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tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
hansschmulke wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Russia should just punish the people in question & say so out loud. Otherwise this thing is going to go on for a long time. Just punish the drunk dumb bastards & pay restitution to the families of those involved. How bloody hard is that?

Of course it's going to go on for a long time. Moreover, by now the JIT has no credibility whatsoever in Russian professional Air Defense circles. There are reasons to that, which can be boiled down to 'what they are saying on this or that crucial issue does not make any sense, or seems just wrong'.


So mister, quite a bold statement, could you provide some proof or is it just you demanding proof and you don't have to deliver any? Frankly, I don't care what the suspect things about the institution investigating them.


i wonder if he is talking about the same "Russian professional Air Defense circles" that held a press conference with a bogus, faked SU-25 radar track?

If they thought the JIT is credible, that would be a bad sign........

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
JIT made a press announcement that it was a Russian missile for sure. How hard is that to understand?


see:
https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-cras ... riminal-0/

JIT language does not go beyond "convinced".
They do not have proof. faint circumstantial evidence perhaps.

JIT then isn't a dutch legal entity either.
It is an international kangaroo court assembled in the Netherlands ( afaics ).
It is a bit rich to associate the JIT with alleged high standards of the Dutch legal system.
( like those garbage housing credits that were peddled by help of the rating level the bank held.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
JIT made a press announcement that it was a Russian missile for sure. How hard is that to understand?


see:
https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-cras ... riminal-0/

JIT language does not go beyond "convinced".
They do not have proof. faint circumstantial evidence perhaps.

JIT then isn't a dutch legal entity either.
It is an international kangaroo court assembled in the Netherlands ( afaics ).
It is a bit rich to associate the JIT with alleged high standards of the Dutch legal system.
( like those garbage housing credits that were peddled by help of the rating level the bank held.)



Whatever, everybody knows why you are saying these things.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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hansschmulke
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yup, you are beating the Russian troll army drum. JIT made a press announcement that it was a Russian missile for sure. How hard is that to understand? If you take this conclusion not on face value, fine, but disprove the JIT otherwise take these independent prosecutors on face value and we will see in court what happens. You have no credibility whatsoever, just creating an account to post in this thread to cast some doubts.

You're making it sound like press conference is a court of law and speaker of the JIT was testifying under oath, presenting and defending final conclusions of investigation. Neither of the aforementioned is true, JIT cannot be held legally responsible for any amount of bullshit they're spewing in form of aired 'updates in criminal investigation'. There is no reason whatsoever to believe anything that comes from that particular source unless it is backed with substantial evidence made available for independent evaluation, the results of which match conclusions of the JIT. Before you ask, as of yet they failed to provide even a single valid reason not to dismiss their claims right off the bat simply due to a lack of evidence.

As to 'casting some doubts', blessed is the mind too small to doubt. Just saying.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:43 pm

hansschmulke wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yup, you are beating the Russian troll army drum. JIT made a press announcement that it was a Russian missile for sure. How hard is that to understand? If you take this conclusion not on face value, fine, but disprove the JIT otherwise take these independent prosecutors on face value and we will see in court what happens. You have no credibility whatsoever, just creating an account to post in this thread to cast some doubts.

You're making it sound like press conference is a court of law and speaker of the JIT was testifying under oath, presenting and defending final conclusions of investigation. Neither of the aforementioned is true, JIT cannot be held legally responsible for any amount of bullshit they're spewing in form of aired 'updates in criminal investigation'. There is no reason whatsoever to believe anything that comes from that particular source unless it is backed with substantial evidence made available for independent evaluation, the results of which match conclusions of the JIT. Before you ask, as of yet they failed to provide even a single valid reason not to dismiss their claims right off the bat simply due to a lack of evidence.

As to 'casting some doubts', blessed is the mind too small to doubt. Just saying.


Whatever, believe the Russians then, they have been cooperating and telling the truth from the beginning, right? BTW are you going to tell us why you are here and just posting in this particular threat?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:21 pm

I resent this thread being turned into another of the constant back and forth bickering marathons.
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

RT = Russia Today = Propaganda from the Kremlin. Enough said.


