WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 11:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
Yeah, yeah, we all know you love to take the Russian stand on this. But do you have an opinion about the MH17 now it is proven to be down by a Russian military missile?


I bow to your emotional constraint and constructive participation.

IMU
no new facts have been presented.
Another layer of "Russia 's dun it!" has been brushed on.

Expect some funny action parallel to the FIFA World Cup.
An Ukrainian offensive perhaps.
Some terror act on one or the other playoff.
Murphy is an optimist
 
B777LRF
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 11:41 am

ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.


May I trust you to feel the same about the Americans, when they shot down an Iranian passenger aircraft minding it's own business, following its flightplan along a well-known airway, over the Persian Gulf?
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
VSMUT
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 11:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
Do you have any opinion on the findings that the missile was a Russian Military Missile and thus Putin's regime is neck deep into this?


My opinion is that the missile was fired by the rebels in a warzone, where air attacks were a daily routine. The rebels had an assortment of equipment that was either captured from the Ukrainians or donated by the Russians, and in the case of complex equipment, almost certainly maintained in Russia. The rebels used Russia as a safe heaven between fighting, and as a path to traverse from one end of Novorussia to another, similar to the Ho Chi Minh path during the Vietnam war, meaning that the information about the truck entering and leaving through the Russian border leaves no definite conclusions.

The article clearly states that "it had been supplied by the country's 53rd anti-aircraft brigade in Kursk". Meaning what exactly? Not that the 53rd anti-aircraft brigade crossed the border to shoot it down. Most likely it had belonged to them prior to being donated to the Novorussian armed forces, so they could defend themselves against the daily air attacks.

Conincidentally, this is what happened in the weeks up to the BUKs being brought in. The situation was not black and white. The rebels (ergo, soldiers) had been bombed by the Ukrainians many times before then. The BUKs only came in response to the Ukrainians bombing civilian centers. The BUKs weren't even deployed on the frontline:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /12695843/
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/03/worl ... index.html


Dutchy wrote:
Furthermore, what do you mean by mud-throwing competition between Russia and the US?


I am referring to the US (and to some extent, European) media and political establishment who are hellbent on blaming and punishing Russia for a ton of things (in most cases rightfully), and as a result are drowning out any rational thought. BlueSky1976's response above is the perfect example of this: "How you dare suggest that anybody other than Russia bears less than 110% of the blame, you are just a putin-controlled troll".

This is irrelevant to the Dutch accident investigation board, whose findings I agree with, and are almost certain to be completely ignored, or selectively abused by the powers in be. Mistakes were made on both sides, and we must admit ours as well. BlueSky1976 obviously hasn't. Have you?
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Unfortunately, this point seems to have gone completely missing in the mud-throwing competition between Russia and the US.

Aircraft that deploy paratroopers are not pressurized, That negates most of your above argument about how a II 76 would look like a 777.

You are a bit misleading when you say " these systems don't require highly trained operators" and they are "operated by mere conscripts". Yes it is true that the systems are automated and the mechanical process of launching a missile is not difficult. But you are missing that the persons chosen for this kind of job will always be above average, and once in the job, they always take pride in their skills and knowledge of the equipment. The task of searching the sky for targets is both enjoyable for the operator and encouraged by their higher ups. Target identification is a natural part of target acquisition and an airliner (or cargo aircraft, or any craft going from point A to point B in a straight line) are easily spotted and are generally avoided because they are boring. A SAM operator craves a lock on with a fighter type, or even a helicopter, anything that fly's an odd pattern. The point being, that they can all spot an airliner, they are always very high, fast and flying in a straight line.

I know all this because I was once one of those guys.

I will add that IMO the only people who bare responsibility for shooting down an airliner are those who brought the equipment to do it and then used that equipment to bring down an airliner. Ukraine shares no responsibility for the downing of MH-17, none, nata, zip, zero.

And the US has little to do with this event, it is all on Russia.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:21 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yeah, yeah, we all know you love to take the Russian stand on this. But do you have an opinion about the MH17 now it is proven to be down by a Russian military missile?


I bow to your emotional constraint and constructive participation.

IMU
no new facts have been presented.
Another layer of "Russia 's dun it!" has been brushed on.

Expect some funny action parallel to the FIFA World Cup.
An Ukrainian offensive perhaps.
Some terror act on one or the other playoff.


No new facts? It now has been proven that it was a missile from Russian military stock, so that is the new fact, speculation has been proven.

What has the World Cup to do with anything? Did you read the open letter from the people whom actually lost loved ones when the Russian missile struck the MH17?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:31 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you have any opinion on the findings that the missile was a Russian Military Missile and thus Putin's regime is neck deep into this?


My opinion is that the missile was fired by the rebels in a warzone, where air attacks were a daily routine. The rebels had an assortment of equipment that was either captured from the Ukrainians or donated by the Russians, and in the case of complex equipment, almost certainly maintained in Russia. The rebels used Russia as a safe heaven between fighting, and as a path to traverse from one end of Novorussia to another, similar to the Ho Chi Minh path during the Vietnam war, meaning that the information about the truck entering and leaving through the Russian border leaves no definite conclusions.

