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User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 9:31 pm

And there you have it again, question everything. You claim to be a Russian, how could we know? You claim to be living in Ukraine, how could we know? You claim not to be paid by the Russian government, yet how could we know?

In the court of the public opinion, Russia has lost big time. The JIT has a lot more credibility than all Russian defenders on this site. JIT needs his day in court, they are said to be narrowing their suspects. Why don't you without reservation call upon the country which harbors the suspects to release them to The Netherlands to stand trial so the JIT can present its case in court. It doesn't cost you anything, it will have no effect in real life.

So let's go, com'on, no worries, anrec80......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 9:32 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In the end, they need to prove it in court, so call upon Putin to hand over the men whom are going to be indited, whomever they are because they are not yet known. Don't you agree, it is quite unreasonable what you asking here?


Agree. But - they are demanding that Russia as a state admits responsibility for this whole thing.


Be careful, who is "they".
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 5:13 am

Which Russian Brigade claims responsibility for raiding this thread though?
 
anrec80
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 5:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
Be careful, who is "they".


Netherlands and Australia as of now, joined by the EU.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 5:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Be careful, who is "they".


Netherlands and Australia as of now, joined by the EU.


The governments of the Netherlands and Australia. As far as I know, the EU is not demanding anything, the nation-states just said they agree with the Dutch approach.
Mine "they" referred to the JIT and the JIT did not demand anything from Russia, they have asked to cooperate though, in accordance with international rules and with a UNSC resolution.

Like I said, be very careful and precise what you say and who does what and says what. The JIT is independent from the government.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 6:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
And there you have it again, question everything. You claim to be a Russian, how could we know? You claim to be living in Ukraine, how could we know? You claim not to be paid by the Russian government, yet how could we know?

Of course you have to question everything in a matter of that importance. As I said - it's a matter whether those responsible will be brought to justice or not.

Dutchy wrote:
In the court of the public opinion, Russia has lost big time. The JIT has a lot more credibility than all Russian defenders on this site. JIT needs his day in court, they are said to be narrowing their suspects.


Now you need to determine what's your priority - to hold those who launched this missile responsible or win in a "court of public opinion". The latter, with your "European solidarity" and large market share of mainstream media is easy. Media can even make the case that has totally fallen apart look like a won one - you'll get some more time bashing Russia. But - and after you are done enjoying your victory in a "public opinion court", possibly long after, some by then former Ukrainian official will write in their memoirs things like "This tragic incident helped save Ukraine", "we successfully evaded responsibility for this, and it didn't even lose financial aid from EU", or maybe even "we successfully tricked those idiots from JIT into looking the other way". Is that how you want this to end?

Dutchy wrote:
Why don't you without reservation call upon the country which harbors the suspects to release them to The Netherlands to stand trial so the JIT can present its case in court. It doesn't cost you anything, it will have no effect in real life.


Whether those suspects are in Ukraine or Russia - both of these countries at constitutional level prohibit releasing their citizens to another country, regardless of the reasons. Simple as that. I mentioned that before here; you should know it. You should forget about this idea. It's not a matter whether someone wants to "harbor" them over or not - no judge or prosecutor has a right to do it. JIT will have to go to their court and prove it there.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 9:05 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And there you have it again, question everything. You claim to be a Russian, how could we know? You claim to be living in Ukraine, how could we know? You claim not to be paid by the Russian government, yet how could we know?

Of course you have to question everything in a matter of that importance. As I said - it's a matter whether those responsible will be brought to justice or not.


You can question something some of the time, questioning everything where you know no-one here can give you an answer to, is just a pathetic tactic to smear the JIT investigation, nothing more.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In the court of the public opinion, Russia has lost big time. The JIT has a lot more credibility than all Russian defenders on this site. JIT needs his day in court, they are said to be narrowing their suspects.


Now you need to determine what's your priority - to hold those who launched this missile responsible or win in a "court of public opinion". The latter, with your "European solidarity" and large market share of mainstream media is easy. Media can even make the case that has totally fallen apart look like a won one - you'll get some more time bashing Russia. But - and after you are done enjoying your victory in a "public opinion court", possibly long after, some by then former Ukrainian official will write in their memoirs things like "This tragic incident helped save Ukraine", "we successfully evaded responsibility for this, and it didn't even lose financial aid from EU", or maybe even "we successfully tricked those idiots from JIT into looking the other way". Is that how you want this to end?


Do you want it to end in that Russia eventually has to admit it lied continuously? Their "theories" have been shot down one after the other.

As for western media, they are independent, so they can write whatever they like.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why don't you without reservation call upon the country which harbors the suspects to release them to The Netherlands to stand trial so the JIT can present its case in court. It doesn't cost you anything, it will have no effect in real life.


Whether those suspects are in Ukraine or Russia - both of these countries at constitutional level prohibit releasing their citizens to another country, regardless of the reasons. Simple as that. I mentioned that before here; you should know it. You should forget about this idea. It's not a matter whether someone wants to "harbor" them over or not - no judge or prosecutor has a right to do it. JIT will have to go to their court and prove it there.


That's why I said, you could call upon the government here to do so, and it will not even have any effect in real life, and yet you choose to hide behind the constitution. You know Russian courts aren't independent, so no use to go to court there. It will be an international arrest warrant thus these people can't move outside Russia. I think for Ukranian citizens there is a special deal. If someone is indited, then they will be extradited to the Netherlands to stand trail.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 3:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Do you want it to end in that Russia eventually has to admit it lied continuously? Their "theories" have been shot down one after the other.
.

So far, I've been watching your "theories" have been shot down one after the other.
JIT eludes through to the help official of Russian investigators.
By the way, JIT reported that Russia provides the necessary technical information. For example, primary data from radar. And when JIT could not independently process these data, the Russians provided a converted in a format convenient for JIT.

I still haven't seen an explanation - why part of the body of the rocket, which fell from a height of 10 kilometers, looks so intact? There are no deformations, cracks, breaks, explosion or impact on the ground at high speed.
I still do not see any explanation - why Russian troops need to shoot down a passenger plane in Ukraine. Especially in this way-to carry the complex "BUK" already from Kursk several hundred kilometers, when there are Ukrainian complexes, some of them were captured by the rebels at the time. Why use a missile with a warhead that is not in service of Ukraine?

Any investigation must adhere to the framework of logic, not unrestrained imagination. One of the first questions that comes to mind sounds like: "Who was profitable to shoot down a passenger plane over Ukraine?". Definitely not Russia. Russia could not get any advantage from this. But the advantage they could bring to the Ukraine. And the United States of America, too, could get an advantage - using the disaster as an information reason to incite hysteria around the imaginary Russian aggression.

These are very simple questions and very simple conclusions. They can be reached independently by any independent-minded person. It is only necessary to study the issue in a complex, comparing it with the political situation, with the consequences and so on.

By the way, can anyone explain to me now the sanctions against the Russian concern "Almaz-Antey", if out that according to JIT the rocket, which shot down MH17, released in 1986? In this case, Almaz-Antey is not related to the launch of this missile, as it appeared only in 2002.

According to this logic, after the terrorist attack of 09/11, America was to impose sanctions on the Boeing Corporation. Only I confused by the stupidity of Western politicians ' arguments?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 4:07 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you want it to end in that Russia eventually has to admit it lied continuously? Their "theories" have been shot down one after the other.
.

So far, I've been watching your "theories" have been shot down one after the other.

Could you please provide me with all my theories and how they were shot down, as far as I am aware I only had one theory regarding the MH17 and that still holds water.

Scorpius wrote:
JIT eludes through to the help official of Russian investigators.
By the way, JIT reported that Russia provides the necessary technical information. For example, primary data from radar. And when JIT could not independently process these data, the Russians provided a converted in a format convenient for JIT.


