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flyingturtle
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MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 9:53 am

Breaking news...

It was first assumed (also here on a.nut) that Russia handed over some missiles and a launcher to rebels, who then used the deadly apparatus in a hillbilly way. The TELAR does have a radar, but not one that can properly distinguish targets.

Now there is evidence that the Buk missiles were part of a Russian convoy. It was not operated/kept by pro-Russian rebels: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402


David
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ltbewr
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:28 am

Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.
 
Kikko19
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:41 am

ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.


there's already plenty of sanctions against russia, next step is attacking them militarily, are you ready for it?
 
petertenthije
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:46 am

There was just a live press conference on Dutch TV by the JIT. Statements were made by Dutch and Australian investigators. A Ukrainian representative was also present, but except for responding to one question by Ukrainian (?) press he made no statement.

Long story short, the JIT’s investigation confirms the independant investigation done by Belingcat.

The missile was fired by a Buk-TELAR from the 3rd batallion of the 53rd Russian ar defence brigade based at Kursk.

There is photo and video footage of the Buk-TELAR’s trip going from Kursk to the Ukraine and back. In addition to the photo and video footage there is also other evidence, but it that will not be made publically available till the case goes to court. A total of 6 Buk-TELARs were sent to the Ukraine by Russia. In addition to the launcher of the 3rd batallion 53rd brigade there were also five launchers from the 2nd batallion 53rd brigade.

The JIT was investigating around a 100 people. However, the investigation has been narrowed down to “a few dozen” people of various nationalities.

Missile parts were retrieved from the crash site. In addition to scraps also a missile casing and a venturi (nozzle). Serial numbers listed on these narrow the missile down to two specific subversions of the Buk. In addition, the year and place of manufacture are also known.
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Bricktop
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 10:53 am

Russian bot response in 3-2-1..
 
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cougar15
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:13 am

Not he first time, … KAL007 anyone? But sad (if true) nonetheless. First of all for the victims, but also for for international politics at present! I read both, the Dutch and English versions of the findings, this is not good for current Geopolitics! But before we drift into ´Non Av ´ territory, very sad , may the poor victims RIP!
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MrHMSH
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:39 am

Not surprised at all. It's a shame that politics mean it has taken this long, but no one can really say they didn't expect some sort of dealing with Russia, be it they operated the launcher or supplied it knowingly or unknowingly to the wrong people. I don't expect any action or justice for the perpetrators, but it's better to know who did it than not.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:43 am

BUNNIK, Netherlands – An international team of investigators said Thursday that detailed analysis of video images and photos has unequivocally established that the Buk missile that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine nearly four years ago came from a Russia-based military unit, the clearest link yet published by the team to the involvement of Russian military in the deadly missile strike.

Prosecutors said they have presented their findings to Moscow and are seeking answers, but so far have not received a response. The international team running the criminal investigation appealed for help from witnesses who can testify about the involvement of the Russian military’s 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in the city of Kursk.


and

Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Joint Investigation Team, or JIT, is not yet ready to name suspects, but added: “I can say that we are now entering the … last phase of the investigation. When we will be ready, it’ is not possible to say at the moment because there is still a lot of work to do.”


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... 639864002/

So now we are entering the phase of naming individuals. The Russian state is involved, that is a fact, in the end we will see if these people are to stand trial or that they will be kept by Putin regime.
Last edited by Dutchy on Thu May 24, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:46 am

It's breaking news that the Dutch JIT has just figured out what anyone with a bit of knowledge of military practice / behavior and who took the time to look into the incident knew almost four years ago? Maybe the slow drip is their preferred PR strategy, but I think they should be embarrassed at publishing this finding in 2018.

cougar15 wrote:
Not he first time, … KAL007 anyone?
There is no comparison with KAL 007. Kal007 was violating their airspace.
Last edited by salttee on Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:47 am

salttee wrote:
It's breaking news that the Dutch JIT has just figured out what anyone with a bit of knowledge of military practice / behavior and who took the time to look into the incident knew almost four years ago? Maybe the slow drip is their preferred PR strategy, but I think they should be embarrassed at publishing this finding in 2018.


