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salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 5:35 pm

As far as you know.

Damn, the a.net post placement bug strikes again.
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 5:36 pm

777Jet wrote:
Russian photoshoped image.


Afaik the guy who produced those photoshops was US or Canada.
Rus TV like any dumb Journo goobbled it up hook and sinker .-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 5:56 pm

N14AZ wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
They said it wasn't them.

I don’t remember if this is part of Russia‘s official position but this was broadcasted on Russian TV.
Image


Taken from a satellite, those would be enormous aircraft. Without doing the math and just a Quick look how large fields in the area are, and that is a big freaking 1000 yard or so MIG 29.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 6:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Balerit wrote:
alfa164 wrote:



We would be happy to look at facts. Unfortunately, you are perpetuating lies. No have no facts at all.


Where are your facts, the video? Well look at 1:19 on the video clearly not the same photo, sign post in wrong position, as is the photo at 1:25 where the font size is different on the sign. I could go on ad infinitum but it'll take two hours. Secondly there seems to be more than one convoy shown as not all trucks are the same or carrying the same equipment.

Did you even study my link? Are you disputing the age of the missile or the fact that ATC requested that said plane alter course? Can you prove anything in that video, say the direction of the vehicles for instance or do you just accept what the narrator is saying?

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pilots-of-air-india-plane-heard-ukraine-atc-asking-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-to-change-direction-2004730

You might want to read this as well:

https://off-guardian.org/2015/08/29/mh17-one-year-on-what-really-happened-and-why/


Did you read the official results of the investigation into this and the interim reports from the JIT? Scanned your articles and most is proven false and hes been dealt with in the official investigations.


Have you got links to where my articles are proved to be false? All you have produced is supposition and wouldn't even be accepted into testimony. As easy as you dismiss my info I dismiss your disinfo, provide direct proof please - maybe a picture of the actual missile being launched or even a smoke trail. I think you have become too blinded and one sided just because it's your country running the investigation, maybe it's time to take a step backwards, maybe subconsciously you feel that the evidence is poor and you're scared your country will look like idiots so you're trying hard to convince us otherwise.

Here is some food for thought posted by

Siddharth
Answered Mar 21, 2016

Contrary to the popular notion that Russian backed rebels in East Ukraine were behind this, the case is fraught with uncertainties, lack of transparency and inconsistencies with the Dutch investigation, US and Russian accounts.

It still is unclear who was behind this, despite the Dutch Safety Board having conducted an investigation and releasing its final report last October.

But first let's backtrack a bit, shall we.

MH17 goes down on 17th July, 2014.

Secretary of State John Kerry goes ballistic and starts pinpointing towards Russian backed rebels as the source of that fateful missile that killed those unfortunate 298 people. On 20th July he goes on four major news shows to make his case against Russia.

On ABC's This Week with Stephanopoulos, he says

Russia has armed the separatists. Russia has supported the separatists. Russia has trained the separatists. Russia continues to refuse to call publicly for the separatists to engage in behavior that would lend itself to a resolution of this issue. And the fact is that only a few weeks ago, a convoy of 150 vehicles of artillery, armored personnel carriers, multiple rocket launchers, tanks crossed over from Russia into this area, and these items were all turned over to the separatists.

Interview With George Stephanopoulos of ABC's This Week

Keep in mind Secretary Kerry's remarks about supplies and weaponry towards the rebels from Russia. Interestingly enough it doesn't mention at all from where did this Buk missile system get in the hands of those who shot the plane. Neither does the "government assessment" released by the Director of National Intelligence. Both, Kerry and the report make the assertion that the plane was downed by a Buk missile system (SA-11) fired by Russian backed rebels. But they why do they both fail to mention that in the list of items Russia is supposed to have supplied to the rebels?

Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150
vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and
multiple rocket launchers to the separatist.

Georgia - Embassy of the United States

The bulk of the case made against Russia in Kerry's media appearances on 20th and 21st July came from analyses of "social media". I find the idea that the country which spends more money just on its intel budget than India does on its entire military has to rely on "social media" reports to base a very serious charge against another country in the early time of the investigation to be very funny. Why would they all have to rely on "social media"? Unless, if the intelligence analysts had either evidence that didn't fit in with the political agenda of Kerry, or they possessed no evidence at all. Anyway, I digress.

Moving on, another assertion made by Secretary Kerry was that "we picked up the imagery of this launch. We know the trajectory. We know where it came from. We know the timing, and it was exactly at the time that this aircraft disappeared from the radar." Interview With David Gregory of NBC's Meet the Press

So the US, in the words of Kerry possessed precise knowledge as to who fired the missile, and where it came from. Great!

Then why on earth did the Dutch Safety Board which was leading the investigation of the MH17 crash not consider the evidence Kerry so tellingly pointed out back on 20th July, 2014?

Q: Can it be clarified which United States radar and satellite data has been received?

A: The Safety Board has not requested radar data from the US (see table 8 of the report “MH17 Crash”). With regard to satellite data, the Safety Board is bound to secrecy.

Six Takeaways from Today's Dutch Safety Board MH17 Response - bellingcat

Another inconsistency lay with the claims made by the Safety Board itself. Along with the report of the Safety Board, Dutch intelligence released its report into what information it possessed about Eastern Ukraine that could have prevented the plane from going down. Its assertions directly contradicted one of the claims of the Safety Board that the plane was taken down by a Buk missile fired from a region which was supposed to be under the control of the Russian backed rebels.

