LJ
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:40 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


Let's see... Because US customers are not willing to pay the prices that need to be charged for all those good imported from China if they were US-produced? In an ideal world, things would be different, but that is not how global trade works nowadays.


And because Americans consume more than they can produce. Moreover, the US has a large service industry and thus needs others to do the manuacturing.

tommy1808 wrote:
because if China doesn´t use the money to buy US treasury bonds, who is going to fund your budget?
f

I wonder how long it will take until Americans (Trump included) to understand this. If China stops buying US treasuries, the US government will have a problem. Hence why the status quo for many years. China is (or has been) both a problem but also a solution for the US government.
 
2122M
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:50 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:

Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


For the same reason Target runs a huge trade surplus with me. They sell cheap stuff, I buy like buying cheap stuff. With a bit more nuance, the same principal applies.
 
DDR
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:09 pm

I can't help but think that this is karma for Boeing after the stunt they tried to pull with the C Series for DL
 
Pyrex
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:47 pm

No mention of how Chuck Schumer actually applauded the tariffs decided by this administration? Of course not, everything is Trump's fault, for actually being the only elected politician following through on his campaign promises...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:17 pm

DDR wrote:
I can't help but think that this is karma for Boeing after the stunt they tried to pull with the C Series for DL


Or, for selling WA taxpayer/EXIM subsidized planes to foreign carriers who dump capacity/lower prices on US carriers.
 
tommy1808
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:24 pm

Pyrex wrote:
everything is Trump's fault,


Doh... he is the president, who's else's fault should it be? It is not like congress forced him with a law like they had to with the sanctions against Russia.

for actually being the only elected politician following through on his campaign promises...


Locking up Hillary?
Releasing his Tax returns?
Sueing his accusers for libel?
Mexiko paying for the wall?
Rebuilding infrastructure?
Branding China a currency manipulator?

He hasn't even delivered all the promisses he could just unilaterally do.....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:14 pm

2122M wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:

Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


For the same reason Target runs a huge trade surplus with me. They sell cheap stuff, I buy like buying cheap stuff. With a bit more nuance, the same principal applies.


Sounds like something my old econ professors would say. Then why have exports at all?
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:15 pm

LJ wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


Let's see... Because US customers are not willing to pay the prices that need to be charged for all those good imported from China if they were US-produced? In an ideal world, things would be different, but that is not how global trade works nowadays.


And because Americans consume more than they can produce. Moreover, the US has a large service industry and thus needs others to do the manuacturing.

tommy1808 wrote:
because if China doesn´t use the money to buy US treasury bonds, who is going to fund your budget?
f

I wonder how long it will take until Americans (Trump included) to understand this. If China stops buying US treasuries, the US government will have a problem. Hence why the status quo for many years. China is (or has been) both a problem but also a solution for the US government.


If China stopped buying US treasury bonds, the USA would have to live within its means and China could consume more. A rebalancing of the world economy would be a good thing
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


Revelation wrote:
...but I thought the right was against government regulation and in favor of market rules.


Free market rules apply to everything, the market is wise auto regulating itself. As long as the winning hand is always on the same side, of course :banghead:


There is no free market in international trade.
 
2122M
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:26 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
2122M wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:

Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


For the same reason Target runs a huge trade surplus with me. They sell cheap stuff, I buy like buying cheap stuff. With a bit more nuance, the same principal applies.


Sounds like something my old econ professors would say. Then why have exports at all?


Because some consumers in other countries want to buy some US made products? I think that's fairly simple really. But overall we a wealthy nation of consumers and we do more buying than selling. If we ever end up running a trade surplus with China, than something has probably gone horribly wrong for us (or tremendously well for China).
 
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Mortyman
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:34 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:

Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


If you look at the US economy and it's trade deficit in more general terms, the US trade deficit is a direct consequence of the country's living over ability, consuming more than it produces and saves less than it invests and because this situation can last as long as the United States has the privilege of issuing the world's leading reserve currency: the dollar.

