Trump to ban BMW/Mercedes from US Markets

tommy1808 · Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:36 pm

CCGPV wrote:
Mueller has stated Trump is not under criminal investigation in the Russia Collusion investigation.

If he said it that way that would be plenty of reason to worry for Trump, because if he limited that statement to the Russia thing, he'd probably be under criminal investigation for something else already, and Mueller knows about it. Probably some state crime and maybe even the same Russia is holding over his head.

But there is good news, Trump successfully lowered the trade deficit with Germany. Würth has just announced to hold all investments in the US as long Trump is in the WH. And since FDI counts towards deficits, that I'll improve. Of course there also won't be the US jobs that the investments would have created.

Best regards
Thomas

Aesma · Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:59 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Aesma wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
People, especially Europeans, often fail to understand that the average import duty on US goods to the EU is almost twice as high as the average import duty for EU goods going into the US. EU member state citizens always think that their EU has invented free trade, but the reality is that only intra-EU trade is free. All external trade with the EU is highly regulated by it in order to protect its common market. US auto makers exporting to the EU face way higher duties than EU automakers importing to the US.

Trump is not the villain here. The Eurocrats are. Let's do true free trade with no tariffs at all - or see your goods get more expensive until there is equilibrium. It's really not all that difficult. The thing is, most Europeans don't know this. They honestly think there are no tariffs on anything coming to the EU, even many politicians don't know how it really works. So the result is all this indignation at Trump introducing a small new tariff on a small amount of goods. Laughable.

fake news

Sure. Why deal with my factual arguments when you can just demean me by calling me a liar.

Well what are your factual arguments ? You talk about wanting free trade, yet it's Trump that has shut down the talks on free trade. These talks were quite unpopular in the EU and done with a lot of secrecy, so now there is no way they will resume, the only thing that can happen is higher tariffs on both sides aka a trade war. Usually people who start wars are considered the villains.

And of course portraying the EU as evil with lots of tariffs while not mentioning that the US has tariffs on many things and doesn't hesitate to slap them when it wants, even under Obama. In France we're well aware of a 300% import tariff slapped on the French cheese Roquefort for example, and that happened 10 years ago.

The US wants to sell stuff to us that are illegal here, we don't want to get poisoned, can you understand that ? You do the same, for example making a diesel car compliant with US emission standards is very difficult, you don't want that stuff and I agree with you. "Eurocrats" are not trying to force you to let diesel cars in last time I checked, why are you trying to force hormone grown beef on us ?

mham001 · Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
mham001 wrote:

There was easily enough similar dirt swirling around the Clinton Foundation, how did they escape all scrutiny?

ENDLESS INVESTIGATIONS!!!/

I have not heard about those investigations into the huge donations submitted by foreign governments to the Clinton Foundation. Can you provide a source?

seb146 wrote:
Because you righites insisted they were toxic and there were bad things going on. Hillary murdered Vince Foster. No one found any evidence, but she did it! Hillary was running a child prostitution ring from the basement of a pizza parlor. There was zero evidence and that was investigated but they did it!

Why are you righties so willing to believe literally ANYTHING about the Clintons with ZERO evidence but you all refuse to believe what has happened with Russia and tRump even with evidence mounting?

BTW, I know it provides you succor to call people names you hope to demean, but I voted for Obama in 2012.

aviationaware · Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Aesma wrote:

Well what are your factual arguments ? You talk about wanting free trade, yet it's Trump that has shut down the talks on free trade.

TTIP was not free trade, it was stupid trade. Free trade agreements only work when the partners have a comparable level of prosperity. If they do not, corporations shift their resources into the newly added less prosperous market because it is cheaper to produce there. That's what happened with NAFTA and Mexico, it's what happens with almost all big trade deals.

A trade deal with Germany, France or Britain? Let's get it on in a minute, but since the EU doesn't roll that way and wants to include Romania and other cheap labor countries, no but thanks no. Thank god there is no dummy in the White House anymore, but someone who gets these basic things.

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:33 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Thank god there is no dummy in the White House anymore, but someone who gets these basic things.

Oh Lawd. A modern-day Luddite.

