I think all they have to do is ask for forgiveness and pray it doesn’t happen again (repeat as necessary, while zealously damning others for more minor infractions)—isn’t that how most religions work?

OA412 wrote:

Particularly galling, the statute of limitations has run

Since there was an active operation to obstruct justice by a foreign government, this should easily allow to toll the limitation and prosecute. Should fit the delay in the discovery required for that.

Now the question is if there really is an interest in prosecuting sex abusers....

best regards
Thomas

MaverickM11 wrote:

Another banner day for religion:

"Rinsing abused victims with holy water and making one boy pose as Jesus: Grand Jury reveals the depravity of 300 Pennsylvania priests who defiled 1,000 children - and the Catholic church covered it up"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... years.html

The scale of historical abuse by the catholic church is probably the biggest scandal of the last 100 years. That it has been covered up by a succession of popes just rubs salt in the wounds of the victims. If there's a hell I hope all these people rot there for eternity.

jetero wrote:

I think all they have to do is ask for forgiveness and pray it doesn’t happen again (repeat as necessary, while zealously damning others for more minor infractions)—isn’t that how most religions work?

Of course. While convincing the families of the victims that a small cash payment and moving the kiddy-fiddling priest to a different location has fixed everything.

Rinse and repeat, ad infinitum.

Still, apparently we should be giving them credit for fixing this.

scbriml wrote:

Rinse and repeat, ad infinitum. :

but.. but.. but.. they have really changed their ways. Or will.... this time.. or next... one day for sure....

best regards
Thomas

Not to diminish the extent of these crimes, but sexual abuse in the religious hemisphere can't be limited to catholicism alone, can it? Will widespread misconduct be uncovered in other denominations, or other religions? Have there been already similar scandals, e.g. in the protestant churches?

While celibacy may be a crucial factor why catholic priests have abused children, the majority of abuse in general happens in the family or in the proximate social environment. Given that reverends, rabbis, imams or whatever other religious officials have a lot of mental power over their flocks I can't help but imagine that this power has been misused all over the world almost routinely and for generations.

Let me as my two cents here. As a resident, I trained in very Catholic Chicago. I carried a caseload of about 200 regular outpatients. Out of that caseload, I had five that were absolutely confirmed victims of the Catholic Church. Almost triple that number and you get the number of people who has friends or relatives who were victims of the Catholic Church. And that’s just one resident piddling over in the corner. I say victims of the Catholic Church because it wasn’t just the priest or the nun who abused them. It was the entire system. Many of these creeps are still in very powerful positions, and the church did nothing. These people have had horrible consequences dealing with what the CHURCH did to them. And what happened to the people who covered it up? Well let’s look at Boston’s Cardinal Law...he gets caught covering it up, and the old creep just gets moved to a cushier job in the Vatican, where he participates in a papal conclave and dies in a cushy bed in Rome.

So, NO VT, NO. The church hasn’t done nearly enough about this, and I take their words as nothing more than more words until we actually start seeing results. Call me a skeptic if you like, but there’s the old adage, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” The CHURCH has to earn its trust back, and by not doing everything they can to hold its members accountable in EVERY WAY, they aren’t trustworthy. No. It won’t be enough for a long, long time.

I’ve never said that the Church has done enough. I mere,y refuted the claim that they have done nothing. The facts are on my side of that argument.

BartSimpson wrote:

Not to diminish the extent of these crimes, but sexual abuse in the religious hemisphere can't be limited to catholicism alone, can it? Will widespread misconduct be uncovered in other denominations, or other religions? Have there been already similar scandals, e.g. in the protestant churches?

While celibacy may be a crucial factor why catholic priests have abused children, the majority of abuse in general happens in the family or in the proximate social environment. Given that reverends, rabbis, imams or whatever other religious officials have a lot of mental power over their flocks I can't help but imagine that this power has been misused all over the world almost routinely and for generations.

You are absolutely correct. We see it all the time. More kids get abused in church than public bathrooms by the trans people, for example. The Catholic Church, however, is by design a MASSIVE worldwide organization, centrally run from the top down, which indeed makes it different from just about any other organized religion out there. The same organization has proven time and time again that it puts its interests first, while selling you salvation—again no different than other organizations—but the magnitude of the scale yields the magnitude of the problem. The rub is basically this was corporately sanctioned child abuse. Imagine if this had happened at Bank of America or some other massive institution.

