Last night the Commonwealth Games opened with a dazzling spectacle on the Gold Coast.

Meanwhile outside the stadium a group of indigenous Australians protested the invasion of the continent.

The ceremony was opened by Prince Charles, who is briefly visiting the country he will one day inherit.

Farcical.

Go sports ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/04/prince-charles-opens-commonwealth-games-protesters-arrested-gold-coast-2018

What are the indigenous protesters' demands? Expectations?

Airstud wrote:

What are the indigenous protesters' demands? Expectations?

Treaty, primarily. A return of land owned by the crown to its traditional owners.
The continent was invaded in the name of a powerful aristocratic family who remain in power. I sympathise with the protesters completely.

RetroRoo wrote:

Airstud wrote:

What are the indigenous protesters' demands? Expectations?

Treaty, primarily. A return of land owned by the crown to its traditional owners.
The continent was invaded in the name of a powerful aristocratic family who remain in power. I sympathise with the protesters completely.

They just need to get with the program and grow up, Australia was colonised it happened it’s not going back, ditto for
NZ, both countries without colonisation would be complete shitholes.

Kiwirob wrote:

RetroRoo wrote:

Airstud wrote:

What are the indigenous protesters' demands? Expectations?

Treaty, primarily. A return of land owned by the crown to its traditional owners.
The continent was invaded in the name of a powerful aristocratic family who remain in power. I sympathise with the protesters completely.

They just need to get with the program and grow up, Australia was colonised it happened it’s not going back, ditto for
NZ, both countries without colonisation would be complete shitholes.

I'd say living harmoniously with the land for 40,000 years in Australia's case and 700 years in New Zealand's case doesn't really qualify either country for 'shithole' status.

I'd also make the point that the generation to generation impact of colonisation is something that is still being felt today. It's not some distant historical footnote, people having been ripped apart from family, culture, language, and land continues to be devastating. Your argument doesn't even acknowledge that if colonisation was inevitable that it could have been handled better.

It's hard to 'get over' something that is still in the here and now.

"Rule Britannia..."

We live in a different age now, if we knew then what we know now colonisation would have been a different process. We have to face the reality that people move, cultures die, and fussing over what happened is a massive waste of time and energy. If you’ve ever been to the Cook Islands, Samoa or Tonga it’s pretty to see what an uncolonised NZ would have been like today.

Rob using 'shithole' means he's viewing the world through his upper-middle class white European view again.

Indigenous people weren't shitting in the streets - London circa 19th century

Kiwirob wrote:

the Cook Islands, Samoa or Tonga it’s pretty to see what an uncolonised NZ would have been like today.

Kiwirob you cannot use isolated, very small islands with limited resources trying to have a "western" standard of living as a comparison for large, resource laden areas, that have autonomy and effective local governance.

However I also do think that these "indigenous groups" are looking for something that both cannot be truly done and that they really have little "right" too. While I feel for the plight of people that have their land taken etc. and acknowledge it is wrong and should not have been done the way it happened, indigenous are not saints either and there were many wars a fought between tribes and their nations that decimated others. Indigenous people were as resource focused as their more modern and better armed counter parts and took slaves and land and wives and killed leaders etc. just as was done to them.

It is a truth of the human condition we fight for our families and people and put our needs above others and will take from "others" if it is better for "us".

Again not saying that what happened around the world during the colonial era wasn't terrible and harmed many many people. I do wish (wishes are not reality) it happened differently. But that is not the case and doesn't change that "living is harmony with the land" is not a complete truth.

Tugg

coolian2 wrote:

Rob using 'shithole' means he's viewing the world through his upper-middle class white European view again.

Indigenous people weren't shitting in the streets - London circa 19th century

You bet I am, it’s the middle class lifestyle which people from shitholes all over the world aspire to, or do you really think those economic migrants want to bring there lifestyles with them?

Maori aren’t indigenous to NZ, they’re migrants just like the rest of us in NZ.

coolian2 wrote:

Rob using 'shithole' means he's viewing the world through his upper-middle class white European view again.

Indigenous people weren't shitting in the streets - London circa 19th century

Yeah, also known as safe, comfortable, healthy and enlightened society.

Of course they weren't. They didn't have streets. They walked barefoot in the dirt. They also didn't have schools or effective doctors,

I don't see many people choosing to live that lifestyle by choice anymore. That proves that modern society is more desirable.

Kiwirob wrote:

You bet I am, it’s the middle class lifestyle which people from shitholes all over the world aspire to, or do you really think those economic migrants want to bring there lifestyles with them?

I'd like to make the point that the violence of colonial European invasion isn't a pre-requisite for an extremely high standard of living. The end doesn't justify the means, in the "new" world the end could have been achieved myriad other ways without invasion and horrific acts of violence.

I get the equivalency argument, and yes Europe hundreds of years ago had a huge technological advantage, but it wasn't a moral advantage. Like I said, the very real legacy of colonialism lives with us today, passed through generations. Ripped away from family, culture, and language - it takes more than just pulling yourself up by your bootstraps sometimes to overcome that kind of inter-generational damage.