On 29 June 2014, the Separatists captured a Ukrainian armed forces military base in Donetsk. At this base, there were Buk missile systems. These are powerful anti-aircraft systems. The development was reported extensively in the media prior to the crash. The MIVD also received intelligence information on the subject on 30 June and 3 July as well as on other dates. During the course of July, several reliable sources indicated that the systems that were at the military base were not operational. Therefore, they could not be used by the Separatists.

Review Report arising from the crash of flight MH17

And in the same report, it is mentioned that the rebels possessed only MANPADS and short-range vehicle-borne air defence systems, both of which lacked the range to target an airliner.

So basically the only player in Eastern Ukraine that possessed operational Buk missile systems was the Ukrainian military. This goes against the Dutch Safety Board's own conclusion that the plane was targeted by a Buk missile operated by Russian backed rebels.

The report also tallies with the supplies list contained in the assessment released by the DNI which leaves out the Buk missile systems. So if the Russians didn't supply it to the rebels, and the ones in Donetsk military base weren't operational, and the plane was indeed targeted by a Buk missile, then it does prove that the rebels were in fact not behind the targeting of the MH17, disproving what Secretary Kerry was talking about.

Why hasn't the US released any evidence besides the very lousy "social media" based assessment despite it being almost 1.5 years since the plane crash? Reporters who reached out to the DNI asking whether it had any updates to its initial assessment, were told to refer to the same one which was released in 2014. If Kerry's assertion, (and what seems to be the conventional wisdom now) that the Russian backed rebels were behind the crash, is true then would it not be a coup de grace for Washington to show its conclusive evidence (which it most likely possesses) and walk away with having told everyone so?

Irony abounds.

Another interesting thing that just "conveniently" happened was that US had passed the third round of sanctions on Russia merely days before the MH17 unfortunately was shot down. The Europeans were very hesitant about going along with US this time, as business was taking a serious hit. And then viola! MH17 "sacrifices" itself, convinces the European community that the Russians are one bunch of "barbarians", and the sanctions pass.

The crash created a legitimacy in the eyes of the European governments to argue against the growing concerns in the business communities about more sanctions on Russia being counter-productive.

Given the undermining of the official "narrative" by the intelligence, the peculiar pin dropped silence in Washington, and weird behavior on part of the Ukrainian ATC in Boryspil to not release its radar data and the deviation of MH17 from its path which took it over the conflict zone in Donetsk, it is quite obvious that the 298 unfortunate people in MH17 looking forward to their holidays in Bali and Malaysia, were caught in something which is far more sensitive than Moscow and Washington are letting on.

We shall, of course eventually find out what really happened, but it will be a few decades before the truth comes out. But one thing is quite clear: the case against the rebels is quite weak.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 6:44 pm

Balerit wrote:
Have you got links to where my articles are proved to be false?


He posted links to the current state of findings, which happen to be the end result after considering exactly what you bring up, you have to disprove the report first, before he has to do anything. That report is as peer reviewed as it gets, you just have articles, which by that peer review obviously can be dismissed.

Russia is responsible, denial at this stage is like insisting earth is just 10k years old.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
alfa164
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 7:32 pm

Balerit wrote:
Did you even study my link? Are you disputing the age of the missile or the fact that ATC requested that said plane alter course? Can you prove anything in that video, say the direction of the vehicles for instance or do you just accept what the narrator is saying?
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pilots-of-air-india-plane-heard-ukraine-atc-asking-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-to-change-direction-2004730


And what is your point? To quote from the article: "Aerotelegraph.com reports that just a few minutes before the crash, both flights received permission for deviating from the planned route. Since the two flights were flying very close to each other, the Ukrainian Air Traffic controller asked the MH17 pilot to contact the Air India pilot. The Boeing 777 was given permission to change route, but it soon disappeared from radar and could not be contacted by the Air India aircraft. "A linear route saves time and fuel, so pilots prefer this option. When the pilots of Air India learned about the fate of MH17, they were shocked. It's as if your colleague was killed by a sniper near you," said a source to another newspaper."

So MH17, like so many flights, asked and received permission to deviate from its planned course to a more linear course - to save time and fuel. Did you even read the article yourself?

Balerit wrote:


That is laughable! "Off-Guardian"... "In November 2016, the site was listed by PropOrNot as one of its list of 200 "Fake News" websites."

Even Russian trolls should do better than come up with a source like that! Next, you will be citing something in Wikipedia... that you wrote yourself...

tommy1808 wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Have you got links to where my articles are proved to be false?


He posted links to the current state of findings, which happen to be the end result after considering exactly what you bring up, you have to disprove the report first, before he has to do anything. That report is as peer reviewed as it gets, you just have articles, which by that peer review obviously can be dismissed. Russia is responsible, denial at this stage is like insisting earth is just 10k years old.
Best regards
Thomas


Or insisting the earth is flat... and Russia is the flattest part. ;)

These guys just don't seem to understand that any thinking person is laughing at them...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 7:44 pm

Balerit wrote:
Have you got links to where my articles are proved to be false? All you have produced is supposition and wouldn't even be accepted into testimony. As easy as you dismiss my info I dismiss your disinfo, provide direct proof please - maybe a picture of the actual missile being launched or even a smoke trail. I think you have become too blinded and one sided just because it's your country running the investigation, maybe it's time to take a step backwards, maybe subconsciously you feel that the evidence is poor and you're scared your country will look like idiots so you're trying hard to convince us otherwise.


