bagoldex
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Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:16 pm

More insanity from Trump...

At Pennsylvania rally, Trump again calls for the death penalty for drug dealers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... b8d0b39384
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:45 pm

It’ll put a stop to the recidivism of that particularly insidious parasite and reduce prison populations.

But, we do capital punishment wrong here. It’s ineffective as any sort of deterrent because it takes too long to go from sentencing to execution and, I do feel it is not fairly applied across our justice system.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:46 pm

Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...

In all honesty, there are worse things that merit the death penalty (mass shootings?), but somehow Herr Trump is not eager to put some very fine people through that.

I'd be wary of his enthusiasm for death penalty for drug dealers. Let's not forget who, in his mind, is the image of a drug dealer. HINT: their ancestry hails from all the land on the other side of the Rio Grande.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:48 pm

So the Philippine solution, there is a madman at the helm also: Rodrigo Duterte. He let over 8.000 people be killed by the death squads. So Trump needs to get a move on to be the biggest in this as well.
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fr8mech
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:54 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


Because, the way we do the death penalty has absolutely no deterrent value. I suspect the average time from sentencing to execution is in excess of 15 years. Some death penalty.

By the way, what Trump would want, and could get passed, would only apply to federal level crimes. I suspect most drug dealers operate at local level.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So the Philippine solution, there is a madman at the helm also: Rodrigo Duterte. He let over 8.000 people be killed by the death squads. So Trump needs to get a move on to be the biggest in this as well.


Yeah, trump is a big duterte fan.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:38 pm

When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.
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Siren
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:55 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


You only deserve to be charged with murder if you've actually killed someone. You can't just redefine murder as "taking action which may possibly kill someone"... that's opening up a Pandora's box if I've ever heard it. But with Herr Trump and his cabal, laws are like ice cream: easily melted. A conviction on murder charges for somebody who has not been proven to kill anyone, but merely distributed a substance for profit opens up all sorts of laws to 'redefinitions' and that, my friends, would trigger a gross disrespect of the rule of law among anyone with the intellectual capacity to realize that people are being charged and punished for killing people when they did no such thing. This is a mess waiting to happen...
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Brick
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:00 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


The death penalty is not supposed to be a deterrent. It is a punishment.
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bagoldex
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:33 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


Murder? That seems a bit much. The drug user generally knows the risks. If they die, then they did so through their own conscious and presumably informed choice.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Most of the drug deaths in the US are from people addicted first to legitimate opiate drugs oversold and marketed as safe. I could perhaps agree that a few dozen pharmacy CEOs being executed might encourage the rest. (Voltaire deserves the credit, he was talking about British admirals)
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WIederling
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:34 pm

Brick wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


The death penalty is not supposed to be a deterrent. It is a punishment.


That sounds like "room to let".
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:45 pm

Brick wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


The death penalty is not supposed to be a deterrent. It is a punishment.


why? Normally the justice system has 3 objectives:
1. punishment
2. deterrent
3. rehabilitation

The death penalty doesn't work for the 3rd objective of course, but now you say it doesn't even work for the 2nd? You are right about that, but many use it as an argument for the death penalty.
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Siren wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


You only deserve to be charged with murder if you've actually killed someone. You can't just redefine murder as "taking action which may possibly kill someone"... that's opening up a Pandora's box if I've ever heard it. But with Herr Trump and his cabal, laws are like ice cream: easily melted. A conviction on murder charges for somebody who has not been proven to kill anyone, but merely distributed a substance for profit opens up all sorts of laws to 'redefinitions' and that, my friends, would trigger a gross disrespect of the rule of law among anyone with the intellectual capacity to realize that people are being charged and punished for killing people when they did no such thing. This is a mess waiting to happen...


When you have a substance as deadly as Fentynal which has just sickened first responders, fireman and police here and can be fatal just coming into contact with it, this is a new ball game, they know it, they do not care, they are killers of people. When one sets a bomb to intentionally kill, he, or they are charged with murder. There is a new reality now, these people cannot plead ignorance of the deadly nature of their product, they know they are killing people. They are therfore murderers, not just drug dealers. What is the difference, a gun, a deadly drug ? I say it is intentional, therfore not Manslaughter, nor an accident.
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm

bagoldex wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


Murder? That seems a bit much. The drug user generally knows the risks. If they die, then they did so through their own conscious and presumably informed choice.


