Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Revelation · Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:35 am

Redd wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Redd wrote:
Because people aren't taking the woman at her word and willing to throw the man under the bus sans-proof? Because no man has lost his career/life/family over false rape allegations before......

So you're saying you don't see misogyny in this thread?

Not saying there isn't any, but a lot of men (and an increasing number if woman) are bitter about an automatic assumptuon of guilt with a male party im such an instance. When stories of false accusations have the power to ruin a man's life we really need to tread carefully.

Standing up for a neutral POV and not automatically assuming a man is guilty does not equal misogyny.

Yet we read in this thread:

#3: "one night stand remorse"
#19 "Was I drugged? I may have been drugged. Yeah. I must’ve been. I’m pretty sure. Oh well. *Ruins man’s career."
#21 "I'm going to call BS. I think the pilot would have to be drugged to hit that." (quote of now deleted post)

Didn't see you complaining about misogyny and lack of neutral POV then.

And of course all the "Where's the evidence?" calls as if (a) there was none and (b) there was an obligation to provide such evidence at the time charges are filed.

Now that more details are coming out, it'd be nice if all the people making such calls would recant, but of course they won't.

You see, they have an agenda: rectify the alleged wrongs of feminism against the poor undefended male of the species.

It's easy to go with wrong headed bravado while hiding behind anonymity in the various internet silos of one's choosing.

Once one stick their heads outside one's silos, you get challenged.

Get used to it. We're not going away.

bennett123 · Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:49 am

The whole point is commenting on the basis of the evidence provided.

Initially, there was no evidence beyond her claim.

Perhaps some were a bit quick to assume he was guilty.

Revelation · Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:16 pm

bennett123 wrote:
The whole point is commenting on the basis of the evidence provided.

Initially, there was no evidence beyond her claim.

Perhaps some were a bit quick to assume he was guilty.

Nope, the predominant presumption was that she had "one night stand remorse" and all the "where's the evidence" calls only make sense if one is presuming she has no evidence and is making stuff up.

The usual rabble of overly privileged males chimed in with their perceptions right from the start.

bennett123 · Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:41 pm

Until NEBaNi posted, there was little information supporting her complaint.

You simply assumed that she must have evidence

In any proper court, the accuser must prove their allegation.

Based on initial item simply assuming that he complaint was true is simply prejudice.

bennett123 · Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:41 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Until NEBaNi posted, there was little information supporting her complaint.

You simply assumed that she must have evidence

In any proper court, the accuser must prove their allegation.

Based on initial item simply assuming that her complaint was true is simply prejudice.

Aesma · Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:55 pm

There was a debate initially (and often is in such cases) about the time taken by the victim to report the crime, the effect it can have on evidence gathering, testimonies etc. From the info reported we see that everything considered she did report the rape relatively quickly, however, she didn't report it to people that cared !

Considering the amount of evidence that seem present that shouldn't impact her case, but you have to wonder what laws or attitudes need to change for people that hear a victim describe a sexual assault to call the cops on the spot or drive the victim to the cops.

bennett123 · Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:14 pm

Looking at the linked posted overnight, point 4 is somewhat disturbing.

Revelation · Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:25 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Until NEBaNi posted, there was little information supporting her complaint.

You simply assumed that she must have evidence

In any proper court, the accuser must prove their allegation.

Based on initial item simply assuming that he complaint was true is simply prejudice.

I wasn't assuming the complaint was true!

I was responding to comments such as "one night stand remorse", "pilot would have to be drugged to hit that", etc.

It's the people making the "Where's the evidence?" calls that are the ones that are not waiting for the court to act and casting doubt on the presence of evidence.

Tugger · Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Until NEBaNi posted, there was little information supporting her complaint.

You simply assumed that she must have evidence

In any proper court, the accuser must prove their allegation.

Based on initial item simply assuming that he complaint was true is simply prejudice.

I wasn't assuming the complaint was true!

I was responding to comments such as "one night stand remorse", "pilot would have to be drugged to hit that", etc.

It's the people making the "Where's the evidence?" calls that are the ones that are not waiting for the court to act and casting doubt on the presence of evidence.

