had sovereignty over most part of China, including Nanking and Shanghai, yet Japan after 1945, recognising the current status quo, never claimed ownership over any part of China, including Nanking.

So - wouldn't "Nanking, Japan" which was at least true less than one century ago, contain far more truth than Taiwan, China, which was never true in history?

Btw, Taiwan has open skies agreement with Japan, so more flights are permitted between Japan and Taiwan, than between Mao China and Taiwan which is limited by bilateral agreement. The reason is simple. The same is the case with almost every other Asian countries due to open skies with Japan and bilateral agreement limitation with Mao China.

Look, people can have different perspectives about whether Taiwan is or is not part of China, or indeed whether the Republic of China actually exist in name only. However your understanding of history was wrong to the extent of beggaring belief. Japan had as much sovereignty over China as Nazi Germany had over Poland. Japan was in no position to "recognise" anything after 1945 because they started an evil war of invasion and paid dearly for it as a defeated and surrendered party. Only a deranged or extremely confused mind could justify any claim of Japanese "ownership" of anywhere in China, least of all Nanjing (or Nanking), where hundreds of thousand of civilians fell under bayonets and machine guns.

Taiwan came under central Chinese government rule in 1683 and remained so until 1895 when Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed. Then after 1945 came back under the control of then KMT government. What do you mean by Taiwan, China was never true in history?

I could explain how the current China is uncognisable from Mao's era but I suspect I would be wasting keystrokes.

Cerecl wrote:

Look, people can have different perspectives about whether Taiwan is or is not part of China, or indeed whether the Republic of China actually exist in name only. However your understanding of history was wrong to the extent of beggaring belief. Japan had as much sovereignty over China as Nazi Germany had over Poland. Japan was in no position to "recognise" anything after 1945 because they started an evil war of invasion and paid dearly for it as a defeated and surrendered party. Only a deranged or extremely confused mind could justify any claim of Japanese "ownership" of anywhere in China, least of all Nanjing (or Nanking), where hundreds of thousand of civilians fell under bayonets and machine guns.

Germany do maintain claims on those territory until unification of both Germany in order to assure neighboring countries.

Taiwan came under central Chinese government rule in 1683 and remained so until 1895 when Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed. Then after 1945 came back under the control of then KMT government. What do you mean by Taiwan, China was never true in history?

1945-1949 was a timeframe shorter than the second Sino-Japan war itself.
And in 17-19th century Qing Dynasty didn't really finish their colonization activity throughout Taiwan.

I could explain how the current China is uncognisable from Mao's era but I suspect I would be wasting keystrokes.

You can explain how the reformed and opened up China is different from Mao China bit how much can you explain about the difference between Mao China and Xi China?

c933103 wrote:

Germany do maintain claims on those territory until unification of both Germany in order to assure neighboring countries.

Which Germany? I don't think these claims are recognised by most countries because it was, frankly, ridiculous.

1945-1949 was a timeframe shorter than the second Sino-Japan war itself.
And in 17-19th century Qing Dynasty didn't really finish their colonization activity throughout Taiwan.

And? The claim was that Taiwan, China never occurred in history. I don't see how what you wrote validates this claim.

You can explain how the reformed and opened up China is different from Mao China but how much can you explain about the difference between Mao China and Xi China?

Errrr, a lot? To name a few: macroscopically, the economic structures are fundamentally different and it is about 20-30 times the size (inflation adjusted), politics is now not the primary focus of everyone's life. Microscopically It doesn't take a day (now takes 1hr) to cover a distance of 100km in the poorer, hilly part of where I came from and unprecedented number of people can read, learn and have the opportunity to venture outside their country to see the rest of world.

People think because Xi is a relatively more dominant leader (especially compared to his predecessor) there is some comparability between him and Mao. The truth is the absolute authority Mao and Deng enjoyed is gone for good and every leader since then knows they need to listen and perform. It is no longer a dictatorial regime when the supreme leader is all but an emperor. Term limits have been removed but should he monumentally stuff up in some way and lose popular support his position is no longer secure. Millions of people died of hunger during Mao's days because of bad policies. A fraction of that toll today would cause serious political instability.