The article clearly states that "it had been supplied by the country's 53rd anti-aircraft brigade in Kursk". Meaning what exactly? Not that the 53rd anti-aircraft brigade crossed the border to shoot it down. Most likely it had belonged to them prior to being donated to the Novorussian armed forces, so they could defend themselves against the daily air attacks.

Conincidentally, this is what happened in the weeks up to the BUKs being brought in. The situation was not black and white. The rebels (ergo, soldiers) had been bombed by the Ukrainians many times before then. The BUKs only came in response to the Ukrainians bombing civilian centers. The BUKs weren't even deployed on the frontline:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /12695843/
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/03/worl ... index.html


Dutchy wrote:
Furthermore, what do you mean by mud-throwing competition between Russia and the US?


I am referring to the US (and to some extent, European) media and political establishment who are hellbent on blaming and punishing Russia for a ton of things (in most cases rightfully), and as a result are drowning out any rational thought. BlueSky1976's response above is the perfect example of this: "How you dare suggest that anybody other than Russia bears less than 110% of the blame, you are just a putin-controlled troll".

This is irrelevant to the Dutch accident investigation board, whose findings I agree with, and are almost certain to be completely ignored, or selectively abused by the powers in be. Mistakes were made on both sides, and we must admit ours as well. BlueSky1976 obviously hasn't. Have you?


Novorussia is a term I have seen only being used by Russians, but leaving that at one side.

Both options are left open: either active Russian military (green men or not) controlled the BUK or it was indeed given to the rebels. Either case it is the responsibility of the Putin regime. It is like given an Uzi to a four-year-old and being surprised something went wrong. So Russia should own up to this.

The Dutch and Australian governments are holding Russia responsible for shooting down the MH17, with this formal step they hope to force Russia's cooperation and a settlement for relatives of the murdered, perhaps with the help of a court of an international body.

In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/52 ... -mh17.html

So another formal step has been taken.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 1:02 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Image

At a press conference held yesterday to investigate the mh17 crash (which again accused Russia, of course), allegedly fragments of the missile that shot down the plane were presented.

In this case, the fragment of the body clearly visible inscriptions, in particular, the inscription " build date: 15.12.86".
This indicates that the missile was fired on 15 December 1986. The shelf life of Buk missiles is 15 years. It is also possible to extend this period after appropriate repair for another 5 years. Twice. After that, the missiles are to be decommissioned and destroyed. Taking into account all the extensions of the missile's service life, the fragment which is presented as proof could not be in service with the Russian army in 2014, since the maximum period of its operation expired in 2011.
But the armed army of Ukraine it could stand - because Ukraine is forced to use outdated missiles, because after 1991, new missiles for the complex " Buk " to Ukraine from Russia was not supplied.
In addition, the marking of the rocket engine - 9Д131 number...8.30.113 indicates that the engine was released in August 1987, that is, the engine was released 9 months later than the rocket compartment, which lies nearby. From here it can be concluded-this is the details of DIFFERENT missiles complex "BUK", and we are dealing with an attempt to fabricate evidence. Very clumsy with it.
And finally, someone can imagine that the compartment of the rocket after falling from a height of 10 kilometers will look like this, as it was presented at the press conference?


And here we have an example of how an ordinary Russian, so he claims, react to the news that it was a Russian military missile, still in denial. I am guessing that this photo and story was fabricated by some Russian state media station or another Russian source linked to the Putin regime.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 2:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And here we have an example of how an ordinary Russian, so he claims, react to the news that it was a Russian military missile, still in denial. I am guessing that this photo and story was fabricated by some Russian state media station or another Russian source linked to the Putin regime.
The story might well be fabricated, the photo is not. It was included in the official JIT MH17 press statement from yesterday. You can also see it on this JIT video at the 0:34 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... -np3_Xa5kE
Attamottamotta!
 
johnny767
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 2:59 pm

MORE LIKE BROKEN NEWS.... Look who it's coming from... BBC? Hoho, Please.... a very anit-Russian "media source," This is equivalent to reports by CNN or any heavily anti-Russian fake news outlet. I would have to be incredibly foolish to believe BBC, CNN, or any heavily anti-Russian government (and you know who you are). This report is laughable as any report the U.S and it's puppies does against any nation.. "Accuse, accuse, accuse; however, there's never any credible evidence."

Therefore, please post these types of garbage elsewhere. If you're going to accuse someone, make sure you bring clear and un-edited evidence- not fabricated or "imaginary" accounts.

