Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
PixelPilot wrote:People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
cpd wrote:Bobloblaw wrote:VC10er wrote:There is just so much personal stuff in someone’s life up on social media that is nobody’s business.
Then dont put it on social media.
All the better to not use social media at all. I don't- it's stupid. Why anyone needs to put every little detail on Twitter or Facebook I'll never know.
However, do sites like this one here also qualify as social media? Mods and site support staff, you'd better get to work providing all this info!
PixelPilot wrote:dredgy wrote:ual763 wrote:
Visitors from the following countries don’t require visas to visit the USA for stays up to 90 days.
Yet a lot of the comments so far, are from people from these countries who are saying that somehow the proposed changes will hinder, or inconvenience, their travel plans.
Every country needs a “visa”to enter the US. If you are exempted country, you have to apply for a visa waiver, which is basically a visa.
I’m Australian and when applying for a visa waiver last year (which I have successfully done countless times before), I was pulled up because of my travel history (have been to Iran, Iraq and Syria, but before 2011 so still eligible for VWP) and asked for all social media information. I terminated my application, went to China for holiday and slowly started pulling my business interests out of the States.
Then you most likely missed a very nice quality time in a beautiful country.
You carry a cellphone that tracks you 24/7, use internet that knows your IP but you throw a sissy fit cause somebody asked you for some info just to make sure you are a decent human?
People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
ElPistolero wrote:PixelPilot wrote:People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
People like you sound daft to me. If nothing to hide then why do US citizens insist on maintaining the constitutional right to privacy?
What were the authors of the fourth amendment trying to hide?
Why was the alleged spying on US citizens during the last election a big deal?
Why don't Americans like the idea of the NSA monitoring everything they do?
The US is a great place to visit. But it's probably time to wake up to the fact that people with enough discretionary income to travel aren't going to bother with countries that treat them with a presumption of guilt rather than a presumption of innocence (which is the basis of US law).
There are many, many other places in the world for non- US citizens to spend their money in without first having to prove that they're not crooks. Just a matter of self-respect.
JoeCanuck wrote:PixelPilot wrote:dredgy wrote:
Every country needs a “visa”to enter the US. If you are exempted country, you have to apply for a visa waiver, which is basically a visa.
I’m Australian and when applying for a visa waiver last year (which I have successfully done countless times before), I was pulled up because of my travel history (have been to Iran, Iraq and Syria, but before 2011 so still eligible for VWP) and asked for all social media information. I terminated my application, went to China for holiday and slowly started pulling my business interests out of the States.
Then you most likely missed a very nice quality time in a beautiful country.
You carry a cellphone that tracks you 24/7, use internet that knows your IP but you throw a sissy fit cause somebody asked you for some info just to make sure you are a decent human?
People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
That sounds like cop talk. "If you have nothing to hide, why not answer a few questions. You don't need a lawyer if you're innocent...and innocent people never go to jail".
I find it sadly ironic that Trump loves to blame foreigners for crime in the US, It's the home grown criminals which really threaten America. There are more than 10,000 murders in the US every year...committed by Americans. 3000 Americans were murdered by foreign terrorists on 9/11. Since then, more than 200,000 were murdered by fellow Americans.
There's even more irony. The only foreigners who won't have to expose their social media are the ones who enter the country illegally...like the thousands of undocumented workers at Trump's hotels. Like most legislation that is aimed to do little more than make appear that the leaders are leading, this one will only hurt law abiding people. Criminals will either deny having social media, make up fake accounts or just sneak in. It's the people who enter honestly who will face unending lineups at immigration.
....and just one more bit of irony. Since EVERYBODY will have to be examined, border guards will be sifting through endless selfies and tweets, instead of actually looking for criminals entering the US.
Yes...A.net is social media so woe unto you if you happened to dis Boeing, the US3, AF1, or anything Trumpian.
JoeCanuck wrote:I find it sadly ironic that Trump loves to blame foreigners for crime in the US, It's the home grown criminals which really threaten America. There are more than 10,000 murders in the US every year...committed by Americans. 3000 Americans were murdered by foreign terrorists on 9/11. Since then, more than 200,000 were murdered by fellow Americans.