Tugger wrote:

But that is not the case and doesn't change that "living is harmony with the land" is not a complete truth.
Tugg

Can you specify exactly which group you're talking about here? This is pretty extreme stuff.

Would it be off topic if we talk about the sports and competition happening?

Just a question...

Maybe two topics, Commonwealth Games 2018 political fights, and Commonwealth Games 2018 competition discussion.

RetroRoo wrote:

Airstud wrote:

What are the indigenous protesters' demands? Expectations?

Treaty, primarily. A return of land owned by the crown to its traditional owners.
The continent was invaded in the name of a powerful aristocratic family who remain in power. I sympathise with the protesters completely.

And then what?

They have been given land. They have been given free housing and trashed that. They have been given free vehicles that they don't want. They literally leave them on the side of the road once they run out fuel.

Aboriginal problems won't be solved by land title, their issues are much deeper than that.

Could we please stick to the topic, that being the Commonwealth Games, if you wish to discuss the plight of aboriginals start a new thread

Should transgender Laurel Hubbard be allowed to compete in the woman’s 90kg weightlifting event? It’s a strength event, Hubbard is significantly stronger than any other female in the competition. Hubbard transitioned in his 30’s this is not a child who transitioned before puberty. It’s simply not fair to all the females in the competition to have to compete for silver rather than a shot at gold. This is not about being PC, it’s about a level playing field and being fair to all competitors.

Freakysh wrote:

Aboriginal problems won't be solved by land title, their issues are much deeper than that.

That's convenient for the crown, isn't it.

I don't think you have to choose between addressing fundamental issues around treaty and improvements in health, education, and life expectancy.

qf789 wrote:

Could we please stick to the topic, that being the Commonwealth Games, if you wish to discuss the plight of aboriginals start a new thread

Respectfully, I don't think you can separate the issues. The opening ceremony and visit by the Prince of Wales stirred up this debate.

Going back to the games I have to say it was suprising to see Malawi trump New Zealand in netball. It's always nice when the underdog wins.

RetroRoo wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

Aboriginal problems won't be solved by land title, their issues are much deeper than that.

That's convenient for the crown, isn't it.

I don't think you have to choose between addressing fundamental issues around treaty and improvements in health, education, and life expectancy.

No, you don't have to choose, but in my mind, land title is far down the pecking order of priorities. Sure, hand over land tomorrow and they will still be in the same position they're in now.

This is now a cultural issue, being a cultural shift, which I sadly can't see them recovering from.

I'm dismayed that the mods changed the topic of this thread, but if it must happen can we at least correctly capitalise 'Indigenous Australians'?

This was timely,

BBC Trending
Thor director Taika Waititi says New Zealand is racist

He described the type of racism he faced in New Zealand: "People just flat-out refuse to pronounce Maori names properly. There's still profiling when it comes to Polynesians. It's not even a colour thing - like, 'Oh, there's a black person.' It's, 'If you're Poly then you're getting profiled.'" http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43698313

Yet we have at least one person participating in this thread who routinely insists only the US has racism and pretends to know all about it and how to fix it. The reality is, one country talks about its racism(ad nauseam) while most others pretend it doesn't exist.

It’s got nothing to do with the topic which is the commonwealth games. Plus he hasn’t lived in NZ for a long time.

Kiwirob wrote:

RetroRoo wrote:

Airstud wrote:

What are the indigenous protesters' demands? Expectations?

Treaty, primarily. A return of land owned by the crown to its traditional owners.
The continent was invaded in the name of a powerful aristocratic family who remain in power. I sympathise with the protesters completely.

They just need to get with the program and grow up, Australia was colonised it happened it’s not going back, ditto for
NZ, both countries without colonisation would be complete shitholes.

oh, I get it, Rob, you are trolling by tramping on history like that

Kiwirob wrote:

Should transgender Laurel Hubbard be allowed to compete in the woman’s 90kg weightlifting event? It’s a strength event, Hubbard is significantly stronger than any other female in the competition. Hubbard transitioned in his 30’s this is not a child who transitioned before puberty. It’s simply not fair to all the females in the competition to have to compete for silver rather than a shot at gold. This is not about being PC, it’s about a level playing field and being fair to all competitors.

She's out due to an injury.

CCGPV wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Should transgender Laurel Hubbard be allowed to compete in the woman’s 90kg weightlifting event? It’s a strength event, Hubbard is significantly stronger than any other female in the competition. Hubbard transitioned in his 30’s this is not a child who transitioned before puberty. It’s simply not fair to all the females in the competition to have to compete for silver rather than a shot at gold. This is not about being PC, it’s about a level playing field and being fair to all competitors.

She's out due to an injury.

Well that’s good news. Painful looking to.

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

RetroRoo wrote:

Treaty, primarily. A return of land owned by the crown to its traditional owners.
The continent was invaded in the name of a powerful aristocratic family who remain in power. I sympathise with the protesters completely.

They just need to get with the program and grow up, Australia was colonised it happened it’s not going back, ditto for
NZ, both countries without colonisation would be complete shitholes.

oh, I get it, Rob, you are trolling by tramping on history like that

What history have I trampled on?? Colonisation happened, there’s no going back.