VTKillarney wrote:

I’ve never said that the Church has done enough. I mere,y refuted the claim that they have done nothing. The facts are on my side of that argument.

Your interpretation of the facts is naive and apologetic. The facts are they spent decades if not longer shattering lives and covering it up. They only started to give lip service to change once they were caught red handed. They turned the volume up only after their bottom line started to suffer.

Is the Catholic Church really a church or an international pedophile organization? It certainly appears the organization is rotten to its core.

luckyone wrote:

BartSimpson wrote:

Not to diminish the extent of these crimes, but sexual abuse in the religious hemisphere can't be limited to catholicism alone, can it? Will widespread misconduct be uncovered in other denominations, or other religions? Have there been already similar scandals, e.g. in the protestant churches?

While celibacy may be a crucial factor why catholic priests have abused children, the majority of abuse in general happens in the family or in the proximate social environment. Given that reverends, rabbis, imams or whatever other religious officials have a lot of mental power over their flocks I can't help but imagine that this power has been misused all over the world almost routinely and for generations.

You are absolutely correct. We see it all the time. More kids get abused in church than public bathrooms by the trans people, for example. The Catholic Church, however, is by design a MASSIVE worldwide organization, centrally run from the top down, which indeed makes it different from just about any other organized religion out there. The same organization has proven time and time again that it puts its interests first, while selling you salvation—again no different than other organizations—but the magnitude of the scale yields the magnitude of the problem. The rub is basically this was corporately sanctioned child abuse. Imagine if this had happened at Bank of America or some other massive institution.

The catholic Church is also an independent sovereign entity, and the Vatican a city state, making that easier. ....

Many other faith based organisations however do endorse sex abuse of children via spanking.

best regards
Thomas

luckyone wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

I’ve never said that the Church has done enough. I mere,y refuted the claim that they have done nothing. The facts are on my side of that argument.

Your interpretation of the facts is naive and apologetic. The facts are they spent decades if not longer shattering lives and covering it up. They only started to give lip service to change once they were caught red handed. They turned the volume up only after their bottom line started to suffer.

You may be displeased with the facts, but they are what they are. The Catholic Church has taken some steps to ensure that abuse does not happen in the future. Saying that they haven't is patently untrue which is why I initially challenged that statement. As a professional, I trust that you value truth.

Not only did the Church do NOTHING about it (sorry, VT, the facts are absolutely NOT on your side here), but they actively sought to destroy secret church records on the matter. So more than 300 were implicated, the statute of limitations has expired, more than 100 have died/retired/what have you, and ONLY TWO WERE CHARGED.

The abuse was widespread and systemic, across EVERY diocese in PA. And that's on the heels of what we know happened in Boston and the Boston Globe report and other dioceses across the country. "U.S. bishops have acknowledged that more than 17,000 people nationwide have reported being molested by priests and others in the church." That's only what we KNOW. And this isn't just run of the mill touching or fondling, this is perverted sick, twisted shit:

The abuse ranged from groping and masturbation to anal, oral and vaginal rape. One boy was forced to say confession to the priest who sexually abused him. A 9-year-old boy was forced to perform oral sex and then had his mouth washed out with holy water. Another boy was made to pose naked as if being crucified and then was photographed by a group of priests who Shapiro said produced and shared child pornography on church grounds.

WTF. And bishops and cardinals (all the way up) knew of it, conspired to cover it up, and protected the guilty at the expense of the innocent. It's a betrayal of innocence in sexual, moral, ethical and legal terms.

Tucson, Spokane, Portland, Davenport, San Diego, Sacramento, Fairbanks, Charleston, Wilmington, Louisville, Dallas, LA, Denver, Boston, and on and on....

Until or unless Catholics themselves take action--most obviously by starving the church of funds and hitting them where it hurts--the Catholic Church will never have a motivation to change.

The manmade construct of the priesthood is rubbish anyhow; let them marry, let more lay serve in the church, adapt or die.

slider wrote:

Not only did the Church do NOTHING about it (sorry, VT, the facts are absolutely NOT on your side here),

I was not talking historically. I was referring to what the church has done very recently. I gave examples. Yes, the facts are very much on my side. It is patently false to say that the church has done "nothing."