RT quoted from AFP, which means Agence France-Presse, me 6 you 0


Framing is an art for RT. Look at the difference between the Nu.nl article I posted about the possible accusation from the Dutch government against Ukraine and what Russia Today writes about it. That's why RT isn't media, they are a propaganda channel for Putin and everybody knows that and that's why they aren't taken seriously except someone whom shares the agenda of RT.


In your mind RT is propaganda but there are more people who prefer the news given by RT than that given by most fake western media propaganda machines yours included. In fact all RT does is broadcast stories that msm don't or won't show. But if you believe the likes of CNN who said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then that's your indaba. If you believe the BBC that said Russia poisoned the Skripals then why has it been proven to be fake like the so called gas attacks in Syria?

You say western media are independant - ha, maybe you should go and check up just who owns the western media - me thinks you will be surprised that it is only one or two people.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:46 am

Balerit wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Balerit wrote:

RT quoted from AFP, which means Agence France-Presse, me 6 you 0


Framing is an art for RT. Look at the difference between the Nu.nl article I posted about the possible accusation from the Dutch government against Ukraine and what Russia Today writes about it. That's why RT isn't media, they are a propaganda channel for Putin and everybody knows that and that's why they aren't taken seriously except someone whom shares the agenda of RT.


In your mind RT is propaganda


That is not in his mind, that is the official purpose of RT. Alexei Gromow called it that, Margarita Simonjan called it the Kremlin department of defence, and, paraphrasing, that Russia wouldn't need it in Peace time, but it would be crucial in war and that you don't start building an army a week before the war.

So you have the guy that had the idea for it on record that it is propaganda, and you have the editor in Chief describe it as a tool to prepare for coming wars.

If you believe RT, you have to believe it is a propaganda station, because it is RT saying it. Loud and public.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Reinhardt
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 am

Balerit wrote:
In your mind RT is propaganda but there are more people who prefer the news given by RT than that given by most fake western media propaganda machines yours included.


It's widely recognised in the West, RT is part of Putins PR machine which is why it's being monitored very closely and on the verge of loosing transmission licenses. The Tin foil hat brigade, flat earthers probably lap it up, but the informed, intelligent among us can watch and see what it is for ourselves. In the UK they tried to legitimise it by employing ex BBC and Sky broadcasters. Those who had any sensibility about them have left. Al Jarerzza did the same.

Balerit wrote:
In fact all RT does is broadcast stories that msm don't or won't show.

Usually it's for good reason they don't broadcast them, because they are false or altered to fit the Putin narrative.

Balerit wrote:
If you believe the BBC that said Russia poisoned the Skripals then why has it been proven to be fake like the so called gas attacks in Syria?

It hasn't proven to be fake at all. The Skripals haven't been abducted, they were poisoned and most international experts, except Russian, agreed who did it and where the chemicals came from.
The gas attacks in Syria happened, the UN acknowledges it. Only two possibly parties could have carried them out, and neither of those parties were the UK or US.

Balerit wrote:
You say western media are independant - ha, maybe you should go and check up just who owns the western media - me thinks you will be surprised that it is only one or two people.

Many of us in the West fully know who owns what and what their agenda is. Print media for example in the UK is hugely corrupt and luckily their circulation numbers are going so low before long they will have to cease business. However TV stations like the BBC are world renown for their objectivity. I don't agree with their reporting on Brexit for example but they are a trusted news source.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
I suppose they didn't expect exposure that fast.


I expect them that they were going to be fully exposed when they decided to go on live TV to tell all. But that is just a guess. ;)


All this "story" is - just imbeciles staging a comedy show. It's just something they do, one of their traits. Just like a 4 year old can sometimes show a tongue. A healthy ordinary adult individual doesn't look for any reasoning, any rationale, or guess anything there.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:57 am

Dutchy wrote:

As I said before, the JIT didn't say produced, they said owned by the Russian military, so it says everything. It implicates Russia in this tragedy directly, for the first time. That's why the Dutch and Australian government have held Russia responsible.

So you are flat wrong to think that the JIT said the missile was produced in Russia, that is of non-importance of course.


