B0pp0
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Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:36 pm

Prove me otherwise. Living in the US, Canada looks like a utopia versus the hellhole my nation of origin has devolved into. Perhaps if Civil War II happens the blue states can become provinces and live happily ever after.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:43 pm

I don't know...waiting almost a year for a heart surgery would prove you wrong or not?
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:54 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I don't know...waiting almost a year for a heart surgery would prove you wrong or not?

That's a fair trade-off if it means I won't necessarily go bankrupt.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
NIKV69
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:58 pm

B0pp0 wrote:
Prove me otherwise. Living in the US, Canada looks like a utopia versus the hellhole my nation of origin has devolved into. Perhaps if Civil War II happens the blue states can become provinces and live happily ever after.


No gun to your head saying you have to stay. You can leave whenever you want.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:03 pm

You really shouldn't categorize Canada as whole. Canada varies TREMENDOUSLY depending on where you are. This is exacerbated by Quebec's reluctance to be part of Canada in the first place. Quebec even has laws in place that discriminate against English speakers. No matter where you live, if you don't speak fluent French, your job prospects are limited. All federal employees, for example, must be fluent in French. Even a postal clerk in Inuvik.

The economy is beholden to the price of oil and is subservient to the economy of the United States. The health care system is available to all, but is often a bureaucratic nightmare. Outcomes are still quite good, although the evidence suggests that this has more to do with external factors than anything else.

The climate is at best "meh", and in most of Canada is downright miserable for half of the year.

The Prime Minister is a sexual abuser. So no matter what your thoughts are about Trump you aren't coming out better in that department.

All that said, Canada has a lot going for it. Crime rates are very low, the standard of living is high, and it ranks extremely high on the happiness index. I spend a significant amount of time in Canada, and it's a place that is very dear to my heart.

But is Canada a "utopia" compared to a "hellhole" in the United States? That is patently absurd. You still have dysfunctional politics, you still have 14% of people living below the poverty rate, which is nearly identical to the United States. The Canadian national debt is worse than the United States in terms of percent of GDP. The United States has a 20% higher per capita GDP and 22% higher purchasing power per capita. Canada's rich are a lot less rich than in the United States.

Canada and the United States are both great countries. They both have their advantages. Depending on what you value, one country may be a slightly better place to live than the other, but the overall differences are minor.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:05 pm

English Canadian-French Canadian relations might be a good place to start.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
tommy1808
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:15 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
I don't know...waiting almost a year for a heart surgery would prove you wrong or not?

That's a fair trade-off if it means I won't necessarily go bankrupt.


:checkmark:
how good is a speedy heart surgery if the invoice puts you in cardiac arrest...

And.. is that even true or the, today almost usual propaganda? First link i got with google came up with this:
Image

At least in Ontario you seem to be fine if you need hear surgery....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:26 pm

Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible. The conservatives are now polling better.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... uly-3-2018

33% say that hope about the future has worsened, compared to 19% who say that it has improved.
47% say that the immigration system has worsened, compared to 17% who say that it has improved.
38% say that the economy has worsened, compared to 15% who say that it has improved.
46% say that affordability of daily life has worsened, compared to 9% who say that it has improved.
23% say that access to quality healthcare was worsened, compared to 12% who say that it has improved.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
I don't know...waiting almost a year for a heart surgery would prove you wrong or not?

That's a fair trade-off if it means I won't necessarily go bankrupt.


:checkmark:
how good is a speedy heart surgery if the invoice puts you in cardiac arrest...



I certainly don't dispute this. I couldn't find how much would my surgery cost in the USA, but a similar procedure I found costs $165k. And that was without a 2 week stay in the hospital.

tommy1808 wrote:

And.. is that even true or the, today almost usual propaganda? First link i got with google came up with this:
Image

At least in Ontario you seem to be fine if you need hear surgery....

best regards
Thomas


The problem here is that the only kinds on cardiac surgery followed by the government of Ontario is angiography, angioplasty and bypass. If you have a heart problem other than blocked coronary arteries as I did, you're SOL. I had a diagnostic angiography done and I didn't have to wait for it. However, I had to wait 5 moths for the MRI just to find out if I'm a suitable candidate for the Ross procedure. And another 5 months for the surgery afterwards.
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ElPistolero
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:42 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible. The conservatives are now polling better.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... uly-3-2018

33% say that hope about the future has worsened, compared to 19% who say that it has improved.
47% say that the immigration system has worsened, compared to 17% who say that it has improved.
38% say that the economy has worsened, compared to 15% who say that it has improved.
46% say that affordability of daily life has worsened, compared to 9% who say that it has improved.
23% say that access to quality healthcare was worsened, compared to 12% who say that it has improved.