I will note that while I was not assuming the complaint was true, I did very much think there was likely evidence to back up the compliant or it would not have been made. That may seem like the same thing but it is not. I did also take umbrage with others dismissing it out of hand or making up things as if it proved something, proved that nothing happened and that the pilot was making the whole thing up. Thinking women just always go around making things up and going through the arduous process of filing charges just to "get at a man because they feel remorse"....

Tugg

NeBaNi · Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:09 pm

Tugger wrote:
Revelation wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Until NEBaNi posted, there was little information supporting her complaint.

You simply assumed that she must have evidence

In any proper court, the accuser must prove their allegation.

Based on initial item simply assuming that he complaint was true is simply prejudice.

I wasn't assuming the complaint was true!

I was responding to comments such as "one night stand remorse", "pilot would have to be drugged to hit that", etc.

It's the people making the "Where's the evidence?" calls that are the ones that are not waiting for the court to act and casting doubt on the presence of evidence.

I will note that while I was not assuming the complaint was true, I did very much think there was likely evidence to back up the compliant or it would not have been made. That may seem like the same thing but it is not. I did also take umbrage with others dismissing it out of hand or making up things as if it proved something, proved that nothing happened and that the pilot was making the whole thing up. Thinking women just always go around making things up and going through the arduous process of filing charges just to "get at a man because they feel remorse"....

Tugg

To bennet123: Just because YOU received information after I posted doesn't mean the information wasn't out there. The Seattle Times article was posted at 10:51am PST yesterday, with the details. Over the course of the day, there were plenty of posters here quick to defend the male pilot, repeatedly say, "let's wait for more information to come out...", and lament about how we didn't have further info, while the information was already out there. If people are so quick to complain about there being no further info, did they think to look before commenting?
Also on a side note, what's up with quoting yourself and essentially resubmitting the post? Isn't that essentially double posting?

bennett123 · Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:33 pm

I tried to edit the post, and it did not work.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:23 pm

c933103 wrote:
Is the way AS handling the incident rather nonoptimal? It seems like they should have cooperate with law enforcement instead of telling her not to talk about it

I don’t think it said that she shouldn’t talk to investigators, I think it said that she shouldn’t talk about the investigation. Probably meaning with other coworkers, etc.

I’m not sure exactly what Alaska airlines can do legally without evidence? If there’s no police report, there’s no physical evidence, and just circumstantial evidence given, their primary recourse would probably be investigating policy violations. It’s up to her to file a police report or take action, and then the airline could act on that legally I’m guessing. Maybe somebody else can step in with more knowledge on that. Regardless, I don’t think it’s as simple as saying Alaska Airlines should’ve fired the pilot who is alleged to have done this.

Now if it comes out that this pilot has had other claims made against him, then perhaps there’s more that they could or should have done. Again, I don’t know legally what they’re able to do.

SheikhDjibouti · Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:01 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
To bennet123: Just because YOU received information after I posted doesn't mean the information wasn't out there. The Seattle Times article was posted at 10:51am PST yesterday, with the details. Over the course of the day, there were plenty of posters here quick to defend the male pilot, repeatedly say, "let's wait for more information to come out...", and lament about how we didn't have further info, while the information was already out there. If people are so quick to complain about there being no further info, did they think to look before commenting?

Various posters who were making a case for not automatically believing the story failed to search this information out before commenting.

Equally, various posters who were certain the woman should be believed also failed to search this information out...... (it clearly would have helped their arguments)

If you are going to be critical of one group (who's views you disagree with), you should also be critical of the remainder, otherwise you are displaying bias.

I suggest you accept that you were the first amongst us here to identify this Seattle Times article, for which you deserve credit.
And conversely, if we were all expected to research this article for ourselves, there was no point in you posting the text of this article.

Your helpful intervention has changed at least one persons attitude towards the issue the discussion, and hopefully many more. Don't be too harsh on Bennet123 and any others who asked where was the evidence? They may have had an agenda that precluded them believing the woman, or they may not. Either way, this useful "evidence" was absent when they made their comments; fortunately it is found now. Time to move on.

flyingcat · Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:35 am

Pure conjecture but it here are two major things that stand out for me.