Ok, thanks that you make clear that you think the official investigation by the independent services of several countries you can easily dismiss as disinformation. And that is the whole point of Russian propaganda, intentionally or not, paid or not, put in some shady website with some information on it by an amateur or intentionally disinformation and put that at the same level of an official investigation of dozens professionals with access to the latest information, classified or not and the latest techniques.

Are you Russian or just a random conspiracy believer? You have shown your true colors.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 8:41 am

The official investigation started with a result - Russia did it - then they proceeded to prove that point by using social media :roll: Peer review you say, well most of the peers disagree with the JIT outcome so that makes us conspiracy theorists, Russian trolls etc., :lol: Maybe, just maybe you should zoom out and look at the big picture and you will see that this is all part of a plan starting with these false flag attacks. Luckily I'm in a neutral country far far away and it is easy seeing the big picture for what it really is. Anyway good luck with US/NATO taking over Europe, hope it all works out for you.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 8:52 am

Sure, Balerit, could you name 3 peer sources, credible and all with sources materials etc. etc. etc. which come to your false flag conclusions.

Have fun looking at your version of the big picture :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 9:24 am

Balerit wrote:
Maybe, just maybe you should zoom out and look at the big picture and you will see that this is all part of a plan starting with these false flag attacks.


If it had been a false flag Russia would have fully cooperated instead of cooking up phantom SU-25s or terrible Photoshops of mile long 777.
Fun part is that they didn't even come up with halfway credible lies, they knew they didn't need to for the audience they address, and making up stuff that is fairly simple to see through to fuel the divisiveness they want.
Hopefully the Dutch have the guts for Operation "Bayonet" part 2.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 11:04 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Hopefully the Dutch have the guts for Operation "Bayonet" part 2.


you mean the one that was also called: "Operation Wrath of God" ?

( I seem to remember that the "sat image, Su 777" mashup was done b a canuk blogger
inserted into some freeper like discussion site. Made its way from there to Rus TV.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 11:28 am

WIederling wrote:
( I seem to remember that the "sat image, Su 777" mashup was done b a canuk blogger
inserted into some freeper like discussion site. Made its way from there to Rus TV.)

The source of the disinformation doesn't really matter because it is the responsibility of all states to cooperate with the investigation and give any information they might have. Instead the Russian state is itself actively involved in the disinformation campaign and encourages the not-so-free media to present fake news. Only to come with another false story once one of the lies has been discredited. I am sorry but Russia has lost all credibility. (not saying you are arguing either way so thanks for sharing what you remember).

And of course Trump and the US media do the exact same thing, that's disgusting also. Even the Dutch prime-minister and media like to twist the truth a bit every now and then when it comes to other subjects. Sometimes a some strange theory about a plane crash or the wrong picture published on this forum also makes it to the media, shit happens but serious media and authorities should correct this.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 12:37 pm

RJWNL wrote:
And of course Trump and the US media do the exact same thing, that's disgusting also.
Not the same thing. The US media isn't orchestrated. Parts of it are (FOX & Breitbart and a few others I suppose), other parts of US media are partially orchestrated (WSJ, NYT on some subjects and a few others.)

But most of the US media are just whores seeking higher ratings. Unfortunately, one of the ways to keep ratings high is to tell the people what they want to hear. The net result is not perfect, but if someone wants the truth and is willing to do their own thinking, it's all out there.

The Russian media is out and out orchestrated.
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 3:32 pm

salttee wrote:
people what they want to hear. The net result is not perfect, but if someone wants the truth and is willing to do their own thinking, it's all out there..


Whatever. The result nonetheless is fascistic lockstep.
Followed years later by a "oh, sorry, we've been misled, shame on us but we'll keep the profits".
embedding is terribly effective media control.
Murphy is an optimist
 
alfa164
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 3:54 pm

WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
people what they want to hear. The net result is not perfect, but if someone wants the truth and is willing to do their own thinking, it's all out there..

Whatever. The result nonetheless is fascistic lockstep. Followed years later by a "oh, sorry, we've been misled, shame on us but we'll keep the profits". embedding is terribly effective media control.


Misled... like when Russia denied it shot down Korea 007... and then later admitted it.

Misled...like when Russia denied having soldiers behind the Crimea takeover... then later admitted it.

Misled... like when Russia said there were no "little green men" in Ukraine... then later admitted it?

Misled... like when Russia claimed it had no role in the poisoning of various opponents of Putin... even though the poison used in each case could have only originated from Russian stocks?

You mean "misled" in these ways?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 4:15 pm

Balerit wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Maybe, just maybe you should zoom out and look at the big picture and you will see that this is all part of a plan starting with these false flag attacks.


If it had been a false flag Russia would have fully cooperated instead of cooking up phantom SU-25s or terrible Photoshops of mile long 777.
Fun part is that they didn't even come up with halfway credible lies, they knew they didn't need to for the audience they address, and making up stuff that is fairly simple to see through to fuel the divisiveness they want.
Hopefully the Dutch have the guts for Operation "Bayonet" part 2.