All JIT could prove so far is that the missile parts of which they had in their possession is made in 1986 in USSR. Nothing else. There is no new evidence of anything really either, just as there never was. Australian and Dutch government simply have to hold someone accountable at this point - it's been too long and too shady.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
Like the article says: it was a Russian military missile, that is the conclusion of the JIT and that clearly points to Russia, don't you think. Russia is responsible for its part in the downing of MH17. The only question is how big this responsibility is, if Russian military man did push the button or under their responsibility.


Yeah, just like the article says. JIT's conclusion somehow points to Russia, while the actual evidence that JIT has doesn't. Conclusively doesn't at least.
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:03 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
I suppose they didn't expect exposure that fast.


I expect them that they were going to be fully exposed when they decided to go on live TV to tell all. But that is just a guess. ;)


All this "story" is - just imbeciles staging a comedy show. It's just something they do, one of their traits. Just like a 4 year old can sometimes show a tongue. A healthy ordinary adult individual doesn't look for any reasoning, any rationale, or guess anything there.


The "dead journalist" was seen alive.
There was no way around inventing another layer of lies to wrap the "russia killed .." thing.
Thus the "live TV" thing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:39 pm

Relatives of the murdered stated a silent protest at the Russian Embassy in The Hague, calling on Putin to work with the JIT.

Relatives MH17 places 298 empty seats for Russian embassy

In a silent protest for the Russian embassy in The Hague, the relatives of the victims of the MH17 flight have placed 298 empty seats in front of the embassy building. They believe that Russia is training the investigation into the air disaster with false statements and holding away witnesses.


Image

In Dutch: https://nos.nl/artikel/2235639-nabestaa ... ssade.html

Quite impressive to see a sea of empty seats.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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hansschmulke
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
Whatever, believe the Russians then, they have been cooperating and telling the truth from the beginning, right? BTW are you going to tell us why you are here and just posting in this particular threat?

I don't believe, the God provided me with brain of my own — i'm perfectly willing to apply it to develop my own opinion on the matters i find interesting. These days no one can be implicitly trusted regardless of affiliation, credentials or displayed output of sheer conviction that he or she is right. Trust me, I know what i'm talking about ;)

Seriously though, as I already told you right from the start of this discussion, in modern times reasonable individual should not neglect his mental hygiene, lest he would wake one day being very sure that the Earth, in fact, is flat. Not sure what's your opinion on this, but i personally find such perspective quite unappealing. Besides the myriad of other benefits, adherence to this -admittedly unsolicited- advice will help you develop a valuable skill of giving zero fucks about loud claims of whatever kind and focusing on actions of the claimant, his allies and associates. Despite all the attempts of the upper management of this investigation to pull an owl over a dirigible and somehow connect Russian Military to this mess regardless of the evidence they have on hand, actual investigation is progressing in the right direction.

Just out of curiousity, care to give me your best guess, what MH17 and Georgia have in common? 8-)

On the side note, I have to admit that I find it very amusing when people that do not know two shits about the subject find it appropriate to ridicule what is being said by Russian side, because apparently it's nonsense, trolling, misinformation, et cetera, outrageous bullshit all around. Everybody lies, Russians are no exception, but rabid ignorants that have no clue how the missiles fly IMO should STFU and go familiarize themselves with topic of discussion before attempting to partake in it. As you have probably already guessed, i'm talking about the 'ridiculous' Russian claim about the alleged involvement of Ukrainian combat aircraft in the MH17 Disaster.

Contrary to misconception that is popular among the less than knowledgeable individuals, this version(and it was actually a version, one among many) was backed with substantial amount of actual evidence. Specifically,
a. Tracking logs of a number of long-range surveillance radars.
b. Material evidence, including but not limited to bits and pieces of the SAM missile that took down MH17.
c. Intelligence reports. According to vetted and long since proven sufficiently reliable source of relevant RUMINT, Russian Military Intelligence found out that the Ukrainian SAM unit will be deployed in the area, its composition, strength, deployment areas, et cetera even before the Commanding Officer of said SAM unit, including the intel on why they are deployed and what they are supposed to be doing.
d. Testimonies of eye-witnesses.
e. Other means, either minor and/or unknown to me.

So, how this 'Ukrainian Su-25 shot down MH17' version came to be?