There is a difference between proofing something and know something, now it has been proven. Good thing the prosecutor's office don\t jump to conclusions. There might be a cultural difference as well, the Dutch prosecutor is deemed to seek the truth, not just to build a case, like in America.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
musman9853
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 am

Kikko19 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target. Sanctions should be placed on Russia, but no one will for political reasons and of course President Putin will deny it. At the least, some sanctions must be imposed on Russian based airlines, but no one will want that either out of greed, fear and political conflicts of interest.


there's already plenty of sanctions against russia, next step is attacking them militarily, are you ready for it?


we don't need to directly attack them. Proxy war their strategic allies. Topple assad, wean the EU of russian gas, etc.
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 am

petertenthije wrote:
There was just a live press conference on Dutch TV by the JIT...


The JIT didn't "confirm" Belincat but by their own investigation has gathered enough evidence to prove in court the Russian Federation is closely involved in the downing of MH17 and murder of the 298 souls that were on it. I am not sure all 6 Buk-TELARs that where in the original convoy ended up in rebel/Russian occupied Ukraine.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:56 am

musman9853 wrote:
Topple assad, wean the EU of russian gas, etc.
Toppling Assad would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. Because the Russians are pigs we should get ourselves bogged down in the ME supporting the Israeli expansion program?

Hell, if you want to go that way why not invade Iraq again?
 
Kikko19
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:57 am

salttee wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Topple assad, wean the EU of russian gas, etc.
Toppling Assad would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. Because the Russians are pigs we should get ourselves bogged down in the ME supporting the Israeli expansion program?

Hell, if you want to go that way why not invade Iraq again?

I guess the army of keyboard warriors seen around will scare the russians to death! abouth the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 11:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
There is a difference between proofing something and know something, now it has been proven. Good thing the prosecutor's office don\t jump to conclusions. There might be a cultural difference as well, the Dutch prosecutor is deemed to seek the truth, not just to build a case, like in America.
What's the difference Dutchy? Now that the whole thing has blown over, the Dutch stick their nose out? Nothing will come of this.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:02 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
There is a difference between proofing something and know something, now it has been proven. Good thing the prosecutor's office don\t jump to conclusions. There might be a cultural difference as well, the Dutch prosecutor is deemed to seek the truth, not just to build a case, like in America.
What's the difference Dutchy? Now that the whole thing has blown over, the Dutch stick their nose out? Nothing will come of this.


The difference is, as I understand it, the Dutch prosecutors are compelled to research in alternative theories and offer evidence to the innocence of the people whom they are prosecuting. And if they still feel they have a case, they can bring it to court or the judge to weigh the evidence. I think something will come out of this, either to have a court case where the accused is absent, or it will take place in 15 years or so, like the Libyan case.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:06 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
abouh the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?
The German people have gotten along fine for the last couple of thousand years without the northern pipe line, I don't see why they can't at least wait until Russia has another change of management.
 
aircatalonia
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:07 pm

Ok so Russia's involvement is clear now. Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The difference is, as I understand it, the Dutch prosecutors are compelled to research in alternative theories and offer evidence to the innocence of the people whom they are prosecuting. And if they still feel they have a case, they can bring it to court or the judge to weigh the evidence. I think something will come out of this, either to have a court case where the accused is absent, or it will take place in 15 years or so, like the Libyan case.
Do you realize that you have just said absolutely nothing?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:11 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The difference is, as I understand it, the Dutch prosecutors are compelled to research in alternative theories and offer evidence to the innocence of the people whom they are prosecuting. And if they still feel they have a case, they can bring it to court or the judge to weigh the evidence. I think something will come out of this, either to have a court case where the accused is absent, or it will take place in 15 years or so, like the Libyan case.
Do you realize that you have just said absolutely nothing?


Do with it what you want with it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:11 pm

aircatalonia wrote:
Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
No I do not. MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:12 pm

No surprise here. Confirms what many suspected.
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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:25 pm

aircatalonia wrote:
Ok so Russia's involvement is clear now. Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?


Other airlines have also used the same route over eastern Ukraine.

And you know that insurers really feel pissed when you operate an airliner in any place that has not been declared safe.


David
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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:29 pm

salttee wrote:
MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.


They *intentionally* shot down an aircraft, which they thought to be an Ukrainian plane.

But they *accidentally* hit MH17. There are zero benefits when you hit a civilian airliner. You lose 298 gazillion sympathy points abroad.

Intention and accident do not mutually exclude each other. But it's still criminal negligence when you don't make sure about your target, especially when you operate a missile in an area where you're liable to hit civilians.


