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anrec80
Posts: 948
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:25 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Russia should at minimum hand over those responsible for this so they can be prosecuted. They are of course harboring a group of murderers that need to be brought to justice.

This act was just horrific, and I will never be able to shake the horrible images from that tragedy. Those families deserve justice. Putin should accept responsibility for his military's actions, and at minimum financially compensate the families of those lost. The finger pointing and denials are pathetic.


Who are “those responsible”? JIT still hasn’t named any, and they don’t have a clue even who could be operating those BUKs they claimed to have left 53rd brigade.

Second - Russian legislature prohibits handing over Russian citizens at constitutional level. No judge or prosecutor will turn a Russian citizen over. Period. JIT will need to go to a Russian court with their evidence and win the case there; there is no other way. Evidence has to be bullet proof of course. I understand it’s hard to gather - but if you don’t have any, all you do is accusing groundlessly. And that doesn’t help the justice either.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:32 pm

anrec80 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

Go on then mate: who did it, and where's your evidence.


We’ve been waiting for exactly that for 4 years now. All we have is a set up stage (first with that 777 cockpit, now with a piece of a missile), and “pictures from social media”.


You didn't answer my question. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming that the plane was shot down by a BUK launcher, if you dispute that then you cannot have looked at any evidence. The below picture is all the evidence you could need for that. The only question is who fired the missile. A missile of that nature has to be crewed by people with training, and training only comes from governments or militaries, or at least for this situation. Now, there is absolutely zero evidence of a missile launcher crewed by Ukrainian forces. None. There is some evidence that a BUK crossed the border from Russia. It may not be 100% perfect, but a damn sight better than absolutely nothing, with some fairly easily disproved conspiracies occasionally peddled by Russia.

So I reiterate: where's your evidence?

Image
 
QXAS
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:56 pm

sturmovik wrote:
For those asking how/why Russia would do it, may I suggest reading up on IR 655? Far more appropriate comparison than KAL007 imo.

I was thinking the same thing, does the TELAR have the ability to detect the transponder code in use by the aircraft? Would they have known it was a civilian code? The USS Vincennes AEGIS combat system determined that IR 655 was an F-14 based on its transponder code. After the recent attack on USS Cole the crew was on edge and shot down what they believed to be an imminent threat.
If the TELAR has the ability to detect transponder codes then it could be exactly like IR 655, or on the other hand if it has that ability and the aircraft was squawking a civilian code, that would be damning evidence.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:59 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
You sound like a Russian troll.

Don't be so abrasive...
I didn't post that to you, I posted it to JulietteBravo, who was making something up out of whole cloth. He sounds like a Russian troll. You do know that there are such people active on the internet, don't you? I thought I handled it delicately, I didn't accuse him; I said "you sound like..............".
flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
It is a matter of noticing the behavior of a target. This one was very high, at airliner height in fact. The TELAR has an altitude readout, it also has an elevation display. Then there is the already mentioned fact that the TELAR had been parked under the intersection of three airways. There are not many places on the globe like that.

Still does not prove intent to shoot down an airliner.
1. A grossly negligent commander would not care where he positions his SAM units, so they end up under a busy airway.
2. A highly competent commander trusts on his (perceived) ability to tell apart airliners and military jets, and positions his units there, knowing there are airways above. Just as a sort of camouflage.
#1, you're missing the point that the odds of randomly parking under a busy airline route intersection anywhere on earth (or along the Russian Ukrainian border) are very small. This tends to make it look intentional.
#2 You're hypothetical "highly competent commander" then goes about shooting an airliner at 33k on one of those routes by accident? That makes no sense.

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
Why are you slanting your view to favor the Russians? Why not look at it with a neutral eye?
You don't understand my thought process. Just to make 99.99999% sure that my judgement is right, I begin my thought process with the assumption that they tell the truth and that they have acted correctly. And then I eliminate what cannot be the truth. For example, that they gave two different, mutually exclusive explanations for the shootdown - first, an Ukrainian Buk, and then, an Ukrainian Su-25. Another damning piece of evidence were the Twitter postings that were hastily removed.
You begin your thought process with the assumption that the Russians tell the truth ? That's slanting your view towards the Russians, why do you slant your view to favor the Russians?

flyingturtle wrote:
I'm unwavering in my opinion that shooting down an airliner does not have any benefits at all. So it could never have been their intention. That's the point where I really, really believe what the Russian side is saying.
But it can be seen to have benefits to someone in the Russian chain of command who wants to heat things up, as at least one American commander did in the Gulf of Tonkin. So you have an unwavering false assumption working for you.

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
I assume that those tweets were posted by hangers on, truck drivers, mechanics etc. I am sure they got in deep dodo for making those tweets.

You assume something. Now, let's shoot down your assumption... those tweets were celebrating a shootdown! A truck driver or a mechanic cannot know so quickly that a shootdown happened. The only people who feel confident enough to make an nearly immediate celebratory Twitter posting about a shootdown are those who are related to the SAM unit. For example, people on a (para-)military command post.
Those truck drivers etc were standing a few hundred feet from the TELAR when it launched a missile. That's a pretty dramatic event, enough to get the average blue collar type quite excited.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:04 pm

QXAS wrote:
sturmovik wrote:
For those asking how/why Russia would do it, may I suggest reading up on IR 655? Far more appropriate comparison than KAL007 imo.

I was thinking the same thing, does the TELAR have the ability to detect the transponder code in use by the aircraft? Would they have known it was a civilian code? The USS Vincennes AEGIS combat system determined that IR 655 was an F-14 based on its transponder code. After the recent attack on USS Cole the crew was on edge and shot down what they believed to be an imminent threat.
If the TELAR has the ability to detect transponder codes then it could be exactly like IR 655, or on the other hand if it has that ability and the aircraft was squawking a civilian code, that would be damning evidence.
That isn't how military's use IFF codes. In wartime, they assign a code for their own planes, and shoot at anything not broadcasting that specific code. AA operators have no knowledge of ATC codes.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:07 pm

MrHMSH wrote:

So I reiterate: where's your evidence?

Image


Sure. Yes, it was BUK - nobody argues with that. If you remember - Russians showed specs of different versions of BUK missiles, what kind of actual damaging pieces each one has. They pointed that the damage traces on the cockpit are from earlier version of BUK, which Ukrainian air defenses had. Russians haven’t had that version in their military by the time of the tragedy.

They also carried out an experiment with Il-86 cockpit (similar in size to the one of 777), and exploded a BUK missile next to it. The experiment showed that the missile was approaching the plane from behind (i.e. from the West) - damage pattern was the same as on MH17. That’s something.

What’s the Ukrainian cooperation? Air traffic controller has disappeared and nothing was heard about her since that. We can only hope she is alive and well. They haven’t made public anything about their BUKs (despite witnesses stating they’ve been in the area). After all - Ukraine has shot down a civil airliner before that in 2001. They haven’t had any air defense trainings since.