Haha, the Russians have not been forthcoming in this, this included this tape. Some backward format which they know or should have known the JIT wasn't able to read it because it didn't meet international standards. So I would say that is an excellent case how Russia is stalling this, especially considering they handed it over years after the shoot-down of MH17. Why this delay?

Scorpius wrote:
I still haven't seen an explanation - why part of the body of the rocket, which fell from a height of 10 kilometers, looks so intact? There are no deformations, cracks, breaks, explosion or impact on the ground at high speed.


Nobody knows here, because they haven't got the source material, it has been investigated by the JIT and specialist. It is a ridiculous question to ask here if you truly expect an honest. So I can only conclude you are asking this for another reason.

Scorpius wrote:
I still do not see any explanation - why Russian troops need to shoot down a passenger plane in Ukraine. Especially in this way-to carry the complex "BUK" already from Kursk several hundred kilometers, when there are Ukrainian complexes, some of them were captured by the rebels at the time. Why use a missile with a warhead that is not in service of Ukraine?


Your premise is that it was shot down on purpose. I think that is weird even to think about. So here it goes, my only theory regarding the MH17 is as follows:
- Russian BUK came from Russia, Russian servicemen or rebels marginally trained on the thing got behind the controls, they saw a transport like an aircraft heading from west to east (like the Ukranian military were doing at that time and they shot some down so there was a president), a trigger happy with a less then complete picture decided to shoot down the aircraft and that turns out to be the MH17.

That is the most logical explanation for what happened. And the JIT actually found evidence for that.

Scorpius wrote:
Any investigation must adhere to the framework of logic, not unrestrained imagination. One of the first questions that comes to mind sounds like: "Who was profitable to shoot down a passenger plane over Ukraine?". Definitely not Russia. Russia could not get any advantage from this. But the advantage they could bring to the Ukraine. And the United States of America, too, could get an advantage - using the disaster as an information reason to incite hysteria around the imaginary Russian aggression.


Theory posted above, full of logic. Again you are in a really dark place if you think that someone targeted a civil airline on purpose.

Scorpius wrote:
These are very simple questions and very simple conclusions. They can be reached independently by any independent-minded person. It is only necessary to study the issue in a complex, comparing it with the political situation, with the consequences and so on.


So basically you say, if they don't come to this conclusion, they are not independent-minded persons. Strange to have preconceived ideas like that.

Scorpius wrote:
By the way, can anyone explain to me now the sanctions against the Russian concern "Almaz-Antey", if out that according to JIT the rocket, which shot down MH17, released in 1986? In this case, Almaz-Antey is not related to the launch of this missile, as it appeared only in 2002.


Could you show us were Russia was sanction because they shot down the MH17? As far as I am aware of no sanctions have been imposed because of this crime.

Scorpius wrote:
According to this logic, after the terrorist attack of 09/11, America was to impose sanctions on the Boeing Corporation. Only I confused by the stupidity of Western politicians ' arguments?


No sanctions have been imposed on Russia because they shot down the MH17, so there your comparison fails right at the beginning. The Dutch government, which I happen to know a bit about, has never pointed the finger to Russia, until now. They have said, with mounting pressure from the relatives of the murdered, first, we need evidence from the JIT and then we can make a conclusion. After four years the time has come to accuse Russia on the basis of this evidence. So from the official side the response was quite constrained.

There are, rightfully so, sanctions imposed on Russia, tailored made to hit the oligarchs around your beloved Putin. Those sanctions were put forward because Russia broke international law by annexing Crimea and all the destabilizing Putin's regime has done over the years and continue's to do. Probably Almaz-Antey is owned by such an oligarch and that's why they are sanctioned? Just a hypothesis of mine. But that definitely has nothing to do with the MH17. So the linking of those two is false.

On a personal note, it is almost unbelievable that you are the same person whom wrote here before full of ad hominem. You see, if you don't do that, you can post here anything you like.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Tue May 29, 2018 10:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
All EU member states have expressed their "strong support" on Monday for the Dutch approach to the MH17 case. '' Really encouraging and very important that this support is there '', Foreign Minister Stef Blok said after a meeting with his colleagues in Brussels.
Blok is calling on the UN Security Council on Tuesday to explain, among other things, that the Netherlands and Australia are making Russia liable for the downfall of flight MH17. He also explains the evidence. '' The support means that we can put pressure on Russia together. So that helps enormously. ''

During his speech, the minister '' will look straight into the eyes of the Russian ambassador. Of course I am very curious about his reaction. My deep hope is that the Russians will ultimately do what they have to do: admit their involvement and provide satisfaction. "

'' I am afraid, however, that we must be realistic and step by step to step up the pressure, 'according to Blok.' 'The reactions from Russia have unfortunately been very hesitant in the past few days.This does not mean we give up, but rather that we have a I'm afraid we have to be real and that it can take years.


In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/52 ... -zaak.html

Good, it is not the Netherlands on its own, its the EU now. We will see what will happen in the UNSC this week. No resolution will pass of course because Russia is a permanent member.


Enough with "Resolutions" already. We have plenty of those WITH Russia's signature on them.
It is time to actually uphold and enforce them.
 
anrec80
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 5:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
You can question something some of the time, questioning everything where you know no-one here can give you an answer to, is just a pathetic tactic to smear the JIT investigation, nothing more.


This is not a "pathetic tactic" Dutchy. These are perfectly reasonable questions to be asked in court, and JIT better has answers. If something is claimed as a piece of evidence - they need to tell its story: where does this fit into the picture of what happened, where/how it was found exactly, etc. Just showing a piece of the missile won't cut it. Someone was already shaking a piece of a bus; that wasn't looking well at all.

Dutchy wrote:
Do you want it to end in that Russia eventually has to admit it lied continuously? Their "theories" have been shot down one after the other.
As for western media, they are independent, so they can write whatever they like.


See, it's the Western promised "proof" generally was found to be not present, or stories were falling apart. They've had like 1/2 dozen "plots" recently, and none of them came close to actually be proven or justified.

Dutchy wrote:
That's why I said, you could call upon the government here to do so, and it will not even have any effect in real life, and yet you choose to hide behind the constitution. You know Russian courts aren't independent, so no use to go to court there. It will be an international arrest warrant thus these people can't move outside Russia. I think for Ukranian citizens there is a special deal. If someone is indited, then they will be extradited to the Netherlands to stand trail.


Constitution in a country is not for hiding behind it. It's there to be observed, is the basis of all legislature of the country, guidance on how its institutions are functioning, and more. Ukraine won't extradite anyone either - for this very same reason. And trust me, Ukrainian regime, despite being dependent on the West entirely, can be really stubborn when it comes to what's important for them. So the quest won't be easy even there. And courts in Ukraine are certainly a farce - even when someone is convicted, 100 armed "patriots" will show up to "free up" their "sworn brothers". Simple as that - the "wrong" court decision is not so important.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 7:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
This is not a "pathetic tactic" Dutchy. These are perfectly reasonable questions to be asked in court, and JIT better has answers.


It is both, reasonable question in court and pathetic tactic here. Here nobody can answer this thus it is pathetic to ask, because the only reason I can think of to ask it is simple to cast doubt, nothing more. As for the court, they damn well know they have to prove this in court, so they will make sure they do have the answers to these questions. They are professionals, so I have no indication that they don't. Do you?

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you want it to end in that Russia eventually has to admit it lied continuously? Their "theories" have been shot down one after the other.
As for western media, they are independent, so they can write whatever they like.


See, it's the Western promised "proof" generally was found to be not present, or stories were falling apart. They've had like 1/2 dozen "plots" recently, and none of them came close to actually be proven or justified.