It is well-known that after it was hit by surface-to-air missile MH17 broke apart during the uncontrollable descend leaving behind a cloud of falling debris, some of which was radio reflective. Some of the falling parts of Boeing-777 were mistakenly classified as aircraft by long-range surveillance radar of unknown type that was deployed on Russian territory. Put simply, it was a false alarm that happened in very inappropriate time. Before the Dutch investigators even begun figuring out how to approach solving all this shitshow, Russian professional community already determined that the missile was manufactured in 1985-86 by identifying and tracking down surviving electronic components of the missile. Fun fact, a number of the identified components DO NOT BELONG to original design of 9M38 of any modification. Moreover, they were never used in ground- or ship-based SAM; rather, the components in question were used in certain Soviet air-to-air missiles, particularly in R-23 and R-60. 156th SA Missile Regiment of Ukrainian Armed Forces was deployed in the area at the time of incident, it was actively maneuvering and running various drills, including providing of the combat support to friendly combat aircraft, which also weren't idle. Throw in the reports of the people on the ground and voila, this is how the whole theory about Su-25 shooting down MH17 was born.

Just in case it's not quite clear what i'm trying to convey, point being: no matter how ridiculous this version looks to ignorant observer, it wasn't just conjured from nothing by Russians just for shits and giggles. Developing, testing and discarding the invalid hypotheses is just how investigations work.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:19 am

hansschmulke wrote:
Just out of curiousity, care to give me your best guess, what MH17 and Georgia have in common? 8-)


Both got screwed by Russia meddling in affairs it did not belong to.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
hansschmulke wrote:
Just out of curiousity, care to give me your best guess, what MH17 and Georgia have in common? 8-)


Both got screwed by Russia meddling in affairs it did not belong to.


Come on, don't be so harsh. He needs to make a living too.

Even after a conviction we will have people using the same script, claiming they made up their own mind, for decades to come.
I do hope your country finds a way to extradite those responsible with or without Russian cooperation. If not, using nerve gas is acceptable to the Russian government.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Relatives of the murdered stated a silent protest at the Russian Embassy in The Hague, calling on Putin to work with the JIT.

Relatives MH17 places 298 empty seats for Russian embassy

In a silent protest for the Russian embassy in The Hague, the relatives of the victims of the MH17 flight have placed 298 empty seats in front of the embassy building. They believe that Russia is training the investigation into the air disaster with false statements and holding away witnesses.


Image

In Dutch: https://nos.nl/artikel/2235639-nabestaa ... ssade.html

Quite impressive to see a sea of empty seats.

The action is specifically aimed at arousing emotions. I wonder why they did not hold this action at the Embassy of Ukraine or the United States? Ukraine has not closed the airspace over the combat zone, which resulted in the collapse of MH17. The United States supported the illegal coup in Ukraine, resulting in the Donbass war began.
At the same time, when even after 4 years no evidence was found confirming the guilt of Russia, for some reason these chairs were placed at the Russian Embassy.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:09 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Relatives of the murdered stated a silent protest at the Russian Embassy in The Hague, calling on Putin to work with the JIT.

Relatives MH17 places 298 empty seats for Russian embassy

In a silent protest for the Russian embassy in The Hague, the relatives of the victims of the MH17 flight have placed 298 empty seats in front of the embassy building. They believe that Russia is training the investigation into the air disaster with false statements and holding away witnesses.


Image

In Dutch: https://nos.nl/artikel/2235639-nabestaa ... ssade.html

Quite impressive to see a sea of empty seats.

The action is specifically aimed at arousing emotions. I wonder why they did not hold this action at the Embassy of Ukraine or the United States? Ukraine has not closed the airspace over the combat zone, which resulted in the collapse of MH17. The United States supported the illegal coup in Ukraine, resulting in the Donbass war began.
At the same time, when even after 4 years no evidence was found confirming the guilt of Russia, for some reason these chairs were placed at the Russian Embassy.