So that leads me to think in Ukrainian direction. Just some monkey of theirs not knowing what they’re doing pressed that big red button. But Ukraine is on JIT.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
They pointed that the damage traces on the cockpit are from earlier version of BUK, which Ukrainian air defenses had. Russians haven’t had that version in their military by the time of the tragedy.


Funnily, the shrapnel found in the cockpit section has a different shape than the shrapnel used in the Ukrainian Buks.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:19 pm

In my opinion; the difference between IR 655 and MH 17 is that the USA admitted that they had shot down a passenger aircraft, and I think within 6 hours of the event from high level US Government sources. Russia has not and I don't believe ever will admit to the shoot-down. 1st step to be treated respectfully and differently - admit your mistakes (especially the big public ones). That is why the US is viewed differently than Russia.

As for the reviews and actions taken towards the USS Vincent Crew. That was based on the information available and the threat structure at the time. Sorry, most radar alone cannot identify an aircraft type and the vector was a potential threat to the USS Vincent; and the US was expecting hostile actions by Iran at the time - with justification (the gulf and Iran/US was quite "testy" at the time with minor military skirmishes fairly frequently - it was an open undeclared limited/minor war).

So the question is: Given the state of non-declared but active conflict between Iran and the US at the time, and the information that the US Vincent Command Control Center had about IR 655; their actions were considered reasonable and perhaps some commendable (most people would have reacted the same).

I do believe that the investigation at the time identified that the US Navy had not properly accounted for civilian air traffic in their data and decision tree (which might have changed the outcome); but, those decisions were made well before the incident and by people not on the US Vincent at the time. I understand that the US Navy incorporated some lessons learned and change those decision trees and process somewhat (keep in mind that hiding an attack aircraft next to a commercial airliner is always a possibility that cannot be dismissed; but, perhaps another minute could be taken to look at some other data).

So the US Vincent crew itself could only legitimately be evaluated on how they performed given the situation and the decision structure and orders they had. Also, given the ongoing undeclared conflict status; it's not the easiest to say that the US was automatically in the wrong for their military posture and readiness status at the time. So, why should they admit specific fault beyond that it was an unfortunate mistake. The USS Vincent had a legal right to be where it was and has a legal right to defend itself (no major international laws or treaties broken). I also understand that earlier settlements were declined by Iran as they wanted more than the US was willing to do in the political arena (the US would have easily have paid more to settle it quicker without those other demands - and Iran never got their other political requests).

In the case of the MH 17. Russia would have to admit that at least its equipment was illegally in another country and that their military was actively participating in the "Ukrainian" uprising; which could legitimately be labeled as an open act of war against Ukraine (with lots of very major international laws and treaties violated). Russia does not see admitting to that as having any real positives for them...

Russia has also blocked UN and World Court actions on this case so they cannot be held responsible in the institutions directly charged with resolving such cases. That does not mean that other institutions can not legally hold Russia at fault.

Have a great day,
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:34 pm

When does a military power ever accept responsibility? Think about Iran Air flight 655 and according to the USA, the US Vincennes confusing an Airbus A300 squawking a civilian code, with an attacking F-14. Why was the captain of the Vincennes not court marshaled and such an action leading to ending of his career? Did he have the backing from high up for such an action?


The shootdown essentially ended Captain Rogers' career. He was never promoted to admiral. He wasn't court martialed because his crew ID'd the Airbus as an F-14. He was acting based upon the best information available to him - flawed information, it turned out, but the best information he had at the moment. He also was aware of the inbound plane for perhaps four minutes, some sources say less, since he was working on a surface engagement issue. None of this is meant to excuse Captain Rogers for what happened. He was in command and ultimately responsible for his crew's actions and their training. It is simply meant to explain why it happened to a certain degree.

Captain Rogers was highly criticized within the navy for his actions. His handling of the Vincennes was questionable, to say the least. It is safe to say that his superiors were not happy with his performance. Taking a guided missile cruiser towards a gun battle with his speed patrol boats, as Rogers had done previously, certainly wasn't considered prudent, and he'd been criticized by the task force commander in writing for this and other actions before the shootdown. In addition, he violated Omani territorial waters. I think its probably a safe comment that even had the shootdown not occurred, Captain Rogers may not have retained command of Vincennes for another tour.

Iran also bears some responsibility for sending a jetliner on a flight plan towards a US task force during a time of open hostility. Sheesh, if you've been engaged in combat with a US Navy warship(s) then don't send departing aircraft towards that force! Iran may not have broken any laws, but they certainly acted irresponsibly in doing so, just as the crew of the Vincennes did by violating Iranian territorial waters on several occasions.

The USA did accept "basic" responsibility for the shootdown. Compensation was paid. Now, the US didn't come out and accept full unreserved responsibility because Vincennes was operating in a combat zone, had been in combat with Iranian forces (as had other US Navy assets), the Iranians had earlier fired on the Vincennes' helo in international waters, and for other reasons. In other words, the fog of war was at work, adding confusion to a fast developing and fluid situation. This situation was so totally apart from the Malaysian airliner disaster that it shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:41 pm

But it can be seen to have benefits to someone in the Russian chain of command who wants to heat things up, as at least one American commander did in the Gulf of Tonkin. So you have an unwavering false assumption working for you.


Um, no. The first attack did occur. USS Maddox was hit by a North Vietnamese patrol boat while in international waters. The remains of the shell are on display at the US Naval Academy at Annapolis. The second attack is what has historians vexed. Maddox was reinforced by a more modern destroyer, the USS Turner Joy. Both DDs believed initially that they were targeted the next night by North Vietnamese patrol boats, but upon later reflection and analysis of the radar and sonar data, the detachment commander wasn't so sure and contacted the chain of command saying that a "reevaluation" of the data should be made before any actions were taken. The White House didn't listen. So no, there weren't any commanders wanting to heat things up. What you had was a US Navy commander trying to cool things down. It was the politicians who wouldn't listen. When this all came congress wasn't happy. The text of the hearing excoriating then-Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara is quite interesting.
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:42 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Sure. Yes, it was BUK - nobody argues with that. If you remember - Russians showed specs of different versions of BUK missiles, what kind of actual damaging pieces each one has. They pointed that the damage traces on the cockpit are from earlier version of BUK, which Ukrainian air defenses had. Russians haven’t had that version in their military by the time of the tragedy.

They also carried out an experiment with Il-86 cockpit (similar in size to the one of 777), and exploded a BUK missile next to it. The experiment showed that the missile was approaching the plane from behind (i.e. from the West) - damage pattern was the same as on MH17. That’s something.

What’s the Ukrainian cooperation? Air traffic controller has disappeared and nothing was heard about her since that. We can only hope she is alive and well. They haven’t made public anything about their BUKs (despite witnesses stating they’ve been in the area). After all - Ukraine has shot down a civil airliner before that in 2001. They haven’t had any air defense trainings since.

