seb146
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:17 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Two questions:

1: When have Democrats ever put party ahead of country to the point they will ignore (and some encourage) another country to interfere with our elections? Another great example would be ACA. Even though no Republicans voted for it, Democrats still worked with them and talked with them to get something done. As bad as it was, they worked across the aisle. Nominating Supreme Court justices is another good example. Remember when there were only eight? Why?


Oh, this is golden. When? 2016!!!


Oh, that's right.... We are all supposed to vote only Republican.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:50 am

Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-g7-su ... T?rpc=401&

"Merkel - EU will act against U.S. tariffs on steel, aluminium"

Like Canada, the European Union is preparing counter-measures against U.S. tariffs on steel and aluminium imports, in line with World Trade Organisation rules, Merkel said.

“So we won’t let ourselves be ripped off again and again. Instead, we act then too,” Merkel said in an unusually combative tone.
 
apodino
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:57 am

While a number of good things have happened since Trump was elected, I am just about sick of Trump and my decision not to vote for him is looking more and more like the right one. The tweets are out of control. The handling of the Philadelphia Eagles situation was disgusting. If you have any disagreement at all you are insulted, bullied, etc. There is far too much of this going on in society today, with lots of hate out there on both sides. Love is lacking on both sides, and it makes me sick. We have no respect at all for those we disagree with. If you don't share a viewpoint with someone else, you are insulted. Dialogue is impossible, a divided society is what we have. And when you couple that with the mental health crisis in this country that no one deals with, you end up with Mass Shootings, high suicide rates, and a bunch of very depressed people. Much of this happened way before Trump, and in some ways was responsible for electing Trump, but Trump has made it much worse. And all I see is negativity when there are a lot of good things actually happening.

I don't know what happened specifically with Trudeau, and I am not a fan of Trudeau at all. But...to air dirty laundry in public like this embarrasses me as an American. I think we could have gotten something that is mutually beneficial for both our countries, especially with Trudeau possibly weakened politically after the Liberals were routed in the ON provincial Elections last week.

The Sad thing is that there was Russian interference in the Elecction. That seems obvious. The investigation has become so politicized though that I don't think the truth will ever really be known. I feel Putin was playing both sides though. Hillary is not clean in this at all. I am eager to hear the IG report coming out this week. I suspect both sides will spin it in their favor.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:21 am

Look, I get what Trump supporters think he is, but I don't understand how they don't realize they've swallowed a giant lie. It makes discussion impossible when people don't even know the same "facts".
 
Derico
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:41 am

Bacuase Trump is such a distasteful figure, it is very difficult to give him any point. But he is right in the fact the EU and Asian countries are not exactly lacking in hypocrisy when they dump massive subsidies and have uses "health" provision in the past to block imports, when eveyone knows those health reasons are cheap excuses.

If Trump is serious about 0 tariffs, and he is most certainly not, then it would also include ending all subsidies for US farming, all of them.

And another point no one seems to mention, if 0 tariffs and subsidies are the supposed goal, then the other countries should demand and draft a change in the reserve currency. The dollar should no longer be used, this give a bureaucracy advantage to the US, so their products are de facto cheaper. But it also gives the US a free ride on printing cash and flooding the world with it. If there is to be fair trade, all countries should transact trade in their own currency (unviable), or have a world currency that is not country specific nor controlled only by one central bank. That is an unfair trade advantage in itself.
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aviationaware
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:42 am

jordanh wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well the news were predictable. In real news, the US has fewer tariffs than the other G7 countries.


Actually, this is simply not true. Here are the average tariffs of each of the G7 countries (per the World Bank):

USA 1.6%

UK 1.6%

Japan 1.4%

Italy 1.6%

Germany 1.6%

France 1.6%

Canada 0.8%



Those numbers lie, particularly the numbers for the European countries. They include all the tariff free trade within the EU, which of course means that trade with non-EU countries has much much higher tariffs. For some reason, the EU wants to be a common market yet still counts their internal trade as exports. Doesn't make any sense, but then again what EU policy has ever made sense.
 