I get that people want to demonize the church, but facts don't bend just to appease your feelings.

slider wrote:

Until or unless Catholics themselves take action--most obviously by starving the church of funds and hitting them where it hurts--the Catholic Church will never have a motivation to change.

The Church already has motivation to change thanks to the millions upon millions of dollars that this scandal is costing the Church in civil lawsuits. This is in large party why the Church has put protections into place.

VTKillarney wrote:

slider wrote:

Not only did the Church do NOTHING about it (sorry, VT, the facts are absolutely NOT on your side here),

I was not talking historically. I was referring to what the church has done very recently. I gave examples. Yes, the facts are very much on my side. It is patently false to say that the church has done "nothing."

I get that people want to demonize the church, but facts don't bend just to app

VTKillarney wrote:

slider wrote:

Until or unless Catholics themselves take action--most obviously by starving the church of funds and hitting them where it hurts--the Catholic Church will never have a motivation to change.

The Church already has motivation to change thanks to the millions upon millions of dollars that this scandal is costing the Church in civil lawsuits. This is in large party why the Church has put protections into place.

ease your feelings.

Which proves MY point perfectly. They only claimed to care once it cost them. Which makes all of their (and your) claims of change ring VERY hollow and insincere. It does nothing to fix the real problem, which is that this was allowed...from the top, and nothing has been changed at the top. Call me crazy but in my opinion an organization (country?) that claims to be the representative of God should hold themselves to a higher standard.

VTKillarney wrote:

luckyone wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

I’ve never said that the Church has done enough. I mere,y refuted the claim that they have done nothing. The facts are on my side of that argument.

Your interpretation of the facts is naive and apologetic. The facts are they spent decades if not longer shattering lives and covering it up. They only started to give lip service to change once they were caught red handed. They turned the volume up only after their bottom line started to suffer.

You may be displeased with the facts, but they are what they are. The Catholic Church has taken some steps to ensure that abuse does not happen in the future. Saying that they haven't is patently untrue which is why I initially challenged that statement. As a professional, I trust that you value truth.

Our opinions about what constitutes changes implemented appear to vary greatly.

luckyone wrote:

Which proves MY point perfectly. They only claimed to care once it cost them. Which makes all of their (and your) claims of change ring VERY hollow and insincere.

My claim was simply that it is false to say that the Church has done absolutely nothing. My claim is true. Period.

luckyone wrote:

It does nothing to fix the real problem, which is that this was allowed...from the top, and nothing has been changed at the top.

I think you may underestimate the Church's fear of its civil liability. They don't like to pay money out. They like to take it in. But only the Church really knows what they have or haven't done at these high levels.

luckyone wrote:

Your interpretation of the facts is naive and apologetic

No, my recitation of the facts is a truthful statement - as evidenced by the specific examples that I gave. Again, I understand that the facts don't completely fit your preferred narrative, but facts are independent of your feelings.

VTKillarney wrote:

I get that people want to demonize the church, but facts don't bend just to appease your feelings.

I felt the need to single this out, and I'm asking in my best psychiatrist voice (with plenty of anger and counter transference underneath)...Why are you calling anger and outrage about irrefutable systemic child abuse "demonizing?" You don't see why people would be angry about systemic child abuse? Do you think that some people would say you're part of the problem?

VTKillarney wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Which proves MY point perfectly. They only claimed to care once it cost them. Which makes all of their (and your) claims of change ring VERY hollow and insincere.

My claim was simply that it is false to say that the Church has done absolutely nothing. My claim is true. Period.

luckyone wrote:

It does nothing to fix the real problem, which is that this was allowed...from the top, and nothing has been changed at the top.

I think you may underestimate the Church's fear of its civil liability. They don't like to pay money out. They like to take it in. But only the Church really knows what they have or haven't done at these high levels.

luckyone wrote:

Your interpretation of the facts is naive and apologetic

No, my recitation of the facts is a truthful statement - as evidenced by the specific examples that I gave. Again, I understand that the facts don't completely fit your preferred narrative, but facts are independent of your feelings.