So that leads me to think in Ukrainian direction. Just some monkey of theirs not knowing what they’re doing pressed that big red button. But Ukraine is on JIT.


The Air Incident Report by the Dutch investigation board kills your claims. The shrapnel pieces found in the crash was from the latest BUK warhead design (they could verify it right down to the exact model of the warhead)... and there is no evidence that such a modern warhead was ever supplied to Ukraine. The BUKs supplied to Ukraine did not have that warhead when supplied to them. It is conceivable that it could have been upgraded over the years... except that there are no records of the newer warhead being supplied to Ukraine to so such an upgrade. I think Russia would have loved to have supplied such documentation if they had it...

I understand that the Russian company that made the warhead cooperated with the investigation up to the point where they were asked for records of who had that warhead design - other than obviously the newest BUK missiles in Russian Military Inventory (it is know that a certain BUK model number has that warhead as standard production).

I understand that the Ukrainian Military allowed international inspectors to verify the warhead model on the Ukrainian BUK missiles (look at the nameplate & size/shape); who found only the old design warhead that was originally supplied with the BUK missiles to Ukraine in the past.

The Dutch Incident Report has pictures of the recovered warhead shrapnel and mfr supplied information on the BUK warhead that produces that shrapnel. Just so you know, warhead shrapnel design is often unique to each new design just to allow such a post event analysis and identification of the exact warhead used. There is no question here on in regards to the warhead used - and that there is no evidence that warhead was ever on the Ukrainian BUK Missile.

While it may be possible that the specific modern warhead may be on BUK missles supplied to other countries (N Korea, India, Syria, etc); it is highly unlikely that those countries supplied and transported a BUK launcher system (multi-vehicles) into Ukraine just across from the Russian border; and then quickly removed it after the shoot down.

Have a great day,
 
babastud
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:45 pm

This is a pure propaganda piece. MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian Fighter Jet. Any "independent" research was conducted by either NATO backed Govt or put pressure on by those forces. The purpose was to blame Russia and the Lughansk/Donetsk People's thus drawing sanctions, justification for invasion, etc. It was a false flag opp, everybody in Intelligence know's this, it's not a secret. BBC is just an MI6 mouthpiece. Please people wake up and do your own homework, your being lied to on a massive scale.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:55 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
You sound like a Russian troll.


Don't be so abrasive...

salttee wrote:
It is a matter of noticing the behavior of a target. This one was very high, at airliner height in fact. The TELAR has an altitude readout, it also has an elevation display. Then there is the already mentioned fact that the TELAR had been parked under the intersection of three airways. There are not many places on the globe like that.


Still does not prove intent to shoot down an airliner.
1. A grossly negligent commander would not care where he positions his SAM units, so they end up under a busy airway.
2. A highly competent commander trusts on his (perceived) ability to tell apart airliners and military jets, and positions his units there, knowing there are airways above. Just as a sort of camouflage.

salttee wrote:
Why are you slanting your view to favor the Russians? Why not look at it with a neutral eye?


You don't understand my thought process. Just to make 99.99999% sure that my judgement is right, I begin my thought process with the assumption that they tell the truth and that they have acted correctly. And then I eliminate what cannot be the truth. For example, that they gave two different, mutually exclusive explanations for the shootdown - first, an Ukrainian Buk, and then, an Ukrainian Su-25. Another damning piece of evidence were the Twitter postings that were hastily removed.

I'm unwavering in my opinion that shooting down an airliner does not have any benefits at all. So it could never have been their intention. That's the point where I really, really believe what the Russian side is saying.

salttee wrote:
I assume that those tweets were posted by hangers on, truck drivers, mechanics etc. I am sure they got in deep dodo for making those tweets.


You assume something. Now, let's shoot down your assumption... those tweets were celebrating a shootdown! A truck driver or a mechanic cannot know so quickly that a shootdown happened. The only people who feel confident enough to make an nearly immediate celebratory Twitter posting about a shootdown are those who are related to the SAM unit. For example, people on a (para-)military command post.


David



That is a bit naive dont you think?
Ukraine was dropping paratroops by the border trying to surround rebel forces. In such cases the transports behaving like an airliner would be one of the obvious tactics.
Knowing that SAM's were active in the area, all airways above the area should have been closed.
Ukraine was probably keeping the airways open to use airliners as lures for the SAM's, hoping the paratroop transporters would be able to go unnoticed among them and assuming that the rebels would hold their fire if in doubt.
Last edited by Waterbomber on Thu May 24, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
speedbird52
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:56 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.

Just like we punished America for their state sanctioned downing of an Iranian A300



Oh wait.
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:58 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Um, no. The first attack did occur. USS Maddox was hit by a North Vietnamese patrol boat while in international waters. The remains of the shell are on display at the US Naval Academy at Annapolis. The second attack is what has historians vexed. Maddox was reinforced by a more modern destroyer, the USS Turner Joy. Both DDs believed initially that they were targeted the next night by North Vietnamese patrol boats, but upon later reflection and analysis of the radar and sonar data, the detachment commander wasn't so sure and contacted the chain of command saying that a "reevaluation" of the data should be made before any actions were taken. The White House didn't listen. So no, there weren't any commanders wanting to heat things up. What you had was a US Navy commander trying to cool things down. It was the politicians who wouldn't listen. When this all came congress wasn't happy. The text of the hearing excoriating then-Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara is quite interesting.
There are a number of problems here, one is that the Maddox and Turner Joy were operating with South Vietnamese PT boats which were conducting raids on North Vietnam. That information was kept under wraps. But if you're a Navy guy and you want to shift the "blame" up to a Higher level, that doesn't bother me. It doesn't change the fact that someone at some level in the Russian military may have wanted to escalate, in the Ukraine incident.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:02 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
That is a bit naive dont you think?
Ukraine was dropping paratroops by the border trying to surround rebel forces. In such cases the transports behaving like an airliner would be one of the obvious tactics.
Knowing that SAM's were active in the area, all airways above the area should have been closed.
Ukraine was probably keeping the airways open to use airliners as lures for the SAM's, hoping the paratroop transporters would be able to go unnoticed among them and assuming that the rebels would hold their fire if in doubt.

*yawn*
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:09 pm

When this flight was shot down, the ensuing dialogue was - to me - troubling in how clearly there were people here on this board with ulterior (and likely financial) motives for posting. It’s not that I didn’t know that type of thing took place, but rather it was the grossness of feeling like an actual government is trying to influence the direction of a message board dialogue. It’s an odd feeling being part of that, and it’s weird that it’s all starting back up again.