Can't really blame China, the EU or the world at large for this. The fingers primarely needs to be pointed at Washington.

The fact that the US insisted on starting the Iraq war without any good reason and do it on credit card was not very helpful either.


But it has become the easy solution for politicians in Washington: Blame everybody else but themselves or the USA. Everything is everybody elses fault.
 
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Aesma
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 pm

estorilm wrote:
It's almost too late anyways, these issues should have been addressed DECADES ago, and now almost any attempt at leveling the playing field can/will result in (temporary) backlash - with Amazon and such, China has too much leverage (primary reason they can do whatever they want).


Decades ago the US was actively pushing for the exact opposite : letting the wolf in the sheep's den at an accelerated pace, when China was nowhere near meeting WTO standards.

Trump should complain about his predecessors (before Obama), not China who didn't even lobby that hard.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Jouhou
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 pm

Pyrex wrote:
No mention of how Chuck Schumer actually applauded the tariffs decided by this administration? Of course not, everything is Trump's fault, for actually being the only elected politician following through on his campaign promises...


Or Elizabeth Warren! Trumpsters have gone full socialist libtard!
 
LJ
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:13 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
If China stopped buying US treasury bonds, the USA would have to live within its means and China could consume more. A rebalancing of the world economy would be a good thing


Then who would buy those US treasuries (and essentially fund the US government)? China could invest more in other countries bonds, buy even more EU/US companies (and thus becoming even more competitive). The only drawback for China is that it will raise the CNY compared to the USD (which would in theory increase export from the US to China, but not in a trade war situation). Then again, it would make US companies cheaper for Chinese companies to buy (or is Trump going to prevent that as well?).

BTW China will not increase consumption if it's above its target.
 
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Revelation
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:16 pm

Aesma wrote:
estorilm wrote:
It's almost too late anyways, these issues should have been addressed DECADES ago, and now almost any attempt at leveling the playing field can/will result in (temporary) backlash - with Amazon and such, China has too much leverage (primary reason they can do whatever they want).


Decades ago the US was actively pushing for the exact opposite : letting the wolf in the sheep's den at an accelerated pace, when China was nowhere near meeting WTO standards.

Trump should complain about his predecessors (before Obama), not China who didn't even lobby that hard.

The blame goes to Sam Walton's adopted son, Bill Clinton.
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keesje
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:24 pm

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Mortyman
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:28 pm

keesje wrote:


and not only China ...
 
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Tugger
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:49 pm

Mortyman wrote:
keesje wrote:


and not only China ...

Quite honestly that is truly more China's problem than anything else. They can't "call the debt" or anything. The real issue might be if they stop buying future debt which they have already slowed down doing anyway. But again that also very much impacts China directly. As dysfunctional as the USA currently seems politically it is still likely one of the better nations to invest with (my opinion, yours may differ of course). And China has to do something with the still vastly net positive inflow of US currency (if they still wish to sell to the USA).

The US debt is overwhelmingly owed to the USA and US citizens and companies and investments etc.

Tugg
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Jayafe
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:52 pm

Tugger wrote:
Quite honestly that is truly more China's problem than anything else. They can't "call the debt" or anything.


If they put all that debt in the market, the price for such bonds (and every additional penny the US could try to sell to anyone else onwards) would cause the price to drop so much it would be worth it peanuts. Bad for China? Indeed, but nothing compared with practically destroying the US economy, taking them to default in a matter of weeks (or less). Actually the only response the US could use is the military one, war, but against China and with unpaid soldiers.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:05 pm

China has a trade SURPLUS with the US to the tune of $566 billion U.S. ANNUALLY.
No matter how some want to see Trump losing this standoff with China it just won't happen. Because it can't.
China simply has much, much more to lose than the US.
China eventually will have to accept fairer trade conditions, start respecting intellectual property rights etc. I understand that same people would rather see the whole US manufacturing base, the whole economy even go down in flames as long as Trump goes down with it but thankfully that won't happen.


