Blerg wrote:

Because this would be the first time the US and its allies fabricate situations to justify a military attack?

Exactly

Have we already forgotten about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? Unfortunately for Trump, Syria is no Grenada.

Nah, we haven't forgotten. You however have forgotten that no WMD where found in Iraq.

Your argument would only hold water if they had planted WMDs in Iraq, which they hadn't.

So this is very much not the modus operandi of even the worst lying scumbacks among western politicians, so, especially with france being in in it, you can take this to the bank.

Best regards
Thomas

Bricktop wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

So how did those people die? Or maybe the scenes were all shot on a Hollywood sound stage. Like the moon landing, right?

Because this would be the first time the US and its allies fabricate situations to justify a military attack? Have we already forgotten about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? Unfortunately for Trump, Syria is no Grenada.

So your answer is that they aren't dead, that this is just a fabrication. Despicable.

In stead of attacking me, how about you share some legitimate proof that there was an actual attack? Especially since Gouda was all but liberated by Assad forces.

zkojq wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Russia and Syria have no credibility whatsoever. Who is going to prove the western coalition lied in this case ? And to what end ? Iraq, the motives were obvious.

All Cretans are liars. I am Cretan.

You base your judgement ( Syria, Russia have no credibility )
on information "outlets" that have a long history of fabricating same.

Blerg wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Because this would be the first time the US and its allies fabricate situations to justify a military attack? Have we already forgotten about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? Unfortunately for Trump, Syria is no Grenada.

So your answer is that they aren't dead, that this is just a fabrication. Despicable.

In stead of attacking me, how about you share some legitimate proof that there was an actual attack? Especially since Gouda was all but liberated by Assad forces.

Instead of deflecting, how about you present a hypothesis as to how those people died that doesn't involve the use of chemical weapons? Or are you going to make your stand on the "Hollywood sound stage" defense?

Bricktop wrote:

Instead of deflecting, how about you present a hypothesis as to how those people died that doesn't involve the use of chemical weapons? Or are you going to make your stand on the "Hollywood sound stage" defense?

The UK or the US bombed it themselves with chemical weapons they don't have and without leaving any trace or blip on the radar.

Checking other hypothesis is waaaaaay to scientific. Doing it applying correct methods, bayes for example, even more so.

Best regards
Thomas

Bricktop wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

So your answer is that they aren't dead, that this is just a fabrication. Despicable.

In stead of attacking me, how about you share some legitimate proof that there was an actual attack? Especially since Gouda was all but liberated by Assad forces.

Instead of deflecting, how about you present a hypothesis as to how those people died that doesn't involve the use of chemical weapons? Or are you going to make your stand on the "Hollywood sound stage" defense?

So you are accusing me of deflecting while you are doing the same? Actually, a scientific team was supposed to arrive today to investigate the whole matter. The US, France and the UK didn't wait for an official investigation to be over so in stead they started launching missiles. On top of that, the US vetoed a Russian SC resolution that actually called for an independent investigation.

I don't have an answer to your question which is why I backed Russia and their call for an independent investigation.

By the way, didn't the US say they got these reports from an NGO that actually received $6 million in funding from USAid?

SeJoWa wrote:

leghorn wrote:

No proof available yet to German media that there was a chemical attack.
The German News carried a report which was quite unusual ...
...
We don't know so best we can do is just hope that only militants were affected by the strike and not civilians.

What "German News"?

Angela Merkel has said there's "very clear evidence" for the use of chemical weapons in Syria, and that the allied strikes were "necessary and appropriate".
Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausl ... 35126.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausl ... 41678.html

Of course, the Russian foreign minister has accused the UK of staging both the Skripals' poisening and the latest atrocity in Syria.
Thank god someone with a direct link to little green men can tell us what's up.

Tageschau this week.
Any comments from German Politicians since the attack happened will not condemn the actions of other Western Powers.

Andy33 wrote:

the widely held view in Europe is exactly what I said.

If so, that's because that's what they've been told by their media and possibly "aviation experts".

Andy33 wrote:

Now the BUK, as has been discussed here many times, had its origins in Soviet Union defence systems, and when the Soviet Union split into its constituent republics, both Ukraine and Russia ended up with BUKs. There's been a long debate about whether the missile battery was brought across the border by Russian forces, or was captured from Ukrainian government forces by what you call irregular civilians.

There's no debate about that, unless one is dealing with a Russian propagandist. There are photos of the BUK which have been widely published in the public domain which show the transporter coming and going from and to the Russian side.

You speak in strong tones: "I don't think anyone has ever alleged......." "There's been a long debate........" yet you spin the actual facts. What part of Europe are you from? I'm west coast American BTW.