You're still apologizing.

luckyone wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

I get that people want to demonize the church, but facts don't bend just to appease your feelings.

I felt the need to single this out, and I'm asking in my best psychiatrist voice (with plenty of anger and counter transference underneath)...Why are you calling anger and outrage about irrefutable systemic child abuse "demonizing?" You don't see why people would be angry about systemic child abuse? Do you think that some people would say you're part of the problem?

I wasn't attributing mal-intent to the word "demonizing." The Church should be demonized over this. People are rightfully angry and I chose a strong word to express that I feel that they should be VERY angry about what has happened. The abuse allegations are absolutely horrific.

Why dispelling an untruthful statement would make me a part of the problem... well... I just don't know. Lies enable abuse. You should be an advocate for the truth - even if it doesn't always fit your preferred narrative.

VTKillarney wrote:

luckyone wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

I get that people want to demonize the church, but facts don't bend just to appease your feelings.

I felt the need to single this out, and I'm asking in my best psychiatrist voice (with plenty of anger and counter transference underneath)...Why are you calling anger and outrage about irrefutable systemic child abuse "demonizing?" You don't see why people would be angry about systemic child abuse? Do you think that some people would say you're part of the problem?

I wasn't attributing mal-intent to the word "demonizing." The Church should be demonized over this. People are rightfully angry and I chose a strong word to express that I feel that they should be VERY angry about what has happened. The abuse allegations are absolutely horrific.

Why dispelling an untruthful statement would make me a part of the problem... well... I just don't know. Lies enable abuse. You should be an advocate for the truth - even if it doesn't always fit your preferred narrative.

Because your statements about change are only true when framed very specifically, semantics basically. There is no change when the people who let this happen aren't brought to justice. Telling a kid who was raped by a priest that "we don't know what happened at the high levels of the church," is not change. Waiting TWENTY YEARS (and this is just since we, the public, have known about this) to say the church has a moral crisis only after the bottom line is affect is not change. It's "Oh you're really serious? We thought you'd just swallow more of our drivel." It's more of the same. Cover up. Damage control. Protect the brand. Protect your power. And I'm done with this conversation because it's making me even more angry.

luckyone wrote:

Because your statements about change are only true when framed very specifically, semantics basically. There is no change when the people who let this happen aren't brought to justice.

This is tedious. You need to stop misrepresenting what I have said in an attempt to cling to your preferred narrative.

I have never made a comment on whether or not the Church has effectuated change. I have merely indicated that it is false to say that they have not taken any steps to protect against abuse happening in the future. The Church has taken some steps. I haven't weighted in on the effectiveness, scope or any other characterization of those steps. I have merely pointed out that steps have been taken.

luckyone wrote:

And I'm done with this conversation because it's making me even more angry.

If you take the time to understand what I have said - and what I have not said - I think that you would be much less angry.

VTKillarney wrote:

luckyone wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

I get that people want to demonize the church, but facts don't bend just to appease your feelings.

I felt the need to single this out, and I'm asking in my best psychiatrist voice (with plenty of anger and counter transference underneath)...Why are you calling anger and outrage about irrefutable systemic child abuse "demonizing?" You don't see why people would be angry about systemic child abuse? Do you think that some people would say you're part of the problem?

I wasn't attributing mal-intent to the word "demonizing." The Church should be demonized over this. People are rightfully angry and I chose a strong word to express that I feel that they should be VERY angry about what has happened. The abuse allegations are absolutely horrific.

Why dispelling an untruthful statement would make me a part of the problem... well... I just don't know. Lies enable abuse. You should be an advocate for the truth - even if it doesn't always fit your preferred narrative.

There is a difference between the church doing something about the abuse and the church making the appearance to do something about the abuse. You seem to have fallen for their PR moves which give the appearance that they care. When in reality, they have done nothing of substance to show that they are taking the matter seriously.

Lets us use a fun analogy:

Lets say Person A shoots person B. Then, after being 'demonized' by horrified onlookers, Person A gives person B a Band-Aid and says they'll try not to shoot anyone any more.