Give me the list of the 1/2 dozen plot please:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

As for Russia, they have a lot of theories around the MH17 alone, which has been fallen apart, from memory alone: they wanted to shoot Putin's plane down (!), it was a Su-25, there was a Spanish air traffic controller, it was a Ukranian BUK etc. etc. etc.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That's why I said, you could call upon the government here to do so, and it will not even have any effect in real life, and yet you choose to hide behind the constitution. You know Russian courts aren't independent, so no use to go to court there. It will be an international arrest warrant thus these people can't move outside Russia. I think for Ukranian citizens there is a special deal. If someone is indited, then they will be extradited to the Netherlands to stand trail.


Constitution in a country is not for hiding behind it. It's there to be observed, is the basis of all legislature of the country, guidance on how its institutions are functioning, and more. Ukraine won't extradite anyone either - for this very same reason. And trust me, Ukrainian regime, despite being dependent on the West entirely, can be really stubborn when it comes to what's important for them. So the quest won't be easy even there. And courts in Ukraine are certainly a farce - even when someone is convicted, 100 armed "patriots" will show up to "free up" their "sworn brothers". Simple as that - the "wrong" court decision is not so important.


Like I said, Ukraine has a special deal in which they will hand over countrymen. Furthermore, it is hiding behind the constitution. I ask you for a moral choice, you give me but but in real life, it can't happen. Fine, that is your choice and it says a lot about you that you even won't make this choice here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 7:16 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
All EU member states have expressed their "strong support" on Monday for the Dutch approach to the MH17 case. '' Really encouraging and very important that this support is there '', Foreign Minister Stef Blok said after a meeting with his colleagues in Brussels.
Blok is calling on the UN Security Council on Tuesday to explain, among other things, that the Netherlands and Australia are making Russia liable for the downfall of flight MH17. He also explains the evidence. '' The support means that we can put pressure on Russia together. So that helps enormously. ''

During his speech, the minister '' will look straight into the eyes of the Russian ambassador. Of course I am very curious about his reaction. My deep hope is that the Russians will ultimately do what they have to do: admit their involvement and provide satisfaction. "

'' I am afraid, however, that we must be realistic and step by step to step up the pressure, 'according to Blok.' 'The reactions from Russia have unfortunately been very hesitant in the past few days.This does not mean we give up, but rather that we have a I'm afraid we have to be real and that it can take years.


In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/52 ... -zaak.html

Good, it is not the Netherlands on its own, its the EU now. We will see what will happen in the UNSC this week. No resolution will pass of course because Russia is a permanent member.


Enough with "Resolutions" already. We have plenty of those WITH Russia's signature on them.
It is time to actually uphold and enforce them.


Ok, and how would you like to go about this? More sanctions?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 9:48 am

alfa164 wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Did you even study my link? Are you disputing the age of the missile or the fact that ATC requested that said plane alter course? Can you prove anything in that video, say the direction of the vehicles for instance or do you just accept what the narrator is saying?
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pilots-of-air-india-plane-heard-ukraine-atc-asking-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-to-change-direction-2004730


And what is your point? To quote from the article: "Aerotelegraph.com reports that just a few minutes before the crash, both flights received permission for deviating from the planned route. Since the two flights were flying very close to each other, the Ukrainian Air Traffic controller asked the MH17 pilot to contact the Air India pilot. The Boeing 777 was given permission to change route, but it soon disappeared from radar and could not be contacted by the Air India aircraft. "A linear route saves time and fuel, so pilots prefer this option. When the pilots of Air India learned about the fate of MH17, they were shocked. It's as if your colleague was killed by a sniper near you," said a source to another newspaper."

So MH17, like so many flights, asked and received permission to deviate from its planned course to a more linear course - to save time and fuel. Did you even read the article yourself?

Balerit wrote:


That is laughable! "Off-Guardian"... "In November 2016, the site was listed by PropOrNot as one of its list of 200 "Fake News" websites."

Even Russian trolls should do better than come up with a source like that! Next, you will be citing something in Wikipedia... that you wrote yourself...

tommy1808 wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Have you got links to where my articles are proved to be false?


He posted links to the current state of findings, which happen to be the end result after considering exactly what you bring up, you have to disprove the report first, before he has to do anything. That report is as peer reviewed as it gets, you just have articles, which by that peer review obviously can be dismissed. Russia is responsible, denial at this stage is like insisting earth is just 10k years old.
Best regards
Thomas


Or insisting the earth is flat... and Russia is the flattest part. ;)

These guys just don't seem to understand that any thinking person is laughing at them...




Thanks for this! I’m sick and at home, so now I’ll have a good laugh going through these websites.

You’re my guardian angel of a.net
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
I’m sick and at home, so now I’ll have a good laugh going through these websites.


Get well soon, Justin.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 3:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
I’m sick and at home, so now I’ll have a good laugh going through these websites.


Get well soon, Justin.


Thanks Dutchy, that’s very kind of you.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 3:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, and how would you like to go about this? More sanctions?


You prefer more "meaningless" paper resolutions which Russia will just ignore?
 
Arion640
Posts: 1335
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 4:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you want it to end in that Russia eventually has to admit it lied continuously? Their "theories" have been shot down one after the other.
.

So far, I've been watching your "theories" have been shot down one after the other.

Could you please provide me with all my theories and how they were shot down, as far as I am aware I only had one theory regarding the MH17 and that still holds water.

Scorpius wrote:
JIT eludes through to the help official of Russian investigators.
By the way, JIT reported that Russia provides the necessary technical information. For example, primary data from radar. And when JIT could not independently process these data, the Russians provided a converted in a format convenient for JIT.


Haha, the Russians have not been forthcoming in this, this included this tape. Some backward format which they know or should have known the JIT wasn't able to read it because it didn't meet international standards. So I would say that is an excellent case how Russia is stalling this, especially considering they handed it over years after the shoot-down of MH17. Why this delay?

Scorpius wrote:
I still haven't seen an explanation - why part of the body of the rocket, which fell from a height of 10 kilometers, looks so intact? There are no deformations, cracks, breaks, explosion or impact on the ground at high speed.


Nobody knows here, because they haven't got the source material, it has been investigated by the JIT and specialist. It is a ridiculous question to ask here if you truly expect an honest. So I can only conclude you are asking this for another reason.

Scorpius wrote:
I still do not see any explanation - why Russian troops need to shoot down a passenger plane in Ukraine. Especially in this way-to carry the complex "BUK" already from Kursk several hundred kilometers, when there are Ukrainian complexes, some of them were captured by the rebels at the time. Why use a missile with a warhead that is not in service of Ukraine?


Your premise is that it was shot down on purpose. I think that is weird even to think about. So here it goes, my only theory regarding the MH17 is as follows:
- Russian BUK came from Russia, Russian servicemen or rebels marginally trained on the thing got behind the controls, they saw a transport like an aircraft heading from west to east (like the Ukranian military were doing at that time and they shot some down so there was a president), a trigger happy with a less then complete picture decided to shoot down the aircraft and that turns out to be the MH17.

That is the most logical explanation for what happened. And the JIT actually found evidence for that.

Scorpius wrote:
Any investigation must adhere to the framework of logic, not unrestrained imagination. One of the first questions that comes to mind sounds like: "Who was profitable to shoot down a passenger plane over Ukraine?". Definitely not Russia. Russia could not get any advantage from this. But the advantage they could bring to the Ukraine. And the United States of America, too, could get an advantage - using the disaster as an information reason to incite hysteria around the imaginary Russian aggression.


Theory posted above, full of logic. Again you are in a really dark place if you think that someone targeted a civil airline on purpose.

Scorpius wrote:
These are very simple questions and very simple conclusions. They can be reached independently by any independent-minded person. It is only necessary to study the issue in a complex, comparing it with the political situation, with the consequences and so on.


So basically you say, if they don't come to this conclusion, they are not independent-minded persons. Strange to have preconceived ideas like that.

Scorpius wrote:
By the way, can anyone explain to me now the sanctions against the Russian concern "Almaz-Antey", if out that according to JIT the rocket, which shot down MH17, released in 1986? In this case, Almaz-Antey is not related to the launch of this missile, as it appeared only in 2002.


