Solodeji
Topic Author
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:39 pm

Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:39 pm

About a couple of days ago, there was a tragic accident in the city of Lagos Nigeria, on popular Otedola bridge in Ikeja, a fuel tanker loaded with highly flammable product (petrol to be precised), plying the highway suddenly lost its grip on the busy road, to cut the long story short, the aftermath of the accident razed at least 54 vehicles, with 9 deaths including children and left many injured. Before the occurrence of this incident, it has been a topic and debate on social media, suggesting the restriction of these dangerous vehicles on the major roads. Do you concur to this suggestion? As this could reduce the rate of sudden deaths and dangers on roads.

The gory photos of the scene can be seen below;
https://www.eaglesnewsmedia.com/2018/06 ... edola.html
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 7859
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:02 pm

I don't see an issue in the USA with this. While there are accidents involving trucks caring dangerous liquids and items they seem to be few and far between. I don't know what the safety rules are here versus Nigeria or the road conditions and truck maintenance and driver training etc. But I suspect that is likely a major part of the issue.

(Honestly trains here seem to have a bigger problem than trucks but that is probably due to trains carrying more hazardous material and the larger scale of any train accident.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:47 pm

All the more reason to be in support of pipelines. Not to mention the greenhouse gasses that these trucks pump out.

That said, would I radically change our rules because of a single accident in Nigeria? No, not with that as a basis.
 
seb146
Posts: 17304
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
All the more reason to be in support of pipelines. Not to mention the greenhouse gasses that these trucks pump out.

That said, would I radically change our rules because of a single accident in Nigeria? No, not with that as a basis.


Turning drinking water to poison is so much better

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... st_century

When I was a truck driver, the federal rules on tankers and flatbeads was different than standard trailers. Even when I was carrying a mixed load which included regular household batteries, I still had to display haz-mat decals on the trailer.

Tankers, from what I understand, are more difficult to drive. The contents are constantly moving. Stopping a tanker takes a little longer. In the United States, there are regular inspections of valves and the tank itself. In fact, every time the tanker moves, the driver must walk around to make sure all the hoses, valves, and tires are in proper working order.

The Lagos accident could happen in the United States, but, it would start with some idiot in a car saying "look what I can do!"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
All the more reason to be in support of pipelines. Not to mention the greenhouse gasses that these trucks pump out.

That said, would I radically change our rules because of a single accident in Nigeria? No, not with that as a basis.


Turning drinking water to poison is so much better

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... st_century

Your argument is nothing more than a logical fallacy. Just because pipelines aren't perfect does not mean that they are the worst. What you didn't say was that, in terms of barrels spilled per year, transporting oil and gas by truck is the worst method of transportation. Trucks spill more oil and gas than both rail and pipeline, averaging around 326 barrels per million tons moved every mile. When pipelines do spill, the vast majority of spills occur in a facility rather than in actual line pipe.
These facilities are well-equipped to contain spills quickly and as such, pipeline spills boast a high product-recovery rate.

Regardless, since I made the original assertion, I will share some relevant data:
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/htm ... -5716.html
https://www.strata.org/pdf/2017/pipelines.pdf

You also ignored important aspects of the overall argument - such as the fact that trucks belch MUCH more greenhouses than pipelines and the fact that truck fatalities are more than five times greater than compared to pipelines.

Don't debate using logical fallacies. You are better than that.
 
seb146
Posts: 17304
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:23 am

VTKillarney wrote:
seb146 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
All the more reason to be in support of pipelines. Not to mention the greenhouse gasses that these trucks pump out.

That said, would I radically change our rules because of a single accident in Nigeria? No, not with that as a basis.


Turning drinking water to poison is so much better

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... st_century

Your argument is nothing more than a logical fallacy. Just because pipelines aren't perfect does not mean that they are the worst. What you didn't say was that, in terms of barrels spilled per year, transporting oil and gas by truck is the worst method of transportation. Trucks spill more oil and gas than both rail and pipeline, averaging around 326 barrels per million tons moved every mile. When pipelines do spill, the vast majority of spills occur in a facility rather than in actual line pipe.
These facilities are well-equipped to contain spills quickly and as such, pipeline spills boast a high product-recovery rate.