Freakysh
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 am

steveinbc wrote:
The simple truth is that many of the G7 have relied upon the USA for decades to drive the world economy. For the USA to continue to spend while they've chosen austerity. To rely upon the USA for defence. So Trump's claim that the USA is their piggy bank and they're all putting their hands into it is quite true.
Whether you like him or not, Trump is trying to shake things up and the only way to burst through the thick skins of politicians is to stamp your feet and speak in forceful terms. You can bet they will also vent publicly then change their strategies when they're back home.
As for Trudeau most of us in western Canada also see him as weak and dishonest.....so no arguments there!!


Trudeau has always come across as a weasel.
 
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seahawk
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:57 am

Trump telling the truth to the public: That is so awesome.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/10/trump-f ... rocal.html

America first.
 
Freakysh
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:19 am

apodino wrote:
There is far too much of this going on in society today, with lots of hate out there on both sides. Love is lacking on both sides, and it makes me sick. We have no respect at all for those we disagree with. If you don't share a viewpoint with someone else, you are insulted.


This isn't a surprise. I've been saying it all along, politicians, on both sides, are deplorable humans. You don't get to that level of politics by being a nice person. Some are good at hiding it and putting on a good act. Some are not so good at it. End of the day, they are there to line their own pockets and that of their corporate friends. It bemuses me to see someone staunchly defend democrats or Republicans as if in some way one is good and the other bad. Step back and you'll see they are both sick and rotten and don't give a fark about common Joe.

I like Trump because he doesn't play by the rules.

These elites have their "protocols" on how to work together corruptly. Trump comes in like a bull in a China shop and that makes them mad. I love it! Trump is a dick, but so are the others in politics. At least now it's more entertaining, may as well enjoy it if you can't change it.

The overall corruption machine isn't going to be destroyed by one man. Once Trump's out of the picture, we can resume being fleeced by "nice" politicians we can all look up to.
 
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seahawk
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:26 am

Trump is out to dismantle the deep state. He will bring a new America, with a new leadership system that will wash away the dirt.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:36 am

seahawk wrote:
Trump is out to dismantle the deep state. He will bring a new America, with a new leadership system that will wash away the dirt.


lol, he is dirt, his whole life he has been dirt. Come on, you are German, don't believe in those conspiracy theories.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Francoflier
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:57 am

apodino wrote:
The Sad thing is that there was Russian interference in the Elecction. That seems obvious. The investigation has become so politicized though that I don't think the truth will ever really be known. I feel Putin was playing both sides though. Hillary is not clean in this at all. I am eager to hear the IG report coming out this week. I suspect both sides will spin it in their favor.


If you take a step back and look at the broader emerging pattern of Russian meddling with Western democracy, which becomes clearer by the day as various investigations move forward, what Putin is trying to do is actually pretty evident.

He has been helping parties and political movements which all have one thing in common: they seek to disrupt the established Western coalition and its values. He hates the EU, NATO and the legacy of American values that the US tries to project across the World.
He has helped the Brexit campaign, almost every far-right/nationalistic/separatist movement in the EU, especially those who want out of the EU and threaten to break it down, and, of course, he has helped Trump, whom he intelligently saw as the enraged bull set that he wanted let loose in the china shop that is the delicate balance of trade, prosperity, power and peace effort that the aforementioned coalition represents and which stands in his way.

All roads seem to lead to the Vlad, and the picture is clearer by the day, apart to those blinded by political fanaticism.
In this light, Trump trying to push for Russia to join the G7 again while methodically destroying the historic alliance between Western developed nations should ring all kinds of very loud alarm bells to anyone who understands what's going on there...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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seahawk
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:59 am

The only thing connecting Trump and Putin is that they are hated by the liberals and the EU communists. But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.
 
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seahawk
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.


Lol, based on what evidence?