Just the world we live in.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:13 pm

In case someone is interested in all the different legal aspects of MH17, there's an extensive article in English by a Dutch expert on international law (who was on the Dutch tv news tonight) at https://utrechtjournal.org/article/10.5334/ujiel.368/

Today's briefing by the JIT is focused mainly on the criminal prosecution in a Dutch court of those directly responsible but there are many other aspects that might become relevant again at some point.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:16 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
In addition, he violated Omani territorial waters.


If I remember right: In pursuit of the annoying boats, the Vincennes entered Iranian waters.

Here we are again...

salttee wrote:
#1, you're missing the point that the odds of randomly parking under a busy airline route intersection anywhere on earth (or along the Russian Ukrainian border) are very small. This tends to make it look intentional.
#2 You're hypothetical "highly competent commander" then goes about shooting an airliner at 33k on one of those routes by accident? That makes no sense.


Even if something is improbable, it's not proof. We do not know how and why they decided to place the SAM site there, because this entirely happened inside the minds of the persons involved. And if there were written documents, we may never get them. And AF447 is evidence that highly competent people can bungle up the easiest of things. Nobody read the damned procedure...

salttee wrote:
You begin your thought process with the assumption that the Russians tell the truth ? That's slanting your view towards the Russians, why do you slant your view to favor the Russians?


Assuming good faith and giving the benefit of doubt is, in fact, quite evil. By working backwards, I really know I'm right when I make an accusation. That way, I can make my statements unassailable.

salttee wrote:
But it can be seen to have benefits to someone in the Russian chain of command who wants to heat things up, as at least one American commander did in the Gulf of Tonkin. So you have an unwavering false assumption working for you.


The Gulf of Tonkin incident was already covered by somebody else, I see. So you assume the existence of somebody who wants to heat up the situation. So, what do you assume would be the wanted reaction? So you assume a cunning guy who is willing to kill 298 people and risk a huge international backlash, but has actually next to zero chance of luring the EU, Ukraine, NATO or the US in a trap? Nobody risks any escalation with Russia to avenge an airliner and 298 deaths. Nobody. Our leaders are neither called Bush nor Trump.

I just don't get it.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:31 pm

petertenthije wrote:
aw70 wrote:
I just wish they had found a different way to publish their findings, and that they had involved investigators from some non-western powers which clearly have no interest in the matter either way (South Americans? Chinese? Japanese?).
Malaysia is involved in the investigation.


Malaysia clearly has an interest in this investigation. Anyway, given Malaysia's track record regarding the way they handled their other MH 777 incident from earlier in that same year, the value of their participation in the investigation is questionable.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9,306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:50 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Ukraine was probably keeping the airways open to use airliners as lures for the SAM's, hoping the paratroop transporters would be able to go unnoticed among them and assuming that the rebels would hold their fire if in doubt.


O RLY?

There have been countless shootdowns of Ukrainian planes previously, and MH17 was the wake-up-call. Only then they knew rebels (or their Russian helpers) had access to weapons with which they can shoot down planes at such an altitude.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:00 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Who are “those responsible”? JIT still hasn’t named any, and they don’t have a clue even who could be operating those BUKs they claimed to have left 53rd brigade.

Second - Russian legislature prohibits handing over Russian citizens at constitutional level. No judge or prosecutor will turn a Russian citizen over. Period. JIT will need to go to a Russian court with their evidence and win the case there; there is no other way. Evidence has to be bullet proof of course. I understand it’s hard to gather - but if you don’t have any, all you do is accusing groundlessly. And that doesn’t help the justice either.


The JIT do have a list of suspects and people they would like to talk to because they must know more. Part of the line of command of the 53rd brigade is public knowledge.

Secondly, Dutch legislature allows trial in absentia so those responsible can be convicted without any Russian court. Enforcing the sentence will be a bit more difficult but Russian Federation will become even more of an outcast in the rest of the world including more sanctions etc. I don't expect Putin will be in power much longer so once he is gone the Russians will again have the choice to conform to international justice.
 
salttee
Posts: 2470
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:11 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
In addition, he violated Omani territorial waters.

If I remember right: In pursuit of the annoying boats, the Vincennes entered Iranian waters.
Here we are again...
As Aptivaboy said: "he violated Omani territorial waters". Why do you want to push back at everything said to you?
flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
#1, you're missing the point that the odds of randomly parking under a busy airline route intersection anywhere on earth (or along the Russian Ukrainian border) are very small. This tends to make it look intentional.
#2 You're hypothetical "highly competent commander" then goes about shooting an airliner at 33k on one of those routes by accident? That makes no sense.


Even if something is improbable, it's not proof. We do not know how and why they decided to place the SAM site there, because this entirely happened inside the minds of the persons involved. And if there were written documents, we may never get them. And AF447 is evidence that highly competent people can bungle up the easiest of things. Nobody read the damned procedure...
You are moving the ball. You made a couple of hypothetical assertions and I shot them both down, so you retort by bring in an entirely new point of view (We do not know how and why they decided to place the SAM site there), the only consistency in your argument is that you want to argue. Of course we don't "know" for certain why they located the TELAR there, but its location there certainly raises questions. Why don't you want to address them?

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
You begin your thought process with the assumption that the Russians tell the truth ? That's slanting your view towards the Russians, why do you slant your view to favor the Russians?
Assuming good faith and giving the benefit of doubt is, in fact, quite evil. By working backwards, I really know I'm right when I make an accusation. That way, I can make my statements unassailable.
You sound like an attorney for the defense of Russia. Are you aware of that?

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
But it can be seen to have benefits to someone in the Russian chain of command who wants to heat things up, as at least one American commander did in the Gulf of Tonkin. So you have an unwavering false assumption working for you.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident was already covered by somebody else
There was a USN guy who wanted to debate technical points with me about our local issue. Nothing is changed about my above response. Again: you sound like an attorney for the defense of Russia.

flyingturtle wrote:
I see. So you assume the existence of somebody who wants to heat up the situation. So, what do you assume would be the wanted reaction? So you assume a cunning guy who is willing to kill 298 people and risk a huge international backlash, but has actually next to zero chance of luring the EU, Ukraine, NATO or the US in a trap? Nobody risks any escalation with Russia to avenge an airliner and 298 deaths. Nobody. Our leaders are neither called Bush nor Trump. I just don't get it. David
Your sticking up for the Russian POV has now gotten over the top. You sound like a shill.
 
Ugly51
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:58 pm

winstonlegthigh wrote:
What a stunning development. Nostradamus himself wouldn't have seen this coming.

They should take a closer look at the Polish government plane that went down. I'm sure there will be no surprises there, either.


I am not quite so sure about the Polish Tu-134. I watched a Polish film about this two years ago. There are still a hell of a lot of important unanswered questions.
Especially considering Russian Air Traffic Control. Especially on the approach phase of the flight.
Interesting times ahead.
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:13 am

Waterbomber wrote:

That is a bit naive dont you think?
Ukraine was dropping paratroops by the border trying to surround rebel forces. In such cases the transports behaving like an airliner would be one of the obvious tactics.
Knowing that SAM's were active in the area, all airways above the area should have been closed.
Ukraine was probably keeping the airways open to use airliners as lures for the SAM's, hoping the paratroop transporters would be able to go unnoticed among them and assuming that the rebels would hold their fire if in doubt.