And you continue to spout the Russian message (it's all so confusing, how can anyone know?).

Andy33 wrote:

I doubt if we'll ever know if they were renegade Ukrainians or Russians pretending to be renegade Ukrainians, since both groups were Russian speakers. What is crucial is who made the mis-identification of the scheduled passenger plane (which had clearance from Russian ATC and Ukrainian ATC to be where it was) with a military aircraft, and told the BUK operators to fire at it.

Mis-identification? Are you sure about that? Maybe they just wanted the next one to come along.

Bricktop wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

So how did those people die? Or maybe the scenes were all shot on a Hollywood sound stage. Like the moon landing, right?

Because this would be the first time the US and its allies fabricate situations to justify a military attack? Have we already forgotten about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? Unfortunately for Trump, Syria is no Grenada.

So your answer is that they aren't dead, that this is just a fabrication. Despicable.

Agreed. Anyone who has seen the pictures of those dead and dying children and then denies the event took place are despicable.

Blerg wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Blerg wrote:

In stead of attacking me, how about you share some legitimate proof that there was an actual attack? Especially since Gouda was all but liberated by Assad forces.

Instead of deflecting, how about you present a hypothesis as to how those people died that doesn't involve the use of chemical weapons? Or are you going to make your stand on the "Hollywood sound stage" defense?

So you are accusing me of deflecting while you are doing the same? Actually, a scientific team was supposed to arrive today to investigate the whole matter. The US, France and the UK didn't wait for an official investigation to be over so in stead they started launching missiles. On top of that, the US vetoed a Russian SC resolution that actually called for an independent investigation.

I don't have an answer to your question which is why I backed Russia and their call for an independent investigation.

By the way, didn't the US say they got these reports from an NGO that actually received $6 million in funding from USAid?

The Russian "Independent Investigation" would have been a disinformation campaign from Assad. Anyone who trusts a single word coming out of Putin or Assad is a blind fool.

I SERIOUSLY doubt France/U.K. would participate in and attack without proof. They have nothing to gain or lose from it. Kudos on them for stepping up while other large countries (germany) cower in the corner.

OK, there are still people claiming the chemical weapons attack didn't happen. There is enough proof to show that the attack happened. Do these people also believe the Holocaust was also a hoax? Please.

Chemical weapons are outlawed. The end. No debating this. After today's vote, it is also clear that the U.N. supports the allied attack on Syria. The reason Russia did not interfere with the United States yesterday is because they know that Assad gassed his own people. They have not provided any proof the the contrary. Russia isn't stupid. They know that there is too much proof that Assad did the crime.

Yeesh... I have seen so many good sites destroyed by politics rearing its ugly head, so I admit to some hesitation to joining this conversation, but anyone wants to cling to the ludicrous notion that the butcher who runs Syria with a bloody cleaver didn't, for the second time in two years, brutalize his own citizens in a deadly chemical attack, then you are either woefully ignorant, laughably stupid, or impotently duplicitous, and probably all three. This isn't Iraq in 2003. It isn't Grenada from 20 years earlier. It's Syria today and the facts are clear. What to do about it is a function of your own morals (or lack thereof), but please, spare yourself the embarrassment of suggesting it didn't happen. Now, back to arguing about A vs B and why Yuma can't get a direct flight to London... I hope.

I have never been able to work out why Assad went so bad.

Until his father died, he was an opthalmologist. An eye doctor, for the love of God, not some Uday Hussein character going round raping women and smoking Cuban cigars.

He got put into power as the natural successor to his strongman father but up until then he was in the health industry. There were high hopes for him as a modernising, moderate figure. Then all this happened and he went feral.

Leaders tend to do that when they are threatened by overthrow. He really had no other choice if he didn't want his fathers legacy turned into dust as soon as the torch was passed to him.

Take an ordinary housecat, put him in a corner and start poking him with a stick: watch and see what happens.

DDR wrote:

OK, there are still people claiming the chemical weapons attack didn't happen. There is enough proof to show that the attack happened. Do these people also believe the Holocaust was also a hoax? Please.

Chemical weapons are outlawed. The end. No debating this. After today's vote, it is also clear that the U.N. supports the allied attack on Syria. The reason Russia did not interfere with the United States yesterday is because they know that Assad gassed his own people. They have not provided any proof the the contrary. Russia isn't stupid. They know that there is too much proof that Assad did the crime.

Then where's this proof? OPCW's experts just arrived to Syria for sampling and investigation today - how can there even be a presentable proof? We all still remember Colin Powell's "proof" 15 years ago; the cost to the USA has been tremendous and continues to mount.