He is starting to fight the trade deficit, putting them under political pressure, forming alliances to contain them and is supporting political factions in Europe that openly oppose the EU.
Last edited by seahawk on Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:06 am

At this rate, Trump is scaring the EU into solidification.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:07 am

seahawk wrote:
But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.


Lol, based on what evidence?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:17 am

seahawk wrote:
The only thing connecting Trump and Putin is that they are hated by the liberals and the EU communists. But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.

Do you actually read what you write? Reagan is rolling in his grave from the mere sight of Trump giving head to a KGB thug at any given opportunity.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:59 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The only thing connecting Trump and Putin is that they are hated by the liberals and the EU communists. But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.

Do you actually read what you write? Reagan is rolling in his grave from the mere sight of Trump giving head to a KGB thug at any given opportunity.


Seahawk is a troll who only lurks around these threads to start fires...

If memory serves, he is actually German.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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seahawk
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:29 am

Francoflier wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The only thing connecting Trump and Putin is that they are hated by the liberals and the EU communists. But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.

Do you actually read what you write? Reagan is rolling in his grave from the mere sight of Trump giving head to a KGB thug at any given opportunity.


Seahawk is a troll who only lurks around these threads to start fires...

If memory serves, he is actually German.


That is how Trump sells it and nothing I wrote is not true.

- starting a trade war with the EU and other Western allies - check
- putting political pressure on those countries - check
- forming alliances against those countries - aka working with Russia - check
- supporting anti-EU parties in the EU - also check

It is also interesting to see how much support he gets in the USA, as it tells a lot about the actual worth of the partnership with the USA. The world will never be the same after him, as so much trust has already been destroyed. And it takes much longer to rebuild that, then it takes to destroy it.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:25 am

Francoflier wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The only thing connecting Trump and Putin is that they are hated by the liberals and the EU communists. But Trump will dismantle the EU, just like Reagan did with the Soviet Union.

Do you actually read what you write? Reagan is rolling in his grave from the mere sight of Trump giving head to a KGB thug at any given opportunity.


Seahawk is a troll who only lurks around these threads to start fires...

If memory serves, he is actually German.


Trump is German too, can we just deport his whole extended family to Germany?

That is, by the logic of trump supporters. I had one tell me that slaves didn't come here as citizens, thus black people should be sent back to africa, that they were here illegally. He didn't care that being born on us soil makes you a us citizen. He later told me he was part Cape Verdean in descent (but he assured me he was all Portuguese and not african!) and I quipped that he should be sent back to Africa too.
 
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keesje
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:27 am

Who are advising Trump I was asking myself. Then I saw this picture.

Neocon John Bolton got in somehow (2). That means common sense took a hit.

Image

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/john-bolton-iran-nuclear-trump-iraq-war-north-korea/556763/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tommy1808
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:07 am

keesje wrote:
Who are advising Trump I was asking myself. Then I saw this picture.


Doesn´t matter, Trump is even to mentally challenged to understand a simple "Archiving all your paperwork is the law, so don´t destroy your paper work".

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/ ... tem-635164

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:14 pm

keesje wrote:
Who are advising Trump I was asking myself. Then I saw this picture.

Neocon John Bolton got in somehow (2). That means common sense took a hit.

Image

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/john-bolton-iran-nuclear-trump-iraq-war-north-korea/556763/


Trump wants Mc Donalds take out and others want to go to a fine dine-in restaurant.
 
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Tugger
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:13 pm

Whats funny (or sad) is he looks exactly like who he is: A petulant child
Image

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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scbriml
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
Whats funny (or sad) is he looks exactly like who he is: A petulant child

Tugg


Indeed. The body language alone is shocking for the alleged leader of the free World. Then add in the usual Twitter tirade and you have a stroppy teenage in the body of an old man, pretending to be the President of the USA. :shock:
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JJJ
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:41 pm

aviationaware wrote:
jordanh wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well the news were predictable. In real news, the US has fewer tariffs than the other G7 countries.