Read my words below, just as the drug dealer intentionally sells a deadly drug well informed and thousands of times proved, he does it well informed and by his own choice. Not a whit of difference.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm

Intentional means what intentional means, not whatever the Red Queen thinks it means. Particularly dangerous substances can carry criminal endangerment penalties. (Not sure of the legal language).
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm

bagoldex wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


Murder? That seems a bit much. The drug user generally knows the risks. If they die, then they did so through their own conscious and presumably informed choice.


Read my words below, just as the drug dealer intentionally sells a deadly drug well informed and thousands of times proved, he does it well informed and by his own choice. Not a whit of difference.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
drew777
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:01 pm

Maybe for big time drug traffickers. Executing dealers would be a very slippery slope. Are you going to execute firearms dealers who sold a gun used in a murder? If the gun dealer failed to 100% verify that the buyer had no criminal intent...
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:13 pm

drew777 wrote:
Maybe for big time drug traffickers. Executing dealers would be a very slippery slope. Are you going to execute firearms dealers who sold a gun used in a murder? If the gun dealer failed to 100% verify that the buyer had no criminal intent...


In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?
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TWA772LR
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:22 pm

fr8mech wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


Because, the way we do the death penalty has absolutely no deterrent value. I suspect the average time from sentencing to execution is in excess of 15 years. Some death penalty.

By the way, what Trump would want, and could get passed, would only apply to federal level crimes. I suspect most drug dealers operate at local level.

Not in Texas. We've broken international laws by executing foreign nationals before, and we did start a program a few years ago where the prisoner waited a lot less to be executed.
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drew777
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:27 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
drew777 wrote:
Maybe for big time drug traffickers. Executing dealers would be a very slippery slope. Are you going to execute firearms dealers who sold a gun used in a murder? If the gun dealer failed to 100% verify that the buyer had no criminal intent...


In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?


Did they administer the poison? I'm not pro-heroin but executing street level dealers? How about we take on the cartels and drug companies instead.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:27 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
drew777 wrote:
Maybe for big time drug traffickers. Executing dealers would be a very slippery slope. Are you going to execute firearms dealers who sold a gun used in a murder? If the gun dealer failed to 100% verify that the buyer had no criminal intent...


In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?


The person with the drug habit made the choice to "poison" themselves though.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:39 pm

bagoldex wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
drew777 wrote:
Maybe for big time drug traffickers. Executing dealers would be a very slippery slope. Are you going to execute firearms dealers who sold a gun used in a murder? If the gun dealer failed to 100% verify that the buyer had no criminal intent...


In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?


The person with the drug habit made the choice to "poison" themselves though.


Who added the Fentynal, the addict? Who cut the product with a deadly poison to make more money, the addict? You are saying the addict is of sound mind and body. I think not, I find it rather a silly idea.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:51 pm

I kind of like the idea but I also think we should legalize all drugs so it's moot.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:32 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.

Are you aware of all the possible loopholes that could be opened if this is enacted? To meet the definition of murder, you must have intentionally placed something without the other person knowing about it with the end result of a death.

Euthanasia, for example, can be considered illegal if this happens (a doctor authorizes a prescription for a drug to provoke death...so that doctor is now on the hook for murder). A pharmaceutical company can be sued for creating a medicine that can cause serious side effects (to the point that they can cause death).

Sorry...but it's not like there's not enough awareness of what drugs do. If you choose to buy drugs, the drug dealer is only just that: a dealer. If you don't have the will to stop and reflect, no law will stop or deter drug dealings. And this is not a "laws don't work so don't bother" argument; it's about understanding the consequences of such a law if it were passed.

Again, no one is being forced against their will to use drugs. Manslaughter? Yes. Murder? Nope. If that's the case, then gun manufacturers are on the hook every time there's a mass shooting (or if we're gonna get technical, bullet manufacturers since those are the ones that cause the damage). No one forces a mass shooter to get a gun...
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Jalap
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:14 am

WarRI1 wrote:
In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?

Most drug users don't kill themselves in the process. Most drug users are recreational users who have their lives perfectly in order.
The harsher your war on drugs, the more the recreational users are exposed to dealers who care nothing for life.
And the harsher your war on drugs, the more profit there'll be in trafficking and selling drugs.

If you want to control the drug problem, legalize & regulate it all. And use the tax income to help the problematic users.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:47 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
In this case, you poison someone intentionally with a deadly poison, is that not murder?

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.

Are you aware of all the possible loopholes that could be opened if this is enacted? To meet the definition of murder, you must have intentionally placed something without the other person knowing about it with the end result of a death.

Euthanasia, for example, can be considered illegal if this happens (a doctor authorizes a prescription for a drug to provoke death...so that doctor is now on the hook for murder). A pharmaceutical company can be sued for creating a medicine that can cause serious side effects (to the point that they can cause death).