Cheers !!!
 
johnny767
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 3:07 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And here we have an example of how an ordinary Russian, so he claims, react to the news that it was a Russian military missile, still in denial. I am guessing that this photo and story was fabricated by some Russian state media station or another Russian source linked to the Putin regime.
The story might well be fabricated, the photo is not. It was included in the official JIT MH17 press statement from yesterday. You can also see it on this JIT video at the 0:34 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... -np3_Xa5kE


Not only this could have been clearly done by the Ukraine Regime, but also by the Dutch Regime and even the U.S. Regime to instigate and accuse Russia-- Easy!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 3:07 pm

johnny767 wrote:
MORE LIKE BROKEN NEWS.... Look who it's coming from... BBC? Hoho, Please.... a very anit-Russian "media source," This is equivalent to reports by CNN or any heavily anti-Russian fake news outlet. I would have to be incredibly foolish to believe BBC, CNN, or any heavily anti-Russian government (and you know who you are). This report is laughable as any report the U.S and it's puppies does against any nation.. "Accuse, accuse, accuse; however, there's never any credible evidence."

Therefore, please post these types of garbage elsewhere. If you're going to accuse someone, make sure you bring clear and un-edited evidence- not fabricated or "imaginary" accounts.

Cheers !!!


Gee, you are calling the Dutch prosecutors office an heavily anti-Russian fake news outlet. Strange that anyone would call it that, but ok. Sure you have something to back this up, don't you, or you just wanted to spread some vocal vomit around here?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 3:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Novorussia is a term I have seen only being used by Russians, but leaving that at one side.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya
coined around ~~1760 :-)

You have a pretty USish blind eye for historic or nonnative information.
I have ideas what passport you carry.
Murphy is an optimist
 
johnny767
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 3:13 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Novorussia is a term I have seen only being used by Russians, but leaving that at one side.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya
coined around ~~1760 :-)

You have a pretty USish blind eye for historic or nonnative information.
I have ideas what passport you carry.


.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 5:49 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
They said it wasn't them.

I don’t remember if this is part of Russia‘s official position but this was broadcasted on Russian TV.
Image
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Do you have any opinion on the findings that the missile was a Russian Military Missile and thus Putin's regime is neck deep into this?


The missile showed was a Soviet missile made in 1986, and Ukraine has been receiving such missiles until 1991. This is almost an alibi for Russian involvement.

Russian military destroyed all such missiles by 2011 - since they can be safe only until they are 25 years old. Ukrainians though have no notions of safety, and are still keeping those. So - “highly likely Ukraine”.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:09 pm

MrHMSH wrote:

Where's the evidence of the Ukrainian BUKs? They're pretty hard to disguise and I find it hard to believe there isn't a single photo of them if they have been in the area. There is plenty of video and photographic evidence of a BUK that crossed from Russia however.

And finally: what's the relevance of the 2001 shootdown?


There are pictures of BUK supposedly being hauled around Eastern Ukraine. But there is no evidence of it actually crossing the border. And no photographic evidence of it ever being seen in Russia.
 
Etheereal
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:16 pm

So the tl;dr of this thread is Everyone that doesnt like what i do is a Russian Troll, the post ?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you have any opinion on the findings that the missile was a Russian Military Missile and thus Putin's regime is neck deep into this?


The missile showed was a Soviet missile made in 1986, and Ukraine has been receiving such missiles until 1991. This is almost an alibi for Russian involvement.

Russian military destroyed all such missiles by 2011 - since they can be safe only until they are 25 years old. Ukrainians though have no notions of safety, and are still keeping those. So - “highly likely Ukraine”.


So you have no opinion on the Putin regime's neck-deep involvement in this, ok, good to know.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:26 pm

Last time I checked, both Russia and Ukraine are signatories to the Montreal Convention that states it is illegal to shoot down a passenger plane. Warzone or no warzone.
So both countries should have cooperated from the beginning of the investigation. If a country does not want to cooperate, it should withdraw from The Convention, or expelled if necessary.
Besides, how difficult can it be to admit that "your rocket" was used illegally? Happens all the time in Syria (e.g. ISIS got their hands on American equipment).
Last edited by Dieuwer on Fri May 25, 2018 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

Where's the evidence of the Ukrainian BUKs? They're pretty hard to disguise and I find it hard to believe there isn't a single photo of them if they have been in the area. There is plenty of video and photographic evidence of a BUK that crossed from Russia however.

And finally: what's the relevance of the 2001 shootdown?


There are pictures of BUK supposedly being hauled around Eastern Ukraine. But there is no evidence of it actually crossing the border. And no photographic evidence of it ever being seen in Russia.


You do know the border was Russian and Russian backed rebels controlled, right? So why would there be any evidence crossing this border, especially military hardware in the highest category while Russia denies any military involvement in eastern Ukraine - which we know is untrue by the evidence presented by the OVSE? Would be quite unwise to have such evidence, don't you think?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:34 pm

Etheereal wrote:
So the tl;dr of this thread is Everyone that doesnt like what i do is a Russian Troll, the post ?


The division line between people whom believe in an independent Joint Investigation Team, lead by the Dutch, research results and whom ty everything to undermine their findings do seem to have a close correlation with supporters of the Putin regime or not. And the Putin's regime is known to have a troll army, based in St Petersburg for instance. If the supporters of the Putin regime on this forum are paid or not, I do not know.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 8:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So you have no opinion on the Putin regime's neck-deep involvement in this, ok, good to know.