All whataboutisms. The missile belonged to Russian stocks, Russia is involved in this. Russia has been less than open. This demonstration by people whom lost a loved one is at the correct place.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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ITMercure
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:53 pm

Well Mr Scorpius, the whole point of this thread is that the joint investigation team (an independant body from a well known an true democracy without any past or present agenda against Russia), released their latest findings which point out to évidences that a russian missile, from a russian brigade, operating from an area under pro-russian control, in the airspace of which some ukrainian aircraft had been shot down at high altitude by same missiles the days before, shot down MH17.
That Ukraine was maybe negligent on its side, doesn't spread the responsability of the shooting itself, which I think everyone with comon sense would call a crime.
 
Scorpius
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:58 pm

ITMercure wrote:
Well Mr Scorpius, the whole point of this thread is that the joint investigation team (an independant body from a well known an true democracy without any past or present agenda against Russia), released their latest findings which point out to évidences that a russian missile, from a russian brigade, operating from an area under pro-russian control, in the airspace of which some ukrainian aircraft had been shot down at high altitude by same missiles the days before, shot down MH17.
That Ukraine was maybe negligent on its side, doesn't spread the responsability of the shooting itself, which I think everyone with comon sense would call a crime.

I have already said here - ALL rocket complexes "BUK" was released in Russia. They were not produced anywhere except Russia. So this part of your message is Captain Obvious.

But to the question of the alleged belonging of this rocket to the Russian army - no evidence of this statement was not presented. Moreover, I also wrote about it earlier - don't even match the issue date represented by parts of the rocket that passes for evidence. Also, the missile's debris doesn't look like parts that fell from a height of 32,000 feet. This, as well as the fact that NO information is provided on where the missile details were found and how they were obtained, leads to the conclusion that the press conference under discussion is another attempt to fabricate the evidence in such a way as to accuse Russia of the MH17 disaster.
At the JIT press conference, once again no facts were presented. Only populist statements and loud headlines are all that is still there, four years after the tragedy.
Just someone who really wants to present the case so that the blame turned out to be Russian. Although Russia in this case is the victim of unfounded accusations party. Actually, all we need to know about the "Western justice" - is to choose someone to the role of the guilty, to connect the media, and fabricate evidence. We have not seen any attempts to understand the situation with the crash of MH17 from the so-called JIT.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Relatives of the murdered stated a silent protest at the Russian Embassy in The Hague, calling on Putin to work with the JIT.

Relatives MH17 places 298 empty seats for Russian embassy

In a silent protest for the Russian embassy in The Hague, the relatives of the victims of the MH17 flight have placed 298 empty seats in front of the embassy building. They believe that Russia is training the investigation into the air disaster with false statements and holding away witnesses.


Image

In Dutch: https://nos.nl/artikel/2235639-nabestaa ... ssade.html

Quite impressive to see a sea of empty seats.

The action is specifically aimed at arousing emotions. I wonder why they did not hold this action at the Embassy of Ukraine or the United States? Ukraine has not closed the airspace over the combat zone, which resulted in the collapse of MH17. The United States supported the illegal coup in Ukraine, resulting in the Donbass war began.
At the same time, when even after 4 years no evidence was found confirming the guilt of Russia, for some reason these chairs were placed at the Russian Embassy.


Can you please provide evidence that 'the United States supported the illegal coup in Ukraine'. Seems like quite a big and aggressive accusation, so naturally you will provide big and aggressive evidence.

Anyway, it's noteworthy how often the defence is not 'Russia did not do what you accused', the defence is simply 'well Ukraine did this' or 'the United States did that'. The lowest form of argument, requiring no evidence and simply confusing the debate. Try harder.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:43 am

Scorpius wrote:
flags of the symbolism, which was used in the German division of SS " Das Reih", 34th SS Grenadier division "landstorm Nederland" and 4-I panzergrenadiere police division of the SS


Image

Coming from a country where the state owned airline sports communist insignia as part of its logo...
 
Scorpius
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
flags of the symbolism, which was used in the German division of SS " Das Reih", 34th SS Grenadier division "landstorm Nederland" and 4-I panzergrenadiere police division of the SS


Image

Coming from a country where the state owned airline sports communist insignia as part of its logo...

Your attempts to equate communism with Nazism look silly. Communism is the system that saved the whole world from Nazism. In addition, this logo is a tribute to the traditions, as it remains the official logo of the airline since 1933.