Jayafe wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Quite honestly that is truly more China's problem than anything else. They can't "call the debt" or anything.


If they put all that debt in the market, the price for such bonds (and every additional penny the US could try to sell to anyone else onwards) would cause the price to drop so much it would be worth it peanuts. Bad for China? Indeed, but nothing compared with practically destroying the US economy, taking them to default in a matter of weeks (or less). Actually the only response the US could use is the military one, war, but against China and with unpaid soldiers.


Image
Last edited by P1aneMad on Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LJ
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:20 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
China eventually will have to accept fairer trade conditions, start respecting intellectual property rights etc.


I hope you're being ironic, though you do say fairer, which basically is everything better than the current situation.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:29 pm

LJ wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
China eventually will have to accept fairer trade conditions, start respecting intellectual property rights etc.


I hope you're being ironic, though you do say fairer, which basically is everything better than the current situation.

Cold, hard facts are not "ironic" or anything else. They are just... facts.
$566 billion U.S. ANNUAL trade surplus for the Chinese is a fact. They can either take a substantial cut in it or risk losing not only that but even more importantly the trade surpluses they enjoy with the rest of the planet too.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:36 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Image


Image
 
P1aneMad
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:38 pm

Image
 
waly777
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:47 pm

bigjku wrote:
waly777 wrote:
This is unnecessary and will get ugly really quickly.


Interest here are very narrow. I believe a statement like this needs some support. Why is it unnecessary in the long run? Is there no problem at all to deal with?


There is a problem but this isn't how to deal with it. A farmer does not remove weeds from his farmland by burning down everything.

There are no winners in trade wars, the consumer will suffer the most.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
bigjku
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:24 pm

waly777 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
waly777 wrote:
This is unnecessary and will get ugly really quickly.


Interest here are very narrow. I believe a statement like this needs some support. Why is it unnecessary in the long run? Is there no problem at all to deal with?


There is a problem but this isn't how to deal with it. A farmer does not remove weeds from his farmland by burning down everything.

There are no winners in trade wars, the consumer will suffer the most.


What is your alternative solution since you say this isn’t the way to deal with it?
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:17 pm

LJ wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
If China stopped buying US treasury bonds, the USA would have to live within its means and China could consume more. A rebalancing of the world economy would be a good thing


Then who would buy those US treasuries (and essentially fund the US government)? China could invest more in other countries bonds, buy even more EU/US companies (and thus becoming even more competitive). The only drawback for China is that it will raise the CNY compared to the USD (which would in theory increase export from the US to China, but not in a trade war situation). Then again, it would make US companies cheaper for Chinese companies to buy (or is Trump going to prevent that as well?).

BTW China will not increase consumption if it's above its target.


Americans would once they can no longer but Chinese products. Americans CAN buy their own bonds but they instead choose to consume rather than save. It is not as though the USA cannot finance its own budget deficit. It can, it just chooses not to.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:19 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:

Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


If you look at the US economy and it's trade deficit in more general terms, the US trade deficit is a direct consequence of the country's living over ability, consuming more than it produces and saves less than it invests and because this situation can last as long as the United States has the privilege of issuing the world's leading reserve currency: the dollar.

Can't really blame China, the EU or the world at large for this. The fingers primarely needs to be pointed at Washington.

The fact that the US insisted on starting the Iraq war without any good reason and do it on credit card was not very helpful either.


But it has become the easy solution for politicians in Washington: Blame everybody else but themselves or the USA. Everything is everybody elses fault.


It is mostly correct that the trade deficit is due to living beyond means
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:20 pm

2122M wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
2122M wrote:

For the same reason Target runs a huge trade surplus with me. They sell cheap stuff, I buy like buying cheap stuff. With a bit more nuance, the same principal applies.


Sounds like something my old econ professors would say. Then why have exports at all?


Because some consumers in other countries want to buy some US made products? I think that's fairly simple really. But overall we a wealthy nation of consumers and we do more buying than selling. If we ever end up running a trade surplus with China, than something has probably gone horribly wrong for us (or tremendously well for China).