1. She never reported the incident to police initially but then once she was presented evidence that Alaska compiled she realized it was rape. She was under the impression that reporting it to AS and the union would be enough. Sadly I think her military training is giving her tunnel vision. AS and ALPA are not the authorities she needs to file a police report.

2. I also find it odd that she does not realize or was informed that as an ALPA member Alaska cannot just fire a union pilot. Also the union has both the responsibility of representing her and the captain involved.

spinotter · Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:34 pm

c933103 wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
More details have emerged about this story, from The Seattle Times via the One Mile at a Time blog:
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/03/14/alaska-airlines-pilot-raped/
On June 5, 2017, 39 year old Betty Pina operated a flight with the 50 year old captain to Minneapolis, and they went to the crew hotel together, and met in the executive lounge for drinks
The captain served her a glass of wine, she thought it tasted funny, and after a few sips she couldn’t keep her head up and felt the walls closing in on her — “From there, I don’t remember leaving the concierge room, the elevator ride or walking down the hallway to my room. When I woke up, everything was hazy. I remember seeing a figure, somebody pulling at my right ankle, and rolling over and trying to say ‘No.’ And then, I was out again.”
The next morning she found herself naked in the captain’s bed with vomit, she was racked by confusion and sickness, and didn’t want to lose her 17 year career in aviation, which is why she didn’t initially call 911
On the night of the incident, a flight attendant reported that he observed the captain walking in the hotel hallway with two glasses of wine and a woman who appeared to be in danger; he didn’t feel safe working with the pilot, so he apparently reported it to crew scheduling
The captain’s room was called regarding his fitness to fly, and he admitted that he had been drinking, so the captain and first officer were both taken off duty, and flown back to Seattle as passengers later that day
During that flight, the captain told the first officer “that [she had] been really drunk and had come on to him,” and he tried to persuade her to “get [their] stories straight”
Once back in Seattle, both pilots were questioned over the next two days by the airline and the union; initially she didn’t feel comfortable reporting the rape, but changed her mind after finding a handprint bruise on her left thigh, and other bruising, so she ended up reporting this to her union two days after the assault
The airline placed her on paid leave starting in June, telling her not to talk about the investigation
In early July she once again detailed this to a lawyer who was hired by the airline to investigate the incident, primarily to see if the pilots had been drinking within 10 hours of departure (and therefore should be disciplined), and not to actually investigate the rape
In August she was told that a review of the hotel’s security footage showed the captain forcibly kissing her in the elevator, and that she was incapacitated, and that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and she was putting up a fight
In December she was finally told she’d soon be able to return to work, and her crew chief asked her why she didn’t press charges; she was shocked by this, because until that moment she assumed that telling the company and supervisor was enough
She was returned to active duty in January

It's pretty damning if true, I'm shocked that she was asked to keep quiet about the investigation.

These are details that can be found out to support the charges from the victim unlike certain posters above that assumed these evidences would not exists
-----
Is the way AS handling the incident rather nonoptimal? It seems like they should have cooperate with law enforcement instead of telling her not to talk about it

I think it's important for each person going into the evening to speak up about their expectations and limits, and that well before any alcohol or other stimulants are ingested. This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

Tugger · Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:55 pm

spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

What the hell are you talking about? You are making ridiculous arguments out of thin air, to what point I cannot figure out.

Tugg

spinotter · Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:58 pm

Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

What the hell are you talking about? You are making ridiculous arguments out of thin air, to what point I cannot figure out.

Tugg

Then you are limited in your comprehension, or at least what you can admit. Look, did he give her a drug? She thinks so, but it could be rationalization. She did not report the rape immediately. What does that look like to you? She goes out drinking with a like-minded male and what does she expect to happen? Is she a total virgin? Please.

Tugger · Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:36 pm

spinotter wrote:
Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

What the hell are you talking about? You are making ridiculous arguments out of thin air, to what point I cannot figure out.

Tugg

Then you are limited in your comprehension, or at least what you can admit. Look, did he give her a drug? She thinks so, but it could be rationalization. She did not report the rape immediately. What does that look like to you? She goes out drinking with a like-minded male and what does she expect to happen? Is she a total virgin? Please.

Wow, you are amazing. You fully know my "comprehension" and have complete insight into exactly what happened that night.