Now you (VTK) would argue until you are blue in the face that Person A did something about the issue and that should be recognized. Because factually speaking, they did in fact do something. They offered Person B a Band-Air for their gunshot would and offered a lip-service statement they they'll try to avoid shooting people in the future. Reasonable people everywhere will continue to be pissed because you can't just shoot someone, offer a Band-Aid and say sorry. But you will continue to argue that "THEY DID SOMETHING! LOOK AT THE BAND-AID!".

Person A did something. You have a valid argument that what they did will ultimately be ineffective.

The Church has done things. I have not commented whatsoever on whether or not those things will be proven to be effective.

People here really need to stop pretending that I have said things that I have never said.

It is false to say that the Church has done nothing. That is ALL that I have said - other than giving specific examples of what they have done.

VTKillarney wrote:

I have merely indicated that it is false to say that they have not taken any steps to protect against abuse happening in the future. The Church has taken some steps. I haven't weighted in on the effectiveness, scope or any other characterization of those steps. I have merely pointed out that steps have been taken.

Like an alcoholic who vows to stop drinking and attends regular AA meetings while having a full drink cabinet at home. It's not a question of if he starts drinking again, but when.

VTKillarney wrote:

I’ve never said that the Church has done enough. I mere,y refuted the claim that they have done nothing. The facts are on my side of that argument.

Not a very difficult argument to win now is it, VTK?

VTKillarney wrote:

Person A did something. You have a valid argument that what they did will ultimately be ineffective.

The Church has done things. I have not commented whatsoever on whether or not those things will be proven to be effective.

People here really need to stop pretending that I have said things that I have never said.

It is false to say that the Church has done nothing. That is ALL that I have said - other than giving specific examples of what they have done.

So you would defend Person A's Band-Aid response, even though it's clear that what they did was meaningless. If the action they took accomplishes nothing, how can you even continue to call it action?

Sometimes, its best to admit the being this pedantic in your arguments actually becomes analogous to defending criminals. You are taking time out of your day to stand-up for the bad guys by echoing their claims that they are taking action. You've become a mouthpiece on these boards for the Catholic Church and their defense of mass pedophilia.

I assume you will continue to do so, but is that really where you want to do with the limited hours in your day?

VTKillarney wrote:

The Church has done things.

Things being rape, sodomy, borderline physical torture, certain emotional torture and did so systematically over nearly a century (that is publicly known, anyhow, at this juncture, although stories of this happening go back to the Middle Ages as well).

slider wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

The Church has done things.

Things being rape, sodomy, borderline physical torture, certain emotional torture and did so systematically over nearly a century (that is publicly known, anyhow, at this juncture, although stories of this happening go back to the Middle Ages as well).

Nobody here has denied that.

VTKillarney wrote:

slider wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

The Church has done things.

Things being rape, sodomy, borderline physical torture, certain emotional torture and did so systematically over nearly a century (that is publicly known, anyhow, at this juncture, although stories of this happening go back to the Middle Ages as well).

Nobody here has denied that.

Right. So with that in mind, the Band-Aid they offered is so insignificant, that it is essentially meaningless. That is why people are arguing that they haven't done anything about it. I know you think they should get credit for the Band-Aid, but they won't.

2122M wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

slider wrote:

Things being rape, sodomy, borderline physical torture, certain emotional torture and did so systematically over nearly a century (that is publicly known, anyhow, at this juncture, although stories of this happening go back to the Middle Ages as well).

Nobody here has denied that.

Right. So with that in mind, the Band-Aid they offered is so insignificant, that it is essentially meaningless. That is why people are arguing that they haven't done anything about it. I know you think they should get credit for the Band-Aid, but they won't.

We don't know the extent of what they are currently doing. We just know that what they have done has not been sufficient.

I can say, however, that what they have done in the particular school and parish that I have knowledge of has been exemplary. But I appreciate that it's a big church.

VTKillarney wrote:

2122M wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

Nobody here has denied that.

Right. So with that in mind, the Band-Aid they offered is so insignificant, that it is essentially meaningless. That is why people are arguing that they haven't done anything about it. I know you think they should get credit for the Band-Aid, but they won't.

We don't know the extent of what they are currently doing. We just know that what they have done has not been sufficient.

I can say, however, that what they have done in the particular school and parish that I have knowledge of has been exemplary. But I appreciate that it's a big church.