Actually, this is simply not true. Here are the average tariffs of each of the G7 countries (per the World Bank):

USA 1.6%

UK 1.6%

Japan 1.4%

Italy 1.6%

Germany 1.6%

France 1.6%

Canada 0.8%



Those numbers lie, particularly the numbers for the European countries. They include all the tariff free trade within the EU, which of course means that trade with non-EU countries has much much higher tariffs. For some reason, the EU wants to be a common market yet still counts their internal trade as exports. Doesn't make any sense, but then again what EU policy has ever made sense.


Would you deduct EU-Canada trade now because of CETA? Or US-Mexico because of NAFTA?

Trade is trade. The US so far has walked out of TTP and TTIP which would have brought respective tariffs to near-zero because they want to "win" not a free trade deal. Go make one with North Korea and Russia since Trump seems to be so fond of them.
 
aviationaware
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:49 pm

JJJ wrote:
The US so far has walked out of TTP and TTIP which would have brought respective tariffs to near-zero because they want to "win" not a free trade deal.


No, the US has walked away from those deals because they want a fair deal. A deal which does not include conditions in which manufacturers are rewarded for moving plants overseas. Both TTP and TTIP would have included those conditions and hence were not tolerable.
Meanwhile, individual agreements between the would-be participants of the TPP are now on their way in, in each case benefiting both parties. The fact that the EU only negotiates trade deals as one entity is a huge competitive disadvantage that will come back to bite them.
 
afcjets
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:12 pm

I apologize in advance if this has already been posted as I don't have time to look right now, did it ever occur to any of you Trump-haters (which is usually more than 90% of you on here) that perhaps Trump is intentionally being difficult with our allies to send a message to little rocket man he better not blow it this week. This is how Trump negotiates anyway, if he can go from saying he won't hesitate to blow North Korea off the map to meeting with him, I doubt how he acts at G7 with our allies means we are going to have an immediate and permanent trade war with our allies.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:23 pm

afcjets wrote:
I apologize in advance if this has already been posted as I don't have time to look right now, did it ever occur to any of you Trump-haters (which is usually more than 90% of you on here) that perhaps Trump is intentionally being difficult with our allies to send a message to little rocket man he better not blow it this week. This is how Trump negotiates anyway, if he can go from saying he won't hesitate to blow North Korea off the map to meeting with him, I doubt how he acts at G7 with our allies means we are going to have an immediate and permanent trade war with our allies.


He'd probably give North Korea the moon if they agreed to throw a military parade in his honor.

Considering the response from our allies, including the fact that the "petulant child" picture was released by the German government itself, regardless of his intentions he's left our allies extremely unimpressed. Unlike North korea, they are in a position that commands far more respect.
 
tommy1808
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:29 pm

JJJ wrote:
Trade is trade. The US so far has walked out of TTP and TTIP which would have brought respective tariffs to near-zero because they want to "win" not a free trade deal.


:checkmark:
Trump is practically the reason why there are no free trade agreements with the countries slapped with tariffs.
The best deals he may be able to get are deals like the ones he has cancelled. But Fox News sure as hell is not going to tell their viewers that.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:29 pm

JJJ wrote:
Trade is trade. The US so far has walked out of TTP and TTIP which would have brought respective tariffs to near-zero because they want to "win" not a free trade deal.


:checkmark:
Trump is practically the reason why there are no free trade agreements with the countries slapped with tariffs.
The best deals he may be able to get are deals like the ones he has cancelled. But Fox News sure as hell is not going to tell their viewers that.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
ElPistolero
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:35 pm

aviationaware wrote:
No, the US has walked away from those deals because they want a fair deal. A deal which does not include conditions in which manufacturers are rewarded for moving plants overseas. Both TTP and TTIP would have included those conditions and hence were not tolerable.
Meanwhile, individual agreements between the would-be participants of the TPP are now on their way in, in each case benefiting both parties. The fact that the EU only negotiates trade deals as one entity is a huge competitive disadvantage that will come back to bite them.


In your mind, what is the point of trade? Is it to benefit from comparative advantages (e.g. highly skilled labour, cheap labour, economies of scale etc)? Or is it only acceptable where comparative advantages are reduced to nought? That is to say, trade is only fair if Apple produces iPhones in countries where it would cost the same to produce an iPhone as it does in the US? If the latter, what is the point of trade at all? Both those countries should just produce their own versions of iPhones and shut down trade completely to benefit from saving shipping costs. So...what is it?

As an aside, there is only one "would be" participant to the TTP: the US. The rest of the participants have joined that agreement. It's a thing; it exists without the US. Those countries will trade among each other under TTP terms regardless.

As for the EU, I wouldn't worry too much. With the Japan agreement moving along, it will have at least FTAs with 6 of the G7 participating.
 
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:35 pm

afcjets wrote:
I apologize in advance if this has already been posted as I don't have time to look right now, did it ever occur to any of you Trump-haters (which is usually more than 90% of you on here) that perhaps Trump is intentionally being difficult with our allies to send a message to little rocket man he better not blow it this week. This is how Trump negotiates anyway, if he can go from saying he won't hesitate to blow North Korea off the map to meeting with him, I doubt how he acts at G7 with our allies means we are going to have an immediate and permanent trade war with our allies.

The only message he is sending to Un is that he is not to be trusted with sit down discussions. That he is as likely to turn on you at a whim whether he said "I like you" or "I agree" or not.

I am not positive it will happen but think it is very likely one of them will come out and dump on the other, insulting them and calling them out. The question is who will be first.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ElPistolero
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:40 pm

afcjets wrote:
I apologize in advance if this has already been posted as I don't have time to look right now, did it ever occur to any of you Trump-haters (which is usually more than 90% of you on here) that perhaps Trump is intentionally being difficult with our allies to send a message to little rocket man he better not blow it this week. This is how Trump negotiates anyway, if he can go from saying he won't hesitate to blow North Korea off the map to meeting with him, I doubt how he acts at G7 with our allies means we are going to have an immediate and permanent trade war with our allies.


What message would that be?

That alienating Allies is a sign of strength?

That Allies are questioning what they should and should not trust?

I'm missing the logic. I'm sure you'll explain it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:41 pm

So Trump wants to appear strong before meeting Kim. In what way does his childish reaction towards Trudeau make him appear strong ?

"He started it ! bouh ouh ouh ! Bad Justin, bad !"

Yep, definitely the mark of a strong man.
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JJJ
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:51 pm

aviationaware wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The US so far has walked out of TTP and TTIP which would have brought respective tariffs to near-zero because they want to "win" not a free trade deal.


No, the US has walked away from those deals because they want a fair deal. A deal which does not include conditions in which manufacturers are rewarded for moving plants overseas. Both TTP and TTIP would have included those conditions and hence were not tolerable.


Care to ellaborate? And, please, no BS about Romanian salaries this time around.
 
jordanh
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Trump is out to dismantle the deep state. He will bring a new America, with a new leadership system that will wash away the dirt.

lol, he is dirt, his whole life he has been dirt. Come on, you are German, don't believe in those conspiracy theories.


Germans seem especially prone to believe in conspiracy theories; that's how they got that guy with the funny little moustache a few decades ago... :roll:
 
tommy1808
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:56 pm

Tugger wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I apologize in advance if this has already been posted as I don't have time to look right now, did it ever occur to any of you Trump-haters (which is usually more than 90% of you on here) that perhaps Trump is intentionally being difficult with our allies to send a message to little rocket man he better not blow it this week. This is how Trump negotiates anyway, if he can go from saying he won't hesitate to blow North Korea off the map to meeting with him, I doubt how he acts at G7 with our allies means we are going to have an immediate and permanent trade war with our allies.

The only message he is sending to Un is that he is not to be trusted with sit down discussions.


Well, the withdrawl drin the Iran deal probably send him the much stronger message that Trump doesn't even care about ink on paper very much.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kims opening position will be "I give up my nukes if you give up yours", and the meeting is over after 30 seconds.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2005
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:57 pm

JJJ wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The US so far has walked out of TTP and TTIP which would have brought respective tariffs to near-zero because they want to "win" not a free trade deal.


No, the US has walked away from those deals because they want a fair deal. A deal which does not include conditions in which manufacturers are rewarded for moving plants overseas. Both TTP and TTIP would have included those conditions and hence were not tolerable.


Care to ellaborate? And, please, no BS about Romanian salaries this time around.


That's not bullshit, that's economics. If you don't understand how they work, go grab a book. Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt is a good way to start educating yourself.

ElPistolero wrote:

In your mind, what is the point of trade? Is it to benefit from comparative advantages (e.g. highly skilled labour, cheap labour, economies of scale etc)? Or is it only acceptable where comparative advantages are reduced to nought? That is to say, trade is only fair if Apple produces iPhones in countries where it would cost the same to produce an iPhone as it does in the US? If the latter, what is the point of trade at all? Both those countries should just produce their own versions of iPhones and shut down trade completely to benefit from saving shipping costs. So...what is it?


From the point of view of an individual company, of course this all works out. That's why the owners of the large corporations, aka the 1%, have reaped more than the net benefit of globalization. From a nation's point of view, it's a failure, because people's living conditions worsen. Globalization, as in free trade with poorer countries, is they key driver in income and wealth inequality. Completely free trade only makes sense among nations with comparable levels of prosperity.
Trading between Japan and the US or Germany and the US, all tariffs are a waste and holding back everyone involved. Trading between China and the US, tariffs can make the difference between huge numbers of people in America being able to take care of their families. Yes, there will be a net benefit to the US GDP. But if it's only the rich benefiting from it, what good is that to most Americans?

Globalization is a one way street putting money from poor and middle class peoples' pockets into rich peoples' pockets. The left, meanwhile, has no other cure than taxing the rich for the benefit they are reaping and re-distributing it via government handouts. What a ridiculous cycle. People want to live off their hands' work, not off government handouts.

ElPistolero wrote:
As an aside, there is only one "would be" participant to the TTP: the US. The rest of the participants have joined that agreement. It's a thing; it exists without the US. Those countries will trade among each other under TTP terms regardless.


Wonderful, and the people of Japan will probably pay a price for that decision.
Last edited by aviationaware on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Kims opening position will be "I give up my nukes if you give up yours", and the meeting is over after 30 seconds.

Oh, I don't know, I wouldn't put it past Trump to say "OK sure, we'll do that. First we'll let you know where all our stuff is and you let us know where your is, then we'll set up to destroy them..."

Trump won't care if he breaks his word no matter what he promises or says to Un.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
jordanh
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:05 pm

aviationaware wrote:
jordanh wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well the news were predictable. In real news, the US has fewer tariffs than the other G7 countries.

Actually, this is simply not true. Here are the average tariffs of each of the G7 countries (per the World Bank):
USA 1.6%
UK 1.6%
Japan 1.4%
Italy 1.6%
Germany 1.6%
France 1.6%
Canada 0.8%

Those numbers lie, particularly the numbers for the European countries. They include all the tariff free trade within the EU, which of course means that trade with non-EU countries has much much higher tariffs. For some reason, the EU wants to be a common market yet still counts their internal trade as exports. Doesn't make any sense, but then again what EU policy has ever made sense.

The "numbers" are not the lying party here; you are. These are the tariffs imposed on items where tariffs are imposed... and the USA sits among the top. Canada is by far the lowest.

Maybe you should be studying "Economics 101"...
Last edited by jordanh on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2944
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:25 pm

aviationaware wrote:
JJJ wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

No, the US has walked away from those deals because they want a fair deal. A deal which does not include conditions in which manufacturers are rewarded for moving plants overseas. Both TTP and TTIP would have included those conditions and hence were not tolerable.


Care to ellaborate? And, please, no BS about Romanian salaries this time around.


That's not bullshit, that's economics. If you don't understand how they work, go grab a book. Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt is a good way to start educating yourself.


I studied enough economics at university thank you very much. It's quite telling about yout own background on economics (or lack thereof) that you bring up Hazzlit on a discussion on tariffs. In his famous example of the sweater industry:

The overwhelming majority of the people, therefore, would probably suffer from the illusion that the new industry had cost us nothing.


You, sir, are under that illusion. Which brings us to the following conclusion:

It is not merely that all its visible gains are offset by less obvious but no less real losses. It results, in fact, in a net loss to the country. For contrary to centuries of interested propaganda and disinterested confusion, the tariff reduces the American level of wages.


But this, as most things Hazzlit dealt with, an oversimplification. Worse, an interested oversimplification most economists do when putting belief before data. But such is our so-called science.

So, back to the Romanian example: TTIP while quite comprehensive is not close to the customs and labour union the EU works in. Would you enlighten us on why haven't all the German factories gone to Romania? And since we are at it, why does Romania run a trade deficit with Germany on an environment of free labour movement and zero tariffs?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:27 pm

jordanh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Trump is out to dismantle the deep state. He will bring a new America, with a new leadership system that will wash away the dirt.

lol, he is dirt, his whole life he has been dirt. Come on, you are German, don't believe in those conspiracy theories.


Germans seem especially prone to believe in conspiracy theories; that's how they got that guy with the funny little moustache a few decades ago... :roll:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
Posts: 7154
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
jordanh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
lol, he is dirt, his whole life he has been dirt. Come on, you are German, don't believe in those conspiracy theories.


Germans seem especially prone to believe in conspiracy theories; that's how they got that guy with the funny little moustache a few decades ago... :roll:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0


I think Trump would probably like him. Great guy, sense of humour, what the liberals from France and Britain did to him #sad.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:51 pm

Tugger wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I apologize in advance if this has already been posted as I don't have time to look right now, did it ever occur to any of you Trump-haters (which is usually more than 90% of you on here) that perhaps Trump is intentionally being difficult with our allies to send a message to little rocket man he better not blow it this week. This is how Trump negotiates anyway, if he can go from saying he won't hesitate to blow North Korea off the map to meeting with him, I doubt how he acts at G7 with our allies means we are going to have an immediate and permanent trade war with our allies.

The only message he is sending to Un is that he is not to be trusted with sit down discussions. That he is as likely to turn on you at a whim whether he said "I like you" or "I agree" or not.

I am not positive it will happen but think it is very likely one of them will come out and dump on the other, insulting them and calling them out. The question is who will be first.

Tugg


Trump. Kim did an amazing job. The worlds likes him more than the President of the USA. Don't know how he did that? A repressive dictator whom is slowly killing his nation got somehow more sympathy than what use to be the leader of the free world. Amazing job Trump, #sad but amazing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
afcjets
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Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
So Trump wants to appear strong before meeting Kim. In what way does his reaction towards Trudeau make him appear strong ?



If things don't go our way, we're done here. If we aren't going to continue to be taken advantage of by one of our closest allies and not care what the rest of the world thinks, we're certainly not going to put up with any antics from a thug like you. Little rocket man may think he has the upper hand because he got a high profile meeting he doesn't deserve and probably never thought he would get.
Last edited by afcjets on Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bhill
Posts: 1541
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
Trump is out to dismantle the deep state. He will bring a new America, with a new leadership system that will wash away the dirt.



Going to be difficult to do that from prison. In my lifetime, I have not seen so many in any of the US Presidential Administration either going to joil indicted or under investigation.
Carpe Pices
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1596
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:23 pm

aviationaware wrote:
JJJ wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

No, the US has walked away from those deals because they want a fair deal. A deal which does not include conditions in which manufacturers are rewarded for moving plants overseas. Both TTP and TTIP would have included those conditions and hence were not tolerable.


Care to ellaborate? And, please, no BS about Romanian salaries this time around.


That's not bullshit, that's economics. If you don't understand how they work, go grab a book. Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt is a good way to start educating yourself.

ElPistolero wrote:

In your mind, what is the point of trade? Is it to benefit from comparative advantages (e.g. highly skilled labour, cheap labour, economies of scale etc)? Or is it only acceptable where comparative advantages are reduced to nought? That is to say, trade is only fair if Apple produces iPhones in countries where it would cost the same to produce an iPhone as it does in the US? If the latter, what is the point of trade at all? Both those countries should just produce their own versions of iPhones and shut down trade completely to benefit from saving shipping costs. So...what is it?


From the point of view of an individual company, of course this all works out. That's why the owners of the large corporations, aka the 1%, have reaped more than the net benefit of globalization. From a nation's point of view, it's a failure, because people's living conditions worsen. Globalization, as in free trade with poorer countries, is they key driver in income and wealth inequality. Completely free trade only makes sense among nations with comparable levels of prosperity.
Trading between Japan and the US or Germany and the US, all tariffs are a waste and holding back everyone involved. Trading between China and the US, tariffs can make the difference between huge numbers of people in America being able to take care of their families. Yes, there will be a net benefit to the US GDP. But if it's only the rich benefiting from it, what good is that to most Americans?

Globalization is a one way street putting money from poor and middle class peoples' pockets into rich peoples' pockets. The left, meanwhile, has no other cure than taxing the rich for the benefit they are reaping and re-distributing it via government handouts. What a ridiculous cycle. People want to live off their hands' work, not off government handouts.

ElPistolero wrote:
As an aside, there is only one "would be" participant to the TTP: the US. The rest of the participants have joined that agreement. It's a thing; it exists without the US. Those countries will trade among each other under TTP terms regardless.


Wonderful, and the people of Japan will probably pay a price for that decision.


Ah I thought the arguments sounded familiar. Breitbart economics in the house, haha.

I'll just point out the obvious:

- 70 years ago, Japan and Germany were not at US levels of prosperity. Your brand of economics would have imposed tariffs on them at the time. I think every Japanese and German should thank thier lucky stars your co-ideologues didn't prevail at the time.

- Japan has had EPAs/FTAs with various relatively poorer countries since the mid-2000s. These include Mongolia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, India and Mexico among others. What price have they paid for those? What additional price will TPP impose?

- There are 20 million Romanians in the EU. TTIP would benefit 900 million people. Seems odd that anyone would pass up access to a market of 500 million people becaus of 20 million people.
 
seb146
Posts: 17555
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:32 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So Trump wants to appear strong before meeting Kim. In what way does his reaction towards Trudeau make him appear strong ?



If things don't go our way, we're done here. If we aren't going to continue to be taken advantage of by one of our closest allies and not care what the rest of the world thinks, we're certainly not going to put up with any antics from a thug like you. Little rocket man may think he has the upper hand because he got a high profile meeting he doesn't deserve and probably never thought he would get.


TRump announced all these tariff hikes and backing out of treaties and international accords and such and he gets all mad and whiny when other countries do not just lay down and take it. Telling Canada there will be increases in tariffs, what kind of response would you expect from Trudeau? He is looking out for the best interest of the Dominion, not the United States.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
afcjets
Posts: 2113
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: G7 summit ends in disarray as Trump abandons joint statement

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:12 pm

seb146 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So Trump wants to appear strong before meeting Kim. In what way does his reaction towards Trudeau make him appear strong ?



If things don't go our way, we're done here. If we aren't going to continue to be taken advantage of by one of our closest allies and not care what the rest of the world thinks, we're certainly not going to put up with any antics from a thug like you. Little rocket man may think he has the upper hand because he got a high profile meeting he doesn't deserve and probably never thought he would get.


Trump announced all these tariff hikes and backing out of treaties and international accords and such and he gets all mad and whiny when other countries do not just lay down and take it. Telling Canada there will be increases in tariffs, what kind of response would you expect from Trudeau? He is looking out for the best interest of the Dominion, not the United States.


Honestly I am not following the story so I don't know exactly what his response was, but I would expect him to respond negatively as Trump probably did too and wanted him to take the bait which he of course did.

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