But that's not what the article says, does it?

Theres a 3rd column in there that says "stayed the same". Given that things weren't particularly bad (or indeed bad at all) when he came into power, a more objective reading of this poll is that the majority of those polled think things have stayed the same (not a bad thing), or improved. In fact, there isn't a single category in which the majority thinks things have worsened.

This is reflected in the article:

Trudeau’s approval rating continues to climb, up 5 points in just two weeks. A majority (55%) of Canadians approve (8% strongly/47% somewhat) of the performance of Justin Trudeau and the Liberal government, whereas less than half (45%) disapprove (22% strongly/22% somewhat) of his performance.

Why misrepresent a poll everyone can read?
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:43 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible. The conservatives are now polling better.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... uly-3-2018

33% say that hope about the future has worsened, compared to 19% who say that it has improved.
47% say that the immigration system has worsened, compared to 17% who say that it has improved.
38% say that the economy has worsened, compared to 15% who say that it has improved.
46% say that affordability of daily life has worsened, compared to 9% who say that it has improved.
23% say that access to quality healthcare was worsened, compared to 12% who say that it has improved.


But that's not what the article says, does it?

Theres a 3rd column in there that says "stayed the same". Given that things weren't particularly bad (or indeed bad at all) when he came into power, a more objective reading of this poll is that the majority of those polled think things have stayed the same (not a bad thing), or improved. In fact, there isn't a single category in which the majority thinks things have worsened.

This is reflected in the article:

Trudeau’s approval rating continues to climb, up 5 points in just two weeks. A majority (55%) of Canadians approve (8% strongly/47% somewhat) of the performance of Justin Trudeau and the Liberal government, whereas less than half (45%) disapprove (22% strongly/22% somewhat) of his performance.

Why misrepresent a poll everyone can read?

Nothing was misrepresented. As I said, the report clearly states that the Conservatives are now polling better than Trudeau. That's what matters if you are concerned with the possibility that the Conservatives will gain power. And that is why I posted the poll.

As for not posting the "stayed the same" statistics, I thought that it was pretty obvious where the other people fell. I was just trying to streamline the post. My apologies if you did not understand that.

I think you are looking for smoke where there is no fire. As I said earlier, I have a great affinity for Canada. I am just trying to be realistic about what is happening there, and part of that is being realistic that the Conservatives have gained ground in the polls - along with some potential reasons why that may be the case. There may be other reasons, though. For example, Trudeau's trip to India generated a lot of ridicule. Extending a dinner invitation to a convicted terrorist while in India certainly fueled that fire.

IMHO Trudeau has a good heart, but he is most definitely a naive politician. In that regard, the United States and Canada have something in common.

Here is a good article if you are interested in Trudeau's polling:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenie ... -1.4724388
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:22 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible. The conservatives are now polling better.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... uly-3-2018

33% say that hope about the future has worsened, compared to 19% who say that it has improved.
47% say that the immigration system has worsened, compared to 17% who say that it has improved.
38% say that the economy has worsened, compared to 15% who say that it has improved.
46% say that affordability of daily life has worsened, compared to 9% who say that it has improved.
23% say that access to quality healthcare was worsened, compared to 12% who say that it has improved.


But that's not what the article says, does it?

Theres a 3rd column in there that says "stayed the same". Given that things weren't particularly bad (or indeed bad at all) when he came into power, a more objective reading of this poll is that the majority of those polled think things have stayed the same (not a bad thing), or improved. In fact, there isn't a single category in which the majority thinks things have worsened.

This is reflected in the article:

Trudeau’s approval rating continues to climb, up 5 points in just two weeks. A majority (55%) of Canadians approve (8% strongly/47% somewhat) of the performance of Justin Trudeau and the Liberal government, whereas less than half (45%) disapprove (22% strongly/22% somewhat) of his performance.