Best regards
Thomas


But Russia did co-operate by giving their radar data but JIT didn't have people clever enough to interpret the data and they wouldn't allow Russia to help with the investigation. Why won't Ukrainian ATC release transcripts of the recording between them and the aircraft? The fact that almost all the info in the JIT/Bellingcat video is a lie which is easily proven shows that they are not interested in the truth. The serial and part numbers of the missile clearly show that it was made in 1986 and hadn't been in the Russian inventory for ages, in fact the only country with that part was Ukraine. "Cui bono always matters. Moscow and breakaway Donbass fighters, unwilling to live under fascist rule, had nothing to gain from the incident, plenty to lose". End of discussion.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, show us your prove, wrong, show us your prove, wrong, wrong, wrong. Believe whatever you want to believe, end of discussion.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 4:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Maybe, just maybe you should zoom out and look at the big picture and you will see that this is all part of a plan starting with these false flag attacks.


If it had been a false flag Russia would have fully cooperated instead of cooking up phantom SU-25s or terrible Photoshops of mile long 777.
Fun part is that they didn't even come up with halfway credible lies, they knew they didn't need to for the audience they address, and making up stuff that is fairly simple to see through to fuel the divisiveness they want.
Hopefully the Dutch have the guts for Operation "Bayonet" part 2.

Best regards
Thomas


But Russia did co-operate by giving their radar data but JIT didn't have people clever enough to interpret the data and they wouldn't allow Russia to help with the investigation. Why won't Ukrainian ATC release transcripts of the recording between them and the aircraft? The fact that almost all the info in the JIT/Bellingcat video is a lie which is easily proven shows that they are not interested in the truth. The serial and part numbers of the missile clearly show that it was made in 1986 and hadn't been in the Russian inventory for ages, in fact the only country with that part was Ukraine. "Cui bono always matters. Moscow and breakaway Donbass fighters, unwilling to live under fascist rule, had nothing to gain from the incident, plenty to lose". End of discussion.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 5:23 pm

Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 9:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


Nice try but no cigar. It's based in California and publishes many articles by prominent professors, journalists and researchers that don't get covered by main stream media. I'm sure the government would have closed it down long ago if it was Russian.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sun May 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Prominent yet not covered :lol:

Not that I am aware of, so could you name me five sites which were closed down by Canada (.ca extension) because they were Russian,

This is globalresarch for you: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch

Globalresearch is an "anti-Western" website that can't distinguish between serious analysis and discreditable junk — and so publishes both. It's basically the moonbat equivalent to Infowars or WND.

While some of GlobalResearch's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian concerns, its view of science, economics, and geopolitics is conspiracist — if something goes wrong, the Jews West didit! The site has long been a crank magnet: If you disagree with "Western" sources on 9/11, or HAARP, or vaccines, or H1N1, or climate change, or anything published by the "mainstream" media, then GlobalResearch is guaranteed to have a page you will love.


So now we know how serious to take your comments since you say this is a reputable site. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
NIKV69
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 12:46 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Breaking news...

It was first assumed (also here on a.nut) that Russia handed over some missiles and a launcher to rebels, who then used the deadly apparatus in a hillbilly way. The TELAR does have a radar, but not one that can properly distinguish targets.

Now there is evidence that the Buk missiles were part of a Russian convoy. It was not operated/kept by pro-Russian rebels: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402


David


We all kind of knew this right after it happened.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 1:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


I can confirm this is well known. Not all Russian propaganda is coming directly out of Russia, but indirectly yes. Like zerohedge.

I hope someday Russia will stop acting so irresponsibly on the global stage.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
Prominent yet not covered :lol:

Not that I am aware of, so could you name me five sites which were closed down by Canada (.ca extension) because they were Russian,

This is globalresarch for you: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch

Globalresearch is an "anti-Western" website that can't distinguish between serious analysis and discreditable junk — and so publishes both. It's basically the moonbat equivalent to Infowars or WND.

While some of GlobalResearch's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian concerns, its view of science, economics, and geopolitics is conspiracist — if something goes wrong, the Jews West didit! The site has long been a crank magnet: If you disagree with "Western" sources on 9/11, or HAARP, or vaccines, or H1N1, or climate change, or anything published by the "mainstream" media, then GlobalResearch is guaranteed to have a page you will love.


So now we know how serious to take your comments since you say this is a reputable site. :lol:


“Anti-western” isn’t yet Russian.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:43 am

Jouhou wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


I can confirm this is well known. Not all Russian propaganda is coming directly out of Russia, but indirectly yes. Like zerohedge.

I hope someday Russia will stop acting so irresponsibly on the global stage.


I think the USA should also stop acting not only irresponsibly, but recklessly - bombing other countries, supply terrorist groups with weapons, undermine and disbalance global economy with all these sanctions and threats of those.
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 7:25 am

Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


Ah, easy thinking : "propaganda site". :-)

You better disprove their theory.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 7:37 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


Ah, easy thinking : "propaganda site". :-)

You better disprove their theory.


Ok, ALL the research that was done by the Aircraft Accident investigation board and the JIT. Anything else?
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 7:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


I can confirm this is well known. Not all Russian propaganda is coming directly out of Russia, but indirectly yes. Like zerohedge.