Could you show us were Russia was sanction because they shot down the MH17? As far as I am aware of no sanctions have been imposed because of this crime.

Scorpius wrote:
According to this logic, after the terrorist attack of 09/11, America was to impose sanctions on the Boeing Corporation. Only I confused by the stupidity of Western politicians ' arguments?


No sanctions have been imposed on Russia because they shot down the MH17, so there your comparison fails right at the beginning. The Dutch government, which I happen to know a bit about, has never pointed the finger to Russia, until now. They have said, with mounting pressure from the relatives of the murdered, first, we need evidence from the JIT and then we can make a conclusion. After four years the time has come to accuse Russia on the basis of this evidence. So from the official side the response was quite constrained.

There are, rightfully so, sanctions imposed on Russia, tailored made to hit the oligarchs around your beloved Putin. Those sanctions were put forward because Russia broke international law by annexing Crimea and all the destabilizing Putin's regime has done over the years and continue's to do. Probably Almaz-Antey is owned by such an oligarch and that's why they are sanctioned? Just a hypothesis of mine. But that definitely has nothing to do with the MH17. So the linking of those two is false.

On a personal note, it is almost unbelievable that you are the same person whom wrote here before full of ad hominem. You see, if you don't do that, you can post here anything you like.


I must say Dutchy, you've really gone to town on this thread.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

No CONC sadly.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 5:15 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I must say Dutchy, you've really gone to town on this thread.


I didn't know that expression, so I looked it up. Thank you, I guess. 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dogman
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 8:17 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

I must say Dutchy, you've really gone to town on this thread.


Lies should not go unchallenged. I appreciate anyone who are spending their personal time just to make sure that liars cannot bury the truth under a mountains of lies that they are fabricating.
 
salttee
Posts: 2443
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Wed May 30, 2018 11:44 pm

Dogman wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


Lies should not go unchallenged. I appreciate anyone who are spending their personal time just to make sure that liars cannot bury the truth under a mountains of lies that they are fabricating.
But there is also the concept of "feeding a troll' to be kept in mind.
 
anrec80
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 3:12 am

Dutchy wrote:

It is both, reasonable question in court and pathetic tactic here. Here nobody can answer this thus it is pathetic to ask, because the only reason I can think of to ask it is simple to cast doubt, nothing more.

As for the court, they damn well know they have to prove this in court, so they will make sure they do have the answers to these questions. They are professionals, so I have no indication that they don't. Do you?


Ok - let’s say we won’t cast doubts. This way you will sleep comfortably believing that “those at fault” were completely bashed, while the real ones will be opening champagne celebrating how they fooled “these Dutch idiots”. Is that better? You are the first one on this forum in whose interest it is to ask all these questions.
And as I said - they are professionals, and together with that they want to remain in the field. See one of my posts above with regards to that.

Dutchy wrote:
Give me the list of the 1/2 dozen plot please:


Sure, let’s try.
1. The root cause - Ukrainian presence. As I said before - nobody has ever seen even a single “occupant”, neither dead nor alive.
2. USA elections “meddling” - where’s something? All there was found ever is silly thing like less than $Mil worth of ads out of $10Bil. And even there nobody has proven any violation of USA laws.
3. Skripals thingie. 3 months and no traces, no suspects. Notorious “highly likely”. Quite fully - Novichok was produced in quite a few European countries, and Mr. Skripal had meetings of unknown kind with most security services in EU.
4. Syrian “chemical attacks”. All your abilities turned out to be limited to the question “how much were you paid?”. Nothing beyond.
5. Infamous Olympic scandal - fell apart after Rodhcnkov’s testaments “I don’t know what this cocktail is, I never gave it to anything and I don’t know who, if anyone, took it”. Done. Quietly fell apart after immense amount of media noise.
6. This MH-17 tragedy. Still nowhere close to any meaningful proof.

All that - just within the last year. Gotta think well about #6.

Dutchy wrote:
As for Russia, they have a lot of theories around the MH17 alone, which has been fallen apart, from memory alone: they wanted to shoot Putin's plane down (!), it was a Su-25, there was a Spanish air traffic controller, it was a Ukranian BUK etc. etc. etc.


Nobody ever discussed those seriously, except one - it was a Ukrainian BUK. Year of missile’s manufacture confirms that “more than likely”.

Dutchy wrote:
Like I said, Ukraine has a special deal in which they will hand over countrymen. Furthermore, it is hiding behind the constitution. I ask you for a moral choice, you give me but but in real life, it can't happen. Fine, that is your choice and it says a lot about you that you even won't make this choice here.


Wait a min - do you still believe in a deal with Ukraine? I wouldn’t be so sure. In fact, I would not be sure at all. They might have signed a deal, but it doesn’t mean their what’s still called “constitutional court” will not overturn. However - given that during their armed coup in 2014 the Constitution was thrown into the garbage...
 
anrec80
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 3:23 am

Yeah - and yes, related to above. What’s the story with the “murder” and “sudden resurrection” of the Ukrainian journalist called Babchenko? Ukrainian media managed to bash Russia already, while Western one didn’t pick this thing up by the time of his “resurrection”. Would love to see him kept “dead” for a few more days.

For now - a typical Ukrainian comedy show, Hollywood needs to learn. But other things are not unlike these ones. This thing made my day today and I am charged with a great mood for a week to come!!!
 
salttee
Posts: 2443
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 3:35 am

anrec80, outside of giving Dutchy something to do with his spare time, you're accomplishing nothing.

But by all means don't let reality or common sense stop you, just keep on serving up the baloney.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 5:47 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

It is both, reasonable question in court and pathetic tactic here. Here nobody can answer this thus it is pathetic to ask, because the only reason I can think of to ask it is simple to cast doubt, nothing more.

As for the court, they damn well know they have to prove this in court, so they will make sure they do have the answers to these questions. They are professionals, so I have no indication that they don't. Do you?


Ok - let’s say we won’t cast doubts. This way you will sleep comfortably believing that “those at fault” were completely bashed, while the real ones will be opening champagne celebrating how they fooled “these Dutch idiots”. Is that better? You are the first one on this forum in whose interest it is to ask all these questions.
And as I said - they are professionals, and together with that they want to remain in the field. See one of my posts above with regards to that.


Twisting my words. You want to cast doubt here and you don't succeed in it. Nobody here knows the answer because nobody is in the know in this great detail, so what is your reason to post it here knowing you will not get an answer?

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Give me the list of the 1/2 dozen plot please:


Sure, let’s try.

Will be amuzing to see you try.

anrec80 wrote:
1. The root cause - Ukrainian presence. As I said before - nobody has ever seen even a single “occupant”, neither dead nor alive.


Just by memory: 2 Russian soldiers "on holiday" were captured years ago. Crimea is full of occupants. Before the Russian annexation, there were "green men", Putin himself admitted that those were Russian military.

Even though it is a state secred according to Putin ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... te-secrets ) the truth is coming out. Estimated by the US State department: 400-500 Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine 6 April 2014 – 10 March 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualtie ... ian_crisis

Or this. http://noorimages.com/feature/journey-o ... to-russia/

First is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
2. USA elections “meddling” - where’s something? All there was found ever is silly thing like less than $Mil worth of ads out of $10Bil. And even there nobody has proven any violation of USA laws.


The jury is still out. People get prosecuted.

Second is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
3. Skripals thingie. 3 months and no traces, no suspects. Notorious “highly likely”. Quite fully - Novichok was produced in quite a few European countries, and Mr. Skripal had meetings of unknown kind with most security services in EU.


Still under investigation, be patient my Russian friend. What we do know the Russian claim was false, denied by the laboratory which the Russians claimed to support their case.

Third is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
4. Syrian “chemical attacks”. All your abilities turned out to be limited to the question “how much were you paid?”. Nothing beyond.