Or Chinese people buying more of their own products rather than exporting them.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:47 pm

I think that many views on this forum are short-sighted.
Imposing reasonable tariffs to protect domestic industries is necessary against aggressive commerce.

The trade war started when China started to sell aggressively into the U.S. market.
At first it was small things but nowadays almost everything comes from China, including more and more aircraft parts.

Some products are not worth producing domestically. The manpower cost is not worth the final cost of the product.
That's how it all started. One after the other, products became seemingly uneconomical to produce domestically because China can do it cheaper.
Now China is making inroads into high yield industries.

At the end of the day, every penny given to China is a penny of lost domestic spending power. You are giving that spending power away to a foreign country.
This also affects Boeing indirectly in many ways.
Example 1. Less domestic spending power, less air ticket demand, less capacity, less Boeing sales in the domestic market
Example 2. Less domestic spending power, less people paying taxes, more people on welfare, less tax revenue, less military spending, less Boeing sales in the domestic military market.

I think that Trump should impose a 20% tariff on all Chinese products or whatever percentage compensating manpower cost difference between the 2 countries.
This tariff alone would enable the U.S. to generate income. Some importers/distributors will go bust and be replaced by domestic manufacturers that provide a lot more jobs. Sure, a domestically produced iphone will cost a bit more. But a lot more people will be able to afford it.
Let's say that for instance an appliance produced in China has a cost of 500$ to a manufacturer.
If the same appliance produced in the U.S. costs 600$ because of higher manpower cost, the final consumer will pay 20% more. However, the final consumer will also have less trouble paying for it, since the 20% higher cost is compensated by a 120% increase in spending power.

China also affects spending power in another way.
In Tokyo, Chinese interests have been buying up property in bulk, especially the affordable properties. As a result, young Japanese are struggling to find the afffordable properties.

A similar phenomenon is happening in the U.S. and Europe:
http://www.scmp.com/property/hong-kong- ... ecord-high

It's a double edged sword.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:04 am

Airbus prices stay the same. More business for Airbus in general and Airbus´s China branches even more.

One has to wonder when Airbus will be slapped with a tariff by the US, why would we allow Airbus to screw us over. Are not our best friends and allies France, Britain and Germany being protected by the US might?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:37 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Airbus prices stay the same. More business for Airbus in general and Airbus´s China branches even more.

One has to wonder when Airbus will be slapped with a tariff by the US, why would we allow Airbus to screw us over. Are not our best friends and allies France, Britain and Germany being protected by the US might?


Oh come on ! What childish bs ! Grow up wil you
 
tommy1808
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:30 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Airbus prices stay the same. More business for Airbus in general and Airbus´s China branches even more.


just got to ask.. what makes using the Forums quote function so hard?

One has to wonder when Airbus will be slapped with a tariff by the US,


because, considering the value of US made parts in each and every Airbus, the US economy is just as interested in Airbus selling planes as Europe is. Or because Boeing forecasts, in the 2015 one, that Europe would spend more money on aircraft as the US (1005 vs. 940 billion USD) and the US has potentially more to lose?
Would you rather see a Boeing sold? Sure...... but becoming protectionist of one company as the goal of trade policies?

why would we allow Airbus to screw us over.


Airbus has a FAL in the US, Boeing doesn´t have a FAL in Europe. Why would Europe allow the US to to screw us over?

being protected by the US might?


Since there is no military force, other than the US´s, on this planet even half the size of the EU forces, its more like we generously allow you to use our bases and, at least in Germany, even pay for those bases. So that point is rather mute.

Waterbomber wrote:
At first it was small things but nowadays almost everything comes from China, including more and more aircraft parts.


That is the result of failed industrial policies on your side. The US economy is large enough and you have the resources, but fact of the matter is that you can not even source all the stuff you need for a manufacturing plant locally anymore, some Maschine tools you can only get from Japan, China, Germany theses days. Which makes setting up US manu´factoring even more expensive, because for those maschines transport makes up a good chunk of the costs.