David
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Kikko19
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:43 pm

salttee wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
abouh the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?
The German people have gotten along fine for the last couple of thousand years without the northern pipe line, I don't see why they can't at least wait until Russia has another change of management.
Sure, last 2000 years using their own gas... well i remember exactly somebody needing the "lebensraum". but maybe i'm just reading other books
by the way i think Europe would need russia more than russia need Europe at least now with china producing everything they need. fromo a a.net point of view a closure of the russian skies would bring more than an headache to many Airlines's CEO...
 
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vhtje
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:53 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target.


What motive does/did Russia have for this horrific act? Was it a deliberate act or did they mistake the MH 777 for something else, i.e. a military transporter? To me, it seems hard to believe a professional military outfit does not have the wherewithal to tell a civilian aircraft from a military one (as opposed to some rouge rebels who managed to get hold of some professional-grade military weapons and pointed it at random grey aircraft in the sky).

This alone suggests the action was deliberate. Which gets me back to my first question: why would Russia do this?
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Loew
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:58 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Breaking news...

It was first assumed (also here on a.nut) that Russia handed over some missiles and a launcher to rebels, who then used the deadly apparatus in a hillbilly way. The TELAR does have a radar, but not one that can properly distinguish targets.

Now there is evidence that the Buk missiles were part of a Russian convoy. It was not operated/kept by pro-Russian rebels: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402


David


This is hardly a surprise, since BUK or any SAM system for that matter, is rather complicated to operate. Therefore it is not possible to just slam few guys inside, you found on the street yesterday, and tell them to shoot down enemy planes. Years of training are needed. So, what you need are actual soldiers, trained on the system to operate it, therefore in this case, russian soldiers. From a political perspective these news put public pressure onto some EU member states governments which are openly talking about lifting sanctions against Russia, that are currently in place.
 
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Loew
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 12:59 pm

Loew wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Breaking news...

It was first assumed (also here on a.nut) that Russia handed over some missiles and a launcher to rebels, who then used the deadly apparatus in a hillbilly way. The TELAR does have a radar, but not one that can properly distinguish targets.

Now there is evidence that the Buk missiles were part of a Russian convoy. It was not operated/kept by pro-Russian rebels: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402


David


This is hardly a surprise, since BUK or any SAM system for that matter, is rather complicated to operate. Therefore it is not possible to just slam few guys inside, you found on the street yesterday, and tell them to shoot down enemy planes. Years of training are needed. So, what you need are actual soldiers, trained on the system to operate it, therefore in this case russian soldiers. From a political perspective these news put public pressure onto some EU member states governments which are openly talking about lifting sanctions against Russia, that are currently in place.
 
osupoke07
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:01 pm

aircatalonia wrote:
Ok so Russia's involvement is clear now. Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?


No. IIRC, at the time, there were no known weapons operating in that war that could go that high. Airspace was closed at 32,000 feet and below, and MH-17 was flying at 33,000.
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NZ321
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:02 pm

I would say that MH aircraft belly and underside was painted a fairly dark shade of grey at that time. Maybe somebody who made the call did not have sufficient training and it was a mistaken identification but either way they have to take responsibility and I am not condoning it for a minute. Will surely be interesting to see how this unfolds.
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salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:24 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.
They *intentionally* shot down an aircraft, which they thought to be an Ukrainian plane.But they *accidentally* hit MH17.
I don't know at what level the decision was taken, but somebody among the Russians decided to take down an airliner. MH-17 was at 33,000 feet, that was not something that would have gone unnoticed by the TELAR operator. And if you think the TELAR operator was anything but a Russian soldier from the 53rd air defense Brigade, I have a bridge to sell you.

Your claim that "they thought (MH-17) to be an Ukrainian plane" is something that originates in your own head. There is nothing to support it, except your denial of the facts as they are known.




Now, if the Russians fessed up and claimed that one of their people went overboard in some fashion.................
Last edited by salttee on Thu May 24, 2018 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:26 pm

A prosecutor is just a lawyer representing a state. It doesn't mean anything that a lawyer pretends to have proof until the proof is laid out in a court of law that has jurisdiction and is neutral, where the defendants present their own proof and defense, and a ruling can be made.

There's no such thing as a neutral lawyer.

It's almost impossible to prove an involvement in this case. Russia was coming into Ukraine so it could be that a third party or even Ukraine has set up Russia to create a political scandal.