I hope someday Russia will stop acting so irresponsibly on the global stage.


I think the USA should also stop acting not only irresponsibly, but recklessly - bombing other countries, supply terrorist groups with weapons, undermine and disbalance global economy with all these sanctions and threats of those.


Off topic and whataboutism: we are talking about the MH17 missile that was proven to be of Russian military stock.
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 11:34 am

It's a pity that Robert Parry has died, he was one of the most respected journalists who often published on Global Research and you could have asked him. There are many others but I suppose you'll say they were Russian influenced.

ps. I forgot that .ca was Canada.
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 11:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Thank you, globalresearch.ca is a well known Russian propaganda site.


Ah, easy thinking : "propaganda site". :-)

You better disprove their theory.


Ok, ALL the research that was done by the Aircraft Accident investigation board and the JIT. Anything else?


And you trust them, why? Who has the bigger propaganda machine, Russia or the West? I rest my case.
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 12:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, show us your prove, wrong, show us your prove, wrong, wrong, wrong. Believe whatever you want to believe, end of discussion.

"Stated "does not mean 'proven', Dutchy. You're spreading false information again.
Перевести вGoogleBingAmong other things, JIT did not provide any information about the location of the wreckage, nor about how they got to JIT. In addition, as I said, the serial numbers of the wreckage do not match each other - the engine is released much later than the body. The Kropus looks remarkably intact for a detail that survived the explosion and then fell from a height of 10 kilometers. And finally, this rocket, produced in 1986, has expired in 2011, 3 years before the MH17 crash. This missile, according to all the rules and regulations adopted in the Russian army, had to be disposed of or shot at the exercises in 2011-2012. Given that the data fragments JIT submitted only after almost four years of investigation, as well as these inconsistencies and inconsistencies of technical information, there are very big doubts about the authenticity of the "evidence". It is for this reason that I say that JIT is trying to fabricate the evidence for accusing Russia of the mh17 crash. That is about any reallyAmong other things, JIT did not provide any information about the location of the wreckage, nor about how they got to JIT. In addition, as I said, the serial numbers of the wreckage do not match each other - the engine is released much later than the body. The Kropus looks remarkably intact for a detail that survived the explosion and then fell from a height of 10 kilometers. And finally, this rocket, produced in 1986, has expired in 2011, 3 years before the mh17 disaster. This missile, according to all the rules and regulations adopted in the Russian army, had to be disposed of or shot at the exercises in 2011-2012. Given that the data fragments JIT submitted only after almost four years of investigation, as well as these inconsistencies and inconsistencies of technical information, there are very big doubts about the authenticity of the "evidence". It is for this reason that I say that JIT is trying to fabricate the evidence for accusing Russia of the MH17 crash
Перевести вGoogleBingThat is, no real investigation into the circumstances of the crash is out of the question even after 4 years after the events. And this is indirect evidence that MH17 was shot down intentionally, that it was an action aimed at discrediting Russia.That is, no real investigation into the circumstances of the crash is out of the question even after 4 years after the events. And this is indirect evidence that MH17 was shot down intentionally, that it was an action aimed at discrediting Russia.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 12:56 pm

Balerit wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Ah, easy thinking : "propaganda site". :-)

You better disprove their theory.


Ok, ALL the research that was done by the Aircraft Accident investigation board and the JIT. Anything else?


And you trust them, why? Who has the bigger propaganda machine, Russia or the West? I rest my case.


Haha, indeed rest your case, the answer is obvious to anyone without an agenda.

Why do I trust them? Why not? Would be my question back. Th Dutch prosecutors office has an excellent reputation for being independent.
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 1:04 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, show us your prove, wrong, show us your prove, wrong, wrong, wrong. Believe whatever you want to believe, end of discussion.

"Stated "does not mean 'proven', Dutchy. You're spreading false information again.
Перевести вGoogleBingAmong other things, JIT did not provide any information about the location of the wreckage, nor about how they got to JIT. In addition, as I said, the serial numbers of the wreckage do not match each other - the engine is released much later than the body. The Kropus looks remarkably intact for a detail that survived the explosion and then fell from a height of 10 kilometers. And finally, this rocket, produced in 1986, has expired in 2011, 3 years before the MH17 crash. This missile, according to all the rules and regulations adopted in the Russian army, had to be disposed of or shot at the exercises in 2011-2012. Given that the data fragments JIT submitted only after almost four years of investigation, as well as these inconsistencies and inconsistencies of technical information, there are very big doubts about the authenticity of the "evidence". It is for this reason that I say that JIT is trying to fabricate the evidence for accusing Russia of the mh17 crash. That is about any reallyAmong other things, JIT did not provide any information about the location of the wreckage, nor about how they got to JIT. In addition, as I said, the serial numbers of the wreckage do not match each other - the engine is released much later than the body. The Kropus looks remarkably intact for a detail that survived the explosion and then fell from a height of 10 kilometers. And finally, this rocket, produced in 1986, has expired in 2011, 3 years before the mh17 disaster. This missile, according to all the rules and regulations adopted in the Russian army, had to be disposed of or shot at the exercises in 2011-2012. Given that the data fragments JIT submitted only after almost four years of investigation, as well as these inconsistencies and inconsistencies of technical information, there are very big doubts about the authenticity of the "evidence". It is for this reason that I say that JIT is trying to fabricate the evidence for accusing Russia of the MH17 crash
Перевести вGoogleBingThat is, no real investigation into the circumstances of the crash is out of the question even after 4 years after the events. And this is indirect evidence that MH17 was shot down intentionally, that it was an action aimed at discrediting Russia.That is, no real investigation into the circumstances of the crash is out of the question even after 4 years after the events. And this is indirect evidence that MH17 was shot down intentionally, that it was an action aimed at discrediting Russia.