Some products are not worth producing domestically. The manpower cost is not worth the final cost of the product.


That is utter nonsense. You can replace manpower with up front investment, i.e. automation, and there isn´t much you can´t automize to a point where labor becomes insignificant. This is Mainboard production in Germany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylk6VMBLrvM (Now independent EMS), a usually fairly labor intensive process, modern to the point where it competes successfully with PRC EM Services for well over a decade now.
But if your business culture and tax code makes it more attractive to set up shop in China with less up front investment, then that is what you get.

That's how it all started. One after the other, products became seemingly uneconomical to produce domestically because China can do it cheaper.


Actually being cheaper increases the market volume, one has to look at industries individually, but i would be fairly sure in many cases it would turn out that the bigger overall market creates more Sales, Marketing,Service jobs than the smaller, higher price market, would have sustained in manufacturing jobs.

Now China is making inroads into high yield industries.


Yeah, and where you can demonstrate that government money goes into lower prices, you can slap a tariff on that to undue the damage. In full compliance with WTO rules.

At the end of the day, every penny given to China is a penny of lost domestic spending power. You are giving that spending power away to a foreign country.


Also wrong, if i sell something to the US, i am getting US$. US$s are completely worthless outside of the United States, exchanging them for another currency just makes them another persons problem.

If you have US$, the ONLY things you can do with it are:

1. Buy a product or Service from the US
2. Buy US treasury bonds
3. Invest in the United States

That is it. Each and every Penny you pay to a Chinese, or any other foreign for that matter, company turns around on its heels and comes back.

This also affects Boeing indirectly in many ways.
Example 1. Less domestic spending power, less air ticket demand, less capacity, less Boeing sales in the domestic market


There is no such thing as less domestic spending power. In fact you have more money for tickets, because you got your governments budget financed by the nice people that made you Smartphone. If they wouldn´t do that, you would pay higher taxes or need to buy treasury bonds yourself. You´d have the same money to buy a ticket left as you have now, you just won´t have the smartphone.

Example 2. Less domestic spending power, less people paying taxes, more people on welfare, less tax revenue, less military spending, less Boeing sales in the domestic military market.


The trade deficit means that you are consistently using more spending power than can be justified by the value created in the US.

In Tokyo, Chinese interests have been buying up property in bulk, especially the affordable properties. As a result, young Japanese are struggling to find the afffordable properties..


Sometimes in the 80´s Real Estate in Tokyo had more combined value than the whole United States Real Estate. This ain´t new in any way, shape of form.

Tugger wrote:
Quite honestly that is truly more China's problem than anything else. They can't "call the debt" or anything.


Of course they can call the debt, not directly, but if they dump their bonds on the market you better make darn sure they get the whole face value back for those, or you´d have a tiny problem selling bonds to anyone else. Once you buy bonds, you basically admit that the money your holding on to is essentially worthless for you, there is no RoI worth mentioning in those, it is just a way to park money. That only works as long it is a damn safe way to park money. On the plus side, EUR based bonds across the pond would get a more attractive way, heck... i can life with another round of negative interest rate on our bonds. Was really nice when we had that.

Domestic interest rates would go through the roof the moment your debt demands suck up the available capital. And that does kill your economy quite effectively.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:07 am

Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
estorilm wrote:
It's almost too late anyways, these issues should have been addressed DECADES ago, and now almost any attempt at leveling the playing field can/will result in (temporary) backlash - with Amazon and such, China has too much leverage (primary reason they can do whatever they want).


Decades ago the US was actively pushing for the exact opposite : letting the wolf in the sheep's den at an accelerated pace, when China was nowhere near meeting WTO standards.

Trump should complain about his predecessors (before Obama), not China who didn't even lobby that hard.

The blame goes to Sam Walton's adopted son, Bill Clinton.