Sorry...but it's not like there's not enough awareness of what drugs do. If you choose to buy drugs, the drug dealer is only just that: a dealer. If you don't have the will to stop and reflect, no law will stop or deter drug dealings. And this is not a "laws don't work so don't bother" argument; it's about understanding the consequences of such a law if it were passed.

Again, no one is being forced against their will to use drugs. Manslaughter? Yes. Murder? Nope. If that's the case, then gun manufacturers are on the hook every time there's a mass shooting (or if we're gonna get technical, bullet manufacturers since those are the ones that cause the damage). No one forces a mass shooter to get a gun...




We shall see where this goes, as I said, our state is looking at it right now. I am sure others are too. Of course we do not have a real death penalty in our state, so that renders all the weeping and gnashing of teeth moot. It would be no more than a life sentence here. I support it, and I am sure I am not alone. A law tailored to this problem with such an outcome as Life maybe just the thing to give one pause before dealing with death resulting. Right now, there really is no teeth to deter these animals.
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BartSimpson
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:38 am

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


Tough times ahead for the tobacco industrry...

I am 100 % against death penalty, this includes drug dealing, too. For me, it looks like the death sentence is nothing more than revenge - and that has no place in a just and functional judical system.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:47 am

Brick wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


The death penalty is not supposed to be a deterrent. It is a punishment.


It is called correction system, not punishment system. Being dead also means your punishment is over.....

einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes. Definitely. The death penalty will serve as deterrent. That's why people don't kill people...oh wait...


Capital punishment is a religion, not much point to argue with the fans of state sponsored murder.

fr8mech wrote:
It’ll put a stop to the recidivism of that particularly insidious parasite and reduce prison populations.


There is a myriad of things you can do to keep the recidivism rate low, that is why Norway has 20% and you have over 75% https://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/ ... lcome.aspx ... and that is after locking up 10% of your people. I´d be surprised if much of what Norways does to accomplish that would meet with your approval: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/a ... 20,00.html

Because, the way we do the death penalty has absolutely no deterrent value. I suspect the average time from sentencing to execution is in excess of 15 years. Some death penalty.


The disgust for due process of law among Trump and his fellowship does have near criminal levels.

best regards
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c933103
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:08 am

In most part of Asia, consumption of drug including everything from Marijuana and on are considered allroundedly unacceptable in all circumstances[, that, in some situation, because of profound effect they have on the society, could be seen as even worse than murder,] and that's why many societies support enforcing heavy punishment on drug users and also why there are still fare number of support on Duterte even after thousands have been killed. But I don't think it is a view that would be shared by American population?
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:27 am

c933103 wrote:
In most part of Asia, consumption of drug including everything from Marijuana and on are considered allroundedly unacceptable in all circumstances[, that, in some situation, because of profound effect they have on the society, could be seen as even worse than murder,] and that's why many societies support enforcing heavy punishment on drug users and also why there are still fare number of support on Duterte even after thousands have been killed. But I don't think it is a view that would be shared by American population?


This is also a view that is not shared by non-Americans.

How many of the thousands that have been killed by the Duterte death quads have received a trial first (let alone a proper one) - how many were innocent victims?
 
WIederling
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:07 am

WarRI1 wrote:
... When you have a substance as deadly as Fentynal which has just sickened first responders, fireman and police here and can be fatal just coming into contact with ...


It is "Fentanyl".

Aren't we going a bit over the top a here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl

It is interesting to watch that one substance abuse after another is paraded as the next "ultimate killer" substance.
Get a grip on the proportions ( like comparing to the prevalence of gun death )!
( if you can't show a tenfold deathrate the stuff must be harmless :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:57 am

fr8mech wrote:
Because, the way we do the death penalty has absolutely no deterrent value. I suspect the average time from sentencing to execution is in excess of 15 years. Some death penalty.


Still too short to fix all judicial errors.
Convictions to the death penalty seem to have the highest false positive rate thinkable.

IMU the death penalty is demanded to make wrong judgments effective. no recourse due to death of the accused.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:59 am

WIederling wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Because, the way we do the death penalty has absolutely no deterrent value. I suspect the average time from sentencing to execution is in excess of 15 years. Some death penalty.


Still too short to fix all judicial errors.
Convictions to the death penalty seem to have the highest false positive rate thinkable.


and no one is going after the Judge and Jury after they have murdered an innocent. Capital punishment is basically a country admitting they don´t care about either due process nor state of law.