Try again to structure you post in a good manner, don't want to put in the energy to interpreting what you mean.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 3:42 pm

All EU member states have expressed their "strong support" on Monday for the Dutch approach to the MH17 case. '' Really encouraging and very important that this support is there '', Foreign Minister Stef Blok said after a meeting with his colleagues in Brussels.
Blok is calling on the UN Security Council on Tuesday to explain, among other things, that the Netherlands and Australia are making Russia liable for the downfall of flight MH17. He also explains the evidence. '' The support means that we can put pressure on Russia together. So that helps enormously. ''

During his speech, the minister '' will look straight into the eyes of the Russian ambassador. Of course I am very curious about his reaction. My deep hope is that the Russians will ultimately do what they have to do: admit their involvement and provide satisfaction. "

'' I am afraid, however, that we must be realistic and step by step to step up the pressure, 'according to Blok.' 'The reactions from Russia have unfortunately been very hesitant in the past few days.This does not mean we give up, but rather that we have a I'm afraid we have to be real and that it can take years.


In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/52 ... -zaak.html

Good, it is not the Netherlands on its own, its the EU now. We will see what will happen in the UNSC this week. No resolution will pass of course because Russia is a permanent member.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 4:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Off topic and whataboutism: we are talking about the MH17 missile that was proven to be of Russian military stock.


Proven in court? Which one and where? All that’s shown so far is that the missile was made in 1986 in Moscow, and should have been disposed of by 2011. Russian missiles were. Nothing else.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 4:56 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Off topic and whataboutism: we are talking about the MH17 missile that was proven to be of Russian military stock.


Proven in court? Which one and where? All that’s shown so far is that the missile was made in 1986 in Moscow, and should have been disposed of by 2011. Russian missiles were. Nothing else.


And how the missile was transported and to which brigade it belonged. You say Russian missiles are, could you prove it, please....... or can't you?

JIT is a serious prosecutor's office, recognized by most parties. Russians have been shown to be only making unproven scenario's.
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Good, it is not the Netherlands on its own, its the EU now. We will see what will happen in the UNSC this week. No resolution will pass of course because Russia is a permanent member.


Again the whole EU. That’s normal and common; and is called “European solidarity” (regardless in what - covering up atrocities and war crimes?). The whole EU was also “with Britain” on Skripals case and the infamous “highly likely” - where’s that now? No proof, no suspects - nearly 3 months later. While it was claimed that “only Russia” can produce this substance - it turned out that Britain, USA, Germany and even Czech Republic produced and stored it at some point in time.

Same as this MH-17 case now - “highly likely”. All JIT has is some pictures of unknown origin and this missile engine part of unknown origin. Nothing else.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:04 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Good, it is not the Netherlands on its own, its the EU now. We will see what will happen in the UNSC this week. No resolution will pass of course because Russia is a permanent member.


Again the whole EU. That’s normal and common; and is called “European solidarity” (regardless in what - covering up atrocities and war crimes?). The whole EU was also “with Britain” on Skripals case and the infamous “highly likely” - where’s that now? No proof, no suspects - nearly 3 months later. While it was claimed that “only Russia” can produce this substance - it turned out that Britain, USA, Germany and even Czech Republic produced and stored it at some point in time.

Same as this MH-17 case now - “highly likely”. All JIT has is some pictures of unknown origin and this missile engine part of unknown origin. Nothing else.


Yeah, yeah, known tactic, cast doubt over everything and hope that something sticks right? Quite an effective tactic, but unfortunately it doesn't really seem to fly here. You do a swell job defending the indefensible. After four years we can finally officially link Russia to the shooting down of MH17 and nothing can change that anymore. Russia has been held accountable and hopefully, it will be followed through with an international court case so we can let the world see the evidence and will lead to a conviction or a settlement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And how the missile was transported and to which brigade it belonged. You say Russian missiles are, could you prove it, please....... or can't you?

JIT is a serious prosecutor's office, recognized by most parties. Russians have been shown to be only making unproven scenario's.


It should be your “serious prosecutor’s office” that is to prove this, not anyone else. Including that Russian statements are false and some missiles were not in fact disposed. And not just with pictures of unknown origin. Will we ever find out how exactly did JIT obtain this engine part even?
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:13 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And how the missile was transported and to which brigade it belonged. You say Russian missiles are, could you prove it, please....... or can't you?

JIT is a serious prosecutor's office, recognized by most parties. Russians have been shown to be only making unproven scenario's.


It should be your “serious prosecutor’s office” that is to prove this, not anyone else. Including that Russian statements are false and some missiles were not in fact disposed. And not just with pictures of unknown origin. Will we ever find out how exactly did JIT obtain this engine part even?