I don't know about you but when I have gone out with other women I work with and we have a drink I do not think we are about to or will get it on later that evening. My best friend is a captain and has a drink all the time at the hotel with others from the crew and has never expected if a woman has a glass of wine with him she's bound to have a "good time" later with him.

And actually I guess I do know something about you now after that post. You appear to very much believe that if a woman does have a glass of wine with you that she must obviously expect that she is going to have sex, so it is OK to push for the maybe even force it (I mean she had WINE! ).

Seriously, that is how you are coming across. (But I know now that my comprehension is limited so please accept my sincere apologies for my limited faculties).

As to not reporting the rape immediately... what does that look like to me? Like the vast majority of rapes in the world. It's partially (at least) a result of idiots thinking (and saying/arguing) the woman must/should have "wanted/expected sex" for whatever event occurred. Whether it was:

"She was at a party drinking, what did she expect?"
"Did you she what she was wearing, what did she expect?"
"Her? No way, no one would have sex with her. She's obviously lying."
"She was talking to him all night, she lead him on, what did she expect?"
"She's been with a bunch of guys so obviously loves sex and she has a problem now?"
"She was stupid for being alone there, that's why it happened."

There's many more beauties out there.

Tugg

bennett123 · Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:00 pm

If this comes to court, hopefully Spinotter will NOT be on the Jury.

seahawk · Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:28 pm

Still strange that she sues the airline before pressing charges against the pilot. It is even more strange that the union reps. did not sent her to the police to press charges, because if she would do so, the whole investigation becomes easier for the airline. Getting the security camera footage is much easier and faster for the police, than for the airline, the same goes for questioning witnesses. And the airline can act much quicker against the pilot with a police investigation going on and to fire him is much easier when he has been convicted.

The union representatives have made the bigger mistakes imho, as they should have advised her to press charges. The employer is bound to confidentiality in such cases.

DLFREEBIRD · Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:47 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Hard to imagine how so many sexual assaults go unreported after reading the comments here.

lot of misogynistic posts on this thread. Sadly, what i have learned on this board is not to point out the obvious, those posters just double down.

usflyer msp · Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:51 pm

I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

scbriml · Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:57 pm

spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

With an attitude like this, is it any wonder that some women think all men are rapists? :banghead:

I mean, what was the bitch doing out of the kitchen anyway, right? :sarcastic:

Tugger · Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:22 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

I honestly believe that no woman actually, really wants to go through the process of reporting a crime to the police, having to get a vaginal exam, validate every point of the event and provide supporting evidence etc. They just want the bastard punished. I think that is exactly the same way most of us are. I don't ever want to have to go through any kind of process even remotely similar to that. I think most of us sometimes decide to "turn the other cheek" because not doing so will create so much hassle and headache and misery and wasted time and exposure that we don't want to deal with it.

Tugg

Revelation · Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:40 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

In the great scheme of things, does it matter which path she chose to peruse?

Maybe being ex-military she thought the best thing to do was to rely on the organization to do the investigation without taking it to civilian authorities.

Maybe she thought she was doing the co-worker something of a favor by keeping it in-house instead of getting him a criminal record.

usflyer msp · Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:44 pm

Tugger wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

I honestly believe that no woman actually, really wants to go through the process of reporting a crime to the police, having to get a vaginal exam, validate every point of the event and provide supporting evidence etc. They just want the bastard punished. I think that is exactly the same way most of us are. I don't ever want to have to go through any kind of process even remotely similar to that. I think most of us sometimes decide to "turn the other cheek" because not doing so will create so much hassle and headache and misery and wasted time and exposure that we don't want to deal with it.

Tugg

Can we please stop infantalizing women? Yes, life is hard sometimes but if someone wants justice - they have to do their part .

usflyer msp · Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

In the great scheme of things, does it matter which path she chose to peruse?

Maybe being ex-military she thought the best thing to do was to rely on the organization to do the investigation without taking it to civilian authorities.

Maybe she thought she was doing the co-worker something of a favor by keeping it in-house instead of getting him a criminal record.

It says right in the article that she thought all she had to do was report it to the company in order for charges to be laid.

From the Seattle TImes:
" He also asked her: “Betty, let me ask you this, why didn’t you press charges?” Pina recalled.