Ah, Russian soldiers were first at the scene in the latest attack. I haven't seen any report from the OPWC. There are proven, again from memory, 5 attacks proven in Syria by the Syrian army and 2 by ISIS.

Fouth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
5. Infamous Olympic scandal - fell apart after Rodhcnkov’s testaments “I don’t know what this cocktail is, I never gave it to anything and I don’t know who, if anyone, took it”. Done. Quietly fell apart after immense amount of media noise.


Ah well, still we have the little trap door in the laboratory and all the other evidence. Luckily for Russians, the Russian football team investigation is turned off. So your own team can play in the World Championships next month, which Russia gained through corruption.

Fifth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
6. This MH-17 tragedy. Still nowhere close to any meaningful proof.


Your qualification of "nowhere close to any meaningful proof" is meaningless given the extensive research done in this and given what the JIT has presented in the public domain.

Sixth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
All that - just within the last year. Gotta think well about #6.


All bullocks, so give it another try my friend, still waiting for my six examples which hold water.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As for Russia, they have a lot of theories around the MH17 alone, which has been fallen apart, from memory alone: they wanted to shoot Putin's plane down (!), it was a Su-25, there was a Spanish air traffic controller, it was a Ukranian BUK etc. etc. etc.


Nobody ever discussed those seriously, except one - it was a Ukrainian BUK. Year of missile’s manufacture confirms that “more than likely”.


Really? Why did the Russian military shot a civilian plane with a Su-25 to try to proof the bullet hols where from a Su-25 gun? Satellite date with a Su-25 approaching, released by the Russian military.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mT5g9eEFhw
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and- ... -evidence/

So each and every theory was discussed quite seriously to the extent of military exercises to get proof in the public opinion.

So bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Like I said, Ukraine has a special deal in which they will hand over countrymen. Furthermore, it is hiding behind the constitution. I ask you for a moral choice, you give me but but in real life, it can't happen. Fine, that is your choice and it says a lot about you that you even won't make this choice here.


Wait a min - do you still believe in a deal with Ukraine? I wouldn’t be so sure. In fact, I would not be sure at all. They might have signed a deal, but it doesn’t mean their what’s still called “constitutional court” will not overturn. However - given that during their armed coup in 2014 the Constitution was thrown into the garbage...


A deal is a deal. I have no indication that they can overturn it.

So bullocks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 8:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

It is both, reasonable question in court and pathetic tactic here. Here nobody can answer this thus it is pathetic to ask, because the only reason I can think of to ask it is simple to cast doubt, nothing more.

As for the court, they damn well know they have to prove this in court, so they will make sure they do have the answers to these questions. They are professionals, so I have no indication that they don't. Do you?


Ok - let’s say we won’t cast doubts. This way you will sleep comfortably believing that “those at fault” were completely bashed, while the real ones will be opening champagne celebrating how they fooled “these Dutch idiots”. Is that better? You are the first one on this forum in whose interest it is to ask all these questions.
And as I said - they are professionals, and together with that they want to remain in the field. See one of my posts above with regards to that.


Twisting my words. You want to cast doubt here and you don't succeed in it. Nobody here knows the answer because nobody is in the know in this great detail, so what is your reason to post it here knowing you will not get an answer?

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Give me the list of the 1/2 dozen plot please:


Sure, let’s try.

Will be amuzing to see you try.

anrec80 wrote:
1. The root cause - Ukrainian presence. As I said before - nobody has ever seen even a single “occupant”, neither dead nor alive.


Just by memory: 2 Russian soldiers "on holiday" were captured years ago. Crimea is full of occupants. Before the Russian annexation, there were "green men", Putin himself admitted that those were Russian military.

Even though it is a state secred according to Putin ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... te-secrets ) the truth is coming out. Estimated by the US State department: 400-500 Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine 6 April 2014 – 10 March 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualtie ... ian_crisis

Or this. http://noorimages.com/feature/journey-o ... to-russia/

First is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
2. USA elections “meddling” - where’s something? All there was found ever is silly thing like less than $Mil worth of ads out of $10Bil. And even there nobody has proven any violation of USA laws.


The jury is still out. People get prosecuted.

Second is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
3. Skripals thingie. 3 months and no traces, no suspects. Notorious “highly likely”. Quite fully - Novichok was produced in quite a few European countries, and Mr. Skripal had meetings of unknown kind with most security services in EU.


Still under investigation, be patient my Russian friend. What we do know the Russian claim was false, denied by the laboratory which the Russians claimed to support their case.

Third is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
4. Syrian “chemical attacks”. All your abilities turned out to be limited to the question “how much were you paid?”. Nothing beyond.


Ah, Russian soldiers were first at the scene in the latest attack. I haven't seen any report from the OPWC. There are proven, again from memory, 5 attacks proven in Syria by the Syrian army and 2 by ISIS.

Fouth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
5. Infamous Olympic scandal - fell apart after Rodhcnkov’s testaments “I don’t know what this cocktail is, I never gave it to anything and I don’t know who, if anyone, took it”. Done. Quietly fell apart after immense amount of media noise.


Ah well, still we have the little trap door in the laboratory and all the other evidence. Luckily for Russians, the Russian football team investigation is turned off. So your own team can play in the World Championships next month, which Russia gained through corruption.

Fifth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
6. This MH-17 tragedy. Still nowhere close to any meaningful proof.


Your qualification of "nowhere close to any meaningful proof" is meaningless given the extensive research done in this and given what the JIT has presented in the public domain.

Sixth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
All that - just within the last year. Gotta think well about #6.


All bullocks, so give it another try my friend, still waiting for my six examples which hold water.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As for Russia, they have a lot of theories around the MH17 alone, which has been fallen apart, from memory alone: they wanted to shoot Putin's plane down (!), it was a Su-25, there was a Spanish air traffic controller, it was a Ukranian BUK etc. etc. etc.


Nobody ever discussed those seriously, except one - it was a Ukrainian BUK. Year of missile’s manufacture confirms that “more than likely”.


Really? Why did the Russian military shot a civilian plane with a Su-25 to try to proof the bullet hols where from a Su-25 gun? Satellite date with a Su-25 approaching, released by the Russian military.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mT5g9eEFhw
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and- ... -evidence/

So each and every theory was discussed quite seriously to the extent of military exercises to get proof in the public opinion.

So bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Like I said, Ukraine has a special deal in which they will hand over countrymen. Furthermore, it is hiding behind the constitution. I ask you for a moral choice, you give me but but in real life, it can't happen. Fine, that is your choice and it says a lot about you that you even won't make this choice here.


Wait a min - do you still believe in a deal with Ukraine? I wouldn’t be so sure. In fact, I would not be sure at all. They might have signed a deal, but it doesn’t mean their what’s still called “constitutional court” will not overturn. However - given that during their armed coup in 2014 the Constitution was thrown into the garbage...


A deal is a deal. I have no indication that they can overturn it.

So bullocks.


None of your charges, Dutchy, is not confirmed, what would you then have spoken. In the West, the media inflates Russophobic hysteria, with the help of information methods that no one even tries to confirm. All we see are statements like "highly likely", statements by unknown witnesses that are not shown, and the provision of evidence that is clearly spoofed.
You then continue to inflate Russophobic hysteria on the forum. At the same time you have repeatedly caught by the hand during attempts to provide false information. The most recent and - about the murder of Arkady Babchenko, who, as it turned out, was not. But you were quick to resort to the theme of Russia, this is to once again accuse Russia of weird things. You have no right here to try to state your opinion as the ultimate truth, Dutchy. Your opinion is only your opinion. And it's not worth anything, considering how many times you've tried to trick forum members.
The facts are:
1. Rodchenkov refused his testimony against Russia in the framework of the judicial proceedings on the "doping scandal".
I wonder how soon will be issued compensation to all non-admitted to the Olympic games the Russian athletes? Will there be an official apology to Victor an for not being admitted to the Olympics, despite the fact that he never appeared as a suspect in the use of doping? There were several dozens of such athletes. How much do you think they can sue the Olympic Committee for discrimination on a national basis?