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:03 pm

jetero wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Thank god there is no dummy in the White House anymore, but someone who gets these basic things.

Oh Lawd. A modern-day Luddite.

That's....not the correct use of luddite you buffoon.

You got your dumb insult in so you've done your part.

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:24 pm

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Thank god there is no dummy in the White House anymore, but someone who gets these basic things.

Oh Lawd. A modern-day Luddite.

That's....not the correct use of luddite you buffoon.

You got your dumb insult in so you've done your part.

OK, if you say so, it must be right.

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:25 pm

mham001 wrote:
Not war winning news, but certainly a battle won.

MikeDrop · Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:25 pm

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:

Oh Lawd. A modern-day Luddite.

That's....not the correct use of luddite you buffoon.

You got your dumb insult in so you've done your part.

OK, if you say so, it must be right.

https://www.google.com/search?q=luddite ... e&ie=UTF-8

He is correct, you are using the term incorrectly.

Mike Drop

mham001 · Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:26 pm

Catching up on last month's auto news this morning, it really is looking very gloomy for the Germans. Sedan sales are in decline and Tesla came in and is stealing the rest. Model 3 is already outselling the German competition in the US and Europe is buying more Model S than any German flagship. Yes, dominating Europe. Meanwhile, Porsche has stopped taking orders on some or all 2019 vehicles in Europe for now, as has BMW (2 models) because they found they will have problems passing real world emission tests in which they can't cheat. Mercedes is not doing much better.

http://europe.autonews.com/

And then...look at this..

BMW may source more U.S. steel after tariff move
BMW said it may increase the amount of steel it sources locally for its South Carolina plant after Washington imposed tariffs on imports of steel and aluminum from the...

http://www.autonews.com/

Not war winning news, but certainly a battle won.

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:28 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

That's....not the correct use of luddite you buffoon.

You got your dumb insult in so you've done your part.

OK, if you say so, it must be right.

https://www.google.com/search?q=luddite ... e&ie=UTF-8

He is correct, you are using the term incorrectly.

Mike Drop

As if on cue . . . oh Mikey

It's a perfectly apt metaphor for someone who bucks years of widely accepted economic orthodoxy and thinks that trade wars will protect jobs and promote wealth in the long run

But good research skillz

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:51 pm

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=luddite ... e&ie=UTF-8

He is correct, you are using the term incorrectly.

Mike Drop

As if on cue . . . oh Mikey

It's a perfectly apt metaphor for someone who bucks years of widely accepted economic orthodoxy and thinks that trade wars will protect jobs and promote wealth in the long run

But good research skillz

But its not the correct word to use in that instance. Not at all. You're just wrong.

Typical Jetero its OK to be wrong sometimes.

OK CC

Let's keep on going

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:53 pm

jetero wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
jetero wrote:

OK, if you say so, it must be right.

https://www.google.com/search?q=luddite ... e&ie=UTF-8

He is correct, you are using the term incorrectly.

Mike Drop

As if on cue . . . oh Mikey

It's a perfectly apt metaphor for someone who bucks years of widely accepted economic orthodoxy and thinks that trade wars will protect jobs and promote wealth in the long run

But good research skillz

But its not the correct word to use in that instance. Not at all. You're just wrong.

Typical Jetero its OK to be wrong sometimes.

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:04 pm

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:

As if on cue . . . oh Mikey

It's a perfectly apt metaphor for someone who bucks years of widely accepted economic orthodoxy and thinks that trade wars will protect jobs and promote wealth in the long run

But good research skillz

But its not the correct word to use in that instance. Not at all. You're just wrong.

Typical Jetero its OK to be wrong sometimes.

OK CC

Let's keep on going

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:15 pm

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

But its not the correct word to use in that instance. Not at all. You're just wrong.

Typical Jetero its OK to be wrong sometimes.

OK CC

Let's keep on going

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

"OK CC" as a defense?

Hmmmmm . . . is it possible you might not be the expert on semantics that you fancy yourself to be?

mham001 · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:23 pm

CCGPV wrote:

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

It is a lot easier if you just put non-contributing posters on your Foe list. It works wonders, the problem is other people quoting it, please stop.