I have never seen a paratrooper or cargo drop airplane fly at the altitudes and speeds of a 777. They typically operate quite low and fairly slow, which is why shoulder launched missiles had been successfully used against them. I'm not even sure if most common paratrooper aircraft could exceed 30,000 ft in altitude if they tried.

While I understand that errors can occur; the radar for a BUK system does indicate altitude and speed; and likely flight path (direct into Russia); and MH 17 was clearly not a paratrooper or ground support cargo drop aircraft based on altitude and speed, and Ukraine had not been known to fly aircraft into Russian airspace..

What is an occasionally practiced military maneuver is to hide a small fighter jet or certain small attack aircraft along side or above/under a commercial airliner. I may be wrong; but I don't think Ukraine had any such aircraft in the area that could do this with a 777 at normal altitude and speed.

Have a great day,
 
ikramerica
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:16 am

alfa164 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
How did this get switched to a discussion of the Iran Air tragedy? It was 30 years ago in a different world with different technology available. The USA admitted it happened even if the quality of the admission and response is in doubt.
Russia still hasn’t owned up to the incident. There is a difference.


The discussion always gets switched when the Russian apologists/lemmings/trolls hop on every website - as most of them are paid to do - and attempt to distract everyone from the clear issue at hand. Confusion>doubt is their game plan... and, for some weak minds, it works.

Dutchy wrote:
algeorge2015 wrote:
dont know what to believe and what not to believe - did the truth ever came out in all other cases (also MH370 another case)

and there you have the goal of Russian propaganda, to confuse you.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

I realized that a bit after I posted. Of course it’s Russian operatives steering the discussion.

Iran Air has nothing to do with it other than a comparison. But it’s not a disputed event at this point and whether the USA owned up to it correctly doesn’t matter. It’s many presidents ago.

The person in charge in Russia then (MH17) is still there now.

As for sanctions, I’m not advocating them. But how does the fact some people want to “punish” Russia make Iran Air more relevant?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
JulietteBravo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:26 am

salttee wrote:
JulietteBravo wrote:
Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.
You sound like a Russian troll. There never has been any indication that the tweet author was the commander of the BUK. That's made up BS from you.


You might definitely have got me wrong here - It is very clear to me and the investigation lead by the dutch state investigators says that it was a russian BUK from the Kursk 53th batallion that they brought to east ukraine. Transport of the BUK is very well documented here https://mh17.correctiv.org/wegbuk_german/

My only statement was that they intended to shoot planes of the ukrainian air force and not MH17 with this BUK from Russia. That doesn‘t make that any better.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:41 am

Stating that it was the commander who sent the tweet was a falsehood with ramifications to other facets of the discussion. There is nothing to indicate who sent the tweet.
Then there is the fact that you don't know what the TELAR operator was intending to fire on. Because you have no way to know that.

There are other discussions going on here that you don't seem to know about - or you are trying to derail.
 
Varsity1
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:44 am

Russia is trying to destabalize Europe and break up NATO.

Georgia, Donbass, Crimea...

They have chosen to become a strategic compeditor to the west for no reason other than internal power gain.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:51 am

Is this not an act of war by Russia ? Against NATO civilians ? How can Holland still maintain diplomatic relations with Russia ?
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 542
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:56 am

There are a number of problems here, one is that the Maddox and Turner Joy were operating with South Vietnamese PT boats which were conducting raids on North Vietnam. That information was kept under wraps. But if you're a Navy guy and you want to shift the "blame" up to a Higher level, that doesn't bother me. It doesn't change the fact that someone at some level in the Russian military may have wanted to escalate, in the Ukraine incident.


The Maddox was aware of the covert operations but not involved. She was on a DESOTO patrol, essentially SIGINT surveillance and intelligence collection and was NOT operating in support of the covert ops. And, whatever the covert ops folks were doing the Maddox remained well outside of North Vietnamese territorial waters. When the covert operation most closely linked in time to the Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred, she was well over 100 miles away.

The commanders on the scene stated that they weren’t sure that the second attack took place. Commander Herrick, the Maddox’s commanding officer, later sent the following message up the chain of command: "Review of action makes many reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather effects on radar and overeager sonarmen may have accounted for many reports. No actual visual sightings by Maddox. Suggest complete evaluation before any further action taken.” The local commanders (admiral in rank) also sent messages up through CinCPac requesting that no action be taken until they ahd time to really dissect what had happened, if anything. They were ignored.

Needless to say, no reevaluation took place. That wasn’t the fault of the commanding officers of Maddox nor Turner Joy. No, that decision took place at a much higher level. Again, if you’ll Google the text of the grilling McNamara received from Senator Fulbright in 1968 or 1969, I think it was, you’ll see that the decision to accept the second attack as genuine came not from the navy but from the administration. Faulty intelligence gathering and analysis from the NSA also likely played a huge part. A simple translation error from an intercepted North Vietnamese transmission indicating that an attack had taken place was actually found later to have said that there was no attack, and just what were those crazy Americans talking about?

And no, I’m not in the navy. However, I had family sent ot Vietnam. I lost my father in Vietnam. This subject is very dear and important to me. My hatred of LBJ and Robert McNamara is... Legendary. I'm also an educator and guess what one of the things I teach it? Yep, Vietnam. I'd like to think that my background gives me a unique perspective that others may not possess.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 12:58 am

If I remember right: In pursuit of the annoying boats, the Vincennes entered Iranian waters.


Captain Rogers violated both country's territorial waters at various times. An Omani frigate or corvette eventually came out and ordered him to leave their waters. Yes, this was during a skirmish with the Iranian boats. Things like this earned Captain Rogers a bit of a cowboy reputation amongst the local American commanders.
 
JulietteBravo
Posts: 115
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 1:00 am

salttee wrote:
Stating that it was the commander who sent the tweet was a falsehood with ramifications to other facets of the discussion. There is nothing to indicate who sent the tweet.
Then there is the fact that you don't know what the TELAR operator was intending to fire on. Because you have no way to know that.

There are other discussions going on here that you don't seem to know about - or you are trying to derail.


True, i don‘t know who operated the BUK.
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 1:03 am

salttee wrote:
Then there is the fact that you don't know what the TELAR operator was intending to fire on. Because you have no way to know that.

Not even the TELAR operator had any way of knowing what he was intending to fire on since it seems they were using an incomplete system without full radar support. However this means they willingly and knowingly accepted the risk of hitting a civilian plane and thus can be held guilty of that crime.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 1:12 am

RJWNL wrote:
Not even the TELAR operator had any way of knowing what he was intending to fire on since it seems they were using an incomplete system without full radar support. However this means they willingly and knowingly accepted the risk of hitting a civilian plane and thus can be held guilty of that crime.
A skilled and knowledgeable TELAR operator would have had plenty of information to tell him he was firing on an airliner.