Ok - are we ready to conclude that “Putin regime” is so almighty that can hit something flying not above his country with a missile that’s not his? Perhaps make “Putin regime” an official cult then, make sacrifices then... I think you on the West are almost there.
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 8:43 pm

anrec80 wrote:
There are pictures of BUK supposedly being hauled around Eastern Ukraine. But there is no evidence of it actually crossing the border. And no photographic evidence of it ever being seen in Russia.


Here is the photo evidence you are looking for from the JIT MH17 Investigation:

Enjoy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhyd875Qtlg
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 9:00 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you have any opinion on the findings that the missile was a Russian Military Missile and thus Putin's regime is neck deep into this?


The missile showed was a Soviet missile made in 1986, and Ukraine has been receiving such missiles until 1991. This is almost an alibi for Russian involvement.

Russian military destroyed all such missiles by 2011 - since they can be safe only until they are 25 years old. Ukrainians though have no notions of safety, and are still keeping those. So - “highly likely Ukraine”.


Not exactly. The video shows that the rocket engine was manufactured in 1986. That is only part of a complete missile. The warhead used was much more modern than that; and all the evidence I have seen indicates that Ukraine never has had this modern warhead for it's BUKs (see my post earlier on this thread). The vast majority of that information is in the JIT report from last fall. The shrapnel found in the aircraft parts are from a modern BUK warhead. The holes in the aircraft parts exactly match the size and shape of this shrapnel (and these holes can be seen from pictures taken of the aircraft portions at the Ukraine crash site).

I cannot speak specifically for Russian Military practice. But, US, European, and some Asian countries that I am aware of periodically inspects and replaces components as needed. When I was in the US Navy in the late 1970's we were carrying aircraft gravity bombs from WWII with so many stencils of inspection dates that it was almost ridiculous. Of course, the trigger/detonator that would be screwed into the nose of the bomb were all within 15 years old (I understand that the 1st gulf war allowed the US to use up all remaining inventory from WWII and the Korean war with the exception of 16" shells for the battleships.

Missile crates listed last overhaul date and the model of the warhead (which was often more modern than the base missile itself).

It would be quite reasonable for the rocket engine to be usable beyond 25 years; and a newer warhead and other control parts used to update a missile. I would find it hard to believe that Russia would scrap the usable parts and just destroy complete missiles. They most likely inspect and replace components at appropriate intervals, or when a component fails a test, as does many other countries.

Have a great day,
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 9:06 pm

[Insert sound of person frantically thumbing through scripts - please stand by]
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 9:23 pm

2175301 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
There are pictures of BUK supposedly being hauled around Eastern Ukraine. But there is no evidence of it actually crossing the border. And no photographic evidence of it ever being seen in Russia.


Here is the photo evidence you are looking for from the JIT MH17 Investigation:

Enjoy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhyd875Qtlg


Clearly every single one of those photos and videos are fake. It's all fake and doctored. All of it.
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 9:39 pm

Ah yes, they have used the Bellingcat video. Nice propaganda video using all the usual tricks like subliminal imagery, blurred photos, erased number plates, putting ideas in your mind and of course cgi graphics. Even the dates and direction of travel are suspect but not being physically there, one can't really say much. Interesting link here:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com ... ds-russia/

Let's look at some facts. It was proven that it was an old missile from 1986 and only used by Ukraine. That specific plane was told to alter its course by ATC to fly over that particular spot, all other aircraft flew a different route, why? According to the video from JIT, the supposed missile was moved along a route to Ukraine for one specific shot and then returned to Russia. The fact that it went through Ukraine held positions without being shot at or at least stopped boggles the mind. How did the Russians know that that aircraft would deviate from it's course on that date and at that time? What motive did Russia have, what benefit did it have for them, it seems to me that the only motive was that of Ukraine?

Why don't the Americans prove beyond all doubt by releasing satellite images showing where the launcher was at the time as well as what unit it came from? We know they can, see here:

https://www.rt.com/usa/427169-niger-ambush-video-drone/

This was really one of the first false flag incidents in trying to find a reason to attack Russia.

What is all this going to achieve in the end? The USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian A300 and all that happened to the crew was that they received medals and being hailed hero's when returning home.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
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keesje
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 10:06 pm

Trigger happy, flat headed, nationalist russians assisting the local bloodbrothers pushed the button under the impression they were downing a fascist Ukrainian transport.
Somehow protecting the greater motherland. They used an advanced weapon and shot down a packed innocent airliner. Then the leader of the country went into scandalous denial, ignoring facts, blaming others. I think there is little doubt about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB43kWrA2ZI

Trigger happy, flat headed, nationalist americans assisting the local interests pushed the button under the impression they were downing a Ayatollah stolen F14 fighter.
Somehow protecting the greater motherland. They used an advanced weapon and shot down a packed innocent airliner. Then the leader of the country went into scandalous denial, ignoring facts, blaming others. I think there is little doubt about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10qatUWwIeg

But in the end the US democratic power proved strong enough to beat flat head nationalism, admit the f.ck-up, apologized and compensated the families involved.
I wonder if Putin's Russia will have that strength & decency.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 10:22 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you have no opinion on the Putin regime's neck-deep involvement in this, ok, good to know.