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 pm

mham001 wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

It is a lot easier if you just put non-contributing posters on your Foe list. It works wonders, the problem is other people quoting it, please stop.

Such a sensitive bunch on here . . .

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:36 pm

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

"OK CC" as a defense?

Hmmmmm . . . is it possible you might not be the expert on semantics that you fancy yourself to be?

I've never claimed to be an expert on anything. That's your delusional prejudice showing itself again.

Yep that's it for sure :thumbsup:

I've got all day.

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:38 pm

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:

OK CC

Let's keep on going

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

"OK CC" as a defense?

Hmmmmm . . . is it possible you might not be the expert on semantics that you fancy yourself to be?

I've never claimed to be an expert on anything. That's your delusional prejudice showing itself again.

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:39 pm

mham001 wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Why do you feel the need to defend using the wrong word?

It is a lot easier if you just put non-contributing posters on your Foe list. It works wonders, the problem is other people quoting it, please stop.

I don't have any foes here. I love all the discussions. It brings the forum to a higher more enjoyable level for everyone.

JJJ · Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:06 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Well what are your factual arguments ? You talk about wanting free trade, yet it's Trump that has shut down the talks on free trade.

TTIP was not free trade, it was stupid trade. Free trade agreements only work when the partners have a comparable level of prosperity. If they do not, corporations shift their resources into the newly added less prosperous market because it is cheaper to produce there. That's what happened with NAFTA and Mexico, it's what happens with almost all big trade deals.

A trade deal with Germany, France or Britain? Let's get it on in a minute, but since the EU doesn't roll that way and wants to include Romania and other cheap labor countries, no but thanks no. Thank god there is no dummy in the White House anymore, but someone who gets these basic things.

Of course, everyone knows Germany, France, Switzerland, etc are all flooded with cheap Romanian products with whom local companies can't compete.

Glad you saw it coming. You dodged a bullet there.

Dutchy · Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:07 pm

mham001 wrote:
Catching up on last month's auto news this morning, it really is looking very gloomy for the Germans. Sedan sales are in decline and Tesla came in and is stealing the rest. Model 3 is already outselling the German competition in the US and Europe is buying more Model S than any German flagship. Yes, dominating Europe. Meanwhile, Porsche has stopped taking orders on some or all 2019 vehicles in Europe for now, as has BMW (2 models) because they found they will have problems passing real world emission tests in which they can't cheat. Mercedes is not doing much better.

http://europe.autonews.com/

And then...look at this..

BMW may source more U.S. steel after tariff move
BMW said it may increase the amount of steel it sources locally for its South Carolina plant after Washington imposed tariffs on imports of steel and aluminum from the...

http://www.autonews.com/

Not war winning news, but certainly a battle won.

What battle has been won? In return, the EU has put in more tariffs on certain American made products. And Trump has made US produced cars more expensive, which will be paid by the consumer.

As for the EU car sales, well Porsche, BMW, Mercedes Benz and others need to comply with EU emission rules. Good for Tesla they are doing fine, electrify the automotive industry. A pioneer in this field. The rest of the world is catching up. A Telsa 3 would actually an American car which I would consider buying. Normally, I am not a fan of American cars, just like many many others outside of the US.

Dutchy · Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:10 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Thank god there is no dummy in the White House anymore, but someone who gets these basic things.

Huh? Did I miss something? When was Trump expelled from the White House?

JJJ · Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:14 pm

jetero wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Not war winning news, but certainly a battle won.

Pretty much. Look how well Tesla is doing on the open market, but also look how well our steel industry is doing through tariffs and choking the competition.

Make up your mind, man. Is free trade good or only when it suits companies from a particular country?

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:16 pm

NB quick Internet search yields metaphorical use of word “luddite” in context of trade in The Economist

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/ ... free-trade

And another

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/ar ... dites//amp

Mike ... Drop

seb146 · Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:28 pm

mham001 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
mham001 wrote:

There was easily enough similar dirt swirling around the Clinton Foundation, how did they escape all scrutiny?

ENDLESS INVESTIGATIONS!!!/

I have not heard about those investigations into the huge donations submitted by foreign governments to the Clinton Foundation. Can you provide a source?