JoeCanuck wrote:and just one more bit of irony. Since EVERYBODY will have to be examined, border guards will be sifting through endless selfies and tweets, instead of actually looking for criminals entering the US.
PixelPilot wrote:People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
Redd wrote:PixelPilot wrote:People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
Spoken like a true Soviet.....
Aesma wrote:Don't the NSA, FBI, CIA, and probably a couple of black agencies spend like 100 billions a year spying on everybody already ?
bhill wrote:Yup...see you in court...
"The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."
"A bill of attainder was a legislative act that singled out one or more persons and imposed punishment on them, without benefit of trial. Such actions were regarded as odious by the framers of the Constitution because it was the traditional role of a court, judging an individual case, to impose punishment."
PixelPilot wrote:Redd wrote:PixelPilot wrote:People like you sound fishy to me. If nothing to hide then why hiding?
Spoken like a true Soviet.....
lol.
It's logic.
Want privacy then leave the internet behind, disconnect you phone and TV, grab few cows and enjoy your life in the middle of nowhere. Not that you can stop satellites collecting data but it's a start.
It's 21st century. Even a clerk at some store in the end of the world is collecting data on products that you buy if you are frequent there just to make sure he has enough of stock to make a dollar next time you stop by.
The era of anonymous and very often vicious and harmful internet is slowly coming to an end. Too many people fall victim to it. Not that I like it or dislike it's just I see it as the inevitable evolution from it's current state.
Some people take freedom too far and the rest gets punished.Aesma wrote:Don't the NSA, FBI, CIA, and probably a couple of black agencies spend like 100 billions a year spying on everybody already ?
Anybody that believes that they are not lives in a sweet bubble.
And as to declining to provide information when filing for visa and such programs I'm pretty sure whatever was already presented is marked with a nice red checkbox that says "petitioner declined" lol. Little waving flag so next time they screen that person 10 times harder. Obviously this is just my way of thinking and I might have read too many books and watched too many movies but simple logic it's where I'm coming from.
**sorry for the edits. By browser is doing some weird stuff... Maybe I waz hacs?
leghorn wrote:I find it funny that the U.S. thinks that it can submit affluent Western Europeans to every sort of indignity from surly border staff on entry to the States to background checks to fingerprinting right down to understaffed passport checks leading to queues hours long at points of entry and still expect those affluent potential Tourists to chose the U.S. as a holiday destination in preference to anywhere else in the world.
I'm dropping out of this conversation as my comments might be mistaken for trolling.
leftyboarder wrote:leghorn wrote:I find it funny that the U.S. thinks that it can submit affluent Western Europeans to every sort of indignity from surly border staff on entry to the States to background checks to fingerprinting right down to understaffed passport checks leading to queues hours long at points of entry and still expect those affluent potential Tourists to chose the U.S. as a holiday destination in preference to anywhere else in the world.
I'm dropping out of this conversation as my comments might be mistaken for trolling.
As much as I resent the US move towards more xenophobia, I can't help but be reminded of Western European countries asking for everything from house deeds to 3 month pay slips to marriage certificates to bank account movements (which all infringe on privacy) to give Schengen visas valid for a few months (or even days) to people from the rest of the world including my country - Turkey. So I say maybe Western European countries themselves should look at their own visa policies towards the rest of the world. US might have a bad visa policy and it might be getting worse, but it's still fairer than what the EU has in most cases.
ual763 wrote:bhill wrote:Yup...see you in court...
"The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."
"A bill of attainder was a legislative act that singled out one or more persons and imposed punishment on them, without benefit of trial. Such actions were regarded as odious by the framers of the Constitution because it was the traditional role of a court, judging an individual case, to impose punishment."
You must be forgetting that foreigners are not covered by our Constitution as they are not US Citizens.
707Liner wrote:...which is a pity because there is so much to see and Americans are, in the main, extremely friendly and polite.
MalevTU134 wrote:While I am no lawyer, and even less so in the US, I would be really surprised - and disappointed - if the US Constitution wouldn't cover any person on US soil (at least - probably even outside US soil in some special instances). Any US lawyer here, please feel free to correct me.
salttee wrote:MalevTU134 wrote:While I am no lawyer, and even less so in the US, I would be really surprised - and disappointed - if the US Constitution wouldn't cover any person on US soil (at least - probably even outside US soil in some special instances). Any US lawyer here, please feel free to correct me.