Ok - are we ready to conclude that “Putin regime” is so almighty that can hit something flying not above his country with a missile that’s not his? Perhaps make “Putin regime” an official cult then, make sacrifices then... I think you on the West are almost there.


What part of a Russian military missile did you misunderstand, that is the conclusion of the official criminal investigation that led to the unprecedented step of the Dutch and Australian governments to hold the Russian Federation responsible. So given this fact, I conclude that the Putin regime is neck deep into this, the other possibility is that either Russian military facilities are so poorly guarded that it is possible to roll out a BUK and get away with it (and return it to Russian soil) or a part of the Russian military has gone rogue and just hand out weapons as they please. I must say I have the Putin regime in some higher regards than you, because I don't think either of the latter two scenario's is likely.

The official investigation already identified the field where the BUK was shot from, and that was in Russian backed rebel Ukranian territory. And you know how powerful Putin is, he destabilized your country (or are you Russian living in Ukraine, bit lost on that part?) and even annexed part of it. Under Putin, Russia is a regional power.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 11:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Last time I checked, both Russia and Ukraine are signatories to the Montreal Convention that states it is illegal to shoot down a passenger plane. Warzone or no warzone.
So both countries should have cooperated from the beginning of the investigation. If a country does not want to cooperate, it should withdraw from The Convention, or expelled if necessary.
Besides, how difficult can it be to admit that "your rocket" was used illegally? Happens all the time in Syria (e.g. ISIS got their hands on American equipment).


The Dutch prefer to boil this frog slowly and build the case for the whole world to see who is guilty. If a country is expelled from the international (aviation) community while they still think they can get away with everything they might start doing silly things like closing their airspace for certain flights or their own airlines will suffer resulting in accidents killing more innocent people.
 
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keesje
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 11:50 pm

I think Russia exports a little to the Netherlands.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/russias ... -partners/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 12:30 am

keesje wrote:
I think Russia exports a little to the Netherlands.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/russias ... -partners/
Do they spend 35 billion on hookers?
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 12:56 am

N14AZ wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
They said it wasn't them.

I don’t remember if this is part of Russia‘s official position but this was broadcasted on Russian TV.
Image


Russian photoshoped image.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9,306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Waterbomber
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 1:04 am

2175301 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
There are pictures of BUK supposedly being hauled around Eastern Ukraine. But there is no evidence of it actually crossing the border. And no photographic evidence of it ever being seen in Russia.


Here is the photo evidence you are looking for from the JIT MH17 Investigation:

Enjoy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhyd875Qtlg


Im sorry for the Dutch if all this is real evidence that they put together.
However, this does not constitute valid evidence in a court of law. Video's posted on social media do not have verifiable time stamps. To verify the time stamps, the original files need to be analysed and checked for timestamp tampering. That's one thing.
Second of all, propagating films of others without their consent or knowledge may constitute invasion of privacy and may not be used as evidence.

Finally, I would like to say that every country has government departments that work to influence public opinion. So for every Russian troll on this site, there might be a Western troll.
Remarkable though that Trump is working against the regime that allegedly supported him to win the elections. So which one is it? Are they in bed together or not? Make up your trolling mind.

If they can do smething with this evidence, is to confront the Russians at a political level and negotiate the removal of some of the sanctions in exchange for payment of generous compensation to the families of the victims. That helps everybody.

This political finger pointing doesn't work and doesn't help anyone.

Frankly, the EU is responsible for overthrowing the pro-Russian regime in Ukraine. The Ukrainians lost Crimea and all the major industrial ties with Russia over it (for example Antonov and Motor Sich). This was a very stupid move of the EU and the Ukrainians who participated in it.
The EU and Euro zone is already feeding more than half of Eastern Europe. Ukraine is just too big a burden to add, but they should have thought about it before overthrowing the regime.
Last edited by Waterbomber on Sat May 26, 2018 1:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 1:27 am

Waterbomber wrote:
2175301 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
There are pictures of BUK supposedly being hauled around Eastern Ukraine. But there is no evidence of it actually crossing the border. And no photographic evidence of it ever being seen in Russia.


Here is the photo evidence you are looking for from the JIT MH17 Investigation:

Enjoy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhyd875Qtlg


Im sorry for the Dutch if all this is real evidence that they put together.
However, this does not constitute valid evidence in a court of law. Video's posted on social media do not have verifiable time stamps. To verify the time stamps, the original files need to be analysed and checked for timestamp tampering. That's one thing.
Second of all, propagating films of others without their consent or knowledge may constitute invasion of privacy and may not be used as evidence.

Finally, I would like to say that every country has government departments that work to influence public opinion. So for every Russian troll on this site, there might be a Western troll.
Remarkable though that Trump is working against the regime that allegedly supported him to win the elections. So which one is it? Are they in bed together or not? Make up your trolling mind.

If they can do smething with this evidence, is to confront the Russians at a political level and negotiate the removal of some of the sanctions in exchange for payment of generous compensation to the families of the victims. That helps everybody.