I can't believe I am saying this, but you know exactly what I am talking about.

Besides, Hillary did not have the Russian government working around the clock to spread fake reports about tRump, did she? She did not meet with top Russian officials in her family branded hotel, did she?

seb146 wrote:
Because you righites insisted they were toxic and there were bad things going on. Hillary murdered Vince Foster. No one found any evidence, but she did it! Hillary was running a child prostitution ring from the basement of a pizza parlor. There was zero evidence and that was investigated but they did it!

Why are you righties so willing to believe literally ANYTHING about the Clintons with ZERO evidence but you all refuse to believe what has happened with Russia and tRump even with evidence mounting?

BTW, I know it provides you succor to call people names you hope to demean, but I voted for Obama in 2012.

So you voted for Obama in 2012? Are we supposed to just give you a pass and let you say whatever you want about Obama and Hillary and every Democrat?

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:52 pm

jetero wrote:
NB quick Internet search yields metaphorical use of word “luddite” in context of trade in The Economist

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/ ... free-trade

And another

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/ar ... dites//amp

Mike ... Drop

You went out of your way to prove you were right. I made you do that. For attention.

And you did it. I made a total stranger on the internet actually do something in the real world. I live for that. I know I can always count on you to engage.

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:59 pm

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
NB quick Internet search yields metaphorical use of word “luddite” in context of trade in The Economist

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/ ... free-trade

And another

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/ar ... dites//amp

Mike ... Drop

You went out of your way to prove you were right. I made you do that. For attention.

And you did it. I made a total stranger on the internet actually do something in the real world. I live for that. I know I can always count on you to engage.

YOU WIN THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!

Nope, just you.

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:00 pm

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
NB quick Internet search yields metaphorical use of word “luddite” in context of trade in The Economist

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/ ... free-trade

And another

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/ar ... dites//amp

Mike ... Drop

You went out of your way to prove you were right. I made you do that. For attention.

And you did it. I made a total stranger on the internet actually do something in the real world. I live for that. I know I can always count on you to engage.

YOU WIN THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!

jetero · Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 pm

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

You went out of your way to prove you were right. I made you do that. For attention.

And you did it. I made a total stranger on the internet actually do something in the real world. I live for that. I know I can always count on you to engage.

YOU WIN THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!

Nope, just you.

Oh CC you sly dog!!!!!!!

CCGPV · Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:40 pm

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:

YOU WIN THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!

Nope, just you.

Oh CC you sly dog!!!!!!!

I've been open and honest since day one.

I'm here for the conversation and to be a moderate voice in everything.

jetero · Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:05 am

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Nope, just you.

Oh CC you sly dog!!!!!!!

I've been open and honest since day one.

I'm here for the conversation and to be a moderate voice in everything.

CCGPV · Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:23 am

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:

Oh CC you sly dog!!!!!!!

I've been open and honest since day one.

I'm here for the conversation and to be a moderate voice in everything.

Its a lot of fun isn't it. Always something fun being talked about here. Always exciting!

CCGPV · Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:26 am

jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:

Its a lot of fun isn't it. Always something fun being talked about here. Always exciting!

It’s a real gas, CC

I'm glad you're having fun too! That's what life is all about. Don't sweat the small stuff and laugh!

jetero · Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:29 am

CCGPV wrote:
jetero wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

I've been open and honest since day one.

I'm here for the conversation and to be a moderate voice in everything.

Its a lot of fun isn't it. Always something fun being talked about here. Always exciting!

It’s a real gas, CC

sccutler · Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:39 am

jetero wrote:
How does one deal with a president and his staff who blatantly lies day in and day out?

We managed.

But, I think it's silly to continue focusing on the previous administration, simply no longer relevant.

jetero · Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:22 am

sccutler wrote:
jetero wrote:
How does one deal with a president and his staff who blatantly lies day in and day out?

We managed.

But, I think it's silly to continue focusing on the previous administration, simply no longer relevant.

#PostcardsFromDallas

tommy1808 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:51 am

mham001 wrote:
and Europe is buying more Model S than any German flagship. Yes, dominating Europe.

