Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
ltbewr wrote:Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.
BUNNIK, Netherlands – An international team of investigators said Thursday that detailed analysis of video images and photos has unequivocally established that the Buk missile that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine nearly four years ago came from a Russia-based military unit, the clearest link yet published by the team to the involvement of Russian military in the deadly missile strike.
Prosecutors said they have presented their findings to Moscow and are seeking answers, but so far have not received a response. The international team running the criminal investigation appealed for help from witnesses who can testify about the involvement of the Russian military’s 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in the city of Kursk.
Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Joint Investigation Team, or JIT, is not yet ready to name suspects, but added: “I can say that we are now entering the … last phase of the investigation. When we will be ready, it’ is not possible to say at the moment because there is still a lot of work to do.”
cougar15 wrote:There is no comparison with KAL 007. Kal007 was violating their airspace.Not he first time, … KAL007 anyone?
salttee wrote:It's breaking news that the Dutch JIT has just figured out what anyone with a bit of knowledge of military practice / behavior and who took the time to look into the incident knew almost four years ago? Maybe the slow drip is their preferred PR strategy, but I think they should be embarrassed at publishing this finding in 2018.
Kikko19 wrote:ltbewr wrote:Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.
there's already plenty of sanctions against russia, next step is attacking them militarily, are you ready for it?
petertenthije wrote:There was just a live press conference on Dutch TV by the JIT...
musman9853 wrote:Toppling Assad would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. Because the Russians are pigs we should get ourselves bogged down in the ME supporting the Israeli expansion program?Topple assad, wean the EU of russian gas, etc.
salttee wrote:musman9853 wrote:Toppling Assad would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. Because the Russians are pigs we should get ourselves bogged down in the ME supporting the Israeli expansion program?Topple assad, wean the EU of russian gas, etc.
Hell, if you want to go that way why not invade Iraq again?
Dutchy wrote:What's the difference Dutchy? Now that the whole thing has blown over, the Dutch stick their nose out? Nothing will come of this.There is a difference between proofing something and know something, now it has been proven. Good thing the prosecutor's office don\t jump to conclusions. There might be a cultural difference as well, the Dutch prosecutor is deemed to seek the truth, not just to build a case, like in America.
salttee wrote:Dutchy wrote:What's the difference Dutchy? Now that the whole thing has blown over, the Dutch stick their nose out? Nothing will come of this.There is a difference between proofing something and know something, now it has been proven. Good thing the prosecutor's office don\t jump to conclusions. There might be a cultural difference as well, the Dutch prosecutor is deemed to seek the truth, not just to build a case, like in America.
Kikko19 wrote:The German people have gotten along fine for the last couple of thousand years without the northern pipe line, I don't see why they can't at least wait until Russia has another change of management.abouh the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?
Dutchy wrote:Do you realize that you have just said absolutely nothing?The difference is, as I understand it, the Dutch prosecutors are compelled to research in alternative theories and offer evidence to the innocence of the people whom they are prosecuting. And if they still feel they have a case, they can bring it to court or the judge to weigh the evidence. I think something will come out of this, either to have a court case where the accused is absent, or it will take place in 15 years or so, like the Libyan case.
salttee wrote:Dutchy wrote:Do you realize that you have just said absolutely nothing?The difference is, as I understand it, the Dutch prosecutors are compelled to research in alternative theories and offer evidence to the innocence of the people whom they are prosecuting. And if they still feel they have a case, they can bring it to court or the judge to weigh the evidence. I think something will come out of this, either to have a court case where the accused is absent, or it will take place in 15 years or so, like the Libyan case.
aircatalonia wrote:No I do not. MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
aircatalonia wrote:Ok so Russia's involvement is clear now. Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
salttee wrote:MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.
salttee wrote:Sure, last 2000 years using their own gas... well i remember exactly somebody needing the "lebensraum". but maybe i'm just reading other booksKikko19 wrote:The German people have gotten along fine for the last couple of thousand years without the northern pipe line, I don't see why they can't at least wait until Russia has another change of management.abouh the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?
ltbewr wrote:Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target.
flyingturtle wrote:Breaking news...
It was first assumed (also here on a.nut) that Russia handed over some missiles and a launcher to rebels, who then used the deadly apparatus in a hillbilly way. The TELAR does have a radar, but not one that can properly distinguish targets.
Now there is evidence that the Buk missiles were part of a Russian convoy. It was not operated/kept by pro-Russian rebels: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402
David
Loew wrote:flyingturtle wrote:Breaking news...
It was first assumed (also here on a.nut) that Russia handed over some missiles and a launcher to rebels, who then used the deadly apparatus in a hillbilly way. The TELAR does have a radar, but not one that can properly distinguish targets.