This political finger pointing doesn't work and doesn't help anyone.


As they said, they have more evidence and are still working very hard on it. They won't convict anyone on a single picture but all of it put together with all the additional verification of the materials will certainly contribute... It would certainly help everybody if the Russian government was more cooperative so it won't become necessary to impose more sanctions.
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 3:32 am

alfa164 wrote:
At some point, even the most affectionate Putinistas will realize they have been duped.


Sadly, you are in fact wrong on this. It's a psychology self defense action to deny things that challenge the status quo. The biggest reason people do not complete various self improvement programs that would make them much more successful... is they see that if they actually change - that they won't like the person they were (and are now).

My wife is from eastern Ukraine; and things did not really change in her beliefs until she saw the level of technological and social development in places like The Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago; and various Free private funded museums and botanical gardens that were funded by millionaires who dies long ago and left their property as a "free" public museum, botanical garden, etc. as their legacy... and how those people made their millions... That is when she realized that much of what she had been taught about the west was a lie... Only then did she start to dig into various histories on various things - and see a different view (and she reads things from many countries and does not automatically accept the American version).

She was totally stunned to see that the US Military routinely admits mistakes...

As for the Dutch Investigation Board. I am quite sure that they would not have released those videos unless they have sufficient solid evidence to go to court with to back those claims. Despite the claims of some here... Social Media videos have in fact been accepted as evidence in courts of law (and conviction have occurred based on them); and the copy of the video file uploaded would normally indicate the IP address and other identification information about the phone or computer (and some of that data may include both a latitude and longitude location and date time stamp from the video device). The date time stamp on when the upload occurred is known (and stored by the social media sites); and its fairly easy to spot modified picture of video files with technical analysis. I am sure that those videos would not have been shown unless they already passed such a technical review. Since the Dutch Safety Board says they have multiple videos of essentially the same events from social media sites... It is reasonable to assume that is multiple social media sites. If they all say and show the same thing at essentially the same time... that's multiple independent sources...

Anyway, I digress - as those who don't want to believe won't - no matter what. Many of them would literally chose to die first - instead of changing their beliefs (lots of evidence over the world history of that phenomena).

Have a great day,
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 4:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
What part of a Russian military missile did you misunderstand, that is the conclusion of the official criminal investigation that led to the unprecedented step of the Dutch and Australian governments to hold the Russian Federation responsible. So given this fact, I conclude that the Putin regime is neck deep into this, the other possibility is that either Russian military facilities are so poorly guarded that it is possible to roll out a BUK and get away with it (and return it to Russian soil) or a part of the Russian military has gone rogue and just hand out weapons as they please. I must say I have the Putin regime in some higher regards than you, because I don't think either of the latter two scenario's is likely.

The official investigation already identified the field where the BUK was shot from, and that was in Russian backed rebel Ukranian territory. And you know how powerful Putin is, he destabilized your country (or are you Russian living in Ukraine, bit lost on that part?) and even annexed part of it. Under Putin, Russia is a regional power.


Sure - this is what these “unprecedented steps” are like:
Dutch FM Blok to Russian FM Lavrov:
- You are officially at fault for MH-17!
Lavrov:
- Really? How so?
Blok:
- JIT is really confident in this.
- Ok. Do they have a proof?
- Hmmmm. I don’t know.

This is far from unprecedented. Very precedented really in fact. Reminds me recent “highly likely”, where 2.5 months later the investigators said “we have not even one suspect yet”. But now, based in this missile, Russians said that it’s “more than likely” Ukraine.
Speaking of BUK - all the official investigation identified is that this is a very old BUK, past its validity terms. And in addition - they didn’t tell how they got it. Did they find it among MH-17 debris? Was it given to them by someone? By whom? And if given - did they just take it and called in “an evidence”?

And - before calling someone a “regional power”, you should look at what’s going on in the world. Your Eastern neighbors ran to Putin to seek help from “those Washington crazies”. Your Southern neighbors are now in St. Petersburg looking for European security guarantees. And - guess what - they got assurance of ability from Putin to provide one. So - you very well may be getting a new “security guarantor” soon. And, you know, groundless accusations and talking tough at a security guarantor hasn’t got anyone to any good place yet. You may actually have to gather some better proof than these “Bellingcat reports” and “social media compilations”.

So, you know, it’s a great thing there’s kind and forgiving ol’good Vladimir Vladimirovich in Kremlin. Who doesn’t seem to be making a big deal out of all these Olympics, Skripals, sanctions, these MH-17 “investigations”. There are more radical and less forgiving dudes in Kremlin too. One of whom could also be your next “leader of the united Europe”.
 
worldranger
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 5:58 am

Any nation of people that allows one man to rule for 20 years - is actually a reflection of weakness at all institutional levels due cronyism.

I thought the Russians were meant to be strong. 146m people and only one guy has talent?