What have they done in that particular school/parish?

2122M wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

2122M wrote:

Right. So with that in mind, the Band-Aid they offered is so insignificant, that it is essentially meaningless. That is why people are arguing that they haven't done anything about it. I know you think they should get credit for the Band-Aid, but they won't.

We don't know the extent of what they are currently doing. We just know that what they have done has not been sufficient.

I can say, however, that what they have done in the particular school and parish that I have knowledge of has been exemplary. But I appreciate that it's a big church.

What have they done in that particular school/parish?

I gave some examples earlier in this thread.

VTKillarney wrote:

2122M wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

We don't know the extent of what they are currently doing. We just know that what they have done has not been sufficient.

I can say, however, that what they have done in the particular school and parish that I have knowledge of has been exemplary. But I appreciate that it's a big church.

What have they done in that particular school/parish?

I gave some examples earlier in this thread.

Sensitivity training. Got it.

If you think that's enough to overcome systemic abuse in the most powerful organization on earth, then more power to you. You have bought what they were selling. And now you are trying to re-sell it here. I doubt you'll find many customers.

2122M wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

2122M wrote:

What have they done in that particular school/parish?

I gave some examples earlier in this thread.

Sensitivity training. Got it.

If you think that's enough to overcome systemic abuse in the most powerful organization on earth, then more power to you. You have bought what they were selling. And now you are trying to re-sell it here. I doubt you'll find many customers.

I gave several examples and there are several more that I didn't give just so I did not provide information that would identify this particular parish and school. Again, I am quite confident that the measures that have been taken are quite effective - and I am by nature skeptical of these things.

VTKillarney wrote:

2122M wrote:

VTKillarney wrote:

I gave some examples earlier in this thread.

Sensitivity training. Got it.

If you think that's enough to overcome systemic abuse in the most powerful organization on earth, then more power to you. You have bought what they were selling. And now you are trying to re-sell it here. I doubt you'll find many customers.

I gave several examples and there are several more that I didn't give just so I did not provide information that would identify this particular parish and school. Again, I am quite confident that the measures that have been taken are quite effective - and I am by nature skeptical of these things.

Translation: "They are doing good things, but I wont' tell you what they are, but trust me they're better now"

Forgive my skepticism, but you seem to know someone, or been somewhere, or have a personal connection to something for every topic, but you wont' give details for any of them. With that in mind, I'm forced to assume you simply making things up.

The subject at hand is horrific. Thousands of children have been sexually abused by catholic priests over a century, and the church has done nothing but thwarted, covered up, and lied. Wash, rinse, repeat. The sideshow over whether they deserve credit for the steps they were dragged kicking and screaming into implementing, is taking away from the horrible crimes the church has committed, and for which scant few priests have actually faced justice. In other words, knock it off with the sideshow.

I'm honestly surprised that a powerful Catholic from America hasn't told the Pope to suck an incense puck and start The America Catholic Church, which could allow for female priests, married priests and nuns, and do away with a lot of the rituals. We could call it Lutheranism or something. Seriously, though.... The Catholic Church is so obsessed in their membership numbers (like it's power or something) that they get stuck in the Three R's: Routine, Rhetoric, and Ritualism.... the exact thing that many American Catholics dispise.

What many don't seem to grasp is that the reason for the systematic coverup is that many of those pedophile priests from 20-30-40 years ago are the bishops and cardinals of today. Think about it--if a normal superior heard of the abuse, they would be outraged. If they had done it themselves, they'd think it was normal and no big deal.

Since the statute of limitations has run out for criminal and civil legal actions, too many of the RC ministers and administrators are dead or very old, directly going after them is futile. Better to do like many Catholics and those of other faiths have done and walk away from the institution and stop giving them any money. None in the collection plate if continue to go to mass, no Bingo, no buying games of chance to win a car, don't register as a parishioner, get married by the local mayor or judge (civil), avoid using a Catholic hospital, don't send your kids (even if great at sports) to a Catholic school or end up in a Catholic cemetery.

Call for politicians to cap tax breaks, limit the use of Bankruptcy, cap compensation of all religious ministers, make the faith groups, Churches and Dioceses sell property to pay for Judgments and Civil settlements. Politicians not appear with RC faith ministers or officials to show their objections to their hiding sexual abuse and adultery.