Also, we don't know if the TELAR was operating under the control of it's fire control director; it very well could have been under battalion control, that's how the BUK system is operated normally. Under normal operation a TELAR only goes solo if the battalion search radar is knocked out.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 1:31 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
This subject is very dear and important to me. My hatred of LBJ and Robert McNamara is... Legendary. I'm also an educator and guess what one of the things I teach it? Yep, Vietnam. I'd like to think that my background gives me a unique perspective that others may not possess.
A dozen years ago I participated in a very informative discussion on this subject. Between the two of us we uncovered quite a bit of what seemed to us as unknown information from official records.

You can read the thread if you want.
https://forums.craigslist.org/?ID=51285718

You can guess who I was.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 1:43 am

ikramerica wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
How did this get switched to a discussion of the Iran Air tragedy? It was 30 years ago in a different world with different technology available. The USA admitted it happened even if the quality of the admission and response is in doubt.
Russia still hasn’t owned up to the incident. There is a difference.


The discussion always gets switched when the Russian apologists/lemmings/trolls hop on every website - as most of them are paid to do - and attempt to distract everyone from the clear issue at hand. Confusion>doubt is their game plan... and, for some weak minds, it works.

Dutchy wrote:
and there you have the goal of Russian propaganda, to confuse you.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

I realized that a bit after I posted. Of course it’s Russian operatives steering the discussion.

Iran Air has nothing to do with it other than a comparison. But it’s not a disputed event at this point and whether the USA owned up to it correctly doesn’t matter. It’s many presidents ago.

The person in charge in Russia then (MH17) is still there now.

As for sanctions, I’m not advocating them. But how does the fact some people want to “punish” Russia make Iran Air more relevant?


Of course Russia is responsible for downing MH17, be it that a Russian unit did it themselves or some militia the Russians supplied the missile to.
If people do not believe a Dutch investigation, they will not believe an international investigation.

I am talking about the expectation that Russia should own up to the action, or should allow an international committee to research this action and there comes the comparison to Iran Air flight 655. Big military powers will not agree to independent investigations and will not accept fault. In the case of flight 655, there was no possibility to point to somebody else and even than a western democracy can not accept to be at fault, would never ever agree to an international investigation. How than does somebody expect a country like Russia to admit to this action or allow an international investigation into their country.
 
Sydscott
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Of course Russia is responsible for downing MH17, be it that a Russian unit did it themselves or some militia the Russians supplied the missile to.
If people do not believe a Dutch investigation, they will not believe an international investigation.

I am talking about the expectation that Russia should own up to the action, or should allow an international committee to research this action and there comes the comparison to Iran Air flight 655. Big military powers will not agree to independent investigations and will not accept fault. In the case of flight 655, there was no possibility to point to somebody else and even than a western democracy can not accept to be at fault, would never ever agree to an international investigation. How than does somebody expect a country like Russia to admit to this action or allow an international investigation into their country.


Every objective observer knows Russia is responsible and the over-whelming evidence collected by the Dutch Lead, multi-national investigation team clears and comprehensively shows this.

There is no expectation that Russia will own up and tell the truth about what happened because they are basically now a belligerent power who don't want to do anything in Europe other than de-stabliise it. As long as the people can be tried in asbsentia in The Netherlands and all of the evidence can be put before a Court and tested in Court then that's as much as will probably happen.
 
ryanov
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 4:44 am

Psh, yeah, I’m a Russian operative because I just want to stop the U-S-A U-S-A type stuff and don’t think the Cold War was awesome. I live in New Jersey, man. I just think if a country has done essentially the exact same thing, maybe they shouldn’t criticize.

I suspect it’s cold comfort for anyone on board either plane, or their loved ones, to hear some general musing about the fog of war.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 5:10 am

anrec80 wrote:
Who are “those responsible”? JIT still hasn’t named any, and they don’t have a clue even who could be operating those BUKs they claimed to have left 53rd brigade.

Second - Russian legislature prohibits handing over Russian citizens at constitutional level. No judge or prosecutor will turn a Russian citizen over. Period. JIT will need to go to a Russian court with their evidence and win the case there; there is no other way. Evidence has to be bulletproof of course. I understand it’s hard to gather - but if you don’t have any, all you do is accusing groundlessly. And that doesn’t help the justice either.


Now it has been proven that it was a Russian military missile, don't you think Russia should own up to this? JIT has dozens of people under investigation and will charge them if they are ready. If Russia don't want to extradite these people, that is up to them, they can still be trailed in abstance and then it is up to them to show up or not. But more importantly read the open letter of the people whom were left behind because of this.

In June the world will turn its eyes toward Russia for the Football World Cup. It will be a long awaited and joyous event. For most Russians it will also be an occasion of deep national pride.

Some of us who write these words are passionate followers of football, others are not. But none of us will be able to share in this World Cup in the way we would have done before. We have something in common that gives this event and the place in which it is held, a different, darker meaning.

On July 17, 2014 Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine. Two hundred and ninety eight people were killed. Among the bodies lying among the debris and fields of sunflowers were our children, our partners, our brothers and sisters, our parents.


The impact on our lives
Despite it being nearly four years since our lives were shattered, we struggle to comprehend what happened. The people we love were killed in a war, a war in which they were not combatants, a war they had nothing to do with. We know they are not the only victims of this confrontation. More than 10, 000 people have been killed, the majority of them civilians. Their families are grieving like ours, not understanding why the people they love have been snatched from them. It is the finality of death that is so painful. We could live with a separation, even of years, if we knew it had an end.

We, as families of those killed on MH17, are still breathing, but the lives we had also came to a close that day. We are not the same people we were before. The world we live in is darker and less hopeful. We have struggled to maintain faith in human goodness. It may be that some of us will find some sense of purpose and happiness again. But we will always be marked by the brutal and sudden death of those we love.

Even more though, this callous act has defined the people we love. Their stories, which should have gone on, have come to an abrupt stop. We now cannot experience them, we can only remember them. Part of our remembering must be to speak of the wrongfulness of their deaths and urging that those responsible for this crime are called to account. The people we love can no longer speak for themselves.

We know there is a long history between Russia and Ukraine and there are different perspectives on what led to conflict erupting in 2014. No nation state is blameless, including our own. All nations have a right to flourish as best they can, without impeding or violating the rights of others. All parties must be prepared to face what part they have played in the conflict. But whatever the history and exact circumstances, that can never justify the shooting down of a passenger plane and the killing of all those on board. How do we respond to that?