Regardless, since I made the original assertion, I will share some relevant data:
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/htm ... -5716.html
https://www.strata.org/pdf/2017/pipelines.pdf

You also ignored important aspects of the overall argument - such as the fact that trucks belch MUCH more greenhouses than pipelines and the fact that truck fatalities are more than five times greater than compared to pipelines.

Don't debate using logical fallacies. You are better than that.


First of all, you don't know me so don't.

Second: WHEN there is a leak, it could take weeks to find where the leak is and even more time to fix it. The pipeline will have to be closed, stopping the flow of oil and giving oil companies an excuse to jack up prices. If a fuel tanker ruptures, it is one tanker. Hours, probably, before the site is contained and cleaned. Not weeks.

We need to move beyond fossil fuels anyway. Not that you in Russia want that.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
WIederling
Posts: 6258
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:49 am

seb146 wrote:
We need to move beyond fossil fuels anyway. Not that you in Russia want that.....


At the moment the US is pushing in a rather aggressive way for selling fracking products :: oil, LNG to Europe and elsewhere
while keeping up a strong narrative of "Kaufe nicht beim Juden ^H Putin".
( afaik the LNG is to some part relabeled Russian gas :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7154
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:24 am

seb146 wrote:
If a fuel tanker ruptures, it is one tanker. Hours, probably, before the site is contained and cleaned. Not weeks.


Just out of curiosity, you ever deal with one? I have. A gasoline tanker took the ramp between 1-71 North and I-264 West a bit too fast and went into the rock face. Luckily, only the driver was killed. The fire was impressive. People were smelling fuel in their backyards a quarter mile away for days after the incident. It took weeks to clean it up.

Large spills, regardless of where they are or where they flow from are a pain in the ass to clean up and the time is typically measured in weeks and months not hours and days.

Solodeji wrote:
suggesting the restriction of these dangerous vehicles on the major roads


To the OP's question, here in the US, there is a good chance that a tanker carrying hazardous or flammable material may have been restricted from a bridge like that. Certainly, they are restricted from many tunnels along the interstate system. I guess a risk management analysis is done and the decision is made whether to restrict or not.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:25 am

seb146 wrote:

First of all, you don't know me so don't.

Since I don’t know you I’m not allowed to point out your factual errors? That seems rather entitled.

seb146 wrote:
Second: WHEN there is a leak, it could take weeks to find where the leak is and even more time to fix it. The pipeline will have to be closed, stopping the flow of oil and giving oil companies an excuse to jack up prices. If a fuel tanker ruptures, it is one tanker. Hours, probably, before the site is contained and cleaned. Not weeks.

I’ve presented scientific research indicating that trucks are much less environmentally friendly than pipelines. You’ve presented... an anecdote. You lose.

seb146 wrote:
We need to move beyond fossil fuels anyway. Not that you in Russia want that.....

And there it is. Rather than reconsider your viewpoint when presented with scientific facts, you go for the baseless ad hominem attack. Even more points for making it about Russia! This is the new left, ladies and gentlemen. How ironic that they are now the anti-science party.


By the way, day two of your being caught lying and dodging my simple little question:
VTKillarney wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
So let's do a little test and see if you really can incorporate facts. You said,
seb146 wrote:
You get all upset when your own tactics are used on you.

Care to provide an example in order to show that you aren't just making claims up?


Couple that with your lie about Trump not visiting the troops on the 4th and you had a very bad day.

And now you kick off today by being anti-science. And the day has just begun!

To be honest, debating you has become too easy. I don’t feel that much of a sense of accomplishment since there wasn’t really a challenge in the first place.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 13385
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:24 am

If you shift these vehicles from major roads, then they will be causing worse risks on local roads to people and property. I know of the devastation an accident involving a fuel tanker can be from too many here in my home area of New Jersey. Fire under an over pass making it unsafe, a rollover onto the lot of car dealership destroying dozens of cars, fires in the street sewers, pollution of local waterways, too many drivers and others facing a horrible death by fire.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 6930
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:35 am

Pipelines and trucks are not really in competition. Pipelines are good for transporting massive amounts over long distances, trucks are good for transporting the fuel from local distribution centres to the end customer, who has a small to medium demand.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2096
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:03 pm

In Seattle the electronic reader boards will regular announce tanker restrictions. It usually is related to tunnels and their fire suppression systems undergoing maintenance. I had a friend who owned a gas distribution business - he described it as a high stress job, and it was safety concerns that made it so.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
seb146
Posts: 17304
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:46 pm

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
If a fuel tanker ruptures, it is one tanker. Hours, probably, before the site is contained and cleaned. Not weeks.