I was a kid at the time but was it that controversial ? Did Republicans do a lot to try and block it ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:08 am

keesje wrote:


But of course Trump has said that defaulting is an option...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:33 am

P1aneMad wrote:
$566 billion U.S. ANNUAL trade surplus for the Chinese is a fact.


Actually it's not a fact. That's the total US annual trade deficit, China is "only" $375 billion of that.

Waterbomber wrote:
Imposing reasonable tariffs to protect domestic industries is necessary against aggressive commerce.

The trade war started when China started to sell aggressively into the U.S. market.
At first it was small things but nowadays almost everything comes from China, including more and more aircraft parts.

Some products are not worth producing domestically. The manpower cost is not worth the final cost of the product.


You're contradicting yourself, aren't you ?

Besides, oftentimes China didn't start making stuff to sell to you, killing domestic industries, but rather, it's those domestic industries who set up plants in China and closed the local ones.

Waterbomber wrote:
I think that Trump should impose a 20% tariff on all Chinese products or whatever percentage compensating manpower cost difference between the 2 countries.


That's ridiculous. People get paid more because they're more productive. This is very obvious when looking at China, productivity has gone up a lot, salaries have gone up a lot too.

The US and US based companies should invest more to increase people's productivity.

But of course investing has been a taboo word in the US for some time, tax cut is the only approved term, even if that's not how the economy works.

The US is the country benefiting the most from globalization, that you don't fully reap those benefits is your own fault, put people in charge that care about US citizens instead of caring about billionaire donors.

The US shutting down globalization will be catastrophic for the US first.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
c933103
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:47 am

Reading report on Chinese custom group for aircrafts with empty weight higher than 45 tonnes I saw an entry that say "737-700, 45 tonnes" http://chinacustomsdata.com/jixie/88024020.html
I don't think 737-700's empty weight have been anywhere near 45 tonnes and as mentioned in my previous post other 737-700 are grouped into the smaller sized group? Is this maybe a BBJ fitted with heavy luxury cabin or something? If that is to be the case then they would be counting the OEW?
 
c933103
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:29 am

I have found a more detailed explanation for Empty Weight of aircraft offered by Qingdao Custom on the official site of General Administration of Custom of China. http://www.customs.gov.cn/eportal/ui?pa ... be13c5a92c

On the page, it gave out the definition for empty weight
as "指航空器在正常飞行状态下,除去机组人员、燃料及非永久性安装设备后的重量", which mean "The weight of aircraft, in normal flying condition, excluded the weight of crew, fuel, and non-permanently-installed facilities."
 
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Revelation
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:50 am

Aesma wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Decades ago the US was actively pushing for the exact opposite : letting the wolf in the sheep's den at an accelerated pace, when China was nowhere near meeting WTO standards.

Trump should complain about his predecessors (before Obama), not China who didn't even lobby that hard.

The blame goes to Sam Walton's adopted son, Bill Clinton.

I was a kid at the time but was it that controversial ? Did Republicans do a lot to try and block it ?

It was very controversial because GHWB had pushed for it but Congress had rejected it, and Clinton campaigned AGAINST it, but once he got into office, he flip flopped. Clinton was elected as a fresh young populist, but behind the scenes he was plugged in to powerful corporations, and his self serving flip flops led him to getting the nickname "Slick Willie". His pandering to corporations was as bad as any GOP president, IMHO. It's also why I say there's no real difference between Dem and GOP since those days. Both parties pander deeply to corporations. They have no choice, because if you don't, you don't get the funds needed to get elected. The rest is just media driven culture war facades.

http://tech.mit.edu/V114/N27/china.27w.html (quote of a WaPo article) gives a good summary of the Clinton-era MFN controversy.

Back then the big talking point was "human rights". The thought process was if we could get the Chinese to stop jailing political dissidents and stop jamming foreign radio broadcasts then democracy would break out. Keep in mind Tiananmen Square happened in 1989. I guess in retrospect this is naive but this was a simpler, pre-Internet time.