On the debris field perhaps? You know Russian missile transported to Ukraine, Russian missile fired on MH17, Russian missile exploded near the MH17, Russian missile debris went through the MH17 and its occupants, Russian missile pieces along with pieces of the MH17 and pieces of the occupants fell down to earth, Russian missile pieces along with all kind of other pieces were collected by Dutch investigators and brought back to Holland. I don't know, it is a hypothesis, but a highly probable one, don't you think. Or are you saying the Dutch prosecutor's office, JIT and the accident investigation board all worked together to fabricate evidence against the good old innocent Russian Federation?
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why do I trust them? Why not? Would be my question back. Th Dutch prosecutors office has an excellent reputation for being independent.


There is nothing called an “independent prosecutor”. All prosecutors work for law enforcement agencies, which are state institutions or parts of those, and have to adhere to political lines of the country.

Speaking of MH17. Let’s recall that Russia and DNR militia were blamed for this MH-17 even before it hit the ground. If now some JIT’s prosecutor is to publish some evidence that could actually point to Ukraine? First, Ukraine has veto rights on information releases, and this cannot happen just for that reason.

Second - pointing the result to Ukraine will mean a disastrous failure of all Western politics towards Ukraine. Too many respected people and organizations put their reputation on the line with that Ukrainian coup in Feb 2014, and they won’t let it go down the drain just because of some “independent” prosecutor. Expectedly, this will be the last day this prosecutor is at work (he won’t finish this investigation even), and he still hopes to continue his career in Dutch or EU’s law enforcement system. Hence he has no better options than just to drag the case onto Russians’ fault, using anything he can find, regardess of its ridiculousness.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:37 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why do I trust them? Why not? Would be my question back. Th Dutch prosecutors office has an excellent reputation for being independent.


There is nothing called an “independent prosecutor”. All prosecutors work for law enforcement agencies, which are state institutions or parts of those, and have to adhere to political lines of the country.

Speaking of MH17. Let’s recall that Russia and DNR militia were blamed for this MH-17 even before it hit the ground. If now some JIT’s prosecutor is to publish some evidence that could actually point to Ukraine? First, Ukraine has veto rights on information releases, and this cannot happen just for that reason.

Second - pointing the result to Ukraine will mean a disastrous failure of all Western politics towards Ukraine. Too many respected people and organizations put their reputation on the line with that Ukrainian coup in Feb 2014, and they won’t let it go down the drain just because of some “independent” prosecutor. Expectedly, this will be the last day this prosecutor is at work (he won’t finish this investigation even), and he still hopes to continue his career in Dutch or EU’s law enforcement system. Hence he has no better options than just to drag the case onto Russians’ fault, using anything he can find, regardess of its ridiculousness.


Yes, I understand you defend Russia in this and any case and indeed in Russia, the prosecutors aren't independent, in the Netherlands, it is quite different. Prosecutors and judges are independent in the Netherlands, international peer-reviewed research proofs that. You are one of the few I know that questions that, but I understand though because if you accept their independence, you have to accept their results and you will never be prepared to do that.

I have said it from the beginning, I will accept any outcome from our independent judicial system. I challenge you to give me proof that you have said anything of this kind, I bet you haven't. I think you are even on record saying that you will not accept any investigation which Russia isn't part of. That's why you look to have an agenda writing all this stuff up, paid or not.
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anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
On the debris field perhaps?


“Perhaps on the debris field” - is that all about the origin? Or is it documented and photographed where and how exactly they found it among the debris, who did it, at what time? Nobody presented any of that. Or was it “just given to them”? You realize - not having an answer to this question cracks apart the whole case in court, right?

Dutchy wrote:
You know Russian missile transported to Ukraine, Russian missile fired on MH17, Russian missile exploded near the MH17, Russian missile debris went through the MH17 and its occupants, Russian missile pieces along with pieces of the MH17 and pieces of the occupants fell down to earth, Russian missile pieces along with all kind of other pieces were collected by Dutch investigators and brought back to Holland.


Nobody knows that. “Pictures from social media” isn’t knowing yet.

Dutchy wrote:
I don't know, it is a hypothesis, but a highly probable one, don't you think.


So as I kept saying here - “highly likely”? Same as recently with Skripals?

Dutchy wrote:
Or are you saying the Dutch prosecutor's office, JIT and the accident investigation board all worked together to fabricate evidence against the good old innocent Russian Federation?

Well, in the very recent past many Western agencies have been caught doing exactly that.

“Russian meddling” probe - fell apart, no proof. Even case against the sanctioned “Internet Research Agency” over $1mil worth of ads fell apart in American court, when the agency actually did send lawyers there. As it turned out, the prosecutor Mueller had no proof and just hoped they won’t show up to court.

“State sponsored doping scheme” - after the games, Dr. Rodchenkov said he doesn’t know anything - he doesn’t know what his “cocktail” consists of, who used it, who ever got it. As the result, expectedly, CAS found his testaments unproven. Prof. McLarnen then “just was asked to identify who *might have* used something”. Pathetic, isn’t it? Careers of a hundred or so athletes are down the drain, and reputation of Olympic movement in Russia will take years, if not decades, to rebuild itself. I personally lost any respect to this Olympic movement and any interest in it.