Why misrepresent a poll everyone can read?

Nothing was misrepresented. As I said, the report clearly states that the Conservatives are now polling better than Trudeau. That's what matters if you are concerned with the possibility that the Conservatives will gain power. And that is why I posted the poll.

As for not posting the "stayed the same" statistics, I thought that it was pretty obvious where the other people fell. I was just trying to streamline the post. My apologies if you did not understand that.

I think you are looking for smoke where there is no fire. As I said earlier, I have a great affinity for Canada. I am just trying to be realistic about what is happening there, and part of that is being realistic that the Conservatives have gained ground in the polls - along with some potential reasons why that may be the case. There may be other reasons, though. For example, Trudeau's trip to India generated a lot of ridicule. Extending a dinner invitation to a convicted terrorist while in India certainly fueled that fire.

IMHO Trudeau has a good heart, but he is most definitely a naive politician. In that regard, the United States and Canada have something in common.

Here is a good article if you are interested in Trudeau's polling:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenie ... -1.4724388


To wit: "Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible".

If that isn't misrepresentation, I don't know what is. It's definitely not "realistic", or whatever else you're pretending to be.

I really don't care for the disingenuous "I thought that it was pretty obvious" line for omitting stats that upend your selective approach. It's "pretty obvious" to anyone with half a brain what you were trying to do.

And no, I don't particularly care about who's in power and how they're polling. I just don't care for the implicit message that Canada is somehow in decline right now. No "realistic" indicator suggests that.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:30 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
To wit: "Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible".

Fair enough.

A more accurate statement would have been: Justin Trudeau's polling is pretty horrible vis a vis the Conservatives.

ElPistolero wrote:
I really don't care for the disingenuous "I thought that it was pretty obvious" line for omitting stats that upend your selective approach. It's "pretty obvious" to anyone with half a brain what you were trying to do.

I posted the link to the full survey. If I was trying to misrepresent the survey, I most certainly would not have done that.

ElPistolero wrote:
I just don't care for the implicit message that Canada is somehow in decline right now. No "realistic" indicator suggests that.

The survey speaks for itself. I merely provided the results of the survey. I made absolutely no comment whatsoever on whether or not Canada was on the rise or in decline.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:55 pm

 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:06 pm

VTKillarney wrote:


Quoting a 2 years old article?
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:07 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:


Quoting a 2 years old article?

My bad. Google showed it as being from June 25, 2018.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:09 pm

 
mham001
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:10 pm

Who Is Strangling Solar Panels In The State Of Kentucky?

The Canadians?

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/05/st ... -kentucky/

I don't see it now but at the time, there was direct link between the group and Canadian government in these practices.
 
seb146
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:25 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
B0pp0 wrote:
Prove me otherwise. Living in the US, Canada looks like a utopia versus the hellhole my nation of origin has devolved into. Perhaps if Civil War II happens the blue states can become provinces and live happily ever after.


No gun to your head saying you have to stay. You can leave whenever you want.


Actually, with mass shootings all the time, it could be argued that there is a gun to our heads.

Besides, have you tried to immigrate to Canada from the United States? I looked into it and, for average Americans, it is damn near impossible.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
Besides, have you tried to immigrate to Canada from the United States? I looked into it and, for average Americans, it is damn near impossible.

Hmm... I found it to be the exact opposite - at least as far as their criteria is concerned. You get a score based on how much they believe you will contribute to their society. My score was plenty high enough.

Are you saying that even with a qualifying score it is nearly impossible?

An abbreviated version of the test is here:
http://www.canada-da.com/calculator.html

A longer form here:
http://www.canada-da.com/calculator.html
 
NIKV69
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:47 pm

seb146 wrote:

Actually, with mass shootings all the time, it could be argued that there is a gun to our heads.

Besides, have you tried to immigrate to Canada from the United States? I looked into it and, for average Americans, it is damn near impossible.


Not really and besides there are plenty of other countries to choose from. Unless of course you are just spouting off and bashing us while reaping the rewards of the opportunity you get here more than anywhere else.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
seb146
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:01 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, with mass shootings all the time, it could be argued that there is a gun to our heads.