Questions of hate and responsibility
Like all who have suffered the violent death of people we love, we are tempted to respond with hate. But we have to separate ordinary Russian people from the individuals responsible - the chain of command that led to the shooting down of MH17. Most of us don’t know Russian people well. Hate and distrust come partly from ignorance and when we know more of a person’s story, that can change how we see things. We know that the Russian people have a right to thrive, as did our loved ones. Still, we struggle. If we are able to change it will take time. But we know that giving in to hatred and bitterness would consume us and, unchecked among the nations, it will destroy human life on this planet.

It is easier when we remember we are all human beings and what we have in common. Some of us saw the faces of Russian families after Metrojet Flight 9268 was bombed and crashed over Egypt in October 2015, killing all 224 people on board. They were overwhelmed with grief, struggling to comprehend what had happened. We understand that disbelief, the horror of your loved one’s lives being taken violently and without warning. If ever we met those families perhaps we could start a conversation, for we would already know a central truth about each other’s lives.

No, we do not blame the Russian people for what happened. We are not against you. We hold the Russian state and its leaders as ultimately responsible for the deaths of our family members. All the credible evidence points in that direction. It has already been a long wait for us, but sometime in the future the five nation Joint Investigation Team will deliver its final report and people will be named. Then it will be up to the appointed court in the Netherlands to carefully weigh the evidence and reach a conclusion about which individuals were responsible.

The importance of truth
We have confidence in the thoroughness and impartiality of the work conducted by the Joint Investigation Team. The same cannot be said about the reporting on MH17 coming out of Russian state media channels. In the first months some of us were troubled by the multiple, often contradictory stories about what happened to MH17 coming out of Russia. “MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet.” “It was blown up by a missile intended for the Russian President’s plane.” “It was already full of dead bodies and deliberately crashed.” “It was shot down by a BUK missile but not one of Russia’s.” These shocking, disturbing and contradictory stories were then magnified 1000 fold in posts on different social media. All this material was distressing. Some of us had doubts. It is only later that we came to understand that this was exactly what was intended. These practices are part of a coordinated state campaign of misinformation intended to distract and confuse, to create an alternative reality in which all truth is relative and no information can be trusted. The Russian state media, as well as private media channels that cooperate with the state, are complicit in this vile and deceitful campaign. We know that all countries, including our own, bend the truth and tell lies sometimes. But do Russian people really want to live in a country where the truth has ceased to exist? Perhaps some of you reading this already think that we do not exist and that this article is made up?

Well, we are real, and our hope is that ultimately truth will prevail.

We appeal again for the Russian government to cooperate fully with the international investigation into MH17. It will not bring our families back but the truth does matter, the truth does exist and we want those responsible for MH17 to be identified and held accountable. We teach our children when they are small that they must own up to their mistakes and take responsibility for their actions. We want our governments to do the same. We ask Russia to do the same.

Shared humanity
In recent months world tensions have increased. In an atmosphere of hostility and distrust we need international systems based on the rule of law, where each has confidence that justice and fairness is at least possible. We also need to recover our sense of shared humanity. Ultimately, we are all in this together on this one, small, blue planet.

In 2014 our children and families lay lifeless amidst the fields and sunflowers of Eastern Ukraine. In 2015 Russian children and families lay lifeless on the stones and sand of the Egyptian desert. In death we are not so different. Barriers of language, culture, differences in race or religion no longer matter. What remains is loss and love. Human loss and love.

This World Cup
All this is in our minds and hearts as we contemplate this World Cup in Russia. Football is called the world game. More nations play this game than any other. At its best football can mirror what is admirable about us all - our distinct styles of play, our culture, our singing and dress, our obvious passion or our steely discipline, our skill, courage and creativity, the sheer joy of play, the desire to strive and be tested to our utmost, and the respect we give those with whom we compete.

At its worst football can mirror the ugliness of which we are also capable. It can descend into a closed minded and aggressive nationalism, reinforcing divisions and prejudices, opening old wounds and inflicting new ones.

The football World Cup can be a celebration of our shared humanity. It can be an example, however fleeting, of our capacity to live with each other in peace. If it is that, then we might be better able to lift our heads to watch.

May this World Cup be played in a good spirit. We hope that it is a success and something in which ordinary Russian people can take pleasure and pride. But we cannot deny that from our perspective, a shadow hangs over this event. We are painfully aware of the dark irony that the Russian leaders who will profess to welcome the world with open arms, are those who are chiefly to blame for shattering our world. And that it is these same leaders who have persistently sought to hide the truth, and who have evaded responsibility ever since that dreadful day in July 2014.


https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/20 ... 173f6b98b4

It is impressive from these people and they are correct of course, it is not the Russian people, it is the Russian governement whom is not working with the MH17 investigation.

Russia should own up to what they have done, that is the bottom line.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 6:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
Russia should own up to what they have done, that is the bottom line.
The problem is Dutchy, they won't do that even if you put both your hands on your hips and glare at them.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 6:40 am

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia should own up to what they have done, that is the bottom line.
The problem is Dutchy, they won't do that even if you put both your hands on your hips and glare at them.


I believe that they will in the end, call me an optimist, it might just take a few decades. In the meantime, we can keep reminding everyone about the facts whom tries to cast doubt, do another whataboutism or flatly deny the outcome of the JIT.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
dampfnudel
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 6:55 am

I don’t think the Dutch, EU, Hague or anyone else can do anything that would effectively bring justice for the victims of MH 17 and their families without a ton of negative economic consequences, especially for the EU. Of course, I think there will come a point where there will be a reckoning if the Russian government continues on this reckless and arrogant path.
A313 343 B703 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
aw70
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:04 am

As I already said earlier, my concern with this new development is that those who don't believe that Russia is responsible still have plenty of wiggle room, in several areas.

The warhead design.

The Dutch investigators claim that shrapnel and warhead fragments found in the aircraft wreckage unequivocally show that the used version of the missile was one that the Ukrainian troops never had at their disposal. Fair enough, that is probably the case. However, none of this is based on publicly verifiable information: so the general public basically has to take the word of the Western investigators for this. Not good, if you have Russia running a full counter-information campaign in the other direction. The Dutch probably need to make all relevant information available, even if this means showing classified material to the public.

The presence of Ukrainian launchers in the area at the time

It also does not help public perception of the case the Dutch are trying to build that the deployment of Ukrainian missile units to the area in question has not been documented very well so far. What would be needed is a complete overview of where the heavy Ukrainian AA units were on that day - all of them. Preferably with some sort of evidence.

The thing is, the Ukrainian forces had all reason to deploy their own BUK systems near rebel territory that day. These missiles were their only hope of keeping high-flying Russian military aircraft from actively engaging on the side of the rebels: something that was very much a possibility at that point in time. Due to this it would have been very odd if the Ukrainians had not deployed their only high altitude AA asset in that theatre. Which, in turn, means that they would have been in places where the Ukrainian launchers could also easily have hit MH17.