Just out of curiosity, you ever deal with one? I have. A gasoline tanker took the ramp between 1-71 North and I-264 West a bit too fast and went into the rock face. Luckily, only the driver was killed. The fire was impressive. People were smelling fuel in their backyards a quarter mile away for days after the incident. It took weeks to clean it up.

Large spills, regardless of where they are or where they flow from are a pain in the ass to clean up and the time is typically measured in weeks and months not hours and days.


And the leak is found very early on so the groundwater is not contaminated the way it is with pipelines.

My point is that we need to get off fossil fuel.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 2874
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:52 pm

As far as banning tankers from major roads is concerned, Spain did exactly the opposite after the Los Alfaques disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alfaques_disaster
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7154
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:52 pm

ltbewr wrote:
If you shift these vehicles from major roads, then they will be causing worse risks on local roads to people and property. I know of the devastation an accident involving a fuel tanker can be from too many here in my home area of New Jersey. Fire under an over pass making it unsafe, a rollover onto the lot of car dealership destroying dozens of cars, fires in the street sewers, pollution of local waterways, too many drivers and others facing a horrible death by fire.


It’s not a matter of shifting from a major road to a Minor one, but a matter of attempting to mitigate that risk of a limited access/egress area such as a bridge or tunnel or road that is bounded by cliffs/rock faces. Here in the states, there are plenty of bridges and tunnels that restrict such traffic due to the limited access.

seb146 wrote:
My point is that we need to get off fossil fuel.

Your fallacies aside, that is a discussion for another thread. This one concerns banning over-the-road tankers from main, heavily trafficked roads.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
seb146
Posts: 17304
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 am

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
My point is that we need to get off fossil fuel.

Your fallacies aside, that is a discussion for another thread. This one concerns banning over-the-road tankers from main, heavily trafficked roads.


I don't know what "fallacies" you are talking about. I just base my opinions on what I see.

As far as taking tankers off busy highways, that is not really possible in the United States. Many of the freeways paved over the old highways. The best example is I-84 and US 30 through Oregon and Idaho. There are already restrictions on hazardous materials going through tunnels.

Side note and topic for another thread WSDOT made a huge mistake taking away one of the three bores in the Mt Baker Tunnels on I-90 in Seattle. One of the reasons they had three tunnels in the first place was a deadly, fiery accident.

In the United States, in order to drive a tanker, a driver must pass a standard Commercial Drivers test for a CDL-A and, then, a separate test for tanker endorsement. That still does not account for the other idiots on the road driving sports cars saying "watch what I can do" or "OMG!!! I have to tweet about this!" or "I wonder if that beer is still cold."
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:38 am

seb146 wrote:

As far as taking tankers off busy highways, that is not really possible in the United States. Many of the freeways paved over the old highways. The best example is I-84 and US 30 through Oregon and Idaho. There are already restrictions on hazardous materials going through tunnels.

So let me get this straight. Because tanker trucks have to be on SOME freeways we have to let them on ALL freeways? That would most definitely be a logical fallacy.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7154
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:26 pm

seb146 wrote:

As far as taking tankers off busy highways, that is not really possible in the United States. Many of the freeways paved over the old highways. The best example is I-84 and US 30 through Oregon and Idaho. There are already restrictions on hazardous materials going through tunnels.


Ummm, aren’t you pointing out that we already restrict hazardous materials from certain roads?

[quote=“seb146”]That still does not account for the other idiots on the road driving sports cars saying "watch what I can do" or "OMG!!! I have to tweet about this!" or "I wonder if that beer is still cold."[/quote]

Your point being? I would hope the rules restricting certain vehicles from certain roads are generated after making a risk management analysis based on traffic, access, protection and mitigation resources, history and current motor vehicle code, among other factors.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
seb146
Posts: 17304
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:34 pm

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:

As far as taking tankers off busy highways, that is not really possible in the United States. Many of the freeways paved over the old highways. The best example is I-84 and US 30 through Oregon and Idaho. There are already restrictions on hazardous materials going through tunnels.