2. Surprisingly, the "Newcomer", which "was produced only in Russia" was also produced in the Czech Republic, in Britain, and in the US. Oh, what an amazing coincidence!

3. The Russian military brought a version with the su-25, but this version never became the official version of Russia about the mh17 crash. By the way, the alleged su-25 pilot, which was discussed, Vladislav Voloshin, was found dead at home in Ukraine on March 18, 2018. Another amazing coincidence, isn't it?
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 12:47 pm

What’s Putin afraid of?

What I want to know is if Putin is such a strong leader, why not just admit what happened? Apologize to the international stage, make amends and meet with the families and help them recover financially or in other ways. Is that so bad? Or is he so ice cold that he doesn’t give a shit?

To me, a coward is someone who can’t admit when they messed up. So by all accounts, Putin is an epic coward. If he would take responsibility this will eventually blow over like everything else.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 1:15 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
What’s Putin afraid of?

What I want to know is if Putin is such a strong leader, why not just admit what happened? Apologize to the international stage, make amends and meet with the families and help them recover financially or in other ways. Is that so bad? Or is he so ice cold that he doesn’t give a shit?
Because then he would have to admit to having started an armed conflict with Ukraine. The potential blowback from a war is a lot worse then the potential blowback from shooting down an airliner.

As long as the invasion is unofficial, no official response will have to be made by other parties. And since geo-politically noone really cares about the Ukraine, noone will make a response until forced to do so.
Attamottamotta!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 3:10 pm

petertenthije wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
What’s Putin afraid of?

What I want to know is if Putin is such a strong leader, why not just admit what happened? Apologize to the international stage, make amends and meet with the families and help them recover financially or in other ways. Is that so bad? Or is he so ice cold that he doesn’t give a shit?
Because then he would have to admit to having started an armed conflict with Ukraine. The potential blowback from a war is a lot worse then the potential blowback from shooting down an airliner.

As long as the invasion is unofficial, no official response will have to be made by other parties. And since geo-politically noone really cares about the Ukraine, noone will make a response until forced to do so.


And Putin will lose face in Russia. Ultimately he is there to protect his own position - money wise and juristical wise - and to protect the oligarchs loyal to him. Because of this, he needs to uphold a certain image for the Russian people. Nothing works better to unite a group (read country) than to have a foreign enemy. And in the case of Putin it is the west and as you can see Scorpius is eating it. He seems to believe the west is Russiaphobe, while that is of course not the case.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 5728
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 4:32 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Ok - let’s say we won’t cast doubts. This way you will sleep comfortably believing that “those at fault” were completely bashed, while the real ones will be opening champagne celebrating how they fooled “these Dutch idiots”. Is that better? You are the first one on this forum in whose interest it is to ask all these questions.
And as I said - they are professionals, and together with that they want to remain in the field. See one of my posts above with regards to that.


Twisting my words. You want to cast doubt here and you don't succeed in it. Nobody here knows the answer because nobody is in the know in this great detail, so what is your reason to post it here knowing you will not get an answer?

anrec80 wrote:

Sure, let’s try.

Will be amuzing to see you try.

anrec80 wrote:
1. The root cause - Ukrainian presence. As I said before - nobody has ever seen even a single “occupant”, neither dead nor alive.


Just by memory: 2 Russian soldiers "on holiday" were captured years ago. Crimea is full of occupants. Before the Russian annexation, there were "green men", Putin himself admitted that those were Russian military.

Even though it is a state secred according to Putin ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... te-secrets ) the truth is coming out. Estimated by the US State department: 400-500 Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine 6 April 2014 – 10 March 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualtie ... ian_crisis

Or this. http://noorimages.com/feature/journey-o ... to-russia/

First is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
2. USA elections “meddling” - where’s something? All there was found ever is silly thing like less than $Mil worth of ads out of $10Bil. And even there nobody has proven any violation of USA laws.


The jury is still out. People get prosecuted.

Second is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
3. Skripals thingie. 3 months and no traces, no suspects. Notorious “highly likely”. Quite fully - Novichok was produced in quite a few European countries, and Mr. Skripal had meetings of unknown kind with most security services in EU.


Still under investigation, be patient my Russian friend. What we do know the Russian claim was false, denied by the laboratory which the Russians claimed to support their case.

Third is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
4. Syrian “chemical attacks”. All your abilities turned out to be limited to the question “how much were you paid?”. Nothing beyond.


Ah, Russian soldiers were first at the scene in the latest attack. I haven't seen any report from the OPWC. There are proven, again from memory, 5 attacks proven in Syria by the Syrian army and 2 by ISIS.

Fouth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
5. Infamous Olympic scandal - fell apart after Rodhcnkov’s testaments “I don’t know what this cocktail is, I never gave it to anything and I don’t know who, if anyone, took it”. Done. Quietly fell apart after immense amount of media noise.


Ah well, still we have the little trap door in the laboratory and all the other evidence. Luckily for Russians, the Russian football team investigation is turned off. So your own team can play in the World Championships next month, which Russia gained through corruption.

Fifth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
6. This MH-17 tragedy. Still nowhere close to any meaningful proof.


Your qualification of "nowhere close to any meaningful proof" is meaningless given the extensive research done in this and given what the JIT has presented in the public domain.

Sixth is bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
All that - just within the last year. Gotta think well about #6.


All bullocks, so give it another try my friend, still waiting for my six examples which hold water.

anrec80 wrote:

Nobody ever discussed those seriously, except one - it was a Ukrainian BUK. Year of missile’s manufacture confirms that “more than likely”.


Really? Why did the Russian military shot a civilian plane with a Su-25 to try to proof the bullet hols where from a Su-25 gun? Satellite date with a Su-25 approaching, released by the Russian military.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mT5g9eEFhw
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and- ... -evidence/

So each and every theory was discussed quite seriously to the extent of military exercises to get proof in the public opinion.

So bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:

Wait a min - do you still believe in a deal with Ukraine? I wouldn’t be so sure. In fact, I would not be sure at all. They might have signed a deal, but it doesn’t mean their what’s still called “constitutional court” will not overturn. However - given that during their armed coup in 2014 the Constitution was thrown into the garbage...


A deal is a deal. I have no indication that they can overturn it.

So bullocks.


None of your charges, Dutchy, is not confirmed, what would you then have spoken. In the West, the media inflates Russophobic hysteria, with the help of information methods that no one even tries to confirm. All we see are statements like "highly likely", statements by unknown witnesses that are not shown, and the provision of evidence that is clearly spoofed.
You then continue to inflate Russophobic hysteria on the forum. At the same time you have repeatedly caught by the hand during attempts to provide false information. The most recent and - about the murder of Arkady Babchenko, who, as it turned out, was not. But you were quick to resort to the theme of Russia, this is to once again accuse Russia of weird things. You have no right here to try to state your opinion as the ultimate truth, Dutchy. Your opinion is only your opinion. And it's not worth anything, considering how many times you've tried to trick forum members.
The facts are:
1. Rodchenkov refused his testimony against Russia in the framework of the judicial proceedings on the "doping scandal".
I wonder how soon will be issued compensation to all non-admitted to the Olympic games the Russian athletes? Will there be an official apology to Victor an for not being admitted to the Olympics, despite the fact that he never appeared as a suspect in the use of doping? There were several dozens of such athletes. How much do you think they can sue the Olympic Committee for discrimination on a national basis?

2. Surprisingly, the "Newcomer", which "was produced only in Russia" was also produced in the Czech Republic, in Britain, and in the US. Oh, what an amazing coincidence!