Now there is evidence that the Buk missiles were part of a Russian convoy. It was not operated/kept by pro-Russian rebels: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402
David
This is hardly a surprise, since BUK or any SAM system for that matter, is rather complicated to operate. Therefore it is not possible to just slam few guys inside, you found on the street yesterday, and tell them to shoot down enemy planes. Years of training are needed. So, what you need are actual soldiers, trained on the system to operate it, therefore in this case russian soldiers. From a political perspective these news put public pressure onto some EU member states governments which are openly talking about lifting sanctions against Russia, that are currently in place.
aircatalonia wrote:Ok so Russia's involvement is clear now. Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
flyingturtle wrote:I don't know at what level the decision was taken, but somebody among the Russians decided to take down an airliner. MH-17 was at 33,000 feet, that was not something that would have gone unnoticed by the TELAR operator. And if you think the TELAR operator was anything but a Russian soldier from the 53rd air defense Brigade, I have a bridge to sell you.salttee wrote:They *intentionally* shot down an aircraft, which they thought to be an Ukrainian plane.But they *accidentally* hit MH17.MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.
vhtje wrote:One answer to that is that somebody wanted the border war with Ukraine to heat up to a full scale war which would bring Ukraine back under Russian control and show those whimps in the west who is who.why would Russia do this?
NZ321 wrote:How would a guy in a radar van know what color a plane 20 miles away and eight miles high was?I would say that MH aircraft belly and underside was painted a fairly dark shade of grey at that time. Maybe somebody who made the call did not have sufficient training and it was a mistaken identification but either way they have to take responsibility and I am not condoning it for a minute. Will surely be interesting to see how this unfolds.
salttee wrote:vhtje wrote:One answer to that is that somebody wanted the border war with Ukraine to heat up to a full scale war which would bring Ukraine back under Russian control and show those whimps in the west who is who.why would Russia do this?
The Americans did something similar in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Waterbomber wrote:Did it? I don't know that it had any effect on the Russian border war. Another answer would be that somebody miscalculated.Well then why has it had the opposite effect?
NZ321 wrote:I would say that MH aircraft belly and underside was painted a fairly dark shade of grey at that time. Maybe somebody who made the call did not have sufficient training and it was a mistaken identification but either way they have to take responsibility and I am not condoning it for a minute. Will surely be interesting to see how this unfolds.
sturmovik wrote:For those asking how/why Russia would do it, may I suggest reading up on IR 655? Far more appropriate comparison than KAL007 imo.
Waterbomber wrote:And even if at the end of the day, they can prove that it was a Russian army finger that pulled the trigger, they still need to prove intent to kill innocent civilians rather than this being a collateral accident of a civil war.
They would also need to prove that the order came from higher hierarchy, at least a general, for the Russian government to be held accountable.
After all it could be a trigger happy soldier acting without orders, who would also have to explain himself in a military court in Russia.
salttee wrote:Waterbomber wrote:Did it? I don't know that it had any effect on the Russian border war. Another answer would be that somebody miscalculated.Well then why has it had the opposite effect?
RJWNL wrote:Waterbomber wrote:And even if at the end of the day, they can prove that it was a Russian army finger that pulled the trigger, they still need to prove intent to kill innocent civilians rather than this being a collateral accident of a civil war.
They would also need to prove that the order came from higher hierarchy, at least a general, for the Russian government to be held accountable.
After all it could be a trigger happy soldier acting without orders, who would also have to explain himself in a military court in Russia.
In Dutch criminal law there is also such a thing as recklessness so even if there was no intention to kill innocent civilians, those responsible can still be convicted for the 298 fault murder they committed. At the moment it is the JIT that has the evidence and is building the case. The Russian state is doing nothing but spreading lies while they have a lot of explaining to do. Besides even if the intent was to shoot down a Ukrainian plane, that would still be a crime so there can be absolutely no excuse.
fpetrutiu wrote:It bears mentioning that the TELAR was parked almost directly under the intersections of three airway routes.they should have known that it could very well be a commercial aircraft or at least that there was a very good chance that it was. It was on a published route, in an airspace above the closed one that was used by commercial aviation. That should have deemed it necessary for further authentication efforts on the 121.5 GUARD frequency that is internationally recognized or other means of identification.
Waterbomber wrote:Dutch criminal law has no jurisdiction for a death on a Malaysia registered aircraft downed over Ukrainian territory.
Recklessness or in legal terms, gross negligence, also has to be proven, easier said than done.
MH17 should be used as an opportunity to bring people and nations together, not divide even more resulting in even more potential loss of life. I'm an idealist, obviously.
salttee wrote:I don't know at what level the decision was taken, but somebody among the Russians decided to take down an airliner.
salttee wrote:MH-17 was at 33,000 feet, that was not something that would have gone unnoticed by the TELAR operator.
salttee wrote:Your claim that "they thought (MH-17) to be an Ukrainian plane" is something that originates in your own head. There is nothing to support it, except your denial of the facts as they are known.