Ah, you are being cute again. So you are comparing the sales number of a Middle Class Sedan with that of an Upper Class Sedan and think you get any meaningfull information from that? .You need to compare with the likes of BMW series 5, Mercedes Benz E-Class or Audi A6.

Germany, April 2018, last official numbers, new registries by brand:

Tesla on place 35, dead last, behind Chinese shitcar builder Ssangyong with whooping 106 cars, all models, not just Model S. Marketshare: 0.0%, down from 0.1%, sales in April down 46%, Q1 Sales down 36%.
Which is the worst performance of all brands available here by quite the margin....

Well, that is just Germany, lets have a look at the whole EU:

from: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten ... verkaeufe/

What, that super amazing brand Tesla doesn´t even make the top 20? In the meantime Mercede Benz announced 60 month of consecutive sales records in March: http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/ ... d=33930755

Volkswagen ended last year with a sales record, beating Toyota in being the biggest car manufacturer worldwide, again:
http://www.dw.com/en/volkswagen-group-a ... a-42177892

BMW had the best 1st Quarter ever: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/transp ... nd-profits

Tesla on the other hand burned 2 Billion US$ for a puny output of 100k cars, that is what.... 18% of the turnover? If the cars are so great, how come they can´t sell them at break even costs?

best regards
Thomas

Redd · Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

AA747123 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
AA747123 wrote:

I reckon he would make it illegal to drive one, and if you do then plan on checking into the grey bar hotel for a long time.

Is that something you'd support?

if that is the decision that is made by our commander in chief we are required to honor and obey it.

Is that sarcasm?

Redd · Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:07 am

tommy1808 wrote:
behind Chinese shitcar builder Ssangyong with whooping 106 cars,

Tesla on the other hand burned 2 Billion US$ for a puny output of 100k cars, that is what.... 18% of the turnover? If the cars are so great, how come they can´t sell them at break even costs?

best regards
Thomas

Ssangyong is Korean not Chinese....

And yes Tesla does make a great car. The best all electric in the world. Now from your posts I can tell you're not daft so I'm sure you understand what it's like to be the first to bring a product to market, the investment involved, and the amount of infrastructure needed to make Tesla cars a viable option for consumers.

Not to mention the performance of the bloody things is mind blowing, if you still don't like Tesla's take a ride in a Model S in Insane Mode..... You'll be converted

. I don't own a Tesla b/c the infrastructure in Poland is still crap. But once I can get anywhere and have a supercharger handy I'll be buying a used one.

tommy1808 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:08 am

Redd wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

Is that something you'd support?

if that is the decision that is made by our commander in chief we are required to honor and obey it.

Is that sarcasm?

Nah, just 80 years outdated philosophy, and that is needed, because otherwise the whole "The president can't break laws" non-sense only works in that context.
It is basically the outgrow of "the president is above the law and therefore is the law" non-sense, that no innocent person ever needed.

Best regards
Thomas

JJJ · Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:24 pm

Redd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
behind Chinese shitcar builder Ssangyong with whooping 106 cars,

Tesla on the other hand burned 2 Billion US$ for a puny output of 100k cars, that is what.... 18% of the turnover? If the cars are so great, how come they can´t sell them at break even costs?

best regards
Thomas

Ssangyong is Korean not Chinese....

And yes Tesla does make a great car. The best all electric in the world. Now from your posts I can tell you're not daft so I'm sure you understand what it's like to be the first to bring a product to market, the investment involved, and the amount of infrastructure needed to make Tesla cars a viable option for consumers.

Not to mention the performance of the bloody things is mind blowing, if you still don't like Tesla's take a ride in a Model S in Insane Mode..... You'll be converted . I don't own a Tesla b/c the infrastructure in Poland is still crap. But once I can get anywhere and have a supercharger handy I'll be buying a used one.

Tesla will end as a brand for GM or some other high-profile manufacturer. Might even be European.

Mark my words.

tommy1808 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:37 pm

JJJ wrote:
Tesla will end as a brand for GM or some other high-profile manufacturer. Might even be European.

Mark my words.