And even if at the end of the day, they can prove that it was a Russian army finger that pulled the trigger, they still need to prove intent to kill innocent civilians rather than this being a collateral accident of a civil war.
They would also need to prove that the order came from higher hierarchy, at least a general, for the Russian government to be held accountable.
After all it could be a trigger happy soldier acting without orders, who would also have to explain himself in a military court in Russia.
Last edited by Waterbomber on Thu May 24, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:29 pm

vhtje wrote:
why would Russia do this?
One answer to that is that somebody wanted the border war with Ukraine to heat up to a full scale war which would bring Ukraine back under Russian control and show those whimps in the west who is who.

The Americans did something similar in the Gulf of Tonkin.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:33 pm

NZ321 wrote:
I would say that MH aircraft belly and underside was painted a fairly dark shade of grey at that time. Maybe somebody who made the call did not have sufficient training and it was a mistaken identification but either way they have to take responsibility and I am not condoning it for a minute. Will surely be interesting to see how this unfolds.
How would a guy in a radar van know what color a plane 20 miles away and eight miles high was?
 
Waterbomber
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:37 pm

salttee wrote:
vhtje wrote:
why would Russia do this?
One answer to that is that somebody wanted the border war with Ukraine to heat up to a full scale war which would bring Ukraine back under Russian control and show those whimps in the west who is who.

The Americans did something similar in the Gulf of Tonkin.


Well then why has it had the opposite effect?
 
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sturmovik
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:40 pm

For those asking how/why Russia would do it, may I suggest reading up on IR 655? Far more appropriate comparison than KAL007 imo.
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salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:40 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Well then why has it had the opposite effect?
Did it? I don't know that it had any effect on the Russian border war. Another answer would be that somebody miscalculated.
 
fpetrutiu
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:47 pm

NZ321 wrote:
I would say that MH aircraft belly and underside was painted a fairly dark shade of grey at that time. Maybe somebody who made the call did not have sufficient training and it was a mistaken identification but either way they have to take responsibility and I am not condoning it for a minute. Will surely be interesting to see how this unfolds.


Knowing what I know about SAM systems, there was no visual identification on this. This was a blip on primary radar that the missile was following until it got in range for thermal and laser sensors to take over for final approach to target. The TELAR system does not have secondary radar, it does not look for transponder pings either. Now, given the altitude of the MH17, they should have known that it could very well be a commercial aircraft or at least that there was a very good chance that it was. It was on a published route, in an airspace above the closed one that was used by commercial aviation. That should have deemed it necessary for further authentication efforts on the 121.5 GUARD frequency that is internationally recognized or other means of identification.
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peterinlisbon
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:54 pm

This has to be a case of criminal negligence by whoever fired the missile and surely it would be in Russia's interests to find that person rather than saying "it wasn't us", which nobody believes. I'm sure Russia knows who did it perfectly well because they know what equipment was there at the time and which launcher had one less missile. Plus, it must have been authorised by higher chain of command. Surely they didn't just tell them to fire a missile at whatever aircraft happened to be in the sky at the time. Didn't they notice other planes flying aong the exact same path in the same direction every ten minutes (Singapore Airlines, Air India, etc) and haven't they ever heard of flightradar24? Russian military radar should also be able to read the transponder signal and know the aircraft type and flight number.
 
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:57 pm

sturmovik wrote:
For those asking how/why Russia would do it, may I suggest reading up on IR 655? Far more appropriate comparison than KAL007 imo.


Agreed as far as the incident. But when you look at the aftermath reactions of the US and Russia, it becomes pretty clear that Russia is headed by a bunch of crooks.
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RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 1:58 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
And even if at the end of the day, they can prove that it was a Russian army finger that pulled the trigger, they still need to prove intent to kill innocent civilians rather than this being a collateral accident of a civil war.
They would also need to prove that the order came from higher hierarchy, at least a general, for the Russian government to be held accountable.
After all it could be a trigger happy soldier acting without orders, who would also have to explain himself in a military court in Russia.


In Dutch criminal law there is also such a thing as recklessness so even if there was no intention to kill innocent civilians, those responsible can still be convicted for the 298 fault murder they committed. At the moment it is the JIT that has the evidence and is building the case. The Russian state is doing nothing but spreading lies while they have a lot of explaining to do. Besides even if the intent was to shoot down a Ukrainian plane, that would still be a crime so there can be absolutely no excuse.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:00 pm

salttee wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Well then why has it had the opposite effect?
Did it? I don't know that it had any effect on the Russian border war. Another answer would be that somebody miscalculated.