Besides, have you tried to immigrate to Canada from the United States? I looked into it and, for average Americans, it is damn near impossible.


Not really and besides there are plenty of other countries to choose from. Unless of course you are just spouting off and bashing us while reaping the rewards of the opportunity you get here more than anywhere else.


Can't afford much secondary education, can't afford to get sick, can barely afford food and mortgage. Can't live openly for fear of being beaten or murdered. Have to be careful what stickers I put on my car for fear of vandalism and retaliation. What a glorious place to live!

There are other countries. But, that costs money to go there and apply for citizenship and, with the low wages we are paid in the United States and trying not to get sick, I can't really save up to immigrate.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
Can't afford much secondary education, can't afford to get sick, can barely afford food and mortgage. Can't live openly for fear of being beaten or murdered. Have to be careful what stickers I put on my car for fear of vandalism and retaliation. What a glorious place to live!

When I see the amazing and heart-wrenching sacrifices other people go through to get into the United States, it surprises me that you believe that you cannot emigrate to another country if you really had your heart set on it. If you aren't going to emigrate, I hope that you find happiness in the future. I mean that sincerely.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ken777
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:15 pm

For many people Canada is a pretty impressive country, just like Australian and New Zealand. Not massive populations but they seem to be making it work. These days we have the worst President in our history and there is no limit on the damage hen can do in the remaining months of his first term - IF he doesn't get kicked out of office.

For those who love our barbarian there is a need to wait and see how much damage he can do with tariffs and his Bromance with Putin. Hopefully you won't one a NATO supporter as that is at high risk with Putin's Helpful Fool.

In terms of health care, Canada has better performance in outcomes than the US, but most civilized countries have better outcomes than we do - and we pay twice the price. The other issue to look at is how many Canadians need to file a Medical Bankruptcy? That is common in the US and will increase when the Trump Health Insurance Premiums increase.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:17 pm

Ken777 wrote:
In terms of health care, Canada has better performance in outcomes than the US, but most civilized countries have better outcomes than we do - and we pay twice the price.

You have to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation.

We Americans are fat and lazy. So our health care may truly be better, but our outcomes may not be as good.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:40 pm

Ken777 wrote:
In terms of health care, Canada has better performance in outcomes than the US, but most civilized countries have better outcomes than we do - and we pay twice the price. The other issue to look at is how many Canadians need to file a Medical Bankruptcy? That is common in the US and will increase when the Trump Health Insurance Premiums increase.


Personal bankruptcy caused by health care bills is almost unheard of in Canada. However, I can imagine a situation where people can get into serious financial trouble due to health problems. If one receives a transplant, the immunosuppressants can cost a lot in most provinces.
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2122M
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:42 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
In terms of health care, Canada has better performance in outcomes than the US, but most civilized countries have better outcomes than we do - and we pay twice the price.

You have to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation.

We Americans are fat and lazy. So our health care may truly be better, but our outcomes may not be as good.


Did you see that story recently where the woman in Boston that got her leg trapped under a subway car. She was cut through the thigh down to the bone and was begging people not to call an ambulance as she feared she could not afford it.

But no, our healthcare system is great.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/health/s ... index.html
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:45 pm

Have you seen our gas and beer prices? You'll change your mind on our Utopian way of life pretty quick :lol:
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:47 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
In terms of health care, Canada has better performance in outcomes than the US, but most civilized countries have better outcomes than we do - and we pay twice the price.

You have to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation.

We Americans are fat and lazy. So our health care may truly be better, but our outcomes may not be as good.


Did you see that story recently where the woman in Boston that got her leg trapped under a subway car. She was cut through the thigh down to the bone and was begging people not to call an ambulance as she feared she could not afford it.

But no, our healthcare system is great.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/health/s ... index.html

Thanks for that anecdotal story.

That does not change the fact that our outcomes are negatively impacted because Americans are so fat and lazy. This is not a radical concept, believe me.

All I am saying is that you cannot use a single data point like life expectancy to determine which system provides better quality care. That's like saying that hospice provides the worst care of any medical facility because they have the highest mortality rate.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:52 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Have you seen our gas and beer prices? You'll change your mind on our Utopian way of life pretty quick :lol:


The beer is not even the worst. How the heck can a 4 CUC bottle of rum end up costing 28 CAD in Canada?
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zckls04
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:00 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
That does not change the fact that our outcomes are negatively impacted because Americans are so fat and lazy. This is not a radical concept, believe me.