If you’ve ever been to an Aboriginal township in Australia you’d see my point. If you’ve ever been to a pacific island you’d get my reference to NZ as well.

Kiwirob wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

They just need to get with the program and grow up, Australia was colonised it happened it’s not going back, ditto for
NZ, both countries without colonisation would be complete shitholes.

oh, I get it, Rob, you are trolling by tramping on history like that

What history have I trampled on?? Colonisation happened, there’s no going back.

If you’ve ever been to an Aboriginal township in Australia you’d see my point. If you’ve ever been to a pacific island you’d get my reference to NZ as well.

Kind of western superiority thinking and disrespectful towards the original settlers.

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

oh, I get it, Rob, you are trolling by tramping on history like that

What history have I trampled on?? Colonisation happened, there’s no going back.

If you’ve ever been to an Aboriginal township in Australia you’d see my point. If you’ve ever been to a pacific island you’d get my reference to NZ as well.

Kind of western superiority thinking and disrespectful towards the original settlers.

Funny that everyone living in NZ is westernised with the exception of recent Chinese immigrants and refugees.

Freakysh wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

The least white people could do is acknowledge that our success rode on the backs of these other people throughout history.

Well that has been done. The Australian government did that formally in 2008.

The lives of Aboriginals haven't improved since that day.

Aside from virtue signalling, does anyone have an ideas about how to help these people improve their lives?

The point isn't to make their lives better. The point is to acknowledge who we screwed over to get where we are, rather than continue to insult them by denying that Europeans did in fact take advantage of the indigenous peoples of literally every other inhabited continent.

I'm mostly white with a miniscule amount of native american. It's not like I hold myself in contempt, I just respect history as it actually happened.

Jouhou wrote:

The least white people could do is acknowledge that our success rode on the backs of these other people throughout history.

Well that has been done. The Australian government did that formally in 2008.

The lives of Aboriginals haven't improved since that day.

Aside from virtue signalling, does anyone have an ideas about how to help these people improve their lives?

Jouhou wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

The least white people could do is acknowledge that our success rode on the backs of these other people throughout history.

Well that has been done. The Australian government did that formally in 2008.

The lives of Aboriginals haven't improved since that day.

Aside from virtue signalling, does anyone have an ideas about how to help these people improve their lives?

The point isn't to make their lives better. The point is to acknowledge who we screwed over to get where we are, rather than continue to insult them by denying that Europeans did in fact take advantage of the indigenous peoples of literally every other inhabited continent.

I'm mostly white with a miniscule amount of native american. It's not like I hold myself in contempt, I just respect history as it actually happened.

In NZ we have been acknowledging past greivences for my entire life, it’s become an industry, it’s about time that we call an end to it. Like the Germans for WW2 there’s only so many times you can apologise.

Kiwirob wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

Well that has been done. The Australian government did that formally in 2008.

The lives of Aboriginals haven't improved since that day.

Aside from virtue signalling, does anyone have an ideas about how to help these people improve their lives?

The point isn't to make their lives better. The point is to acknowledge who we screwed over to get where we are, rather than continue to insult them by denying that Europeans did in fact take advantage of the indigenous peoples of literally every other inhabited continent.

I'm mostly white with a miniscule amount of native american. It's not like I hold myself in contempt, I just respect history as it actually happened.

In NZ we have been acknowledging past greivences for my entire life, it’s become an industry, it’s about time that we call an end to it. Like the Germans for WW2 there’s only so many times you can apologise.

Y'all apparently didn't interbreed enough like we did. In the US native and European ancestries are pretty well mixed together for the most part.

Kiwirob wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

What history have I trampled on?? Colonisation happened, there’s no going back.

If you’ve ever been to an Aboriginal township in Australia you’d see my point. If you’ve ever been to a pacific island you’d get my reference to NZ as well.

Kind of western superiority thinking and disrespectful towards the original settlers.

Funny that everyone living in NZ is westernised with the exception of recent Chinese immigrants and refugees.

And your point being?

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Kind of western superiority thinking and disrespectful towards the original settlers.

Funny that everyone living in NZ is westernised with the exception of recent Chinese immigrants and refugees.

And your point being?

Maori people are as westernised as I am, or you are. There can’t be any disrespect as we share the same values, have the same education standards, and are essentially the same.

Kiwirob wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Funny that everyone living in NZ is westernised with the exception of recent Chinese immigrants and refugees.

And your point being?

Maori people are as westernised as I am, or you are. There can’t be any disrespect as we share the same values, have the same education standards, and are essentially the same.

Assimilation thus there is no way there is no respect? Interesting concept.

Maori assimilated right from the start, Maori and Europeans marrried right from the beginning, it would be hard to find a Maori who wasn’t partly European. Besides which you’re dutch your treatment of Indonesia puts the British in a pretty good light re NZ. Maori were never slaves or indentured labour, they had voting rights as soon as parliament was set up. Maori were british citizens like everyone else in NZ, native Indonesians didn’t have that right. The Dutch govt hasn’t apologised or paid reperations for the atrocities inflicted under Dutch East India Company rule, so come back when you’ve fixed your shady past before having a crack at NZ.