“And until that moment, I thought telling my company and my supervisor is all I needed to do,” Pina said. “I was shocked when he said that.”

Tugger · Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:02 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

I honestly believe that no woman actually, really wants to go through the process of reporting a crime to the police, having to get a vaginal exam, validate every point of the event and provide supporting evidence etc. They just want the bastard punished. I think that is exactly the same way most of us are. I don't ever want to have to go through any kind of process even remotely similar to that. I think most of us sometimes decide to "turn the other cheek" because not doing so will create so much hassle and headache and misery and wasted time and exposure that we don't want to deal with it.

Tugg

Can we please stop infantalizing women? Yes, life is hard sometimes but if someone wants justice - they have to do their part .

Infantalizing? I am not. I merely pointed out that doing such things can be hard and that difficulty is dissuading. The same goes for guys not reporting abuse sexual or otherwise. Men held that for years, decades even before reporting it.

And by the way, its not "they have to do their part". It more accurately "We have to do our part". You can blame others all you want for failing to something, you have no real control over what someone else will do. But you do have control over what you do, and so what can you do to improve the situation and make it easier for women (or men) to report rape and sexual abuse? (And I don't mean believe and accept as fact any accusation.)

Tugg

Aesma · Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:49 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

I find your remark quite curious, isn't the US military (not saying it's better elsewhere) well known for burying such stories, even punishing the victims, and certainly never involve civil authorities in such matters ?

Revelation · Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:32 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Revelation wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I find it quite curious that 39 yo military veteran does not know that she has to contact the police to press charges and the company or union cannot do it for her...

In the great scheme of things, does it matter which path she chose to peruse?

Maybe being ex-military she thought the best thing to do was to rely on the organization to do the investigation without taking it to civilian authorities.

Maybe she thought she was doing the co-worker something of a favor by keeping it in-house instead of getting him a criminal record.

It says right in the article that she thought all she had to do was report it to the company in order for charges to be laid.

From the Seattle TImes:
" He also asked her: “Betty, let me ask you this, why didn’t you press charges?” Pina recalled.

“And until that moment, I thought telling my company and my supervisor is all I needed to do,” Pina said. “I was shocked when he said that.”

I'm trying to understand whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Your posts on this issue suggests you feel she wasn't willing to "do her part".

Is that where you're going?

Yet the news article you quote says she thought she did do her part.

You post suggested that we're "infantalizing women".

Where does gender come into this? Males that get sexually assaulted can take decades to report crimes too.

It takes courage to report sexual assault for many reasons, including the evidence we see here how the victim's behavior immediately gets attacked.

Let's just see how this one plays out.

Revelation · Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Now, similar content to earlier ST/blog content is widely reported:

Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/03/1 ... grows.html
ABC: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/alaska-a ... d=53785721
WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr- ... he-airline
NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/trav ... -rape.html

Some outlets are naming the captain (his name is in the lawsuit but he is not being sued) others are not naming him (and I chose to not).

As for why sue AS, Fox says:

Further, the lawsuit charges that not only do (ed: the captain's) actions as the supervising officer on the flight "constitute violations of Washington Laws Against Discrimination, sexual assault and negligence" but also that Alaska Airlines is liable for his actions.

It's pretty clear from her statements in the above articles that by suing the airline and going to press she's trying to get the matter addressed as broadly as possible.

I find it interesting to compare this action to making it a criminal action.

In the criminal action it's likely the captain would find himself in a lot of trouble, but the employer would not. By making it about the employer's supervision of the captain she makes it a broader issue.

Thing is, it might be harder to convince a jury that the employer is liable for the employee's actions.

I think the most likely outcome is an out-of-court settlement.

spinotter · Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

With an attitude like this, is it any wonder that some women think all men are rapists?

I mean, what was the bitch doing out of the kitchen anyway, right?

No. What was she looking for that night? If you've been on as many dates as I have, you know that there is always some question how far things should or can go. We all need some affirmation and loving, and often it gets physical and we are surprised, for good or for bad. This is not a clear case of rape, and I would vote not guilty for the guy. Meanwhile poor lady is in permanent seclusion from the world. Get thee to a nunnery.

slider · Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
..