Finally, it is very nice that such a notorious Russophobes like you, could only find fault with the logo of the airline. Without a doubt, this is another terrible crime of the Putin regime, lol.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:26 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Communism is the system that saved the whole world from Nazism.
Is that what Russian schoolchildren are taught? Do you also teach them about the pact that Stalin made with Molotov to split Poland between them? If I were you I'd drop the communism part and just credit the Russian people.
 
jordanh
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:20 am

salttee wrote:
I resent this thread being turned into another of the constant back and forth bickering marathons.


Those guys working in the St. Petersburg troll farm have to earn their ruples somewhere.

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
hansschmulke wrote:
Just out of curiousity, care to give me your best guess, what MH17 and Georgia have in common? 8-)

Both got screwed by Russia meddling in affairs it did not belong to.

Come on, don't be so harsh. He needs to make a living too.
Even after a conviction we will have people using the same script, claiming they made up their own mind, for decades to come.
I do hope your country finds a way to extradite those responsible with or without Russian cooperation. If not, using nerve gas is acceptable to the Russian government.
Best regards
Thomas

Nerve gas... radiation poisoning... assassination right outside the Kremlin... no scruples... only ruples... are important to Putin and his cronies.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:43 am

Scorpius wrote:
So, why do you only remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?


Because it was a legal framework that materialized in a joint German-Russian act of war against Poland and which started WW2?
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:36 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
So, why do you only remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?


Because it was a legal framework that materialized in a joint German-Russian act of war against Poland and which started WW2?


:checkmark:
Appeasement and conspiracy to wage war of aggression are two different pairs of shoes. Not that appeasement worked, but it wasn't intended to start a war.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 am

L410Turbolet wrote:

Coming from a country where the state owned airline sports communist insignia as part of its logo...


What's your problem who puts what symbols on their planes? Treat this as a part of recognized brand. You recognized it - the symbol did what it was placed on the plane to do. Regardless what you think of it.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
All whataboutisms. The missile belonged to Russian stocks, Russia is involved in this. Russia has been less than open. This demonstration by people whom lost a loved one is at the correct place.


OK - so they demonstrated. That does not alleviate any expectations of any proof by JIT (which there isn't any, "they are confident" aside).
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:10 am

tommy1808 wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
So, why do you only remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?


Because it was a legal framework that materialized in a joint German-Russian act of war against Poland and which started WW2?


:checkmark:
Appeasement and conspiracy to wage war of aggression are two different pairs of shoes. Not that appeasement worked, but it wasn't intended to start a war.

Best regards
Thomas


You can argue about Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as much as you like, but nonetheless the USSR did grant Poland its sovereignty after the war. And even gave it back some German territories. They had all they needed to not do it (including liquidation of its statehood once and forever), had Stalin decided so after 1945.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
All whataboutisms. The missile belonged to Russian stocks, Russia is involved in this. Russia has been less than open. This demonstration by people whom lost a loved one is at the correct place.


OK - so they demonstrated. That does not alleviate any expectations of any proof by JIT (which there isn't any, "they are confident" aside).


OK, last time you had my comment removed. I will rephrase. JIT is a reputable independent organization, calling it "they have no proof" is laughable at best, the same with academic research, an academic theory, is a near certainty. You can argue whatever you want, you will never convince me. A ruling of an independent judge will convince me, but not Russians whom are defending the accused. Same with you, I guess nothing will convince you, even an independent judge, I am afraid, but if I'm wrong with the last comment, please confirm you will accept a ruling by a Dutch court of law.

BTW I have heard from a source near the investigation that there are plans to build a special building in The Hague for this court. So they will see this trough, with or without the defendant present.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
JIT is a reputable independent organization, ...


The JIT is a purpose created entity ( by Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine )
with no existing trail of reputation or assigned legal standing.

More of a "political pressure tool" than anything else
and definitely not "independent".
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
JIT is a reputable independent organization, ...


The JIT is a purpose created entity ( by Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine )
with no existing trail of reputation or assigned legal standing.

More of a "political pressure tool" than anything else
and definitely not "independent".