In the main that is correct, but i believe the above statement was referring to before they reached US soil.
ElPistolero wrote:PixelPilot wrote:Redd wrote:
Spoken like a true Soviet.....
lol.
It's logic.
Want privacy then leave the internet behind, disconnect you phone and TV, grab few cows and enjoy your life in the middle of nowhere. Not that you can stop satellites collecting data but it's a start.
It's 21st century. Even a clerk at some store in the end of the world is collecting data on products that you buy if you are frequent there just to make sure he has enough of stock to make a dollar next time you stop by.
The era of anonymous and very often vicious and harmful internet is slowly coming to an end. Too many people fall victim to it. Not that I like it or dislike it's just I see it as the inevitable evolution from it's current state.
Some people take freedom too far and the rest gets punished.Aesma wrote:Don't the NSA, FBI, CIA, and probably a couple of black agencies spend like 100 billions a year spying on everybody already ?
Anybody that believes that they are not lives in a sweet bubble.
And as to declining to provide information when filing for visa and such programs I'm pretty sure whatever was already presented is marked with a nice red checkbox that says "petitioner declined" lol. Little waving flag so next time they screen that person 10 times harder. Obviously this is just my way of thinking and I might have read too many books and watched too many movies but simple logic it's where I'm coming from.
**sorry for the edits. By browser is doing some weird stuff... Maybe I waz hacs?
It's not logic. It's half-baked nonsense. It's about as "smart" as arguing that the fourth amendment should be dropped and anyone opposed to that should seal themselves off in an underground cave.
Again, nobody objects to the Government's right to google them. What they object to is the notion that they have to disclose whatever they consider private information because of a presumption of guilt without reasonable cause. If you don't understand what that means, google it. Predicate this approach on reasonable cause and the issue goes away.
Keep it and the kind of people you want visiting the US (people from affluent countries that place a strong emphasis on privacy) will find other places for their discretionary spending.
PixelPilot wrote:The era of anonymous and very often vicious and harmful internet is slowly coming to an end.
texdravid wrote:I think it’s a great idea. Any tool to keep the country safe is fine.
This is being done because of recent Islamist terrorist massacres, such as Sacramento and Orlando. The FBI and other agencies had some or all of these Jihadis on their radar and failed to check on online profiles and the culprits’ advancing radicalization.
Another thing that should be considered is detailed interviews where individuals seeking green cards or permanent residence should be asked pointed questions on their views of a liberal multicultural society, freedom of religion, the western ideals of empowered women, sexual freedoms, etc.
This is so anyone opposed to the modern liberal democracy and all of its rights and responsibilities have absolutely no reason to be in the USA.
texdravid wrote:I think it’s a great idea. Any tool to keep the country safe is fine.
This is being done because of recent Islamist terrorist massacres, such as Sacramento and Orlando. The FBI and other agencies had some or all of these Jihadis on their radar and failed to check on online profiles and the culprits’ advancing radicalization.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:texdravid wrote:I think it’s a great idea. Any tool to keep the country safe is fine.
This is being done because of recent Islamist terrorist massacres, such as Sacramento and Orlando. The FBI and other agencies had some or all of these Jihadis on their radar and failed to check on online profiles and the culprits’ advancing radicalization.
Just a heads-up for you; not everyone knows what you are talking about in respect of Sacramento & Orlando, particularly those who are not US residents.
I looked up Sacramento + shootings and found myself reading about the Stephon Clark "situation".
In fact the police shooting of unarmed Clark has not reached any foreign news outlet of note, which is rather sad. Maybe it is because it happens too often.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Stephon_Clark
So then I searched Sacramento + terrorism, and found out about the suicide bomber attack on Travis AFB, which massacred..... er, just the bomber himself.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/03/ ... orce-base/
At least both of those events are recent, i.e. March 2018.
When it comes to Orlando, I found this news report dating from June 2016, which doesn't quite fit the description of "recent"
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavl ... s-n2177025
So.... which of these events are the ones you are referencing? I realize I may have missed a sarcasm flag somewhere. Or not.