Yes, I'm sure that's why infant mortality is the worst in the Western world as well. All those obese, lazy six-month-old babies.

There is another more radical possibility- for-profit healthcare is completely shit.
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VTKillarney
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:06 pm

zckls04 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:


Yes, I'm sure that's why infant mortality is the worst in the Western world as well. All those obese, lazy six-month-old babies.

There is another more radical possibility- for-profit healthcare is completely shit.

This explains it well:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 6a485df3cd

Punch line: Our care is among the best in the world. But our access to care needs to be improved.
 
2122M
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:07 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
You have to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation.

We Americans are fat and lazy. So our health care may truly be better, but our outcomes may not be as good.


Did you see that story recently where the woman in Boston that got her leg trapped under a subway car. She was cut through the thigh down to the bone and was begging people not to call an ambulance as she feared she could not afford it.

But no, our healthcare system is great.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/health/s ... index.html

Thanks for that anecdotal story.

That does not change the fact that our outcomes are negatively impacted because Americans are so fat and lazy. This is not a radical concept, believe me.

All I am saying is that you cannot use a single data point like life expectancy to determine which system provides better quality care. That's like saying that hospice provides the worst care of any medical facility because they have the highest mortality rate.


Its not a data point and its not 100% anecdotal. Would someone in Canada ever think for a moment about ambulance ride costs when there are standing there looking at the bone through their own leg while they risk bleeding out? In the same vein (pun intended) would a family in Canada have to make decisions about which cancer treatment center is the cheapest when a loved one is diagnosed? We are a nation that does not ask our sick and injured, "how can we help", instead we ask "how much can you afford". That alone makes it a terrible system.

You can dismiss all the scientific evidence you want regarding medical outcomes, but I'm going to assume that the medical journals and the authors that write them know a thing or two more about this issue than you do.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:12 pm

2122M wrote:
Its not a data point and its not 100% anecdotal. Would someone in Canada ever think for a moment about ambulance ride costs when there are standing there looking at the bone through their own leg while they risk bleeding out?

First, there is non evidence that she was at risk of bleeding out. That said, of course someone in Canada would think about ambulance ride costs. First, there is a co-pay. Second, if the ride is determined to be medically unnecessary, they have to pay for the ride. In a system with a very taxed budget, bureaucrats are happy to determine that a ride was not necessary. For a cut to the leg, this would have to be a genuine concern.

2122M wrote:
You can dismiss all the scientific evidence you want regarding medical outcomes, but I'm going to assume that the medical journals and the authors that write them know a thing or two more about this issue than you do.

Fantastic! I didn't realize that you could provide some journal citations for me since I was unaware that you had reviewed the medical literture. Please let me know what you have reviewed and I will pull it up on PubMed. I eagerly await your citations.
 
2122M
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
Its not a data point and its not 100% anecdotal. Would someone in Canada ever think for a moment about ambulance ride costs when there are standing there looking at the bone through their own leg while they risk bleeding out?

First, there is non evidence that she was at risk of bleeding out. That said, of course someone in Canada would think about ambulance ride costs. First, there is a co-pay. Second, if the ride is determined to be medically unnecessary, they have to pay for the ride. In a system with a very taxed budget, bureaucrats are happy to determine that a ride was not necessary. For a cut to the leg, this would have to be a genuine concern.

2122M wrote:
You can dismiss all the scientific evidence you want regarding medical outcomes, but I'm going to assume that the medical journals and the authors that write them know a thing or two more about this issue than you do.

Fantastic! I didn't realize that you could provide some journal citations for me since I was unaware that you had reviewed the medical literture. Please let me know what you have reviewed and I will pull it up on PubMed. I eagerly await your citations.


You're right, in Canada I'm sure everyone suffering a sever injury is deathly afraid of the $45 that they know will be their co-pay. That is exactly the same as the $224 to $2,204 dollars the ambulance ride might be in Boston. The important point there is not just the high cost, its the unknown cost. Our system is so f-ed up, people have no idea what anything costs.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:34 pm

The allegation is that Canadians don’t have to consider costs. It was important to clarify that they do.