Ummm, aren’t you pointing out that we already restrict hazardous materials from certain roads?

[quote=“seb146”]That still does not account for the other idiots on the road driving sports cars saying "watch what I can do" or "OMG!!! I have to tweet about this!" or "I wonder if that beer is still cold."


Your point being? I would hope the rules restricting certain vehicles from certain roads are generated after making a risk management analysis based on traffic, access, protection and mitigation resources, history and current motor vehicle code, among other factors.[/quote]

What happened in Nigeria and Spain is that the highway is very heavily traveled. The question is: would tankers be restricted from such roadways in the United States. They probably would be by time. Meaning: no tankers allowed during heavy traffic times. I have not done much research, but I am guessing the United States Department of Transportation or the state equivalent, made the rule of "no tankers in tunnels." It is not a hard-and-fast rule, either. I can take you through several tunnels in Oregon where there is no such ban. One is on I-84 through the Columbia River Gorge. Very heavily traveled during the summer.

If there were more accidents involving heavy traffic and tankers, the federal DOT would probably step in and make new rules. That still does not fix stupid (referring to my second point about idiot drivers).
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7154
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:30 pm

seb146 wrote:
can take you through several tunnels in Oregon where there is no such ban. One is on I-84 through the Columbia River Gorge. Very heavily traveled during the summer.


And, I can take you through several in Pennsylvania on the Turnpike where they are banned.

Here, just recently, trucks placarded as carrying hazardous materials were banned from our East-End Tunnels because the fire suppression system went down during the winter.

It all depends on where you are and the circumstances involved. In other words, an analysis is done and a determination is made.

seb146 wrote:
If there were more accidents involving heavy traffic and tankers, the federal DOT would probably step in and make new rules. That still does not fix stupid (referring to my second point about idiot drivers)


Yup, you’re probably right. Or, at the minimum, it would trigger some sort of review to determine why there were suddenly more accidents in those situations.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
User avatar
cjg225
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:43 pm

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
can take you through several tunnels in Oregon where there is no such ban. One is on I-84 through the Columbia River Gorge. Very heavily traveled during the summer.


And, I can take you through several in Pennsylvania on the Turnpike where they are banned.

Here, just recently, trucks placarded as carrying hazardous materials were banned from our East-End Tunnels because the fire suppression system went down during the winter.

It all depends on where you are and the circumstances involved. In other words, an analysis is done and a determination is made.

So we get them off the Turnpike (e.g. between Lehigh Valley and Mahoning Valley) and send them up over winding mountain passes to avoid them being in the tunnel.

Neither good nor bad. Everything has a trade-off.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
seb146
Posts: 17304
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:29 pm

cjg225 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
can take you through several tunnels in Oregon where there is no such ban. One is on I-84 through the Columbia River Gorge. Very heavily traveled during the summer.


And, I can take you through several in Pennsylvania on the Turnpike where they are banned.

Here, just recently, trucks placarded as carrying hazardous materials were banned from our East-End Tunnels because the fire suppression system went down during the winter.

It all depends on where you are and the circumstances involved. In other words, an analysis is done and a determination is made.

So we get them off the Turnpike (e.g. between Lehigh Valley and Mahoning Valley) and send them up over winding mountain passes to avoid them being in the tunnel.

Neither good nor bad. Everything has a trade-off.


What is the toll on the turnpike for that distance vs.fuel consumption taking the side road? Let's not forget the time and money to maintain two roads. I am all for keeping tankers out of tunnels for safety reasons.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Fuel tankers supposed restricted from major roads

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:49 am

As anyone who has spent in time in Africa, Nigeria in particular, will testify to, the standards and conditions of roads, vehicles and drivers simply cannot be compared to what you may see in the western world. The roads are beyond crap, the vehicles defect in every possible way that'll still see the wheels turning and the drivers, well, let's just say they are a bit differential to rules of the road, to the extent said rules actually exist.

Therefore, comparing standards and rules in Nigeria to those in e.g. the US or Germany is inane and makes no sense what so ever.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: FlyingLaw1, StarAC17, WildcatYXU and 19 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos