tommy1808 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them.

I do wonder if that nonsense "argument" goes away when Islam has overtaken Christianity. I find it also quite hilarious that those arguments always count all people confessing to being Christans, even when some of those sects are mutually exclusive when it comes to recognizing each other at Christians in the first place...

Surely, it would not go away. Truth is not determined by consensus. Don't forget how the "scientific consensus" was once that the earth was flat, and that the sun & planets revolved around the earth, which was summarily disproven by the Christian (albeit Catholic) theologian & polymath Copernicus. (Fyi, Kepler & Galileo were also Christian theists, and the Big Bang Theory was devised by Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest).

tommy1808 wrote:

dik909 wrote:

Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:

BN747 wrote:

No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it.

It is worth the 30 seconds until it falls apart. People only see demons during sleep paralysis if they believe demons are real, if they don't, they see other stuff.
So, if you want to stop demons showing up at your bed, become an atheist or join a religion without demons.... problem solved.

Best regards
Thomas

As one who has extensively studied summoning, mediumship, possession, & demonology, your words are simply laughable, and again betray the fact that you are speaking on things which you know nothing about. Further, if you had an attention span beyond 30 seconds, you would hear from even non-Christians who have testified that when they exercised the authority found in the name of Jesus, the sleep paralyses disappeared.

DigitalSea wrote:

Do I personally believe intelligent life exists outside of our solar system? Yes.

When it comes to contemplating other worldly life and the universe, I like to think about the following:

How do you universally define intelligent life?
.....

does it require to recognize each other (intelligence and/or sentience) ?

Stanislav Lem had delved into this quite a bit in his SF works ( the "not" case, actually ) .

on other life in general:
The universe hasn't shown us anything that is a unicate.

dik909 wrote:

Surely, it would not go away. Truth is not determined by consensus.

Of course truth is not defined by consensus.

Don't forget how the "scientific consensus" was once that the earth was flat, and that the sun & planets revolved around the earth, which was summarily disproven by the Christian (albeit Catholic) theologian & polymath Copernicus. (Fyi, Kepler & Galileo were also Christian theists, and the Big Bang Theory was devised by Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest).

There never was scientific consensus that earth is flat, there simply wasn´t any science done for a long time after the rise of Christianity and Islam, people that did science before Christianity was invented where well aware of the earth not being flat, had a fairly accurate idea how large it was, how far the moon is away and how large that is and had figured out that the earth moves around the sun.
Of course science had to rediscover all that once they felt they could do so without being burned alive by those less science loving Christians, that burned people for stating that the Bibles claim of earth being flat not being true.
Religion and Science isn´t a contradiction, as long you adjust your religion to what we know about reality. Which actually is what believing scientists do, those few that there are, so called "sophisticated believers do" and the Catholic Church has been fairly flexible when it comes to that, that why they are still around.

you would hear from even non-Christians who have testified that when they exercised the authority found in the name of Jesus, the sleep paralyses disappeared.

Got a double blind study regarding the issue? No? Well, i guess they know why they don´t do any of those. Should be easy enough to set up in a sleep lab.

I wonder why all that magic, that is "attested" so many times, is never successfully put to the test. This is again something where scientific evidence would be easy to come by if it was true, and unless they bring that to the table, i may very well pray that the tea cattle orbiting Jupiter doesn´t suddenly.

So, that is not evidence, neither by your definition, nor by mine. The simple fact that sleep paralysis usually happens in episodes and one can just accidentally stop after treatment comes on top of that. Which methods have been employed to filter our noise and other possible causes? Did those people have exactly the same levels of stress of stress and physical fatigue before, during and after the "study", was there a control group, did eating, drinking, drug abuse and such behavior remain constant during the "study"?

best regards
Thomas

dik909 wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them.

I do wonder if that nonsense "argument" goes away when Islam has overtaken Christianity. I find it also quite hilarious that those arguments always count all people confessing to being Christans, even when some of those sects are mutually exclusive when it comes to recognizing each other at Christians in the first place...

Surely, it would not go away. Truth is not determined by consensus. Don't forget how the "scientific consensus" was once that the earth was flat, and that the sun & planets revolved around the earth, which was summarily disproven by the Christian (albeit Catholic) theologian & polymath Copernicus. (Fyi, Kepler & Galileo were also Christian theists, and the Big Bang Theory was devised by Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest).

Ummm yeah, as we move forward in time more and more 'thoughts/rules' predicated on ignorance does 'go away'...but without a fight no less.
Copernicus was a church deacon, collecting rents from people residing on patches land owned by the Church. He had no choice but remain in the church line up to pursue his affinity of 'the world' beyond the limited earthy knowledge of his day. And before that time and beyond, The Church lorded places of philosophy, mathematics and basically all things that were the source of knowledge. So Copernicus, were he alive today, would have nothing to do with church. neither would Kepler, Galileo, Kepler and Lemaitre. Lemaitre is also on record warning the Pope, NOT to use his findings (which were pretty ballsy at the time - more guts than Einstein - who did not want to offend religious sensitivities at the time) Lemaitre told the Pope (in so many words) Do not use his findings make claims of divine discovery'...divinity had nothing to do with it. I'm glad Lemaitre lived to see his claims vidicated and embraced by the majority of the scientific community. Were Lemaitre alive today, no doubt he too, would have left the Church. More and more 'holy men' are starting to come around and realize they are peddling Grade A horsehit. ABC News did a great piece awhile ago in priests (making their faces & voices) of how they have nowhere else to go, they admitted to not being employable elsewhere and thus needed the church to sustain themselves and their families (ala Copernicus and the life).

So, sorry the Church gets no credit for advancing technological innovations of cosmic thought. It gets credit for providing a fully belly, decent bedding and that's it. Same as Slavery, well actually many Churches were instrumental in aiding the fight against slavery in the face of many churches (largely in the South) advocating scripture that supports it.

tommy1808 wrote:

dik909 wrote:

Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:

BN747 wrote:

No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it.

It is worth the 30 seconds until it falls apart. People only see demons during sleep paralysis if they believe demons are real, if they don't, they see other stuff.
So, if you want to stop demons showing up at your bed, become an atheist or join a religion without demons.... problem solved.

Best regards
Thomas

[/quote]

Exactly Thomas, 'when it starts to fall apart....and bogus BS always does. Th encouraging increasing of openly admitted atheism is very encouraging.
Another one, MAGA, which really means = MAWA (Make America White Again... which is just fraudulent as any religion and it too will 'fall apart' because it is also based on a false premise.

MAGA also mean...Mueller Ain't Going Away

BN747

tommy1808 wrote:

dik909 wrote:

Surely, it would not go away. Truth is not determined by consensus.

Of course truth is not defined by consensus.

Don't forget how the "scientific consensus" was once that the earth was flat, and that the sun & planets revolved around the earth, which was summarily disproven by the Christian (albeit Catholic) theologian & polymath Copernicus. (Fyi, Kepler & Galileo were also Christian theists, and the Big Bang Theory was devised by Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest).

There never was scientific consensus that earth is flat, there simply wasn´t any science done for a long time after the rise of Christianity and Islam, people that did science before Christianity was invented where well aware of the earth not being flat, had a fairly accurate idea how large it was, how far the moon is away and how large that is and had figured out that the earth moves around the sun.
Of course science had to rediscover all that once they felt they could do so without being burned alive by those less science loving Christians, that burned people for stating that the Bibles claim of earth being flat not being true.
Religion and Science isn´t a contradiction, as long you adjust your religion to what we know about reality. Which actually is what believing scientists do, those few that there are, so called "sophisticated believers do" and the Catholic Church has been fairly flexible when it comes to that, that why they are still around.

you would hear from even non-Christians who have testified that when they exercised the authority found in the name of Jesus, the sleep paralyses disappeared.

Got a double blind study regarding the issue? No? Well, i guess they know why they don´t do any of those. Should be easy enough to set up in a sleep lab.

I wonder why all that magic, that is "attested" so many times, is never successfully put to the test. This is again something where scientific evidence would be easy to come by if it was true, and unless they bring that to the table, i may very well pray that the tea cattle orbiting Jupiter doesn´t suddenly.

So, that is not evidence, neither by your definition, nor by mine. The simple fact that sleep paralysis usually happens in episodes and one can just accidentally stop after treatment comes on top of that. Which methods have been employed to filter our noise and other possible causes? Did those people have exactly the same levels of stress of stress and physical fatigue before, during and after the "study", was there a control group, did eating, drinking, drug abuse and such behavior remain constant during the "study"?

best regards
Thomas

Pray tell, why do you think Vatican Catholic = Christian ? I think you're really missing some big pieces of the puzzle, and thereby attacking a position which I'm not defending. Strawman, what ?

BN747 wrote:

Ummm yeah, as we move forward in time more and more 'thoughts/rules' predicated on ignorance does 'go away'...but without a fight no less.
Copernicus was a church deacon, collecting rents from people residing on patches land owned by the Church. He had no choice but remain in the church line up to pursue his affinity of 'the world' beyond the limited earthy knowledge of his day. And before that time and beyond, The Church lorded places of philosophy, mathematics and basically all things that were the source of knowledge. So Copernicus, were he alive today, would have nothing to do with church. neither would Kepler, Galileo, Kepler and Lemaitre. Lemaitre is also on record warning the Pope, NOT to use his findings (which were pretty ballsy at the time - more guts than Einstein - who did not want to offend religious sensitivities at the time) Lemaitre told the Pope (in so many words) Do not use his findings make claims of divine discovery'...divinity had nothing to do with it. I'm glad Lemaitre lived to see his claims vidicated and embraced by the majority of the scientific community. Were Lemaitre alive today, no doubt he too, would have left the Church. More and more 'holy men' are starting to come around and realize they are peddling Grade A horsehit. ABC News did a great piece awhile ago in priests (making their faces & voices) of how they have nowhere else to go, they admitted to not being employable elsewhere and thus needed the church to sustain themselves and their families (ala Copernicus and the life).

So, sorry the Church gets no credit for advancing technological innovations of cosmic thought. It gets credit for providing a fully belly, decent bedding and that's it. Same as Slavery, well actually many Churches were instrumental in aiding the fight against slavery in the face of many churches (largely in the South) advocating scripture that supports it.

Can you back that up scientifically ?

tommy1808 wrote:

Another one, MAGA, which really means = MAWA (Make America White Again... which is just fraudulent as any religion and it too will 'fall apart' because it is also based on a false premise.

MAGA also mean...Mueller Ain't Going Away

BN747

Relevance ???

It's abundantly clear that you are have not exposed yourself to scholarly atheism, and are merely latching onto vitriolic pop atheism, the kind which is literally laughed out of the academy. I trust that in the end all will be made known. Good day.

dik909 wrote:

Can you back that up scientifically ?

Translated: I am left with no way to respond.

dik909 wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Another one, MAGA, which really means = MAWA (Make America White Again... which is just fraudulent as any religion and it too will 'fall apart' because it is also based on a false premise.

MAGA also mean...Mueller Ain't Going Away

BN747

Relevance ???

It's abundantly clear that you are have not exposed yourself to scholarly atheism, and are merely latching onto vitriolic pop atheism, the kind which is literally laughed out of the academy. I trust that in the end all will be made known. Good day.

You've gotten so confused, you're insulting the wrong person; BN747 wrote what you quoted Tommy as writing.

BTW
Your "scholarly atheism" accusation is absurdity at its pinnacle. You obviously want to divide "atheists" up into warring sects like your Abrahamic religions. LOL

salttee wrote:

Translated: I am left with no way to respond.

Or, perhaps I’m at work and have neither the time & patience to break down the innumerable fallacies within the aforementioned statement, and simply wanted to point out to the writer that his unending faith in empiricism prevents him from “proving” his philosophical declarations. Perhaps..

salttee wrote:

You've gotten so confused, you're insulting the wrong person; BN747 wrote what you quoted Tommy as writing.

Oof ! My mistake - thanks for pointing that out.

[quote="salttee Your "scholarly atheism" accusation is absurdity at its pinnacle. You obviously want to divide "atheists" up into warring sects like your Abrahamic religions. LOL[/quote]

Oh really ? Are you meaning to imply that “the atheistic discussion” is the same in pop media as it is in philosophical journals ?? (20:1 you don’t even know who Graham Oppy, Quentin Smith, Kai Neelson, Peter Singer, or Jerry Coyne are)

Unfortunately for you this is not a philosophical journal, this is an internet web site. You'll have to make your case all on your own without any of your vague (false) appeals to authority.

salttee wrote:

Unfortunately for you this is not a philosophical journal, this is an internet web site. You'll have to make your case all on your own without any of your vague (false) appeals to authority.

Way to continue avoiding questions, and instead respond with Red Herrings. I'm getting quite used to it.

Unfortunately for all of us, certain individuals think that it's okay to abandon honesty & intellectual humility just because we're on the internet, criticizing others' appeals to authority in one thread, while at the same time citing authorities to prove their points in other threads (inconsistency is a sign of a failed worldview).

PS - Aliens = Demons

dik909 wrote:

PS - Aliens = Demons

Demons = fictional beings
Aliens = hypothetically existing beings.

That is a huge difference.

best regards
Thomas

So a new study is estimating that there is a good chance we are the only intelligent life in the observable universe...

Guess that answers the question. End of thread.

https://qz.com/1314111/we-may-have-answ ... -universe/
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/2310 ... iverse.htm

In this present study, however, Sandberg and two other colleagues reevaluate the Fermi paradox applying the parameters of the Drake equation. For their study, they incorporated models of chemical and genetic factors as life evolves in the universe. Their new evaluation revealed a significant amount of scientific uncertainties with regard to other forms of intelligent life.

The equation used in the study, which appeared online on June 6 via Cornell University Library, is mathematically expressed as N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L.

The symbol (N) represents the number of civilizations in the galaxy that may have the capability to communicate to humans. (N) can be determined by multiplying the average rate of star formation in the galaxy which is represented by the symbol (R*). The symbol (fp) represents the fraction of those stars which have planets; (ne) represents the number of planets that can support life, (fl) the number of planets that will develop life, (fi) the number of planets that will develop intelligent life, (fc) the number of civilizations that would develop transmission technologies, and finally (L) the length of time that these civilizations would have transmitted signals into space.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

So a new study is estimating that there is a good chance we are the only intelligent life in the observable universe...

I would not say "good chance":


The 39% is for us when all uncertainties max out against the most pessimistic values, which all by itself is unlikely.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.02404.pdf makes for a good quick read though. However, the "was getting the answer wrong by more than 42 orders of magnitude" ...... seeing 42 in a scientific paper makes one always feel like it is a joke DDD

best regards
Thomas

Tugger wrote:

So a new study is estimating that there is a good chance we are the only intelligent life in the observable universe...

Guess that answers the question. End of thread.

https://qz.com/1314111/we-may-have-answ ... -universe/
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/2310 ... iverse.htm

In this present study, however, Sandberg and two other colleagues reevaluate the Fermi paradox applying the parameters of the Drake equation. For their study, they incorporated models of chemical and genetic factors as life evolves in the universe. Their new evaluation revealed a significant amount of scientific uncertainties with regard to other forms of intelligent life.

The equation used in the study, which appeared online on June 6 via Cornell University Library, is mathematically expressed as N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L.

The symbol (N) represents the number of civilizations in the galaxy that may have the capability to communicate to humans. (N) can be determined by multiplying the average rate of star formation in the galaxy which is represented by the symbol (R*). The symbol (fp) represents the fraction of those stars which have planets; (ne) represents the number of planets that can support life, (fl) the number of planets that will develop life, (fi) the number of planets that will develop intelligent life, (fc) the number of civilizations that would develop transmission technologies, and finally (L) the length of time that these civilizations would have transmitted signals into space.

Tugg

Hmmm, that’s interesting because I just read a study that said it’s likely we will discover life within 20 years. Of course that could be microbial or non complex. But the definition of intelligence isn’t easily defined. Dolphins are intelligent, so there could be high intelligence right around the corner, but since they’re under water, they’d be hard to detect. I suspect you mean something like us though. I doubt that we’re the only ones in the observable universe which is some 93 billion LY across. So none of the trillions of planets are able to harbor complex life other than our rather average planet? Bollocks. Studies show some planets my even be more hospitable than earth.

From the article...

“When they did, the researchers found that the possibility we’re alone in the galaxy is far higher than presumed given the truly gargantuan number of possible home planets. The authors assert that the chance humanity stands alone among intelligent civilizations in our galaxy is 53%–99.6%, and across the observable universe is 39%–85%.”

Given that the Fermi Paradox, is given so much weight by this Oxford U. study, I also say bullocks.

That approach birth in the 1950s pretty much is grounded in 1950s scientific thinking minus tons of since learned data about our galactic make up, just because ‘they haven’t availed themselves to us...doesn’t mean squat...I mean WTF (as WHO the Fcuk)are we to claim we must be acknowledged in order for someone else to exist. Just as explained in previous posts, we are simply drawn to the means and methods of communications that we humans have invented, aka that by no means 'all methods of communications for the Galaxy (or Universe) are defined by humans just as all methods of space travel are not refined and restricted to human definition.

I view Swedish American Physicist Max Tegmark's approach on the matter 'are we alone' which he explains his mathematical calculations/formula which says in a nutshell 'everything when drilled down comes to mathematical equations - everything (Tegmarks goes into some detail in the video link I posted above 'Infinity and Beyond'). Everything is numbers (of sorts) and in being so the arrangements of components are finite. For example, arrange so many atoms a certain way, and you get an Asian guy, another arrangement yields you an Asian girl, another...a Nordic male, another equals a Australian Aborigine and so own. We can believe that 'we humans own the knowledge to determine we know what makes up a human being and what it takes... but since we are still puzzled as to how that came about (for the non-believers of evolution out there) the formula to make humans can come in other forms. Modern Man vs Neanderthal - perhaps there is a third, a fourth version or more. Who's to say. But if you want stake the claim of 'Nope, we know it all and we are certain.... then in the face of past human fubars, the morons who proclaimed that after the Wright Bros and Santos Dumont flew 'well that's it, large heavy objects ever taking flight is pure folly'...(even the Wright Bros agreed at the time)...well now, if only the could see an A380 lift off damn near like a rocket (you've all seen the video). The point is .. when we think we know all, we are ALWAYS proven wrong, it just never ends. Our brains are capable of so, so much more. We just need to push and never stop.

The number of known components/elements (hydrogen, Nitrogen, Helium, carbon, etc) are finite as well, however, that doesn't mean ALL components are 'known'...that's where String Theory comes in and kicks things into hyper drive! The multi-dimensional limits regarding the available directions and combination of strings are unlimited and immeasurable thus far. Meaning that a litany of unknown results from various combinations exist. And somewhere in this Universe they are playing out right now and if the Multiverse theorem holds then like Graham's Number...the numbers of executions in the manner exceeds our level of comprehension and imagination. If that is the case (and all in string theory thought) then, a lot has to uncovered, discovered and 'how to approach and deploy (put to use) is akin to an Edwin Hubble sized discovery (the world learning that the Milky Way IS NOT the whole universe circa 1920s).
In the most unvarnished of terms, ...the old saying 'where there is ONE cockroach, there's bound to be millions more. And on the galactic scale, earth is merely a planet swarming with some 'bright cockroaches.'

BN747

This is going to sound like some conspiracy or science fiction drivel, but bear with me. It is slightly more interesting than your standard extraterrestrials. While I can't say that I believe in these so-called "aliens" (I haven't seen a so-called ufo or alien in real life), it is fun to hypothesize and discuss about them based on all the stories through history, and some notorious stories such as Roswell.

Lately, I've been reading about a man called Jaques Vallee. He has also given a few of those TedTalks presentations (not discussing ufos/aliens but other stuff).

His TedTalks:
"A Theory of Everything (else).": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9pR0gfil_0
"The age of impossible, anticipating discontinuous futures" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCeoNdajsTM


Here is some background info about Jaques Vallee (some snippets from Wikipedia):

Jacques Fabrice Vallée (born September 24, 1939) is a computer scientist, venture capitalist, author, ufologist and former astronomer currently residing in San Francisco, California.

Vallée co-developed the first computerized map of Mars for NASA in 1963. He later worked on the network information center for the ARPANET, a precursor to the modern Internet, as a staff member of SRI International's Augmentation Research Center under Douglas Engelbart. He has also served on the National Advisory Committee of the University of Michigan College of Engineering and was involved in early work on artificial intelligence.

Vallée has a Ph.d in industrial engineering and computer science.


Vallée proposes that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon, partly associated with a form of non-human consciousness that manipulates space and time. The phenomenon has been active throughout human history, and seems to masquerade in various forms to different cultures. In his opinion, the intelligence behind the phenomenon attempts social manipulation by using deception on the humans with whom they interact.

He hypothesizes that these so-called aliens/ufos that some people report are not "extraterrestrials" but "trans-dimensional beings" that originate or habituate the earth or this galaxy. He looked back at historical stories and myths/legends of demons/fairies/angels/goblins/elves/aliens going back centuries and noticed a common denominator. He hypothesizes that there are trans-dimensional "beings" that can take on different forms/appearances during different time periods and for different civilizations. For example, in medieval Europe, they took the form of "skyships", or realistic looking sailing boats floating in the clouds. There are reports that these sailing boats would land on rare occasions and their human/humanoid occupants claimed to live in the clouds. These occupants were declared as witches by the people of the time. Now they take the form of little grey things from flying saucers that claim to be from another planet (from abduction stories).

Vallee points to reports of supposed crashes like Roswell to point out that these supposed beings aren't as intelligent as they make themselves out to be, "how would a technologically advanced being capable of traveling impossible distances crash so easily?". Another common denominator throughout history are the supposed abductions by goblins, aliens, and fairies and other supposed characters. All the reports from those claiming to have been abducted by are very similar to each other. Additionally, all of these goblins, aliens/ufo, fairies have been reported to materialize and then disappear into thin air (US Navy Nimitz incident: see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDj9ZZQY2kA).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhM6q7roy1w

Just when it appeared this thread had run it's course, in a recent discussion, I brought up a vital thought (that I've long held in belief) that bears great impact on this topic, one that I omitted earlier in this thread. I guess I was so hung up on our small teeny tiny period of existence of the Milky Way. I thought that would sway a few minds, perhaps it did and perhaps it did not...but maybe this will.

Earlier I pointed out that the Milky Way takes between 220-250 Million years to complete a single rotation, and how our human existence hasn't been around long enough to come closer to 1/200th of a complete turn of the Galaxy.

Now picture this, the Milk Way is estimated to 120-140 or so light-years in diameter or from one end to the other in a straight line measure (depending in the diametric points selected.

So then by comparison, the Milky Way Galaxy would be represented by the single dot below.

. <---THIS is the Milky Way Galaxy (with our sun, solar system of planets, PLUS Billions of other stars and star systems.

vs

[..................................................] IC 1101 Galaxy

So it takes...

Start Journey ---------------Milky Way------------------End Journey (it would require you to travel at the speed of light for a period of 120,000 to 150,000 years to cover this trip!


Now with Elliptical Galaxy IC 1101, whereas it would take 6 Million light years to cross from start point to end of journey.

In the illustration above the Milky Way being the 'dot' (.) and crossing that requires 120K+ lys to reach one end from another, then....

The 'dot' references needs to be about Fifty dots to match up and compare against Galaxy IC 1101 (some times called IC 1011)

[..................................................] IC 1101 Galaxy

vs

[.] Milky Way Galaxy

But you have some who cling to the Fermi Paradox and other corners of Hubris and conclude and actually believe that our ONE little dot encompasses ALL the knowledge of what makes the universe tick. Along with who's allowed to live in it. And who's allowed to communicate within it. And How they communicate within.

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

I don't think so, who is to say that all the necessary components to create life there is lacking with Galaxy IC 1101? No one.

The Fifty Dot vs the One Dot theory says that a huge ass Galaxy like that will swallow us (Milky Way/SS/Sun/Earth), the Magellanic clouds, the Andromeda galaxy (twice the size of Milky Way) , the Triangulum galaxy and ALL the space in between and with PLENTY to spare. And there's no question that it's older and I believe the claim is made that Elliptical die at a slower pace, plenty of time for shit to happen.

As for communication techniques, perhaps like high pitch frequencies, which YOU cannot detect BUT your dog or cat sure can...are employed. Or even methods on a level we've yet to uncover or recognize exist and those communication means have been around us for Centuries....we just haven't caught the wave yet.

In my mind the math says, there's a lot going on in that big pot of soup, But then again, then there’s the easy way out...there's always the Bible. It does all the thinking for you.

BN747

tommy1808 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them.

I do wonder if that nonsense "argument" goes away when Islam has overtaken Christianity. I find it also quite hilarious that those arguments always count all people confessing to being Christans, even when some of those sects are mutually exclusive when it comes to recognizing each other at Christians in the first place...

dik909 wrote:

Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:

No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it.

It is worth the 30 seconds until it falls apart. People only see demons during sleep paralysis if they believe demons are real, if they don't, they see other stuff.
So, if you want to stop demons showing up at your bed, become an atheist or join a religion without demons.... problem solved.

I don't believe in demons, but one time when I had sleep paralysis, I became aware of the paralysis while lying on the floor of a small empty cabin, and then Death opened the door and came in to stand over me, and he was made of countless madly swirling scraps of shadow. It was actually really fkn cool.

treetreeseven wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them.

I do wonder if that nonsense "argument" goes away when Islam has overtaken Christianity. I find it also quite hilarious that those arguments always count all people confessing to being Christans, even when some of those sects are mutually exclusive when it comes to recognizing each other at Christians in the first place...

No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it.

It is worth the 30 seconds until it falls apart. People only see demons during sleep paralysis if they believe demons are real, if they don't, they see other stuff.
So, if you want to stop demons showing up at your bed, become an atheist or join a religion without demons.... problem solved.

I don't believe in demons, but one time when I had sleep paralysis, I became aware of the paralysis while lying on the floor of a small empty cabin, and then Death opened the door and came in to stand over me, and he was made of countless madly swirling scraps of shadow. It was actually really fkn cool.

I've tried all kinds of drugs...but missed the one...

But seeing Death, I think the Buy-Bull has all the answers for type of experience...

BN747

dik909 wrote:

(PS - The Pentecostal practice of "speaking in tongues" is a gross misapplication of the original Greek word 'glossa', which is translated everywhere else as Language; Paul & Luke wrote on being gifted with the ability to speak new previously-unknown languages, so as to spread the Gospel to gentile nations, not speak jibberish. Chapters 13-14 of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians goes in depth on how to interpret "speaking in tongues," but Pentecostals are quick to ignore these facts. This is why studying the original Greek and proper exegesis matters.)

I once read an article about sticking some lifelong tongues-speakers in an fMRI and seeing patterns similar to those one sees from similarly experienced people praying the rosary or meditating.

I don't doubt a great deal of the speaking in tongues that goes on is creepily coercive social psychology / performance / suggestion. In fact I suspect I would be uncomfortable being present in the majority of situations where it occurs. My point, though, is that people can use pretty much any weird repetitive practice to achieve altered states of consciousness which are arguably useful, at a bare minimum being a calming experience. The benefits of prolonged meditation are well known and rather striking. Perhaps there are strange splinters of charismatic Christianity where glosslalia (speaking in tongues) has taken on a meditative function similar to chanting a mantra, etc.

As somebody who grew up extremely secular and is now investigating Zen, what interests me isn't whether or not the earth is 6,000 years old or not - those people are obviously wrong - rather, if one looks to various traditions as a repository of accumulated knowledge and applied wisdom about living a human life in a meat body on this planet, and in the society in which we find ourselves. Again, there's plenty of BS to be had, and the most virulent of it does succeed in gathering a great deal of attention. But the more I live my life, the less willing I am to discount a faith tradition just because some of the practices may seem strange. After all, I went through a militant agnostic phase somewhat similar to the militant atheists in this thread, and now genuflecting thrice as part of my Zen practice with others feels perfectly natural.

BN747 wrote:

treetreeseven wrote:

I don't believe in demons, but one time when I had sleep paralysis, I became aware of the paralysis while lying on the floor of a small empty cabin, and then Death opened the door and came in to stand over me, and he was made of countless madly swirling scraps of shadow. It was actually really fkn cool.

I've tried all kinds of drugs...but missed the one...

But seeing Death, I think the Buy-Bull has all the answers for type of experience...

Haha. Sleep paralysis is often accompanied by dream imagery or hallucinations. I have had out of body experiences both spectacular - levitating above my bed while everything was shot through with light of the purest blue while howling wind roared - and mundane. In many sleep paralysis episodes I have an "out of body experience" that consists of being semi-aware that I'm paralyzed and willing my body to move, and then I basically see myself lying on my bed as if I've moved, but the longer this goes, the greater the discrepancy between how dream-me is positioned versus my real paralyzed body, and eventually I'll "snap back" to my actual body position.

The spectacular experiences like seeing Death or levitating in Sapphire World happen once every few years. I'm pretty satisfied with my supposition that my experiences like this are simply a strange non-typical state of consciousness that humans sometimes experience. But I grew up very secular and very science based. I can absolutely see how people with different beliefs could interpret these experiences differently. My sleep paralysis started around the age of puberty and for the first ten or fifteen years it was very similar every time - always a sound of wind or rushing air, and a few typical types of imagery. If I grew up different I could absolutely see believing I was being visited, etc.

treetreeseven wrote:

BN747 wrote:

treetreeseven wrote:

I don't believe in demons, but one time when I had sleep paralysis, I became aware of the paralysis while lying on the floor of a small empty cabin, and then Death opened the door and came in to stand over me, and he was made of countless madly swirling scraps of shadow. It was actually really fkn cool.

I've tried all kinds of drugs...but missed the one...

But seeing Death, I think the Buy-Bull has all the answers for type of experience...

Haha. Sleep paralysis is often accompanied by dream imagery or hallucinations. I have had out of body experiences both spectacular - levitating above my bed while everything was shot through with light of the purest blue while howling wind roared - and mundane. In many sleep paralysis episodes I have an "out of body experience" that consists of being semi-aware that I'm paralyzed and willing my body to move, and then I basically see myself lying on my bed as if I've moved, but the longer this goes, the greater the discrepancy between how dream-me is positioned versus my real paralyzed body, and eventually I'll "snap back" to my actual body position.

The spectacular experiences like seeing Death or levitating in Sapphire World happen once every few years. I'm pretty satisfied with my supposition that my experiences like this are simply a strange non-typical state of consciousness that humans sometimes experience. But I grew up very secular and very science based. I can absolutely see how people with different beliefs could interpret these experiences differently. My sleep paralysis started around the age of puberty and for the first ten or fifteen years it was very similar every time - always a sound of wind or rushing air, and a few typical types of imagery. If I grew up different I could absolutely see believing I was being visited, etc.

I see what you mean, at a young age I had minor bouts of sleep paralysis myself and simply wrote it off at the time as some weird psychological events via culmination of things converging all at once. But never gave it the creedance of a religious belief or having any kind of impact on my view of the cosmos in anyway.

However, that state of consciousness (of which no one has control over sans the characters in the film Inception) .. it very well could be a copy of your like-self from an inter-dimensional parallel universe just fraction of degrees from your reality plane of existence interacting with your own. If Quantum Entanglement is what the experts suggest it to be... then it could be many variations of converging at a single moment. But that’s just weird concept I think would make for a good SciFi series. I much rather focus on the undiscovered elements surrounding or Galaxy, Andromeda and the multiverse theories... no time for me to concern myself with what’ll happen to me or what am I going through - that’s all extremely insignificant brain play (cosplay). No time period. The bigger picture of Nature’s Truth and workings is what occupies my imagination. I’m just an earth worm like other 7+ Billion scurrying about on this 3rd rock from the Sun.

..and I always have time for shooting airplanes/airports!


BN747

BN747 wrote:

But you have some who cling to the Fermi Paradox and other corners of Hubris and conclude and actually believe that our ONE little dot encompasses ALL the knowledge of what makes the universe tick. Along with who's allowed to live in it. And who's allowed to communicate within it. And How they communicate within.

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

So you are stating that people should accept something as fact that cannot be tested for or verified? Sounds a lot like "belief" to me. For me, I like to believe that there is more life in the universe, in fact I am positive there is. But I honestly just don't know so I cannot equivocally state or expect everyone/anyone else to believe as I do. So I can't denigrate those that believe one way or the other.

But that is me.

Your post reminds me of one of me favorite quotes on the topic:

"Space is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space."
Douglas Adams - The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

BN747 wrote:

But you have some who cling to the Fermi Paradox and other corners of Hubris and conclude and actually believe that our ONE little dot encompasses ALL the knowledge of what makes the universe tick. Along with who's allowed to live in it. And who's allowed to communicate within it. And How they communicate within.

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

So you are stating that people should accept something as fact that cannot be tested for or verified? Sounds a lot like "belief" to me. For me, I like to believe that there is more life in the universe, in fact I am positive there is. But I honestly just don't know so I cannot equivocally state or expect everyone/anyone else to believe as I do. So I can't denigrate those that believe one way or the other.

But that is me.

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

I simply pointed out our place 1) in our galaxy 2) our galaxy’s being dwarfed by larger ones 3) and extremely high probability vs not that what’s in the Milky Way most assuredly can be found in larger, Neighboring Andromeda as well as billions of other galaxies.

Perhaps a simpler analogy is needed to clarify the obvious. Is it a forgone conclusion that humans, everyone you see ... has engaged in sex or eating? Answer, of course... we wouldn’t be here if neither was false although you see one example plainly, the other... not so much (porn excluded). BUT we all know it’s going on. My argument is ‘checking the human claim that they are unique and special in this vast universe. Sorry to cause brain pain, but we simply are not special on the galactic scale and the Milky Way would not miss us for a split second had comet Shoemaker-Levy smashed into Earth instead of Jupiter. Please point out the problem with belief in anything I just said.


BN747

BN747 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

BN747 wrote:

But you have some who cling to the Fermi Paradox and other corners of Hubris and conclude and actually believe that our ONE little dot encompasses ALL the knowledge of what makes the universe tick. Along with who's allowed to live in it. And who's allowed to communicate within it. And How they communicate within.

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

So you are stating that people should accept something as fact that cannot be tested for or verified? Sounds a lot like "belief" to me. For me, I like to believe that there is more life in the universe, in fact I am positive there is. But I honestly just don't know so I cannot equivocally state or expect everyone/anyone else to believe as I do. So I can't denigrate those that believe one way or the other.

But that is me.

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

I simply pointed out our place 1) in our galaxy 2) our galaxy’s being dwarfed by larger ones 3) and extremely high probability vs not that what’s in the Milky Way most assuredly can be found in larger, Neighboring Andromeda as well as billions of other galaxies.

I’m saying these BOLD claims made by religious scribblings are just that - religious scribblings in face of constant unfolding facts regarding the universe and all it contains. A book proclaiming talking snakes, bushes afire that speak, etc...now those prime examples of ‘beliefs’ stretched beyond any realm of reality.

Perhaps a simpler analogy is needed to clarify the obvious. Is it a forgone conclusion that humans, everyone you see ... has engaged in sex or eating? Answer, of course... we wouldn’t be here if neither was false although you see one example plainly, the other... not so much (porn excluded). BUT we all know it’s going on. My argument is ‘checking the human claim that they are unique and special in this vast universe. Sorry to cause brain pain, but we simply are not special on the galactic scale and the Milky Way would not miss us for a split second had comet Shoemaker-Levy smashed into Earth instead of Jupiter. Please point out the problem with belief in anything I just said.


BN747

And additional statement added for clarity.

BN747 wrote:

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

"...that can not be tested or verified" is not what I am speaking to (life is actively being tested for). I am just pointing out that it appears you are stating that everyone should/must accept that life and intelligent life must exist elsewhere (and in many places I think), that "we are not alone" as fact.

Life on other planets - not fact (yet... being tested for, strong evidence being found and likely proof in my lifetime)
Intelligent life on other planets - not fact
Intelligent life capable of off world travel etc. - not fact.
Intelligent life that we will be able to either discover somehow or much less contact - not fact

That is all. It is fine to point out all the probabilities and "impossibilities" based on the scale of the universe. I very well understand the math, the statistics. All I am saying is that it is not "arrogance" to not believe/accept there is other intelligent life in the universe. I respect your opinion, the data, and the argument you are presenting but we just don't know yet and may never know. It is being tested for (and yes statistics is one version of that test) but has not even achieved the level of fact. .... Yet.... My fingers are crossed though.

Oh and:

BN747 wrote:

My argument is ‘checking the human claim that they are unique and special in this vast universe. Sorry to cause brain pain, but we simply are not special on the galactic scale and the Milky Way would not miss us for a split second had comet Shoemaker-Levy smashed into Earth instead of Jupiter. Please point out the problem with belief in anything I just said.

I agree with you completely on this. The universe(s) could care less if humans blinked out of existence tomorrow. We aren't special (even if we were the only intelligent life).

Tugg

BN747 wrote:

Just when it appeared this thread had run it's course, in a recent discussion, I brought up a vital thought (that I've long held in belief) that bears great impact on this topic, one that I omitted earlier in this thread. I guess I was so hung up on our small teeny tiny period of existence of the Milky Way. I thought that would sway a few minds, perhaps it did and perhaps it did not...but maybe this will.

Earlier I pointed out that the Milky Way takes between 220-250 Million years to complete a single rotation, and how our human existence hasn't been around long enough to come closer to 1/200th of a complete turn of the Galaxy.

Now picture this, the Milk Way is estimated to 120-140 or so light-years in diameter or from one end to the other in a straight line measure (depending in the diametric points selected.

So then by comparison, the Milky Way Galaxy would be represented by the single dot below.

. <---THIS is the Milky Way Galaxy (with our sun, solar system of planets, PLUS Billions of other stars and star systems.

vs

[..................................................] IC 1101 Galaxy

So it takes...

Start Journey ---------------Milky Way------------------End Journey (it would require you to travel at the speed of light for a period of 120,000 to 150,000 years to cover this trip!


Now with Elliptical Galaxy IC 1101, whereas it would take 6 Million light years to cross from start point to end of journey.

In the illustration above the Milky Way being the 'dot' (.) and crossing that requires 120K+ lys to reach one end from another, then....

The 'dot' references needs to be about Fifty dots to match up and compare against Galaxy IC 1101 (some times called IC 1011)

[..................................................] IC 1101 Galaxy

vs

[.] Milky Way Galaxy

But you have some who cling to the Fermi Paradox and other corners of Hubris and conclude and actually believe that our ONE little dot encompasses ALL the knowledge of what makes the universe tick. Along with who's allowed to live in it. And who's allowed to communicate within it. And How they communicate within.

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

I don't think so, who is to say that all the necessary components to create life there is lacking with Galaxy IC 1101? No one.

The Fifty Dot vs the One Dot theory says that a huge ass Galaxy like that will swallow us (Milky Way/SS/Sun/Earth), the Magellanic clouds, the Andromeda galaxy (twice the size of Milky Way) , the Triangulum galaxy and ALL the space in between and with PLENTY to spare. And there's no question that it's older and I believe the claim is made that Elliptical die at a slower pace, plenty of time for shit to happen.

As for communication techniques, perhaps like high pitch frequencies, which YOU cannot detect BUT your dog or cat sure can...are employed. Or even methods on a level we've yet to uncover or recognize exist and those communication means have been around us for Centuries....we just haven't caught the wave yet.

In my mind the math says, there's a lot going on in that big pot of soup, But then again, then there’s the easy way out...there's always the Bible. It does all the thinking for you.

BN747

“You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..."

LOL. This is great.

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than a universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

Tugger wrote:

BN747 wrote:

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

"...that can not be tested or verified" is not what I am speaking to (life is actively being tested for). I am just pointing out that it appears you are stating that everyone should/must accept that life and intelligent life must exist elsewhere (and in many places I think), that "we are not alone" as fact.

Life on other planets - not fact (yet... being tested for, strong evidence being found and likely proof in my lifetime)
Intelligent life on other planets - not fact
Intelligent life capable of off world travel etc. - not fact.
Intelligent life that we will be able to either discover somehow or much less contact - not fact

That is all. It is fine to point out all the probabilities and "impossibilities" based on the scale of the universe. I very well understand the math, the statistics. All I am saying is that it is not "arrogance" to not believe/accept there is other intelligent life in the universe. I respect your opinion, the data, and the argument you are presenting but we just don't know yet and may never know. It is being tested for (and yes statistics is one version of that test) but has not even achieved the level of fact. .... Yet.... My fingers are crossed though.

Tugg

Yes it is arrogance because it's based on nothing more than the assumption that we are 'IT"..and on many occasions where we've been proven wrong when holding steadfast on subjects where more, MUCH MORE remains to be uncovered and discovered. Again, Bible/Torah/Quran beliefs withstanding.

Well Tugg, I view it this way, 'Intelligent life' as expressed by you (and most people) is simply an a 'one size fits' claim made by humans, it's a human-centric defining claim...and just I've pointed out earlier regarding if Martians were walking, levitating on Mars...they say to us humans, 'WTF is a Martian and who are you to be calling me that?'

...answer, we are the Humans and we have decided to name your species that.
Martian: So who put you in charge?
Human: God.
Martian: WTF is that?

...you get my point, our interpretation of intelligent life is that limited - by us. We have invented intelligent 'life' with these new AI devices and technology. So it goes to day, anyone looking at the numbers, the expanse of the whole and concludes 'life must exist elsewhere (which is very reasonable from where I sit) then a step further makes it easy for us to accept microbial life, deep sea critters and the possibility of cavemen like creatures *which would totally amp up our confidence (and arrogance) but it seems that we sort of recoil at the thought that there is SMARTER life forms out there (while we continuously crank out 'smarter alien' films by the minute. So in short I'm just saying what we deem 'intelligent life' may not equate the universe's definition of 'intelligent life'...hell, if someone out there is observing is and were to conclude those people are unbelievably stupid, who's question their judgment?

Intelligent life on other planets - not fact - TRUE, but numerical odds are very much against that statement (religious types are too far gone to entertain that notion).
Intelligent life capable of off world travel etc. - not fact. - TRUE, but just because we have yet to achieve it, doesn't mean someone else hasn't.
Intelligent life that we will be able to either discover somehow or much less contact - not fact - Again TRUE, uh huh and in the same vein as 'we know all the methods of communication/contact' is again absurd in thinking we have all the bases covered in that regard. We do not, the high frequency dog whistle is a testament to our not having 'our bases' covered when it comes to methods of contact/communication.

As i said before, Whales have been here 25 millions years longer than us...and because our understanding of 'whale' is rather limited, but no question if could communicate with them we'd learn a treasure trove of info.

Good chat Bro..

Tugger wrote:

BN747 wrote:

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

"...that can not be tested or verified" is not what I am speaking to (life is actively being tested for). I am just pointing out that it appears you are stating that everyone should/must accept that life and intelligent life must exist elsewhere (and in many places I think), that "we are not alone" as fact.
All I am saying is that it is not "arrogance" to not believe/accept there is other intelligent life in the universe. I respect your opinion, the data, and the argument you are presenting but we just don't know yet and may never know. It is being tested for (and yes statistics is one version of that test) but has not even achieved the level of fact. .... Yet.... My fingers are crossed though.

Oh and:

BN747 wrote:

My argument is ‘checking the human claim that they are unique and special in this vast universe. Sorry to cause brain pain, but we simply are not special on the galactic scale and the Milky Way would not miss us for a split second had comet Shoemaker-Levy smashed into Earth instead of Jupiter. Please point out the problem with belief in anything I just said.

I agree with you completely on this. The universe(s) could care less if humans blinked out of existence tomorrow. We aren't special (even if we were the only intelligent life).

Tugg

All I can say to that is, we do now know that Mars has Mountains and rocks...even ice (water). So obviously we cannot conclude ONLY Earth has water. Justin's 'cup of water..thus no whales exist' analogy speaks loudly to that as to say it applies to 'life' as well, the abundance of necessary components for life is just so defiant towards no one else existing.

Again, great trying to sort this all out with you...and millions of other inquisitive minds! Cheers!

CitizenJustin wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

I don't think so, who is to say that all the necessary components to create life there is lacking with Galaxy IC 1101? No one.

The Fifty Dot vs the One Dot theory says that a huge ass Galaxy like that will swallow us (Milky Way/SS/Sun/Earth), the Magellanic clouds, the Andromeda galaxy (twice the size of Milky Way) , the Triangulum galaxy and ALL the space in between and with PLENTY to spare. And there's no question that it's older and I believe the claim is made that Elliptical die at a slower pace, plenty of time for shit to happen.

As for communication techniques, perhaps like high pitch frequencies, which YOU cannot detect BUT your dog or cat sure can...are employed. Or even methods on a level we've yet to uncover or recognize exist and those communication means have been around us for Centuries....we just haven't caught the wave yet.

In my mind the math says, there's a lot going on in that big pot of soup, But then again, then there’s the easy way out...there's always the Bible. It does all the thinking for you.

BN747

“You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..."

LOL. This is great.

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than a universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

I like that one as well Justin, a brilliant analogy if ever there was one displaying the shallowness of human thought residing in most minds.

BN747

CitizenJustin wrote:

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than a universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

To me the gigantic variable is: Time

What constitutes "alone"?
All time/Forever?
Or during our "time" of existence?
Or discovered by us during "our time" (which means that life existed probably millions to billions off years ago and is probably no longer).

If intelligent life occurs once every 100 million years and on average only lasts 100 thousand years, and is separated by millions and billions of LY's.... is that "alone"? If we ever achieve Star Trek space travel ability and we find evidence of past life then would you be content?. Or do you want "contact" (however you define that).

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than a universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

To me the gigantic variable is: Time

What constitutes "alone"?
All time/Forever?
Or during our "time" of existence?
Or discovered by us during "our time" (which means that life existed probably millions to billions off years ago and is probably no longer).

If intelligent life occurs once every 100 million years and on average only lasts 100 thousand years, and is separated by millions and billions of LY's.... is that "alone"? If we ever achieve Star Trek space travel ability and we find evidence of past life then would you be content?. Or do you want "contact" (however you define that).

Tugg

Exactly, TIME is everything.

And that every 100 Million years mark is occurring for some Sun/Star/Planet (with trillions out there) every second of every day somewhere in all that vastness...

BN747

BN747 wrote:

Exactly, TIME is everything.

And that every 100 Million years mark is occurring for some Sun/Star/Planet (with trillions out there) every second of every day somewhere in all that vastness...

Yeah, I sure can make someone think that their might be a lot of intelligent life out there. But we still don't know the calculus for how often life actually sustains on those hundreds of millions... of billions... of trillions of planets. It could be one in a trillion odds because there is no actual settled science on this. That could mean 100's of intelligent life in the universe over 13 billion years year so far, which means each is basically alone and the only life in the universe.

I will say it again: We just don't know. But boy do I want to find life and intelligent life and explore the universe to see what life has existed.

BN747 wrote:

Again, great trying to sort this all out with you...and millions of other inquisitive minds! Cheers!

Agreed!

Tugg

BN747 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

BN747 wrote:

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

"...that can not be tested or verified" is not what I am speaking to (life is actively being tested for). I am just pointing out that it appears you are stating that everyone should/must accept that life and intelligent life must exist elsewhere (and in many places I think), that "we are not alone" as fact.

Life on other planets - not fact (yet... being tested for, strong evidence being found and likely proof in my lifetime)
Intelligent life on other planets - not fact
Intelligent life capable of off world travel etc. - not fact.
Intelligent life that we will be able to either discover somehow or much less contact - not fact

That is all. It is fine to point out all the probabilities and "impossibilities" based on the scale of the universe. I very well understand the math, the statistics. All I am saying is that it is not "arrogance" to not believe/accept there is other intelligent life in the universe. I respect your opinion, the data, and the argument you are presenting but we just don't know yet and may never know. It is being tested for (and yes statistics is one version of that test) but has not even achieved the level of fact. .... Yet.... My fingers are crossed though.

Tugg

Yes it is arrogance because it's based on nothing more than the assumption that we are 'IT"..and on many occasions where we've been proven wrong when holding steadfast on subjects where more, MUCH MORE remains to be uncovered and discovered. Again, Bible/Torah/Quran beliefs withstanding.

Well Tugg, I view it this way, 'Intelligent life' as expressed by you (and most people) is simply an a 'one size fits' claim made by humans, it's a human-centric defining claim...and just I've pointed out earlier regarding if Martians were walking, levitating on Mars...they say to us humans, 'WTF is a Martian and who are you to be calling me that?'

...answer, we are the Humans and we have decided to name your species that.
Martian: So who put you in charge?
Human: God.
Martian: WTF is that?

...you get my point, our interpretation of intelligent life is that limited - by us. We have invented intelligent 'life' with these new AI devices and technology. So it goes to day, anyone looking at the numbers, the expanse of the whole and concludes 'life must exist elsewhere (which is very reasonable from where I sit) then a step further makes it easy for us to accept microbial life, deep sea critters and the possibility of cavemen like creatures *which would totally amp up our confidence (and arrogance) but it seems that we sort of recoil at the thought that there is SMARTER life forms out there (while we continuously crank out 'smarter alien' films by the minute. So in short I'm just saying what we deem 'intelligent life' may not equate the universe's definition of 'intelligent life'...hell, if someone out there is observing is and were to conclude those people are unbelievably stupid, who's question their judgment?

Intelligent life on other planets - not fact - TRUE, but numerical odds are very much against that statement (religious types are too far gone to entertain that notion).
Intelligent life capable of off world travel etc. - not fact. - TRUE, but just because we have yet to achieve it, doesn't mean someone else hasn't.
Intelligent life that we will be able to either discover somehow or much less contact - not fact - Again TRUE, uh huh and in the same vein as 'we know all the methods of communication/contact' is again absurd in thinking we have all the bases covered in that regard. We do not, the high frequency dog whistle is a testament to our not having 'our bases' covered when it comes to methods of contact/communication.

As i said before, Whales have been here 25 millions years longer than us...and because our understanding of 'whale' is rather limited, but no question if could communicate with them we'd learn a treasure trove of info.

Good chat Bro..

Tugger wrote:

BN747 wrote:

What exactly am I asking to be ‘accepted’ that can not be tested or verified?

Galaxies exist - fact
Galaxy components/elements - fact
Galaxy in motion - fact
Additional Galaxies - fact
Massive Galaxies - fact
Small Galaxies - fact

"...that can not be tested or verified" is not what I am speaking to (life is actively being tested for). I am just pointing out that it appears you are stating that everyone should/must accept that life and intelligent life must exist elsewhere (and in many places I think), that "we are not alone" as fact.
All I am saying is that it is not "arrogance" to not believe/accept there is other intelligent life in the universe. I respect your opinion, the data, and the argument you are presenting but we just don't know yet and may never know. It is being tested for (and yes statistics is one version of that test) but has not even achieved the level of fact. .... Yet.... My fingers are crossed though.

Oh and:

BN747 wrote:

My argument is ‘checking the human claim that they are unique and special in this vast universe. Sorry to cause brain pain, but we simply are not special on the galactic scale and the Milky Way would not miss us for a split second had comet Shoemaker-Levy smashed into Earth instead of Jupiter. Please point out the problem with belief in anything I just said.