Overall, I do not understand this strikes. No demonstrable grounds, no real goals. Not even a remote chance to achieve anything, even if all 1000 missiles present in the region were fired all at once. This is just degradation. Totally groundless and totally aimless airstrikes. US foreign policy just keeps hitting new bottoms...

DDR wrote:

Sorry, but the video available by multiple countries proves the attacks happened. And thanks for assuming that I am American. I wasn't born there, but I am proud that you think I was. Also, talking to you is like talking to a wall. "it did not happen, it did not happen." Give me a beak. I think you are just trolling to get a rise out of everyone. No one can actually be that naive.

Well - this "video based politics" is nothing but asking for disaster. There are all sorts of people and groups making those counting to trigger reaction like this, with all sorts of intents. They know how to shoot a video, how to lobby it in Western media and Washington DC. So someone simply took advantage of these workings of Western system, and then highest U.S. officials months later have to admit "there was no real proof".

anrec80 wrote:

Overall, I do not understand this strikes. No demonstrable grounds, no real goals. Not even a remote chance to achieve anything, even if all 1000 missiles present in the region were fired all at once. This is just degradation. Totally groundless and totally aimless airstrikes. US foreign policy just keeps hitting new bottoms...

From what I understand, the strikes were to take out Assad’s chemical weapons. I agree with that. This is different than Iraq, which was definitely a mistake.

DDR wrote:

From what I understand, the strikes were to take out Assad’s chemical weapons. I agree with that. This is different than Iraq, which was definitely a mistake.

This is no different from Iraq - in both cases strikes were justified by "chemical weapons". In Iraq, of course, nothing was ever found. The reason Iraq is found to be a mistake is not because it's wrong to stick into and bomb other countries, but due to humongous price USA paid and continues to pay for that "adventure". Before Iraq though - Colin Powell at least bothered with a tube. As for these chemical weapons - now Western allies are just putting on a comedy show. First they launched air strikes, and now - guess what? They demand investigation. This is certainly something new.

Varsity1 wrote:

The Russian "Independent Investigation" would have been a disinformation campaign from Assad. Anyone who trusts a single word coming out of Putin or Assad is a blind fool.

I SERIOUSLY doubt France/U.K. would participate in and attack without proof. They have nothing to gain or lose from it. Kudos on them for stepping up while other large countries (germany) cower in the corner.

Well - they just did. UK and France are in NATO, and their political elite is extremely integrated into NATO/EU. Neither Macron nor May make any independent decisions, nor they are supposed to. Macron is especially good in expressing solidarity - be it with Trump, Putin or anyone else. This is how he thinks and sees the world.

Channex757 wrote:

I have never been able to work out why Assad went so bad.

Until his father died, he was an opthalmologist. An eye doctor, for the love of God, not some Uday Hussein character going round raping women and smoking Cuban cigars.

He got put into power as the natural successor to his strongman father but up until then he was in the health industry. There were high hopes for him as a modernising, moderate figure. Then all this happened and he went feral.

Or did he? Your sources to the story are western msm.

anrec80 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

The Russian "Independent Investigation" would have been a disinformation campaign from Assad. Anyone who trusts a single word coming out of Putin or Assad is a blind fool.

I SERIOUSLY doubt France/U.K. would participate in and attack without proof. They have nothing to gain or lose from it. Kudos on them for stepping up while other large countries (germany) cower in the corner.

Well - they just did. UK and France are in NATO, and their political elite is extremely integrated into NATO/EU. Neither Macron nor May make any independent decisions, nor they are supposed to. Macron is especially good in expressing solidarity - be it with Trump, Putin or anyone else. This is how he thinks and sees the world.

You mean that France will follow whatever happens in Washington? Just like with Iraq in 2003? No, countries are independent and can make their independent decisions as has shown in the past. I know you like to frame it like this because you want to divide the EU and America in the public opinion, but again facts don't subscribe your point of view.

anrec80 wrote:

First they launched air strikes, and now - guess what? They demand investigation. This is certainly something new.

That is a lie, firstly there was the UNSC which was vetoed down by Putin's regime, then the air strikes.

salttee wrote:

Take an ordinary housecat, put him in a corner and start poking him with a stick: watch and see what happens.

... and is completely independent of "good cat" or "bad cat".

Now turn around and look at who wields the poker here.

The son was seen as easy prey by the "rearrange the middle east" crowd.
( didn't work out the way it was supposed to as the Assad family
all the time got majority support in the population.
"Not the best but the best one could hope for under the circumstances" )

Interesting that Syria turned from a complimentary service provider for the US ( torture and stuff )
to "the child of Satan".