Complete and utter bull. It is lead by the Dutch prosecutor's office and the Dutch justice system is one of the best in the world. Completely independent. It isn't the Russian legal system after all. But be my guest, if you have anything to back up your claims :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:42 pm

salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Communism is the system that saved the whole world from Nazism.
Is that what Russian schoolchildren are taught? Do you also teach them about the pact that Stalin made with Molotov to split Poland between them? If I were you I'd drop the communism part and just credit the Russian people.


Wanna mention the Munich pact then when you guys got in bed with the Nazi's? Or do they not teach you that in school? :roll:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:49 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
So, why do you only remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?


Because it was a legal framework that materialized in a joint German-Russian act of war against Poland and which started WW2?


Again, we can go further and analyze the west being in bed with the Nazis, which set the stage for WW2 as attempts by the USSR to create an alliance against the Nazis got nowhere. With the west being stupid enough to think that the Nazis and the USSR would duke it out and kill each other. When I mentioned "too stupid", I meant that they didn't think that all of western europe would get their asses handed to them in the process.

History is a bitch like that. When you start pulling events out, you might want to read up on other events in the same timeframe.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:57 pm

tu204 wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
So, why do you only remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?


Because it was a legal framework that materialized in a joint German-Russian act of war against Poland and which started WW2?


Again, we can go further and analyze the west being in bed with the Nazis, which set the stage for WW2 as attempts by the USSR to create an alliance against the Nazis got nowhere. With the west being stupid enough to think that the Nazis and the USSR would duke it out and kill each other. When I mentioned "too stupid", I meant that they didn't think that all of western europe would get their asses handed to them in the process.

History is a bitch like that. When you start pulling events out, you might want to read up on other events in the same timeframe.


The Versaille treaty set the stage or WWII. Nothing else. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact made it easier for Hitler to invade western European countries. Nothing else.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:07 pm

tu204 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Communism is the system that saved the whole world from Nazism.
Is that what Russian schoolchildren are taught? Do you also teach them about the pact that Stalin made with Molotov to split Poland between them? If I were you I'd drop the communism part and just credit the Russian people.


Wanna mention the Munich pact then when you guys got in bed with the Nazi's? Or do they not teach you that in school? :roll:


If we take Scorpius reactions here as a kind of archetypical Russian reaction, it is indeed falsification of history. Communism is a horrible system which killed more than Nazism. That is just a fact. Stalin has indeed sacrificed a lot of his citizens and was crucial in the defeat of the NAZI's, but it also has to be remembered that Stalin made it possible for Hitler's blitzkrieg to work in the west.

You need to acknowledge that.

But all of this is far outside the scope of this thread. This thread is about the current Russian government and the Russian military missile which is used in the murder of the passengers and crew of the MH17.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:20 pm

tu204 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Communism is the system that saved the whole world from Nazism.
Is that what Russian schoolchildren are taught? Do you also teach them about the pact that Stalin made with Molotov to split Poland between them? If I were you I'd drop the communism part and just credit the Russian people.


Wanna mention the Munich pact then when you guys got in bed with the Nazi's? Or do they not teach you that in school? :roll:
I missed this (I usually don't read tu204's posts).
What you call the "Munich Pact" was Chamberlain's final concession to the Nazi's. He made that concession because he had no other choice. Britain had no military means of resisting the German occupation of Czechoslovakia, to resist would have been futile, so he extracted a promise from Hitler that this would be the last. He needed to stall any war with Germany until Britain had built up its military, so he tried to make the best out of a bad situation.

This is in no way comparable to Stalin's plotting with Hitler to divvy up Poland between them. In 1939, Poland was invaded by both Russia and Germany.

But I take it that the Russians teach their children that Munich is equal to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which is a lie.
 
tu204
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
The Versaille treaty set the stage or WWII.


Yup. I agree with you. And this is what I meant by analyzing history to different conclusions. If the starting point is of your analysis is the Soviet-Nazi pact, you will reach one conclusion, if you go back to Versailles, you will reach another.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:42 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The Versaille treaty set the stage or WWII.


Yup. I agree with you. And this is what I meant by analyzing history to different conclusions. If the starting point is of your analysis is the Soviet-Nazi pact, you will reach one conclusion, if you go back to Versailles, you will reach another.