This weakness means that there will never be cooperation from the Russian side - but the long arm of the law will catch a number of people who are most likely on a secret watch list - and the minute they set foot on foreign soil, will eventually be nabbed.
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Dutch criminal law has no jurisdiction for a death on a Malaysia registered aircraft downed over Ukrainian territory.


Dutch criminal law has jurisdiction over whatever Dutch law says it has jurisdiction on. Can you name a single country where laws don't apply to the murder of that nations citizens or murder committed by their citizens, just because it didn't happen in that country?

Universal jurisdiction is international law, see paragraphs 138 and 139 of the 2005 World Summit Outcome Document and United Nations Security Council Resolution 1674 amongst a ton of others.

The Dutch clearly have jurisdiction to prosecute any Russian involved in this war crime, regardless of what you, Russia, Malaysia or Ukraine have to say about it.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 6:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Dutch criminal law has no jurisdiction for a death on a Malaysia registered aircraft downed over Ukrainian territory.


Dutch criminal law has jurisdiction over whatever Dutch law says it has jurisdiction on. Can you name a single country where laws don't apply to the murder of that nations citizens or murder committed by their citizens, just because it didn't happen in that country?

Universal jurisdiction is international law, see paragraphs 138 and 139 of the 2005 World Summit Outcome Document and United Nations Security Council Resolution 1674 amongst a ton of others.

The Dutch clearly have jurisdiction to prosecute any Russian involved in this war crime, regardless of what you, Russia, Malaysia or Ukraine have to say about it.

Best regards
Thomas


Furthermore, the Dutch were given jurisdiction by Ukraine in which country this crime was committed. It seems to me that whom ever brings up this argument would like Ukraine to be in full jurisdiction and would have more faith in that, while on the other hand mostly the same people cry that Ukraine has been part of the JIT and mostly support Putin's decision to kill any change for an international court.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 7:29 am

I thought I would post more of the information that I understand about who has what version of which BUK missile and warheads.

There is a lot of conflicting information on the internet about different versions of BUK missile systems, and their key components. It is obvious that some of it has to be wrong (for example many sources do not properly identify that the original BUK missile system had a different warhead; which is relatively easy to identify by other sources discussing the early 1970's version of the BUK, and changes over the decades (I have seen two different sources listing 3 generations of warheads for the BUK system since the early 1970's).

The information I have seen says that Ukraine was originally supplied with the BK-37 BUK System that contained a 9M38 missile with a 9N310 warhead. That would have made a lot of sense as the Soviet Union shifted older weapon systems from Russia and countries directly facing Germany and other parts of Europe to countries with lessor direct threats.

The same information says that Ukraine later received some BK-37M (BUK-M1) Systems that contained a 9M38 missile with a 9N314 warhead. The information is sketchy on how many BK-37M's (BUK-M1) were supplied to Ukraine.

The Dutch Safety Board identified the shrapnel specifically to a 9N314M warhead; which was installed on the 9M38M1 missile (and possibly the 9M317 missile which is not under discussion here).

The BUK-M1 System is capable of firing both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missile.

The information I have seen says that a 9M38M1 missile could be fabricated using major components from a 9M38 missile; and that the Soviet Union did that (the US has also created newer versions of missiles from older missiles). Thus, a 9M38M1 missile could realistically have an older 9M38 rocket engine.

I have seen information that suggest that it would be possible to put older warheads on the 9M38M1 missile; and the same information asked the question of why anyone would do that.

As I mentioned in one of my post above. It is my understanding that Ukraine allowed inspection of its BUKs to validate that they had the older warheads.

Recent news is an announcement by Russia the Ukraine has not received any new BUK missiles since 1991. http://tass.com/world/1006378
This supports the concept that Ukraine does not have the modern warhead as the 9M38M1 missile appears to date from no sooner than 1986 and the Soviet Union would have been putting it in more critical areas than Ukraine; and shifting older weapons to Ukraine (I think it unlikely that Ukraine would have received the most modern missiles in the first 5 years of production).

Below is a link to the Dutch Safety Board Report and the warhead identification.
https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/p ... 959FE4ECBC

So the real information is still that it was a 9N314M warhead; only known to have been installed on the 9M38M1 missile; and to the best of my information - not a warhead installed on any Ukraine BUKs.

I hope this helps,
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 7:54 am

musman9853 wrote:
wean the EU of russian gas, etc.


Good luck with that...

Signed,

Merkel & Juncker
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 8:35 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
wean the EU of russian gas, etc.


Good luck with that...

Signed,

Merkel & Juncker


As regards the origin of imports, Norway is the source of 26.9 % of the natural gas entering the EU (Intra-EU trade excluded) and Russia of 18.3 %, while also 17.1 % comes from Ukraine and 11.5 % from Belarus.

Signed
Eurostat
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RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 8:52 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
wean the EU of russian gas, etc.


Good luck with that...