I am not that sure, Daimler and Toyota sold their shares after getting a good look into Tesla. Mercedes even had a Smart ForTwo with the Tesla Roadstar drive train. And then went on to develop their own Smart Fortwo ED.
Then again, other car companies don´t tend to subsidize their sales and try to make money with their cars.

I wouldn´t be surprised if someone ends up buying the company wholesale, and then slowly phases out the brand. I also wouldn´t be surprised if Tesla turns out to be more of a Ponzi scheme than a business at some point. And looking at their tiny R&D Budget their technology advantage doesn´t seem all that big, their total R&D spending is smaller than what Honda spends in a single year, and they just spend about half of what Toyota or Volkswagen do.

best regards
Thomas

JJJ · Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:27 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Tesla will end as a brand for GM or some other high-profile manufacturer. Might even be European.

Mark my words.

I am not that sure, Daimler and Toyota sold their shares after getting a good look into Tesla. Mercedes even had a Smart ForTwo with the Tesla Roadstar drive train. And then went on to develop their own Smart Fortwo ED.
Then again, other car companies don´t tend to subsidize their sales and try to make money with their cars.

I wouldn´t be surprised if someone ends up buying the company wholesale, and then slowly phases out the brand. I also wouldn´t be surprised if Tesla turns out to be more of a Ponzi scheme than a business at some point. And looking at their tiny R&D Budget their technology advantage doesn´t seem all that big, their total R&D spending is smaller than what Honda spends in a single year, and they just spend about half of what Toyota or Volkswagen do.

best regards
Thomas

The brand is valuable, it's become a halo brand in record time, that's an asset. The self-driving technology is below par, but the battery part of the business might be worth looking into as well. Anyone wanting to sell electric cars in the US will appreciate having the Tesla badge.

Daimler and Toyota divested a long time ago, before it became the niche player it is today.

It is bleeding cash at a record rate though so unless there's a big capital raise coming the post-bankruptcy table will be an interesting sight to see.

tommy1808 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:57 pm

JJJ wrote:
The brand is valuable, it's become a halo brand in record time, that's an asset.

i think it is probably much more halo then real. It is cool, they look awesome on Top Gear and such, but if you look closer, build quality is 1980´s at best. The only one i got to drive though is the Model X, but that was build worse than my 1991 Polo was (ok, not that much in it to do bad) and while nice at low speeds, beyond 120kmh give or take, all you hear is gear and wind noise from the mirrors). And that was more a "really" test drive

I think the brand halo will be gone shortly past 2020, when the big competition has conveniently outspend Tesla on R&D by quite a margin, make drive trains just as good, but already know how to build cars. And believe it or not, many of them have been working on e-mobility since about 1973, they just never saw enough reason to enter that market for real. For disclosure, StreetScooter is my employers customer, not that they compete with Tesla, but their vehicles also run on electricity.

I think if looking back in a few decades "Tesla" will be used in discussions that also include the Tucker 48.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:11 pm

Redd wrote:
Ssangyong is Korean not Chinese....

Uops....

And yes Tesla does make a great car. The best all electric in the world. Now from your posts I can tell you're not daft so I'm sure you understand what it's like to be the first to bring a product to market, the investment involved, and the amount of infrastructure needed to make Tesla cars a viable option for consumers.

As a PM i unterstand that quite well in deed. I am not denying they make a good and amazing performing car, I am just saying everything else but the drive train/batteries isn't up to snuff, and they don't have remotely the resources to keep that lead.

Not to mention the performance of the bloody things is mind blowing, if you still don't like Tesla's take a ride in a Model S in Insane Mode..... You'll be converted .

I don't think it will be that much different from the model X. So obviously that doesn't convert me. Especially not if the acoustics take me 3 cars back...

I don't own a Tesla b/c the infrastructure in Poland is still crap. But once I can get anywhere and have a supercharger handy I'll be buying a used one.

Smart move, you don't often see your car subsidised by a private company.

Best regards
Thomas

mham001 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

best regards
Thomas

You went to an extraordinary amount of trouble to prove what I said WRONG but it is all just FUD. Why would we compare sales of Tesla with Ssangyong? Or a Model S with the entire VW lineup? Or Ford? And only look at one month???