The downing of the MH17 was a tipping point in the civil war, in favor of Western forces. In days prior to that crash, several Ukrainian military aircraft had been downed by rebel SAM's.
So the sky above Donetsk should have been a no-fly zone by any measure.
One can also make the claim that Ukraine intentionally sent commercial aircraft over there hoping that it would prevent the use of SAM against their parachuting forces, if indeed it was downed by the rebels.
Russia lost out after the crash.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:06 pm

RJWNL wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
And even if at the end of the day, they can prove that it was a Russian army finger that pulled the trigger, they still need to prove intent to kill innocent civilians rather than this being a collateral accident of a civil war.
They would also need to prove that the order came from higher hierarchy, at least a general, for the Russian government to be held accountable.
After all it could be a trigger happy soldier acting without orders, who would also have to explain himself in a military court in Russia.


In Dutch criminal law there is also such a thing as recklessness so even if there was no intention to kill innocent civilians, those responsible can still be convicted for the 298 fault murder they committed. At the moment it is the JIT that has the evidence and is building the case. The Russian state is doing nothing but spreading lies while they have a lot of explaining to do. Besides even if the intent was to shoot down a Ukrainian plane, that would still be a crime so there can be absolutely no excuse.


Dutch criminal law has no jurisdiction for a death on a Malaysia registered aircraft downed over Ukrainian territory.
Recklessness or in legal terms, gross negligence, also has to be proven, easier said than done.

MH17 should be used as an opportunity to bring people and nations together, not divide even more resulting in even more potential loss of life. I'm an idealist, obviously.
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:12 pm

Ukraine didn't "send" any commercial aircraft anywhere. They continued to allow overflights, why wouldn't they? They got paid for overflight rights. The border war was not a secret, Ukraine had no prior knowledge that the Russians would take down an airliner.
 
salttee
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:16 pm

fpetrutiu wrote:
they should have known that it could very well be a commercial aircraft or at least that there was a very good chance that it was. It was on a published route, in an airspace above the closed one that was used by commercial aviation. That should have deemed it necessary for further authentication efforts on the 121.5 GUARD frequency that is internationally recognized or other means of identification.
It bears mentioning that the TELAR was parked almost directly under the intersections of three airway routes.
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:28 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Dutch criminal law has no jurisdiction for a death on a Malaysia registered aircraft downed over Ukrainian territory.
Recklessness or in legal terms, gross negligence, also has to be proven, easier said than done.

MH17 should be used as an opportunity to bring people and nations together, not divide even more resulting in even more potential loss of life. I'm an idealist, obviously.


I am sorry to disappoint you but the case will be tried in a Dutch court of law, Ukraine having delegated their jurisdiction to the JIT and Dutch court. Hopefully all aspects of Dutch criminal law will be at the disposal of the court but probably they will have to take other jurisdictions and international law into account. It will indeed be complicated to convict for the highest form of murder but if it comes to trying the one who pushed the button, gave the orders etc. they certainly won't get away with it. Please spare us the bullshit of bringing people and nations together because the Russian government never had any such intentions.
 
uta999
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:30 pm

It's about time the West treated Russia as a rogue state and cut it off completely. This is going to keep happening, until the people of Russia realise their leader is taking them down a very dangerous path. Europe should not be buying energy from Russia, and it might be time to ban commercial aviation too. North Korea and Russia are basically one and the same, a threat. We are repeating history from 1935.
Your computer just got better
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:42 pm

I sincerely hope that the world will demand some serious accountability if this turns out to be true!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 2:58 pm

salttee wrote:
I don't know at what level the decision was taken, but somebody among the Russians decided to take down an airliner.


And your reasoning is...?

salttee wrote:
MH-17 was at 33,000 feet, that was not something that would have gone unnoticed by the TELAR operator.


The TELAR has only rudimentary means of identifying an airplane. Such a thing makes sense, though, when you *know* that any aircraft in range of your missile is an enemy one.

salttee wrote:
Your claim that "they thought (MH-17) to be an Ukrainian plane" is something that originates in your own head. There is nothing to support it, except your denial of the facts as they are known.


I'm only giving the Russians the benefit of the doubt, but that they didn't prevent shooting down an airliner is still damning enough.

Here, negligence is easier to prove than intent. Also, let's not forget that tweets that had been removed. First, they were full of joy about having downed an aircraft... but as soon as images of the wreckage turned up, they were all removing their web postings.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
winstonlegthigh
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:04 pm

What a stunning development. Nostradamus himself wouldn't have seen this coming.

They should take a closer look at the Polish government plane that went down. I'm sure there will be no surprises there, either.
Never has gravity been so uplifting.
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