MalevTU134 wrote:leftyboarder wrote:leghorn wrote:I find it funny that the U.S. thinks that it can submit affluent Western Europeans to every sort of indignity from surly border staff on entry to the States to background checks to fingerprinting right down to understaffed passport checks leading to queues hours long at points of entry and still expect those affluent potential Tourists to chose the U.S. as a holiday destination in preference to anywhere else in the world.
I'm dropping out of this conversation as my comments might be mistaken for trolling.
As much as I resent the US move towards more xenophobia, I can't help but be reminded of Western European countries asking for everything from house deeds to 3 month pay slips to marriage certificates to bank account movements (which all infringe on privacy) to give Schengen visas valid for a few months (or even days) to people from the rest of the world including my country - Turkey. So I say maybe Western European countries themselves should look at their own visa policies towards the rest of the world. US might have a bad visa policy and it might be getting worse, but it's still fairer than what the EU has in most cases.
Not so. "Western European" countries do not categorize your opinions (political, religious or otherwise). What we do indeed do is to make sure that visitors from countries with a visa requirement are likely not to come to our countries to stay on tourist visas. For that, they need other type of visas. Countries end up on the visa-required list because of a history or a presumption of a higher-than-acceptable rate of overstays by their citizens. When a country falls below this rate of overstays, it is taken off the list, and its citizens can enter the Schengen area without visa for tourist purposes. No ESTA, no nothing. Just arrive and show you can sustain yourself legally during your stay (proof of funds), and you are welcome to Europe!
StTim wrote:I know I do not need a visa but can use an ESTA - But the USA always makes me feel unwelcome at the border and I have visited many times. It was getting worse year by year.
Whilst this doesn't affect me directly it does show how the US is getting more and more unwelcoming. I was made much more welcome entering China than the USA.
leftyboarder wrote:Honestly, Europe needs to get off its high horse.
VC10er wrote:As an American, I am so embarrassed.
There is just so much personal stuff in someone’s life up on social media that is nobody’s business.
I get it, I watched the 767 fly into the World Trade Center, then watched them both fall with my naked eyes. I lost a good friend. It hurt my city and country. I’m still angry and that day will haunt me for the rest of my life. But there are things that are simply WRONG and prying of this sort into millions of people’s privacy is over the top.
I need to have faith the courts will prevent it.
stratosphere wrote:VC10er wrote:I also lost a friend in the Trade Center attacks and know friends of friends who were lost and I don't give a damn who I offend. I personally would under normal circumstances not want to add anymore layers of issues for anyone from the EU coming into this country. But with all the refugees and open doors that leaders like Angela Merkel of Germany have let in their country and the issues in Sweden maybe we do need to get tight with anyone coming in here. Your countries can feel free to apply the same level of strictness I don't care.As an American, I am so embarrassed.
Maybe we are in agreement here, except I see this as totally irrelevant. A US demand for social media history could apply to a Somali coming from Norway just as much as a Somali coming from ...Ethiopia. It is the same person, so why shouldn't US policy be the same in both cases?But with all the refugees and open doors that leaders like Angela Merkel of Germany have let in their country and the issues in Sweden maybe we do need to get tight with anyone coming in here
leghorn wrote:leftyboarder wrote:Honestly, Europe needs to get off its high horse.
Europe is a Continent and doesn't issue Visas. You need to be more specific.
stratosphere wrote:VC10er wrote:As an American, I am so embarrassed.
There is just so much personal stuff in someone’s life up on social media that is nobody’s business.
I get it, I watched the 767 fly into the World Trade Center, then watched them both fall with my naked eyes. I lost a good friend. It hurt my city and country. I’m still angry and that day will haunt me for the rest of my life. But there are things that are simply WRONG and prying of this sort into millions of people’s privacy is over the top.
I need to have faith the courts will prevent it.
I also lost a friend in the Trade Center attacks and know friends of friends who were lost and I don't give a damn who I offend. I personally would under normal circumstances not want to add anymore layers of issues for anyone from the EU coming into this country. But with all the refugees and open doors that leaders like Angela Merkel of Germany have let in their country and the issues in Sweden maybe we do need to get tight with anyone coming in here. Your countries can feel free to apply the same level of strictness I don't care.