In the great scheme of things, does it matter which path she chose to peruse?
.

Well, yeah, in material terms, it does. And therein lies the crux here--he accused has had his name now broadly publicly splashed all over the place. Whether he's exonerated or not--in the legal realm--is almost irrelevant now. His career is shot, reputation blown completely, and life shattered.

Her life may also be shattered. I would think given her bio and background that she understands that. No one wins here. And she has little to gain by coming forward at this point, because her own career and life is affected either way and she too risks her reputation in turn. So for her sake, I should think and assume there's some credibility and substance (as well as evidence?) behind the allegation.

And for all the accusations of misogyny, there's plenty of misandry to go around. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Tugger · Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:12 pm

spinotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

With an attitude like this, is it any wonder that some women think all men are rapists?

I mean, what was the bitch doing out of the kitchen anyway, right?

No. What was she looking for that night? If you've been on as many dates as I have, you know that there is always some question how far things should or can go. We all need some affirmation and loving, and often it gets physical and we are surprised, for good or for bad. This is not a clear case of rape, and I would vote not guilty for the guy. Meanwhile poor lady is in permanent seclusion from the world. Get thee to a nunnery.

I think one huge error you are making is thinking this is a "date" or a dating situation in any way. It's not. This was an overnight, it was an after work drink at most. I don't she (or should he have) any further expectation. Crew get together during their overnight, it is a normal occurrence (obviously not everyone all the time does).and while yes of course "things will happen" with people that want it, it is not a requirement and should never be an expectation.

It feels like its personal to you and that you are not seeing past something that we here are not aware of. While it has been decades now since I was dating I do remember the feeling where obviously the person I was with had different intents for an evening than I had gone into the evening with.

Tugg

scbriml · Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:00 pm

spinotter wrote:
This is not a clear case of rape, and I would vote not guilty for the guy.

So you've already tried him, heard all the evidence and acquitted him? :scratchchin:

It's OK, I know you haven't because you decided he'd done nothing wrong since you opened the thread.

Revelation · Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:07 pm

slider wrote:
Revelation wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
..

In the great scheme of things, does it matter which path she chose to peruse?
.

Well, yeah, in material terms, it does. And therein lies the crux here--he accused has had his name now broadly publicly splashed all over the place. Whether he's exonerated or not--in the legal realm--is almost irrelevant now. His career is shot, reputation blown completely, and life shattered.

Right, but in the great scheme of things the reputations get damaged either way, if she pressed a criminal claim or a civil claim.

FAA and TSA take an interest in criminal actions, especially those involving alcohol.

Seems to me what she wanted most of all was him to leave the airline.

The WaPo article ends with:

Pina returned to active duty in January. She and her attorneys served the airlines with a legal complaint detailing her allegations in mid-February, largely relying on official summaries of Pina’s formal statements to investigators. The airline didn’t take any corrective action, the lawyers said, so they formally filed suit on Wednesday in King County Superior Court, seeking damages in an amount to be determined at trial.

She still fears she might be forced to fly with the captain again and believes he remains a threat to other employees.

“I’m infuriated that he’s still working there,” Pina told the Times.

Seems to me if his lawyers approached her lawyers and he agreed to leave the airline and take some counseling regarding his behavior they could have put all of this into an NDA agreement and this whole thing could have gone away.

Too late for that now.

seahawk · Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
Now, similar content to earlier ST/blog content is widely reported:

Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/03/1 ... grows.html
ABC: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/alaska-a ... d=53785721
WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr- ... he-airline
NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/trav ... -rape.html

Some outlets are naming the captain (his name is in the lawsuit but he is not being sued) others are not naming him (and I chose to not).

As for why sue AS, Fox says:

Further, the lawsuit charges that not only do (ed: the captain's) actions as the supervising officer on the flight "constitute violations of Washington Laws Against Discrimination, sexual assault and negligence" but also that Alaska Airlines is liable for his actions.

It's pretty clear from her statements in the above articles that by suing the airline and going to press she's trying to get the matter addressed as broadly as possible.

I find it interesting to compare this action to making it a criminal action.

In the criminal action it's likely the captain would find himself in a lot of trouble, but the employer would not. By making it about the employer's supervision of the captain she makes it a broader issue.