3. The Russian military brought a version with the su-25, but this version never became the official version of Russia about the mh17 crash. By the way, the alleged su-25 pilot, which was discussed, Vladislav Voloshin, was found dead at home in Ukraine on March 18, 2018. Another amazing coincidence, isn't it?


I must say, you are like a tarrier, Scorpius, well done. Putin would be proud that you bring his story to this forum. It is bullocks, but a well brought bullocks, so some credit for you for the form :D

So everything the Russian military says is bullocks, we don't need to listen to them at all because they have no official status in Russia, ok good to know. So the Russian military missile which shot down MH17 has nothing to do with the Putin regime, or in other words the Putin regime has no control over the military. Seems quite dangerous to me, although your wish that there are going to be Russian tanks in Lisbon is not going to be realized without civilian control, ah well, it was a nice dream for you to have, Scorpius.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm

KUALA LUMPUR: There is no conclusive evidence to confirm that Russia was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Malaysian transport minister Anthony Loke said on Wednesday (May 30).

Investigators probing the 2014 downing of flight MH17 said last Thursday for the first time that the missile which brought down the plane over eastern Ukraine originated from a Russian military brigade. All 298 people onboard died.

Speaking to Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday, Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."


https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/no-conclusive-evidence-russia-behind-mh17-downing-malaysia-10290266
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 5:47 pm

Scorpius wrote:
KUALA LUMPUR: There is no conclusive evidence to confirm that Russia was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Malaysian transport minister Anthony Loke said on Wednesday (May 30).

Investigators probing the 2014 downing of flight MH17 said last Thursday for the first time that the missile which brought down the plane over eastern Ukraine originated from a Russian military brigade. All 298 people onboard died.

Speaking to Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday, Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."


https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/no-conclusive-evidence-russia-behind-mh17-downing-malaysia-10290266


Like the article says: it was a Russian military missile, that is the conclusion of the JIT and that clearly points to Russia, don't you think. Russia is responsible for its part in the downing of MH17. The only question is how big this responsibility is, if Russian military man did push the button or under their responsibility.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 7:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
KUALA LUMPUR: There is no conclusive evidence to confirm that Russia was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Malaysian transport minister Anthony Loke said on Wednesday (May 30).

Investigators probing the 2014 downing of flight MH17 said last Thursday for the first time that the missile which brought down the plane over eastern Ukraine originated from a Russian military brigade. All 298 people onboard died.

Speaking to Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday, Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."


https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/no-conclusive-evidence-russia-behind-mh17-downing-malaysia-10290266


Like the article says: it was a Russian military missile, that is the conclusion of the JIT and that clearly points to Russia, don't you think. Russia is responsible for its part in the downing of MH17. The only question is how big this responsibility is, if Russian military man did push the button or under their responsibility.

As I said before, the ownership of the Russian missile does not mean anything at all. All BUK missiles were launched in Russia. I'm not aware of any missiles manufactured outside of Russia. JIT didn't have to spend four years to find out what the missile was made in Russia
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 7:37 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
KUALA LUMPUR: There is no conclusive evidence to confirm that Russia was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Malaysian transport minister Anthony Loke said on Wednesday (May 30).

Investigators probing the 2014 downing of flight MH17 said last Thursday for the first time that the missile which brought down the plane over eastern Ukraine originated from a Russian military brigade. All 298 people onboard died.

Speaking to Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday, Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."


https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/no-conclusive-evidence-russia-behind-mh17-downing-malaysia-10290266


Like the article says: it was a Russian military missile, that is the conclusion of the JIT and that clearly points to Russia, don't you think. Russia is responsible for its part in the downing of MH17. The only question is how big this responsibility is, if Russian military man did push the button or under their responsibility.

As I said before, the ownership of the Russian missile does not mean anything at all. All BUK missiles were launched in Russia. I'm not aware of any missiles manufactured outside of Russia. JIT didn't have to spend four years to find out what the missile was made in Russia


As I said before, the JIT didn't say produced, they said owned by the Russian military, so it says everything. It implicates Russia in this tragedy directly, for the first time. That's why the Dutch and Australian government have held Russia responsible.

So you are flat wrong to think that the JIT said the missile was produced in Russia, that is of non-importance of course.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 31, 2018 7:46 pm

The Dutch government doesn't rule out that it will also hold Ukraine responsible for the MH17 tragedy. The reason is of course, in line with the results of the accident investigation board, not closing the airspace above the Russian backed rebels.

Minister Stef Blok of Foreign Affairs does not rule out that in the future the Netherlands will also hold Ukraine liable for the collapse of flight MH17.
"There is no hard legal ground for this, but the Cabinet does not rule out anything", said Blok Thursday during the debate on the Cabinet decision to hold Russia liable for the collapse of flight MH17.

Ukraine, as it turned out, had to close its airspace. In the days before the MH17 disaster in July 2014, several air battles took place over the eastern part of Ukraine. For example, a Ukrainian military cargo plane was shot down at a great height.


In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/politiek/5292596/blok ... -niet.html
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
...

hehe.

Seen the last installment of Russian harassment of poor Ukraine yet?

"BAD BAD Russians killed our poor RU critical journalist" all exposed as jsut another fake.
I suppose they didn't expect exposure that fast. They should have done a real false flag
not just pretend the journo was killed.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:38 pm

WIederling wrote:
I suppose they didn't expect exposure that fast.


I expect them that they were going to be fully exposed when they decided to go on live TV to tell all. But that is just a guess. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:27 pm

So ultimately it was Ukraine's fault:

https://www.rt.com/news/428454-dutch-fm-mh17-ukraine/

So that makes it all these parties against the ruling party :)

Malaysian Transport Minister Anthony Loke questioned the interim findings, arguing there was “no conclusive evidence” to pin the blame on Russia.


https://www.rt.com/news/428482-no-proof-russia-mh17/
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:10 pm

Balerit wrote:
So ultimately it was Ukraine's fault:

https://www.rt.com/news/428454-dutch-fm-mh17-ukraine/

So that makes it all these parties against the ruling party :)

Malaysian Transport Minister Anthony Loke questioned the interim findings, arguing there was “no conclusive evidence” to pin the blame on Russia.


https://www.rt.com/news/428482-no-proof-russia-mh17/


RT = Russia Today = Propaganda from the Kremlin. Enough said.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
Balerit wrote:
So ultimately it was Ukraine's fault:

https://www.rt.com/news/428454-dutch-fm-mh17-ukraine/

So that makes it all these parties against the ruling party :)

Malaysian Transport Minister Anthony Loke questioned the interim findings, arguing there was “no conclusive evidence” to pin the blame on Russia.


https://www.rt.com/news/428482-no-proof-russia-mh17/


RT = Russia Today = Propaganda from the Kremlin. Enough said.


RT quoted from AFP, which means Agence France-Presse, me 6 you 0
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:14 pm

Balerit wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Balerit wrote:
So ultimately it was Ukraine's fault:

https://www.rt.com/news/428454-dutch-fm-mh17-ukraine/

So that makes it all these parties against the ruling party :)



https://www.rt.com/news/428482-no-proof-russia-mh17/


RT = Russia Today = Propaganda from the Kremlin. Enough said.


RT quoted from AFP, which means Agence France-Presse, me 6 you 0


Framing is an art for RT. Look at the difference between the Nu.nl article I posted about the possible accusation from the Dutch government against Ukraine and what Russia Today writes about it. That's why RT isn't media, they are a propaganda channel for Putin and everybody knows that and that's why they aren't taken seriously except someone whom shares the agenda of RT.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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hansschmulke
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
Off topic and whataboutism: we are talking about the MH17 missile that was proven to be of Russian military stock.