I agree with you completely on this. The universe(s) could care less if humans blinked out of existence tomorrow. We aren't special (even if we were the only intelligent life).

Tugg

All I can say to that is, we do now know that Mars has Mountains and rocks...even ice (water). So obviously we cannot conclude ONLY Earth has water. Justin's 'cup of water..thus no whales exist' analogy speaks loudly to that as to say it applies to 'life' as well, the abundance of necessary components for life is just so defiant towards no one else existing.

Again, great trying to sort this all out with you...and millions of other inquisitive minds! Cheers!

CitizenJustin wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Well this scaling of juxtaposition tells you 'you are a complete and utter fool' if you buy into that nonsense in the face of these measurements. You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..." End of story.

I don't think so, who is to say that all the necessary components to create life there is lacking with Galaxy IC 1101? No one.

The Fifty Dot vs the One Dot theory says that a huge ass Galaxy like that will swallow us (Milky Way/SS/Sun/Earth), the Magellanic clouds, the Andromeda galaxy (twice the size of Milky Way) , the Triangulum galaxy and ALL the space in between and with PLENTY to spare. And there's no question that it's older and I believe the claim is made that Elliptical die at a slower pace, plenty of time for shit to happen.

As for communication techniques, perhaps like high pitch frequencies, which YOU cannot detect BUT your dog or cat sure can...are employed. Or even methods on a level we've yet to uncover or recognize exist and those communication means have been around us for Centuries....we just haven't caught the wave yet.

In my mind the math says, there's a lot going on in that big pot of soup, But then again, then there’s the easy way out...there's always the Bible. It does all the thinking for you.

BN747

“You're like some some Snow Flea on Mount Everest screaming at the top of his/her lungs that.. "we are the Kings of all on this mountain, and because no one has come to visit us, there is no one else out there..."

LOL. This is great.

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than a universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

I like that one as well Justin, a brilliant analogy if ever there was one displaying the shallowness of human thought residing in most minds.

BN747

I for one believe NASA when they say we will likely have the answer in 20 years. We have incredible new technology coming online and revolutionary telescopes, so this should be an interesting few decade. Of course if life is proven beyond earth, many people will deny it and the paranoid conspiracy theorists will be having a melt down. Also, I’m sure some Christians as they’ve told me would believe aliens are demons sent by god to test our faith. This is really making me realize that any intelligent life would probably want to stay away. We’re still far too superstitious and I can see some fanatical people deciding to kill because god told him to. Why would any life want to come to this hostile world filled with the superstitious? Would be too dangerous.

Tugger wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than ap universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

To me the gigantic variable is: Time

What constitutes "alone"?
All time/Forever?
Or during our "time" of existence?
Or discovered by us during "our time" (which means that life existed probably millions to billions off years ago and is probably no longer).

If intelligent life occurs once every 100 million years and on average only lasts 100 thousand years, and is separated by millions and billions of LY's.... is that "alone"? If we ever achieve Star Trek space travel ability and we find evidence of past life then would you be content?. Or do you want "contact" (however you define that).

Tugg

I think I would be content just knowing that life does arise elsewhere. I truly hope we make a discovery before I die. Otherwise, I’ll be a very depressed man. To me, the absense of aliens is terrifying and raises far more questions than if the universe is filled with life. I suppose many would be comforted to know that we’re all alone, but not me.

CitizenJustin wrote:

I think I would be content just knowing that life does arise elsewhere. I truly hope we make a discovery before I die.

I can agree with you on this (I don't know I would be depressed to not discover it). Of course as BN747 has been pointing out there are billions of galaxies so though we will never be able to detect and/or contact any possible life that might occur in them, there is still a strong possibility of it. Unfortunately, for any "provable" non-Solar life (I am reasonably certain will find it and even that we will expand beyond just Earth) we are probably limited to our Milky Way galaxy only,

I am hopeful if not positive/100% convinced.

Tugg

CitizenJustin wrote:

Tugger wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

A scientist(can’t remember who)once said dismissing life beyond earth is like dipping a small cup into the ocean, filling it up with water and proclaiming no whales exist.

I particularly like that one. In my opinion, the absence of life raises more questions than ap universe teeming with life. I think being alone is actually a terrifying prospect.

To me the gigantic variable is: Time

What constitutes "alone"?
All time/Forever?
Or during our "time" of existence?
Or discovered by us during "our time" (which means that life existed probably millions to billions off years ago and is probably no longer).

If intelligent life occurs once every 100 million years and on average only lasts 100 thousand years, and is separated by millions and billions of LY's.... is that "alone"? If we ever achieve Star Trek space travel ability and we find evidence of past life then would you be content?. Or do you want "contact" (however you define that).

Tugg

I think I would be content just knowing that life does arise elsewhere. I truly hope we make a discovery before I die. Otherwise, I’ll be a very depressed man. To me, the absense of aliens is terrifying and raises far more questions than if the universe is filled with life. I suppose many would be comforted to know that we’re all alone, but not me.

It wouldn't bother in the slightest to perish before that time when the established scientific community confirms life elsewhere, because I know I more apt to be correct on the issue based on facts of known pervasiveness of necessary elements & compounds for life confirmation. Those of us, who believe in the direction in which recent discoveries (goldie locks-zoned Earth-like exo-planets) are pointed, must except we may not be around to witness such an Earth-Shattering revelation (perhaps I should say 'Bible-Shattering).

We must see ourselves as being stuck on the edge resisting conventional thinking of the masses as did the far far insignificant number of followers who supported Copernicus, Kepler, Giordano Bruno and Galileo during their times and their David vs Goliath battles...except they 'were 'David' long long after their deaths and the deaths of their meager number of believers. The difference...there are far more of us today than there were yesterday. Because of the rapid dissemination of new discoveries at such rate (thanks internet) ...Bible/Torah/Quran-believing types are increasing BUT they are losing faithful followers at a rapid pace, faster than ever before.

I more or less try to envision the angst that people like Copernicus, Kepler to Einstein, etc...endured after they had spent weeks, months and years 'scribbling' out their famed discoveries, only having to wait and wait and wait...for the recipient of such receive it...then spend time to digest it and when the proverbial light bulb goes off in their heads - then by the time they answer with a responding message...the author has moved on to something else more bold or enlightening. As to only think or say 'yeah, yeah..that's old news, IO'm onto something really really good now. The spreading of such knowledge had to be painfully, no, agonizingly slow, We live in a much batter time, today, it's almost instant. And yet, we find ourselves at another crossroads of obstruction, meaning...

We sort of hope someone like an amateur makes the discovery or the Indian Space agency or anyone BUT NASA because we aren't sure that NASA would be so forthcoming. They, of course, would most likely choose to 'weigh' the discovery. Long term thought of consideration of it's impact on the global community. Whereas a lesser agency or 'finder' who launch into telling everyone he/she knows. The power of knowledge is a huge threat to 'those in power' when they do not possess nor have any idea to utilize or process something so unexpected. I'm certain they already have a litany of pre-canned/scripted' responses on such matters. Or they are drafting or modifying it with new nugget of information that is discovered - they are 'big picture' people at the top of this game. But just as grass roots people in politics, amateur astronomers are the uncontrolled hell-raisers that will certainly make their situation difficult to manage.

But we are indeed living during an exciting moment, while simultaneously enduring a poised 'anti-everyone should know' element has it's trigger at the ready when the BIG moment comes...and they will strike brutally to keep their 'perceived credibility' valid.

BN747

Absolutely excellent serialized podcast on this topic:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/07 ... -universe/