Thing is, it might be harder to convince a jury that the employer is liable for the employee's actions.

I think the most likely outcome is an out-of-court settlement.

I think the simple answer is money. If she would have gone the conventional route, the investigation would have been faster, the airline could have acted faster and would have settled the whole process earlier. But suing the pilot would probably bring much less than an out of court settlement with the airline. Should there be hints that the airline knew about the problems of the pilot before the incident, I am fully supporting her though.

Revelation · Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:44 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think the simple answer is money. If she would have gone the conventional route, the investigation would have been faster, the airline could have acted faster and would have settled the whole process earlier. But suing the pilot would probably bring much less than an out of court settlement with the airline. Should there be hints that the airline knew about the problems of the pilot before the incident, I am fully supporting her though.

Thing is, if she wanted the most money, she could have done both:
a) use the conventional route to prove the pilot's guilt, then:
b) sue the airline for negligence in allowing it to happen

The airline would have next to no option but give her what she wanted if the courts proved he was guilty, and this would have been done by the government's investigators free of charge rather than her having to have her own lawyers and investigators.

coolian2 · Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:09 pm

This forum will go to the ends of the earth to prosecute a politician but given it's a.net's little darling Alaska, let misogyny ring!

NeBaNi · Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:

With an attitude like this, is it any wonder that some women think all men are rapists?

I mean, what was the bitch doing out of the kitchen anyway, right?

No. What was she looking for that night? If you've been on as many dates as I have, you know that there is always some question how far things should or can go. We all need some affirmation and loving, and often it gets physical and we are surprised, for good or for bad. This is not a clear case of rape, and I would vote not guilty for the guy. Meanwhile poor lady is in permanent seclusion from the world. Get thee to a nunnery.

I think one huge error you are making is thinking this is a "date" or a dating situation in any way. It's not. This was an overnight, it was an after work drink at most. I don't she (or should he have) any further expectation. Crew get together during their overnight, it is a normal occurrence (obviously not everyone all the time does).and while yes of course "things will happen" with people that want it, it is not a requirement and should never be an expectation.

It feels like its personal to you and that you are not seeing past something that we here are not aware of. While it has been decades now since I was dating I do remember the feeling where obviously the person I was with had different intents for an evening than I had gone into the evening with.

Tugg

Exactly, I've had after work drinks with colleagues plenty of times, and not once did either party think it was a date or that it would lead to sex. This is also completely ignoring the fact that she was drugged. Date or not (and this incident was certainly not), what kind or person drugs someone to sleep with them? That's messed up.

stratosphere · Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:15 am

scbriml wrote:
spinotter wrote:
This woman shouts self-loathing and lack of self-esteem. She couldn't have one nice sexual evening for enjoyment? In a purgatory of suffering, and what is the use of that for anyone?

With an attitude like this, is it any wonder that some women think all men are rapists?

I mean, what was the bitch doing out of the kitchen anyway, right?

The bad part of this is that there are plenty of examples of women who have ruined the lives of men too who were not guilty. I am not saying what this women said was false but let the justice system play out before we hang this dude. If you remember the Duke lacrosse guys and of course Rev Al Sharptons favorite Tawana Browley were guilty too before they were exonerated.

aerorobnz · Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:35 am

The burden of proof/evidence must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt for any crime, sex crimes included - the overemotional snowflakes that automatically take sides before the court case would gladly convict an innocent person for the sake of feeling good about supporting a victim and that is not how the rule of law works in a free and democratic country (except France and Scotland and a few others I think). Every attack must be investigated fully and taken seriously, however, She as a former soldier fought for that freedom/right of every man, woman and child in a court of law to be considered innocent until proven guilty, and provided she has shown the prosecutor this beyond reasonable doubt she will likely get a conviction. If he is guilty I hope he goes down, but if he isn't guilty then this is a cynical attack that could destroy his life. Justice must be served for both parties - it is the job of the judge/law to be even-handed and impartial until the end of legal proceedings.

seahawk · Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:05 am

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think the simple answer is money. If she would have gone the conventional route, the investigation would have been faster, the airline could have acted faster and would have settled the whole process earlier. But suing the pilot would probably bring much less than an out of court settlement with the airline. Should there be hints that the airline knew about the problems of the pilot before the incident, I am fully supporting her though.