How about those journal citations? Since you referenced articles I am excited to read them. I’ve got PubMed fired up. If you can’t remember the citation just give me the title or author.
 
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Jayafe
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:51 pm

2122M wrote:
...Our system is so f-ed up, people have no idea what anything costs.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/


Not just the system, the whole country....
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:53 pm

Jayafe wrote:
2122M wrote:
...Our system is so f-ed up, people have no idea what anything costs.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/


Not just the system, the whole country....

Huh? I know what things cost in just about every aspect of my life.
 
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Jayafe
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:03 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
2122M wrote:
...Our system is so f-ed up, people have no idea what anything costs.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/


Not just the system, the whole country....

Huh? I know what things cost in just about every aspect of my life.


I feel sad about you. You shouldn't need to think about the cost of saving your life. It has no price, and shouldn't be used as an economic way of scaring and ripping of population. But hey, if you're happy defending that...
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:13 pm

Jayafe wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Jayafe wrote:

Not just the system, the whole country....

Huh? I know what things cost in just about every aspect of my life.


I feel sad about you. You shouldn't need to think about the cost of saving your life. It has no price, and shouldn't be used as an economic way of scaring and ripping of population. But hey, if you're happy defending that...

No need to be sad for me. I have no problem paying a reasonable price. I don’t expect free health care. I’ve yet to find a country that offers it.

And yes, I will defend having to pay for health care. We have moved past slavery, thank God.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 11754
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
Can't afford much secondary education, can't afford to get sick, can barely afford food and mortgage. Can't live openly for fear of being beaten or murdered. Have to be careful what stickers I put on my car for fear of vandalism and retaliation. What a glorious place to live!

There are other countries. But, that costs money to go there and apply for citizenship and, with the low wages we are paid in the United States and trying not to get sick, I can't really save up to immigrate.


Much of the toxicity out there has been created by your side of the aisle. As far the rest. Well maybe you should read up on Sheldon Adelson. A boy born into a below average income family who didn't share your negative view on this country. I will leave you a quote.

"An entrepreneur is born with the mentality to take risks, though there are several important characteristics: courage, faith in yourself, and above all, even when you fail, to learn from failure and get up and try again."
-Sheldon Adelson, 2013

Having 40 billion dollars. Not bad for a college drop out huh?

One can continue to blame people that don't agree with you or can go out there and get it. I suggest you stop the propaganda and hate mongering and start working your butt off. You may find it works wonders.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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LockheedBBD
Posts: 511
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Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:46 pm

seb146 wrote:

Besides, have you tried to immigrate to Canada from the United States? I looked into it and, for average Americans, it is damn near impossible.


Besides illegal immigration, legal immigration to the U.S. is much harder. Canada will accept pretty much anyone with a pulse, as long as you can come up with any false sob story and there are ISIS terrorists roaming freely on the streets (see: https://ipolitics.ca/2018/05/11/conserv ... execution/ and see: https://globalnews.ca/news/4205480/cana ... -fighters/ ). That may have been one reason why the Trump administration declared Canada a security threat. You can also blame Canada for the likes of Justin Bieber, *cringe*. Add to that, a subsidized/bailed-out Bombardier is the ire of both Boeing and Embraer (a.k.a. Boeing Brazil).
 
mham001
Posts: 4964
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:55 pm

zckls04 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:


Yes, I'm sure that's why infant mortality is the worst in the Western world as well.


Except it isn't. As usual, much of the difference is due to reporting differences. But it does give the unintuitive hater a talking point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 6a485df3cd
 
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LockheedBBD
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:04 am

seb146 wrote:

with the low wages we are paid in the United States and trying not to get sick, I can't really save up to immigrate.


From my brief research, some professions such as engineering command much higher wages in the U.S. compared to other countries such as Canada. For example, on average a software engineer in Canada would get paid around $56k USD /year, whereas it is $99k USD /year in the US.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6471
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:16 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
on average a software engineer in Canada would get paid around $56k USD /year, whereas it is $99k USD /year in the US.

But how's the cost of living? Taxation? ROI from those taxes? I'd gladly give up about $15k from my yearly salary if it meant I could have affordable healthcare, affordable college, and a progressive government willing to evolve with the times.