I'm rather curious as to where, and by whom it was proven that the missile in question was taken from the Russian military stockpile? Because that can be conclusively proven in precisely two ways:
[list=]By asking GRAU to fork over appropriate records. Each missile leaves a long paper trail in double-entry 'bookkeeping' system; Russian MoD knows all basic information about every missile in Ukrainian or any other ex-Soviet republic arsenal, including serial numbers.
By finding out photo- or video material depicting a missile of the same production batch as the one that was used to shoot down MH17. [/list]

As of today the Dutch had no decisive luck by following either of the aforementioned ways. I apologize for issuing unsolicited advices, but you might want to consider separating political bullshit, in which the JIT is currently partaking by airing the preliminary reports that are not backed with any kind of substantial evidence, from actual findings of the investigation. There's substantial difference between the two, especially considering the conundrum with markings on casing and venturi.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:32 am

Thank you hansschmulke, for the official Russian point of view.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:56 am

hansschmulke wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Off topic and whataboutism: we are talking about the MH17 missile that was proven to be of Russian military stock.

I'm rather curious as to where, and by whom it was proven that the missile in question was taken from the Russian military stockpile? Because that can be conclusively proven in precisely two ways:
[list=]By asking GRAU to fork over appropriate records. Each missile leaves a long paper trail in double-entry 'bookkeeping' system; Russian MoD knows all basic information about every missile in Ukrainian or any other ex-Soviet republic arsenal, including serial numbers.
By finding out photo- or video material depicting a missile of the same production batch as the one that was used to shoot down MH17. [/list]

As of today the Dutch had no decisive luck by following either of the aforementioned ways. I apologize for issuing unsolicited advices, but you might want to consider separating political bullshit, in which the JIT is currently partaking by airing the preliminary reports that are not backed with any kind of substantial evidence, from actual findings of the investigation. There's substantial difference between the two, especially considering the conundrum with markings on casing and venturi.


So the first post you decided to make is a post about MH17 casting doubt about the JIT without any evidence if I may add. It is indeed quite easy to cast doubts, make some assertions and say they didn't follow those, shame on them. JIT is an independent prosecutors office and I have no reason to doubt them. So if they say, for the first time, that it was a Russian missile, it was a Russian missile until proven otherwise. But we will see in court.

But welcome..... hopefully you will make some more constructive posts.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
But welcome..... hopefully you will make some more constructive posts.


Don't count on it. User name is actually telling a lot -- Hans Schmulke is a name of a spoof character, an absolutely useless tank crew member, from a comedy show "Iron Kaput", detailing idiocies and failures of an imagined German WWI supertank crew somewhere in Africa. This show graced post-Soviet TV's in 1990s, and is still remembered.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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hansschmulke
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
hansschmulke wrote:
So the first post you decided to make is a post about MH17 casting doubt about the JIT without any evidence if I may add. It is indeed quite easy to cast doubts, make some assertions and say they didn't follow those, shame on them. JIT is an independent prosecutors office and I have no reason to doubt them. So if they say, for the first time, that it was a Russian missile, it was a Russian missile until proven otherwise. But we will see in court.

But welcome..... hopefully you will make some more constructive posts.

I find I fascinating that you ask me to disprove your claim by providing evidence instead of providing me with nice little citation of the appropriate report of JIT saying that they indeed identified the missile as you claim. For future reference, they didn't, at least not yet. Atm they aren't even sure do the parts they managed to collect on site, casing and venturi, belong to the same missile or not. Not that I blame them considering the circumstances.

Thing is, it is quite certain that the parts in question could either belong to two separate missiles, or a single missile that underwent rather sloppy, 'unofficial' life-extension procedures in 2005, most likely using cannibalized parts of another missile. Everyone capable of reading serial numbers of the parts in question and is familiar with the procedure can confirm that right off the bat, no questions asked. If the Dutch succeed to rule out the former version, the latter version points firmly towards the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In 2005 there was a corruption scandal involving life-extension of 48 live 9M38M1 surface-to-air missiles, which were simply refurbished in 65th Arsenal(Balakleya) who knows how and using what kind of parts, instead of having their NSS extended.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:45 am

Scorpius wrote:
KUALA LUMPUR: There is no conclusive evidence to confirm that Russia was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Malaysian transport minister Anthony Loke said on Wednesday (May 30).

Investigators probing the 2014 downing of flight MH17 said last Thursday for the first time that the missile which brought down the plane over eastern Ukraine originated from a Russian military brigade. All 298 people onboard died.

Speaking to Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday, Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."


https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/no-conclusive-evidence-russia-behind-mh17-downing-malaysia-10290266


Anthony Loke is the very newly appointed Minister of Transport. I wouldn't hold his words as being definitive.

Russia should just punish the people in question & say so out loud. Otherwise this thing is going to go on for a long time. Just punish the drunk dumb bastards & pay restitution to the families of those involved. How bloody hard is that?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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hansschmulke
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:44 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Anthony Loke is the very newly appointed Minister of Transport. I wouldn't hold his words as being definitive.

His words cannot be definitive by default, simply because investigation is far from being over. His words merely indicate that the claim of JIT regarding alleged culpability of Russian Federation in this disaster isn't based on conclusive evidence. It's one of the hypotheses they are working on; nothing more, nothing else.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Russia should just punish the people in question & say so out loud. Otherwise this thing is going to go on for a long time. Just punish the drunk dumb bastards & pay restitution to the families of those involved. How bloody hard is that?

Of course it's going to go on for a long time. Moreover, by now the JIT has no credibility whatsoever in Russian professional Air Defense circles. There are reasons to that, which can be boiled down to 'what they are saying on this or that crucial issue does not make any sense, or seems just wrong'.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:03 am

hansschmulke wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Russia should just punish the people in question & say so out loud. Otherwise this thing is going to go on for a long time. Just punish the drunk dumb bastards & pay restitution to the families of those involved. How bloody hard is that?

Of course it's going to go on for a long time. Moreover, by now the JIT has no credibility whatsoever in Russian professional Air Defense circles. There are reasons to that, which can be boiled down to 'what they are saying on this or that crucial issue does not make any sense, or seems just wrong'.


So mister, quite a bold statement, could you provide some proof or is it just you demanding proof and you don't have to deliver any? Frankly, I don't care what the suspect things about the institution investigating them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am

hansschmulke wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
hansschmulke wrote:
So the first post you decided to make is a post about MH17 casting doubt about the JIT without any evidence if I may add. It is indeed quite easy to cast doubts, make some assertions and say they didn't follow those, shame on them. JIT is an independent prosecutors office and I have no reason to doubt them. So if they say, for the first time, that it was a Russian missile, it was a Russian missile until proven otherwise. But we will see in court.

But welcome..... hopefully you will make some more constructive posts.

I find I fascinating that you ask me to disprove your claim by providing evidence instead of providing me with nice little citation of the appropriate report of JIT saying that they indeed identified the missile as you claim. For future reference, they didn't, at least not yet. Atm they aren't even sure do the parts they managed to collect on site, casing and venturi, belong to the same missile or not. Not that I blame them considering the circumstances.

Thing is, it is quite certain that the parts in question could either belong to two separate missiles, or a single missile that underwent rather sloppy, 'unofficial' life-extension procedures in 2005, most likely using cannibalized parts of another missile. Everyone capable of reading serial numbers of the parts in question and is familiar with the procedure can confirm that right off the bat, no questions asked. If the Dutch succeed to rule out the former version, the latter version points firmly towards the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In 2005 there was a corruption scandal involving life-extension of 48 live 9M38M1 surface-to-air missiles, which were simply refurbished in 65th Arsenal(Balakleya) who knows how and using what kind of parts, instead of having their NSS extended.


Yup, you are beating the Russian troll army drum. JIT made a press announcement that it was a Russian missile for sure. How hard is that to understand? If you take this conclusion not on face value, fine, but disprove the JIT otherwise take these independent prosecutors on face value and we will see in court what happens. You have no credibility whatsoever, just creating an account to post in this thread to cast some doubts.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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