Skripals case - already mentioned, not unlike. Months later - no suspects, no proof, and half of EU was making that substance. So - you better take what they market as “evidence” with a grain of salt.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:44 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
On the debris field perhaps?


“Perhaps on the debris field” - is that all about the origin? Or is it documented and photographed where and how exactly they found it among the debris, who did it, at what time? Nobody presented any of that. Or was it “just given to them”? You realize - not having an answer to this question cracks apart the whole case in court, right?


And that is just pathetic. You fully well know I am not a member of the JIT and even if I were, I am not to release this kind of information on the internet because some Russian devotee asks for it. So given this, why do you ask this kind of specific questions knowingly nobody can answer them whom don't know and who do know will not answer them, what is the point? Perhaps to shed some doubt about the evidence perhaps in the hopes someone will think, hey he is right, Russia can't have done it. Is this your grand strategy?
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 5:55 pm

anrec80 wrote:
“Russian meddling” probe - fell apart, no proof. Even case against the sanctioned “Internet Research Agency” over $1mil worth of ads fell apart in American court, when the agency actually did send lawyers there. As it turned out, the prosecutor Mueller had no proof and just hoped they won’t show up to court.


Did you mean this, quite a different story you try to portray here: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/ ... lay-570627
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 6:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Did you mean this, quite a different story you try to portray here: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/ ... lay-570627


Yes, I read about this delay. Doesn’t look compelling - more like “oh shoot, now I need time to actually prepare my case!”.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 6:55 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Did you mean this, quite a different story you try to portray here: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/ ... lay-570627


Yes, I read about this delay. Doesn’t look compelling - more like “oh shoot, now I need time to actually prepare my case!”.


So this was indeed the story you are referring too. Now it helps when you do a proper link the next time, so everyone can verify what you are talking about and see if your story is bullocks. As far as I can see just the next free "interpretation" from you to frame the west. If I am missing something, please do give us a link next time to a reputable article.
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 7:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And that is just pathetic. You fully well know I am not a member of the JIT and even if I were, I am not to release this kind of information on the internet because some Russian devotee asks for it. So given this, why do you ask this kind of specific questions knowingly nobody can answer them whom don't know and who do know will not answer them, what is the point? Perhaps to shed some doubt about the evidence perhaps in the hopes someone will think, hey he is right, Russia can't have done it. Is this your grand strategy?


I don’t need any strategy. It’s JIT who needs strategy as to how they are going to build the case and prove it. Yes, this is a very specific question, and if JIT didn’t want any doubts in this artifact, they should have demonstrated its story. Especially given that they knew how to determine when it was manufactured and what the warranty terms on it are. If they didn’t and Russian statement came as a surprise - well, they haven’t done their job apparently. First, this is not a secret information and second, Almaz Antey provided them classified info on these missiles. This is what makes me believe that this JIT just trying to pull the facts up.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 7:11 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And that is just pathetic. You fully well know I am not a member of the JIT and even if I were, I am not to release this kind of information on the internet because some Russian devotee asks for it. So given this, why do you ask this kind of specific questions knowingly nobody can answer them whom don't know and who do know will not answer them, what is the point? Perhaps to shed some doubt about the evidence perhaps in the hopes someone will think, hey he is right, Russia can't have done it. Is this your grand strategy?


I don’t need any strategy. It’s JIT who needs strategy as to how they are going to build the case and prove it. Yes, this is a very specific question, and if JIT didn’t want any doubts in this artifact, they should have demonstrated its story. Especially given that they knew how to determine when it was manufactured and what the warranty terms on it are. If they didn’t and Russian statement came as a surprise - well, they haven’t done their job apparently. First, this is not a secret information and second, Almaz Antey provided them classified info on these missiles. This is what makes me believe that this JIT just trying to pull the facts up.


In the end, they need to prove it in court, so call upon Putin to hand over the men whom are going to be indited, whomever they are because they are not yet known. Don't you agree, it is quite unreasonable what you asking here?
Are you saying they made up facts with easy to prove information? I would say, especially since this missile apparently is past it shelf life we can see they don't tamper with evidence, why would you make it for yourself so hard if you could have easily stamped another date in there? Whomever fired the missile used a missile which was past its selflive, is that a fair conclusion?
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anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Mon May 28, 2018 9:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In the end, they need to prove it in court, so call upon Putin to hand over the men whom are going to be indited, whomever they are because they are not yet known. Don't you agree, it is quite unreasonable what you asking here?


Agree. But - they are demanding that Russia as a state admits responsibility for this whole thing. And - all that without even a single suspect in Russia anyhow related to any BUK. Not quite enough for such a serious demand, is it? Especially if we keep in mind that in every other case they made a similar demand, which ended up being without any proof - Olympics, Skripals, “USA elections meddling”. Here there isn’t any more evidence.

Dutchy wrote:
Are you saying they made up facts with easy to prove information? I would say, especially since this missile apparently is past it shelf life we can see they don't tamper with evidence, why would you make it for yourself so hard if you could have easily stamped another date in there? Whomever fired the missile used a missile which was past its selflive, is that a fair conclusion?


Pretty much it’s what I am saying - so far the facts are looking obviously made-up. Too many gaps. And - without knowing where from and how has JIT obtained this missile - can we even state that this was exactly this missile that grounded MH-17?
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