Perhaps you'd like to be more accurate and compare sales of similar size and cost over a longer period of time? Maybe not, things won't look too good. And then there is China, which the Germans are relying on heavily, but Tesla has just pioneered Chinese acquiescence to sole-ownership factories. I'd look for some very significant changes in those sales numbers as Tesla ramps up there too. Word I hear, you aren't anybody in China anymore if you don't drive a Tesla...and wait for Model 3 - they are already eating the lunch of the bread-and-butter 3 Series in the US, this is huge.

And of course, failed to mention the new "Tesla" law being strictly enforced in Germany outlawing new Tesla Super Chargers. Oh no, that is not "protectionism"....haha.

Nick Gibbs
Automotive News Europe
February 20, 2018 06:01 CET
Germany's premium brands are under pressure to accelerate their plans for electric cars after Tesla's Model S outsold the luxury flagships of Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi in Europe for the first time.

European sales of the Model S outstripped German premium brands' range-topping sedans including the Mercedes S class and BMW 7 series.

Sales of the Model S in Europe jumped 30 percent to 16,132 last year, according to JATO. Mercedes S class sales grew 3 percent to 13,359. BMW 7 series had sales of 11,735, down 13 percent.

In the U.S., Model S sales rose 9 percent to 28,800 last year, outselling closest rivals, the Cadillac XTS, whose volume fell 27 percent to 16,275 and the S class, whose sales were down 16 percent to 15,888, according to Automotive News Data Center.

Tesla is competing strongly in Europe's large premium SUV market with the Model X. Its sales in the region last year were 12,000, about the same as the Porsche Cayenne and nearly 2,000 more than the BMW X6, according to JATO data.
http://europe.autonews.com/article/2018 ... -in-europe

To be fair, the Germans are not the only ones who have been denigrating electrics and Tesla. Now they are beginning to wake up.

BTW, Tesla does not show profit because they are constantly reinvesting. They have already shown however that they do indeed make profit on production.

tommy1808 wrote:
As a PM i unterstand that quite well in deed. I am not denying they make a good and amazing performing car, I am just saying everything else but the drive train/batteries isn't up to snuff, and they don't have remotely the resources to keep that lead.

What exactly do you believe is "not up to snuff?

tommy1808 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:53 pm

mham001 wrote:
Why would we compare sales of Tesla with Ssangyong? Or a Model S with the entire VW lineup? Or Ford? And only look at one month???

About as useful as comparing numbers between car makes that offer you few choices to spend 100k on a car, and those that offer you a bunch. Mercedes alone has 9 basemodels that start above 70k EUR.

And of course, failed to mention the new "Tesla" law being strictly enforced in Germany outlawing new Tesla Super Chargers. Oh no, that is not "protectionism"....haha.
.

Because it ain't true... easy as that.
1. That is an EU regulation, we where just quick to make it into national law, it is the law in all of Europe.
2. Tesla is in no way banned to set up as many supercharger as they like. They just have to stop their illegal business practices in operating them.

Best regards
Thomas

mham001 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:53 pm

CCGPV wrote:

I don't have any foes here. I love all the discussions. It brings the forum to a higher more enjoyable level for everyone.

I am quite sure more than one person here does not in any way find the current discourse a "discussion". It is exactly what many here complain about in non-av, nothing more than insulting one-liners with zero merit.

"Enjoyable for everyone"? One of the more classic self-delusions I've read on awhile. I have only two Foes, the other does not participate in this section, so this is not a matter of tuning out differing opinions, but shutting out unnecessary noise. Might have to add yours too if you keep this up.

mham001 · Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Because it ain't true... easy as that.
1. That is an EU regulation, we where just quick to make it into national law, it is the law in all of Europe.
2. Tesla is in no way banned to set up as many supercharger as they like. They just have to stop their illegal business practices in operating them.

Best regards
Thomas

An EU law pushed by Germany and only apparently being enforced in Germany. Note, setting up proprietary charging stations on private property solely for the use of one's customers was not an "illegal business practice" until the German manufacturers suddenly felt threatened by Tesla. Protectionism all the way.

I am still interested in exactly what part of the drivetrain do you feel is not "up to snuff".

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