Thing is, if she wanted the most money, she could have done both:
a) use the conventional route to prove the pilot's guilt, then:
b) sue the airline for negligence in allowing it to happen

The airline would have next to no option but give her what she wanted if the courts proved he was guilty, and this would have been done by the government's investigators free of charge rather than her having to have her own lawyers and investigators.

I am not sure about this, because a case against him would have shown if there were previous incidents or not. If no previous incidents are found in the process, her case against the airline would be in a weaker position. Now the airline would need to proof there were no previous cases, but it is next to impossible for them. This case could have serious impact on how co-operations need to handle allegations of sexual misconduct, but this could be good.

Aesma · Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:35 am

aerorobnz wrote:
The burden of proof/evidence must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt for any crime, sex crimes included - the overemotional snowflakes that automatically take sides before the court case would gladly convict an innocent person for the sake of feeling good about supporting a victim and that is not how the rule of law works in a free and democratic country (except France

I'm not sure what you mean. We have innocent until proven guilty in France too, and rules for what is and isn't evidence. In the US you have put people to death with the only evidence being an eyewitness' testimony !

aerorobnz · Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:20 pm

Aesma wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
The burden of proof/evidence must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt for any crime, sex crimes included - the overemotional snowflakes that automatically take sides before the court case would gladly convict an innocent person for the sake of feeling good about supporting a victim and that is not how the rule of law works in a free and democratic country (except France

I'm not sure what you mean. We have innocent until proven guilty in France too, and rules for what is and isn't evidence. In the US you have put people to death with the only evidence being an eyewitness' testimony !

Was referring to the presumption of innocence being somewhat different in some countries. I actually just read some more, which suggests that as far as France is concerned it is a popular misconception, so I stand corrected

Kno · Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:44 am

Really disappointed in A.net here.

A lot of misogyny in this thread - I hope most of you don't have daughters.

I can't believe how blind some people can be.

Redd · Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:36 am

Kno wrote:
Really disappointed in A.net here.

A lot of misogyny in this thread - I hope most of you don't have daughters.

I can't believe how blind some people can be.

Studies from the 1970's to current times on false accusations of rape put the number anywhere between 1.5% to 91%. So in other words we really have no idea how high the number is, but we do know that many innocent men have been locked away over false rape accusations. The women who do it know they can get away with it, and often when the truth comes out face no consequences.

If someone is not ready to throw a man under the wheels of a bus without sufficient evidence, please tell me how is the misogyny? People like you would fit right it with Stalinist era kangaroo courts where an accusation = conviction.

Revelation · Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:23 pm

Redd wrote:
Studies from the 1970's to current times on false accusations of rape put the number anywhere between 1.5% to 91%. So in other words we really have no idea how high the number is, but we do know that many innocent men have been locked away over false rape accusations. The women who do it know they can get away with it, and often when the truth comes out face no consequences.

Now share the stats where rape is committed and either (a) unreported or (b) un-prosecuted or (c) guilty assailant goes free.

Most of the women I know have stories about how they were sexually assaulted or raped and never reported it.

WIederling · Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
Most of the women I know have stories about how they were sexually assaulted or raped and never reported it.

That is three different statistics potentially unconnected / not overlapping even.

1. Accusations of rape/sex.assault placed in public ( either press or judicial system ) and its "real" rate of false accusations.
losts of false witness sticks and only comes to light after several difficult years in prison. o early pardon as inmate does not repent :-(

2. Factual rape / sex assault being made public ( either press or judicial system ) i.e. effected rape vs reported rape

3. what acts are seen as rape, sex.assault, "wrong touching" ( varies over judicial systems and personal viewpoint.)

funny side note: I am male, not much in for handshaking or "frivolous" touching. then there are people around that
have to touch what they talk to. imagine the bandwidth of judgement if this were a female/male combo.
co-pupil in school back when .. had to nearly touch noses when talking with someone. Imagine me back stepping
through the conversation. :-)

WIederling · Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:03 pm

on short notice for Germany:
>75% of rape cases brought forward do not result in a conviction.

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