Signed,

Merkel & Juncker


Don't expect any spectacular economic blockades in the near future or MH17 alone determining the policies of the countries of Europe but a continued failure of Russia to meet its international obligations or otherwise playing by the rules and gradual small decreases in gas and cash flow will hurt the Russian reputation and economy just as much. The credit ratings only recently went up from near-junk status to investment-grade-ish but this could very easily be reversed. Most countries do have strategic oil and gas reserves and other options for the longer term while Russia is basically a one-trick-pony and doing very little to change this.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russ ... SKCN1G80EX
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 9:37 am

tommy1808 wrote:
[ while also 17.1 % comes from Ukraine

The very purpose of the shameful Nord Stream 2 is to bypass Ukraine... even though the Druzhba pipeline is running at a fraction of its capacity.
Nice try.
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 10:55 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
[ while also 17.1 % comes from Ukraine

The very purpose of the shameful Nord Stream 2 is to bypass Ukraine... even though the Druzhba pipeline is running at a fraction of its capacity.
Nice try.


Ah, again you fail do see what is right in front of you. Russia doesn't hold any sort of power by delivering gas, their share is much too small. We are kindly paying them for gas, because they happen to make the cheapest offer. If they stop doing that someone else will sell us the gas for a slighy higher price.
28% of a gas market is just too small a share to give anyone any power. If Russia stops to deliver gas right now, we would not necessarily notice for over a year do to reserves.

There are reasons that LNG Terminals are popping up like popcorn for the last decades but apparently you have missed that together with Russian gases relative insignificant.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Balerit
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 2:03 pm

alfa164 wrote:

Balerit wrote:
Let's look at some facts. It was proven that it was an old missile from 1986 and only used by Ukraine. That specific plane was told to alter its course by ATC to fly over that particular spot, all other aircraft flew a different route, why? According to the video from JIT, the supposed missile was moved along a route to Ukraine for one specific shot and then returned to Russia. The fact that it went through Ukraine held positions without being shot at or at least stopped boggles the mind. How did the Russians know that that aircraft would deviate from it's course on that date and at that time? What motive did Russia have, what benefit did it have for them, it seems to me that the only motive was that of Ukraine?


We would be happy to look at facts. Unfortunately, you are perpetuating lies. No have no facts at all.


Where are your facts, the video? Well look at 1:19 on the video clearly not the same photo, sign post in wrong position, as is the photo at 1:25 where the font size is different on the sign. I could go on ad infinitum but it'll take two hours. Secondly there seems to be more than one convoy shown as not all trucks are the same or carrying the same equipment.

Did you even study my link? Are you disputing the age of the missile or the fact that ATC requested that said plane alter course? Can you prove anything in that video, say the direction of the vehicles for instance or do you just accept what the narrator is saying?

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pilots-of-air-india-plane-heard-ukraine-atc-asking-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-to-change-direction-2004730

You might want to read this as well:

https://off-guardian.org/2015/08/29/mh17-one-year-on-what-really-happened-and-why/
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
aviationaware
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 2:30 pm

It has been clear from the beginning that this was Russia's doing. It's good there is evidence to prove it. Now all we need is a tougher stand against Russia. It would be a good start for Germany to include former chancellor and now Putin lapdog and lickspittle Gerhard Schroeder in all sanctions.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 2:38 pm

Balerit wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Balerit wrote:
Let's look at some facts. It was proven that it was an old missile from 1986 and only used by Ukraine. That specific plane was told to alter its course by ATC to fly over that particular spot, all other aircraft flew a different route, why? According to the video from JIT, the supposed missile was moved along a route to Ukraine for one specific shot and then returned to Russia. The fact that it went through Ukraine held positions without being shot at or at least stopped boggles the mind. How did the Russians know that that aircraft would deviate from it's course on that date and at that time? What motive did Russia have, what benefit did it have for them, it seems to me that the only motive was that of Ukraine?


We would be happy to look at facts. Unfortunately, you are perpetuating lies. No have no facts at all.


Where are your facts, the video? Well look at 1:19 on the video clearly not the same photo, sign post in wrong position, as is the photo at 1:25 where the font size is different on the sign. I could go on ad infinitum but it'll take two hours. Secondly there seems to be more than one convoy shown as not all trucks are the same or carrying the same equipment.

Did you even study my link? Are you disputing the age of the missile or the fact that ATC requested that said plane alter course? Can you prove anything in that video, say the direction of the vehicles for instance or do you just accept what the narrator is saying?

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pilots-of-air-india-plane-heard-ukraine-atc-asking-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-to-change-direction-2004730

You might want to read this as well:

https://off-guardian.org/2015/08/29/mh17-one-year-on-what-really-happened-and-why/


Did you read the official results of the investigation into this and the interim reports from the JIT? Scanned your articles and most is proven false and hes been dealt with in the official investigations.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Sat May 26, 2018 2:42 pm

aviationaware wrote:
It has been clear from the beginning that this was Russia's doing. It's good there is evidence to prove it. Now all we need is a tougher stand against Russia. It would be a good start for Germany to include former chancellor and now Putin lapdog and lickspittle Gerhard Schroeder in all sanctions.


If I may offer the following, even the relatives of the death try not to hate Russians, but held the Russian government responsible and that seems to be a good approach. The Dutch and Australian governments have formally hold Russia responsible, so we will see what will happen with that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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