The article never uses the term "intellectual property". It just wasn't on the main stream media's radar. It seems that "human rights" masked such concerns.

It does say:

Clinton had been the subject of heavy lobbying by American business interests and his economic advisers to continue China's trade privileges. With China now the world's fastest growing economy, the United States exports $8 billion a year there, which sustains up to 150,000 American jobs. Many major American businesses see even greater potential in Chinese markets, expecting China to become a massive purchaser over the next decade of the phones, electronic gadgets and thousands of other products made in America.

So, 24 years ago in 1994, main stream media outlets were pushing the line that China would be a massive purchaser of US made phones!

I think that clearly was them pushing the corporate line. Even then the "man on the street" knew free trade with China would result in massive imports from China and massive loss of US jobs. Ross Perot had warned of the "massive sucking sound" of jobs leaving the US via NAFTA. We had seen Japanese car imports smack down the US auto industry. So, when we read such things, we knew it was all bull****.

It remained an irritant because the law required MFN status to be renewed each year so the same arguments would come up each year. Clinton campaigned for permanent MFN status ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/W ... 0-idx.html ) in 2000. I presume it was accepted because the issue has gone quiet.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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Aesma
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:59 pm

Interesting, thanks.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:27 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
waly777 wrote:
This is unnecessary and will get ugly really quickly.


Why should China be allowed to run $200b trade surpluses with the USA continuously?


Is it China’s fault that American companies flocked to China to build everything and the US govt made it easy for them to do it. Talk about an own goal!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:52 pm

2122M wrote:
Because some consumers in other countries want to buy some US made products? I think that's fairly simple really. But overall we a wealthy nation of consumers and we do more buying than selling. If we ever end up running a trade surplus with China, than something has probably gone horribly wrong for us (or tremendously well for China).


Just wondering apart from aeroplanes and weapons what US made products do people buy, I honestly can’t think of anything. I do have some Hershey’s chocolate sauce in my pantry which I thought was American made but it’s made in europe. I did want to buy a DCS gas grill, DCS are owned by Fisher and Paykle a New Zealand company who are in turn owned by a Chinese company.
 
2122M
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
2122M wrote:
Because some consumers in other countries want to buy some US made products? I think that's fairly simple really. But overall we a wealthy nation of consumers and we do more buying than selling. If we ever end up running a trade surplus with China, than something has probably gone horribly wrong for us (or tremendously well for China).


Just wondering apart from aeroplanes and weapons what US made products do people buy, I honestly can’t think of anything. I do have some Hershey’s chocolate sauce in my pantry which I thought was American made but it’s made in europe. I did want to buy a DCS gas grill, DCS are owned by Fisher and Paykle a New Zealand company who are in turn owned by a Chinese company.


The whole list is right here:

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-imports- ... cs-3306270

Highlights are Industrial Machines (which does not include aircraft), semi-conductors, chemicals, plastic, pharmaceuticals (that's a big one), soybean and other agra.

There is quite a bit. Mostly raw materials and high end goods. The cheap, mass produced stuff (aka your grill and chocolate sauce) comes from overseas because its cheap to produce (especially en masse).

Another list of US made consumer goods if you are interested.



https://clark.com/shopping-retail/ameri ... n-the-usa/
 
CCGPV
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
2122M wrote:
Because some consumers in other countries want to buy some US made products? I think that's fairly simple really. But overall we a wealthy nation of consumers and we do more buying than selling. If we ever end up running a trade surplus with China, than something has probably gone horribly wrong for us (or tremendously well for China).


Just wondering apart from aeroplanes and weapons what US made products do people buy, I honestly can’t think of anything. I do have some Hershey’s chocolate sauce in my pantry which I thought was American made but it’s made in europe. I did want to buy a DCS gas grill, DCS are owned by Fisher and Paykle a New Zealand company who are in turn owned by a Chinese company.


Are you for real?