In the US, if I gave up $15k from my salary, the bulk of it will likely go towards the military (of course, in my current line of work, I'd benefit if it meant more programs rolling out), with barely anything going to pay for science or college or healthcare.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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LockheedBBD
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:34 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
on average a software engineer in Canada would get paid around $56k USD /year, whereas it is $99k USD /year in the US.

But how's the cost of living? Taxation? ROI from those taxes? I'd gladly give up about $15k from my yearly salary if it meant I could have affordable healthcare, affordable college, and a progressive government willing to evolve with the times.

In the US, if I gave up $15k from my salary, the bulk of it will likely go towards the military (of course, in my current line of work, I'd benefit if it meant more programs rolling out), with barely anything going to pay for science or college or healthcare.


From what I've researched, cost of living (food, goods, services, housing) is higher in Canada as it is in many smaller countries. It seems that total income tax would depend on which state/province you reside in, up to 35% - 45% of your total pre-tax income. The $56k mentioned above is pre-tax. Certain aspects of healthcare would generally be free, but you would need private insurance for certain prescription medications, any vision care/surgery, and any dental care. College/University tuition for locals is around $3000-$4000 USD a semester, for Medical/Dental/Pharmacy/Law School, it is around $19,000 USD /year. Based on my quick Google search, the average general physician in Canada makes around $259k USD/year pre-tax. I suppose that medical school would provide the best return on investment if you moved to Canada. For engineers, the U.S. is the clear winner if you're able to secure a 100k+ USD/year job. For those lower on the salary spectrum, Canada might be more viable.


The median commercial pilot salary in Canada is around $115k USD/year. In the U.S., it is $130k USD/year. In that scenario, it seems that moving to Canada might be more advantageous. But there are more jobs available in the U.S., so there's that elephant in the room.
 
seb146
Posts: 17315
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:08 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
seb146 wrote:

with the low wages we are paid in the United States and trying not to get sick, I can't really save up to immigrate.


From my brief research, some professions such as engineering command much higher wages in the U.S. compared to other countries such as Canada. For example, on average a software engineer in Canada would get paid around $56k USD /year, whereas it is $99k USD /year in the US.


Which is fantastic. Except taking on crushing student load debt. And still, we can not afford to get sick.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6471
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:08 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
For engineers, the U.S. is the clear winner if you're able to secure a 100k+ USD/year job.

Unless you're a guru in your field, you won't even get close to that when starting out. Heck, I began at $63k and 5 years into a different field I'm still nowhere near $100k (though getting closer).

CA may have jobs that start at $100k but only because most of it is to pay for the high cost of living. The ideal thing would be to make $100k in an area with low cost of living. Take me back to MO with my current salary and I'd enjoy life far more than in MD (a dollar goes WAY further in MO than in MD, even in STL).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:52 am

seb146 wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
seb146 wrote:

with the low wages we are paid in the United States and trying not to get sick, I can't really save up to immigrate.


From my brief research, some professions such as engineering command much higher wages in the U.S. compared to other countries such as Canada. For example, on average a software engineer in Canada would get paid around $56k USD /year, whereas it is $99k USD /year in the US.


Which is fantastic. Except taking on crushing student load debt. And still, we can not afford to get sick.

Tons and tons of people figure it out.
 
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zckls04
Posts: 2773
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Canada is perfect and never does anything wrong.

Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:36 am

VTKillarney wrote:
Punch line: Our care is among the best in the world. But our access to care needs to be improved.


Well of course. Nobody's saying the doctors are crap. Access to care and spiraling costs are the entire problem.

mham001 wrote:
Except it isn't. As usual, much of the difference is due to reporting differences. But it does give the unintuitive hater a talking point.


Unintuitive hater? What a snowflake.

Anyway, here's an example study:

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/bri ... as-health/

"Finally, the study found that the mortality gap between the U.S. and both Finland and Austria is the widest after the first month of life (in the postneonatal period). In fact, the authors suggest that, in terms of understanding the U.S. disadvantage in infant mortality, the postneonatal period is at least equal in importance to health at the time of birth. They conclude that almost all of the U.S.’s underperformance in postneonatal mortality – infant deaths after the first month of life – may be explained by socioeconomic inequality."
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