In other words we need to impoverish and diminish the position of the RCC in our communities.

ltbewr wrote:

Since the statute of limitations has run out for criminal and civil legal actions, too many of the RC ministers and administrators are dead or very old, directly going after them is futile.

But does the statute of limitations really apply to that case? There are rules on the book when that can be ignored, and i don´t see how those are not applicable to this.

best regards
Thomas

If an organisation works or is deeply infiltrated by crime, the laws in my land say there are grounds to terminate their existence.

I do not for one single second believe these atrocities were or, indeed, are, limited to the US and UK. It's a systematic problem with the RCC, and has been so for centuries. It's obvious to anyone that the RCC won't make any fundamental changes to eliminate this problem, and it should therefore be outlawed in one country after the other, until only certain nations in South America as well as Ireland and Italy are still willing to host them.

If the law of the individual land won't allow that, tax them. Tax them to death.

tommy1808 wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Since the statute of limitations has run out for criminal and civil legal actions, too many of the RC ministers and administrators are dead or very old, directly going after them is futile.

But does the statute of limitations really apply to that case? There are rules on the book when that can be ignored, and i don´t see how those are not applicable to this.

best regards
Thomas

You can never “ignore” the statute of limitations. There are, however, some circumstances that allow it to continue to run.

If you're still a practicing Catholic today I'm not sure any of these revelations will change your mind. After all Christianity is all about forgiveness isn't it ?

EstherLouise wrote:

I'm honestly surprised that a powerful Catholic from America hasn't told the Pope to suck an incense puck and start The America Catholic Church, which could allow for female priests, married priests and nuns, and do away with a lot of the rituals. We could call it Lutheranism or something. Seriously, though.... The Catholic Church is so obsessed in their membership numbers (like it's power or something) that they get stuck in the Three R's: Routine, Rhetoric, and Ritualism.... the exact thing that many American Catholics dispise.

Well, Vatican II was the big push for modernization in Catholicism. I don't think they'll bend any further.

But you hit on one of the driving reasons I'm a recovering (present tense, because it's always a condition, haha) Catholic...the blind adherence to ritual. Look, I respect it greatly, and respect the church's rituals and history to some degree and all that. But I depart from it greatly in the sense that many Catholics are hidebound timeclock punching Mass attenders. Little spirituality, just rote ritual, rinse and repeat, and so on.

Meanwhile, the construct of organized religion is under attack, some of it justified, some of it not, but they refuse to acknowledge it, address it, much less take corrective action. And then there's the systemic abuse by priests.

In fact remaining catholics being on the conservative side, a number of them want to undo Vatican II and go back to such nonsense as the tridentine mass in latin.

slider wrote:

Well, Vatican II was the big push for modernization in Catholicism. I don't think they'll bend any further.

I'm not so sure of that with the current Pope.

tommy1808 wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Since the statute of limitations has run out for criminal and civil legal actions, too many of the RC ministers and administrators are dead or very old, directly going after them is futile.

But does the statute of limitations really apply to that case? There are rules on the book when that can be ignored, and i don´t see how those are not applicable to this.

best regards
Thomas

It would depend on whether Pennsylvania's statute has a tolling provision, and if so what offenses cause the statute of limitations to toll. I believe child pornography is always a federal offense, and some of the accusations coming out of Pennsylvania involve child pornography, which would then implicate federal law and its tolling provisions. So it's possible the statute of limitations may still be running, but I can't say for certain because I haven't reviewed Pennsylvania's statute.

Child pornography can be a state or federal offense.

VTKillarney wrote:

I’ve never said that the Church has done enough. I merely refuted the claim that they have done nothing. The facts are on my side of that argument.

This is not true. You didn't merely refute an incorrect claim. You passed a value judgement suggestied they should be given credit and applauded. That is the issue.

Given the severity and systemic nature of what occurred, it would seem most in this thread are not willing to give credit or applaud them for developing a process or telling priests not to go on overnight trips.

Most seem to believe more should be done before credit or applause is given.

But, then again, I suppose all of us have different views on what an appropriate response is, deserving of credit and applause, to wide spread child sex abuse. I know what side I stand on.