Keep the thread on topic or it will be locked. Just as a reminder, thread is to discuss the air strike that occurred a few days ago.

✈️ atcsundevil

atcsundevil wrote:

Keep the thread on topic or it will be locked. Just as a reminder, thread is to discuss the air strike that occurred a few days ago.

✈️ atcsundevil

Why is this even in Civil Aviation? It has nothing to do with it, should be in Military. Aside from conjecture that DAM was hit, it's all speculation and insulting people.

EvanWSFO wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

Keep the thread on topic or it will be locked. Just as a reminder, thread is to discuss the air strike that occurred a few days ago.

✈️ atcsundevil

Why is this even in Civil Aviation? It has nothing to do with it, should be in Military. Aside from conjecture that DAM was hit, it's all speculation and insulting people.

This thread is in the Non Aviation Forum, which is where the topic should exist.

atcsundevil wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

Keep the thread on topic or it will be locked. Just as a reminder, thread is to discuss the air strike that occurred a few days ago.

✈️ atcsundevil

Why is this even in Civil Aviation? It has nothing to do with it, should be in Military. Aside from conjecture that DAM was hit, it's all speculation and insulting people.

This thread is in the Non Aviation Forum, which is where the topic should exist.

Thanks, not sure how I wound up in non-Aviation since I never go there.

Dutchy wrote:

You mean that France will follow whatever happens in Washington? Just like with Iraq in 2003? No, countries are independent and can make their independent decisions as has shown in the past. I know you like to frame it like this because you want to divide the EU and America in the public opinion, but again facts don't subscribe your point of view.

Yes, this exactly what I am saying. And it applies not only to France, but to most EU countries (yours included). In 2003 things were different, now Macron wouldn’t have said no. He hasn’t been chosen and promoted to his position to be too independent.

anrec80 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

You mean that France will follow whatever happens in Washington? Just like with Iraq in 2003? No, countries are independent and can make their independent decisions as has shown in the past. I know you like to frame it like this because you want to divide the EU and America in the public opinion, but again facts don't subscribe your point of view.

Yes, this exactly what I am saying. And it applies not only to France, but to most EU countries (yours included). In 2003 things were different, now Macron wouldn’t have said no. He hasn’t been chosen and promoted to his position to be too independent.

I see, do you deliberately say dishonest things or do you not know how it works?

If it is the first case, what is your agenda? The second, you have been told that it isn't the case and given examples of it. Let me give another: The Netherlands didn't full-heartedly support the recent attacks.

Mazza military airport was badly hit, DAM was not touch. Inside information from Damascus friends.

Dutchy wrote:

anrec80 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

You mean that France will follow whatever happens in Washington? Just like with Iraq in 2003? No, countries are independent and can make their independent decisions as has shown in the past. I know you like to frame it like this because you want to divide the EU and America in the public opinion, but again facts don't subscribe your point of view.

Yes, this exactly what I am saying. And it applies not only to France, but to most EU countries (yours included). In 2003 things were different, now Macron wouldn’t have said no. He hasn’t been chosen and promoted to his position to be too independent.

I see, do you deliberately say dishonest things or do you not know how it works?

If it is the first case, what is your agenda? The second, you have been told that it isn't the case and given examples of it. Let me give another: The Netherlands didn't full-heartedly support the recent attacks.

The former. Clearly on the pad for the Russians. "He" can't give any explanations for what happened , except that it didn't happen. The scurrilous Big Lie.

anrec80 wrote:

Well - they just did. UK and France are in NATO, and their political elite is extremely integrated into NATO/EU. Neither Macron nor May make any independent decisions, nor they are supposed to. Macron is especially good in expressing solidarity - be it with Trump, Putin or anyone else. This is how he thinks and sees the world.

The French political elite is not integrated into NATO (what does that even mean ?), for that matter the US president is a big critic of NATO last time I checked.

Every party other than Macron's has a good reason to be against these strikes.

France does have independent proof of the attack, like I've already said. People on the ground.

Macron had drawn a red line and had to act. Putin and Trump now respect him even more.

salttee wrote:

Leaders tend to do that when they are threatened by overthrow. He really had no other choice if he didn't want his fathers legacy turned into dust as soon as the torch was passed to him.

Now his country including millenia old artifacts, and his people, are turned to dust, great outcome ! Let's support that guy !

You read things into those two sentences that weren't there.

SOBHI51 wrote:

Mazza military airport was badly hit, DAM was not touch. Inside information from Damascus friends.

Still no pictures!

Syria/Russia are pathological liars on the world stage.