Caterpillar, Ford/GM, Google products, Tesla, Apple, Food products, Oil, GE turbines/medical imaging, Medical instruments, etc.
Stay curious
 
PPVRA
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:12 pm

Out of curiosity, what was the previous import tariff in place in China on business aircraft like the affected Gulfstream model? Anyone know?

Embraer built a plant in China to get around Chinese imposed trade barriers several years ago.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Olddog
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:21 pm

Yes and for example you perfectly know that you should slap a 30 % tax on each iphone not US made if you want to see theses jobs come back....
 
Kiwirob
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:44 pm

CCGPV wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
2122M wrote:
Because some consumers in other countries want to buy some US made products? I think that's fairly simple really. But overall we a wealthy nation of consumers and we do more buying than selling. If we ever end up running a trade surplus with China, than something has probably gone horribly wrong for us (or tremendously well for China).


Just wondering apart from aeroplanes and weapons what US made products do people buy, I honestly can’t think of anything. I do have some Hershey’s chocolate sauce in my pantry which I thought was American made but it’s made in europe. I did want to buy a DCS gas grill, DCS are owned by Fisher and Paykle a New Zealand company who are in turn owned by a Chinese company.


Are you for real?

Caterpillar, Ford/GM, Google products, Tesla, Apple, Food products, Oil, GE turbines/medical imaging, Medical instruments, etc.


How many of those items are actually made in the US which are exported overseas. All my apple products are made in China, European market Tesla’s are made in the Netherlands, Fords are designed and built in Europe, GM is basically no longer in the European market but when they were the products were designed and built in Europe. Google products are made in a China. Almost everything Cat sells in Europe is made in the UK.

I would struggle to find any US brands which are made in the US in Norway, the Ford Mustang is about it.
 
2122M
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Just wondering apart from aeroplanes and weapons what US made products do people buy, I honestly can’t think of anything. I do have some Hershey’s chocolate sauce in my pantry which I thought was American made but it’s made in europe. I did want to buy a DCS gas grill, DCS are owned by Fisher and Paykle a New Zealand company who are in turn owned by a Chinese company.


Are you for real?

Caterpillar, Ford/GM, Google products, Tesla, Apple, Food products, Oil, GE turbines/medical imaging, Medical instruments, etc.


How many of those items are actually made in the US which are exported overseas. All my apple products are made in China, European market Tesla’s are made in the Netherlands, Fords are designed and built in Europe, GM is basically no longer in the European market but when they were the products were designed and built in Europe. Google products are made in a China. Almost everything Cat sells in Europe is made in the UK.

I would struggle to find any US brands which are made in the US in Norway, the Ford Mustang is about it.


https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/euro ... ope/norway

Do some googling before posting. You'll find many of your questions answered online with all the facts and figures to back it up.

At the root of it though, you are correct. It is cheaper for US companies to manufacture their goods outside of the US and re-import them for sale. Hence, the trade deficit. This is because US consumers are not willing or able to take manufacturing jobs at $1.00 / hr nor are they willing to pay a 300% premium on goods to be manufactured here in the US.
 
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Jayafe
Posts: 1216
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Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:29 pm

Olddog wrote:
Yes and for example you perfectly know that you should slap a 30 % tax on each iphone not US made if you want to see theses jobs come back....


That would mean whipping those jobs and the company itself, not taking anything back. XIX century mentality.
 
mham001
Posts: 5082
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: China announces 25% tariff against some US-built planes

Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:44 pm

Redd wrote:

It'll get ugly and for the USA more so than for China. China can get anything it needs elsewhere while taking a small hit on exports. China is the USA's biggest market when it comes to luxury goods and technology.


Oh nonsense. Any tit for tat is going to hit China harder because $60 Billion (for example) in China goes a hell of a lot further than $60 Billion in the US. Beyond these tit for tats, China has a $566 Billion/year advantage to lose.

LJ wrote:
Then who would buy those US treasuries (and essentially fund the US government)?


What led you to believe that only China buys US bonds? This argument is vastly overstated and glaringly short on sourced numbers.
Last edited by mham001 on Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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