No, you Soviet-Nazi pact directly contributed to the abilities of the Nazi's to concur western Europe, including the Netherlands. The Versailles treaty set the stage for the rise of the Nazi's. So both are true.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:34 am

salttee wrote:
This is in no way comparable to Stalin's plotting with Hitler to divvy up Poland between them. In 1939, Poland was invaded by both Russia and Germany..


you can make most any statement appear valid by way of keyhole views.

Look into not only Polish expansionism in the interwar period:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... oland#1918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... s_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... Soviet_War
.. and onwards.

My guess is that the 1918 developement paved the way for the lack of opposition to Nazi "Judenverfolgung" in Poland.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:18 am

WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
This is in no way comparable to Stalin's plotting with Hitler to divvy up Poland between them. In 1939, Poland was invaded by both Russia and Germany..


you can make most any statement appear valid by way of keyhole views.

Look into not only Polish expansionism in the interwar period:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... oland#1918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... s_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... Soviet_War
.. and onwards.

My guess is that the 1918 developement paved the way for the lack of opposition to Nazi "Judenverfolgung" in Poland.


Gross oversimplifying what happened. Russia played its part in the beginning of WWII, it would be good to acknowledge that fact.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am

Dutchy wrote:
Gross oversimplifying what happened. Russia played its part in the beginning of WWII, it would be good to acknowledge that fact.


Nothing to acknowledge as I added information that made it more complex. ( OK, it less fits your agenda now.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:18 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Gross oversimplifying what happened. Russia played its part in the beginning of WWII, it would be good to acknowledge that fact.


Nothing to acknowledge as I added information that made it more complex. ( OK, it less fits your agenda now.)


Alright, I see your acceptance in this, good. And that's your perception, I do not have any agenda, unlike some here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:11 pm

MH17 researchers fall victim to eavesdropping by Ukraine and Russia

Dutch people who conducted research into the MH17 disaster in Ukraine have been widely tapped by Ukraine and Russia.
This is what RTL Nieuws reports on the basis of "well-established sources".

Dutch agents, soldiers and staff of the Public Prosecution Service traveled to Ukraine after the disaster to investigate the air disaster and to recover the bodies of the killed passengers from the flight and to return to the Netherlands.

While they were there, they were monitored by the secret service of Russia and Ukraine with eavesdropping devices and spy software on devices. Hotel listening devices had been found in hotel rooms.

According to RTL Nieuws "a high source recognizes the sensitivity of espionage by Ukraine, but the espionage of Russia was more structural and extensive


In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/53 ... sland.html

No surprise that Russia was doing this, but Ukraine is a bit surprising though.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
No surprise that Russia was doing this, but Ukraine is a bit surprising though.


What are you surprised by? I would be really surprised if Russians actually did listen to MH-17 investigators when they are in Ukraine. But not surprised if Western (and especially Ukrainian) media mentions something like this. Speaking of Ukraine - after that Babchenko imbecilic thing you should just stop taking Kiev regime seriously. And take them at what they are - a gathering of imbeciles serious individuals don't want to do anything with.

And as I mentioned - everything material so far (Bellingcat "social network based" reporting isn't material) points to Ukraine. And Ukraine still hasn't answered any of the most relevant questions - who and how made the decision to keep the airspace open despite planes being shot down? Where's the air traffic controller and what happened to her since? Is she even alive? Of course they have to spy to make sure they don't become the suspects.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No surprise that Russia was doing this, but Ukraine is a bit surprising though.


What are you surprised by? I would be really surprised if Russians actually did listen to MH-17 investigators when they are in Ukraine. But not surprised if Western (and especially Ukrainian) media mentions something like this. Speaking of Ukraine - after that Babchenko imbecilic thing you should just stop taking Kiev regime seriously. And take them at what they are - a gathering of imbeciles serious individuals don't want to do anything with.

And as I mentioned - everything material so far (Bellingcat "social network based" reporting isn't material) points to Ukraine. And Ukraine still hasn't answered any of the most relevant questions - who and how made the decision to keep the airspace open despite planes being shot down? Where's the air traffic controller and what happened to her since? Is she even alive? Of course they have to spy to make sure they don't become the suspects.

** Yawn **
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