This is not to say that the Ukrainians actually downed MH17, of course. All I am saying is that one is again making it rather easy for the Russian side if one does not disclose, in total and exhaustive detail, what the Ukrainian side was up to on that day. Where each and every one of their launchers was, and all that.

Total transparency is the only option for the Western side in this case. Nothing short of that will work, as this is the only way to remove the fog of doubt under which the Russian counter-information campaigns have been operating.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:11 am

It sounds to me as if you are trying to sow some doubt. Or testing the water for what works for sowing doubt.
None of your suggestions hold any water for me. It all sounds like the same tired Russian bullshit.
 
worldranger
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 7:31 am

The long methodical slow march of justice in a civilized and democratic country like the Netherlands will prevail - eventually somehow, someone will pay.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 9:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

So I reiterate: where's your evidence?

Image


Sure. Yes, it was BUK - nobody argues with that. If you remember - Russians showed specs of different versions of BUK missiles, what kind of actual damaging pieces each one has. They pointed that the damage traces on the cockpit are from earlier version of BUK, which Ukrainian air defenses had. Russians haven’t had that version in their military by the time of the tragedy.

They also carried out an experiment with Il-86 cockpit (similar in size to the one of 777), and exploded a BUK missile next to it. The experiment showed that the missile was approaching the plane from behind (i.e. from the West) - damage pattern was the same as on MH17. That’s something.

What’s the Ukrainian cooperation? Air traffic controller has disappeared and nothing was heard about her since that. We can only hope she is alive and well. They haven’t made public anything about their BUKs (despite witnesses stating they’ve been in the area). After all - Ukraine has shot down a civil airliner before that in 2001. They haven’t had any air defense trainings since.

So that leads me to think in Ukrainian direction. Just some monkey of theirs not knowing what they’re doing pressed that big red button. But Ukraine is on JIT.


And yet the Putin adapts (even the ones claiming from Ukraine) still want to cast doubts. It is proven now that it was a Russian military missile, no doubt anymore. You can think about it in any way you like, that doesn't change the facts anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 9:22 am

flyingturtle wrote:
O RLY?

There have been countless shootdowns of Ukrainian planes previously, and MH17 was the wake-up-call. Only then they knew rebels (or their Russian helpers) had access to weapons with which they can shoot down planes at such an altitude.


David


An An-26 was shot down on the 14th of July at an altitude of 21.000 ft. Thats 3 days before MH17. FYI, there is no SAM system that can reach an aircraft at 21.000 ft, but not reach 33.000 ft. Shoulder launched missiles can't reach anywhere near 21.000 ft. This incident was a clear indicator that the rebels had some seriously powerful stuff in their hands, and should have been a wake-up call to any competent authority.
Further, just the day prior to MH17, a Russian MiG-29 shot down a Ukrainian Su-25 with a BVR missile. Again a clear red flag that airliners should stay far, far away.


2175301 wrote:
I have never seen a paratrooper or cargo drop airplane fly at the altitudes and speeds of a 777. They typically operate quite low and fairly slow, which is why shoulder launched missiles had been successfully used against them. I'm not even sure if most common paratrooper aircraft could exceed 30,000 ft in altitude if they tried.

While I understand that errors can occur; the radar for a BUK system does indicate altitude and speed; and likely flight path (direct into Russia); and MH 17 was clearly not a paratrooper or ground support cargo drop aircraft based on altitude and speed, and Ukraine had not been known to fly aircraft into Russian airspace..


During ingress and egress they would be flying high and fast, and an Il-76 (which Ukraine does operate, and did use in the ATO) certainly would look a lot like a 777 in that regard. Fastmovers like MiG-29s or Su-24s would also fly very similar profiles, as would reconnaissance planes. Thats assuming the operator even knows how fast or high an aircraft would be capable of flying.

Contrary to what some other posters wrote, these systems don't require highly trained operators. They were designed to be operated by mere conscripts, and tens of thousands of conscripts got trained on them over the years. I did a training course for an airline in Eastern Europe some weeks ago. A surprising amount of the participants had worked on SAM systems with no prior experience as conscripts, 3 of them on BUKs. There are a lot of people in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union who know how to operate a BUK in the most basic modes, should they ever get hold of one. Which probably makes the whole situation much worse, since the training is probably too spotty and outdated to allow them to distinguish between a 777 and an Il-76.
Lets not forget that it was also "professional" Ukrainian SAM operators who accidentally shot down that Tu-154 back in 2001 as well. These are far from failsafe systems operated by competent organizations.

Waterbomber wrote:
That is a bit naive dont you think?
Ukraine was dropping paratroops by the border trying to surround rebel forces. In such cases the transports behaving like an airliner would be one of the obvious tactics.
Knowing that SAM's were active in the area, all airways above the area should have been closed.
Ukraine was probably keeping the airways open to use airliners as lures for the SAM's, hoping the paratroop transporters would be able to go unnoticed among them and assuming that the rebels would hold their fire if in doubt.


:checkmark: I don't think we can completely discount this theory. If the airspace was closed for civilian flights, it would have turned the entire airspace into a free-fire shooting alley.

For all the blame Russia is receiving, we must not forget the responsibility Ukraine had in this case for pure negligence. The western intelligence agencies who undoubtedly knew about the prior shootdowns too deserve criticism too. These organizations did not act in the interest of aviation safety. Situations like these must not become a precedent in future conflicts. Unfortunately, this point seems to have gone completely missing in the mud-throwing competition between Russia and the US.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 10:35 am

VSMUT wrote:
For all the blame Russia is receiving, we must not forget the responsibility Ukraine had in this case for pure negligence. The western intelligence agencies who undoubtedly knew about the prior shootdowns too deserve criticism too. These organizations did not act in the interest of aviation safety. Situations like these must not become a precedent in future conflicts. Unfortunately, this point seems to have gone completely missing in the mud-throwing competition between Russia and the US.


Ok, did you follow everything closely or are you just shooting blanks here? The accident investigation board did criticize all the above-mentioned parties and some measures has been taken to prevent such disaster. You may think it is pure negligence, but no official, and independent if I may add, confers with your conclusion, so that means squat to me.

Furthermore, what do you mean by mud-throwing competition between Russia and the US? Are you saying the conclusions so far of the Joint Investigation Team, which contains the Netherlands Public Prosecutor’s Office and the Dutch National Police work together with police and judicial authorities of Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine, are actually controlled by the USA which hasn't even a seat in this independent board?

Do you have any opinion on the findings that the missile was a Russian Military Missile and thus Putin's regime is neck deep into this?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Fri May 25, 2018 10:41 am

He's shooting blanks.
Putin's troll farms are all over subjects like these. Creating information chaos is their specialty.
Rule #1: Never trust your government. EVER.
Rule #2: In case of any doubt, see Rule #1.
Rule #3: If it's a boeing, I'm NOT going!
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