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777222LR
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:33 am

I want to chime in on this: Addiction runs in my family, and I'm also in recovery. (Alcohol, Xanax) Why was an I addict? Well, it's a long story, but in short, confusion about sexuality, abusive childhood, anxiety, depression. I've been sober for 6 years now. The most influential person in my recovery was another recovered addict, who happened to be a former heroin addict and dealer. He was one of my mentors through the early stages of recovery. The most influential thing he said to me was, "You're like and ATM. You can give, give, give, but at some point, you have to replenish." I still remember that day, and why he said that to me, and when I have rough days, I look back on that day. Over the past six years, I've become very successful in my profession. Had we given him the death penalty, I would not have that. Had he not recovered through mental health, I might not be here. Had I not recovered through mental health and help, I probably would have died. My point is, "Death Penalty" is such an uninformed solution. Many of us do not get caught up in this because, "Hey, drugs are fun!" More so, there are deep seated issues that need to be addressed that may be traumatic, that we mask with a drug, because we have not been given the tools to cope.

Just a thought to consider...Trumps solution requires no thought. "Just kill 'em."
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:53 am

Good for you 777222LR, inspiring story, thank you for sharing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mmo
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:09 am

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


After spending most of my formative years growing up in RI, that state never ceases to amaze me! Their official state motto is "Hope". It should be "it's who you know, not what you know"! I was so glad when I left there and went to college a long way away and other than for short visits, weddings and funerals, the less time I spend there the better I feel.

Taking your position is it safe to extrapolate your feelings about someone who kills someone in a car accident? After all, they killed someone. Do they deserve to be charged with murder not manslaughter?
Taking it one step further, a drunk driver does the same thing, Murder? Someone intentionally runs a red light...Murder? A physician makes a mistake and a patient dies....murder? A pilot is the PIC and there is a plane crash, there are deaths as a result of that. Murder???

There is no end to the thought process you are advocating. First of all, after living around the world, it's an embarrassment to tell people you are from the US, the marvels of having dual citizenship!! The US is 5th in executions, beat by China (Leader), Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Not a very great club to claim membership in.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. It's an emotional issue and very easy to get bogged down on the emotional side. But, until we have a judicial and police system which can guarantee 100% accurate convictions, there should be no death penalty.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:15 am

Who wants to bet Donald Jr and/or Eric are drug dealers? It’s almost guaranteed given Trump’s track record
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:18 am

mmo wrote:
Their official state motto is "Hope".

For what it's worth, what does a state motto even mean these days? Two other states have mottos esposing equality (Nebraska's "Equality before the law" and Wyoming's "Equal Rights")...neither of them is exactly a bastion of equality, are they?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:21 am

mmo wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


After spending most of my formative years growing up in RI, that state never ceases to amaze me! Their official state motto is "Hope". It should be "it's who you know, not what you know"! I was so glad when I left there and went to college a long way away and other than for short visits, weddings and funerals, the less time I spend there the better I feel.


RI has been improving quite a bit in recent years, really it wasn't so bad 20 years ago either. I think it just got walloped worse than the rest of New England during the great recession. That said, I've always lived in northern New England and never lived in RI myself, so I might just be out of touch.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:25 am

fr8mech wrote:
It’ll put a stop to the recidivism of that particularly insidious parasite and reduce prison populations.

But, we do capital punishment wrong here. It’s ineffective as any sort of deterrent because it takes too long to go from sentencing to execution and, I do feel it is not fairly applied across our justice system.


Or do what's happening in Europe and end the war on drugs, make most of them legal watch as the crime and drug use statistics drop like a stone.

Look at what's happened in Portugal after they solved the drug problem. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/opin ... ation.html
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11358
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
There is a myriad of things you can do to keep the recidivism rate low, that is why Norway has 20% and you have over 75% https://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/ ... lcome.aspx ... and that is after locking up 10% of your people. I´d be surprised if much of what Norways does to accomplish that would meet with your approval: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/a ... 20,00.html

best regards
Thomas


Agreed Norway got it correct but sometimes the Norwegian way isn't the best way, there is no doubt that Anders should have been executed, one day he will be back out on the street, that's a fail IMO.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:10 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


You mean "possibly" deadly?

As drinking alcohol? Or driving cars? Or smoking cigarettes? Or owning guns. ;)

Ok, let's be consequent then. Or, we agree that undertaking "risky" things is a part of life and ultimately a question of own responsibility. Let people smoke weed if they like it, they are allowed to drink freely after all as well. Let people do cocain if they feel like it. It's their lives, their health and the effect on society neglectable. In stark contrast to guns, btw...

Everyone who wants to do drugs does it anyway, legal or not!
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that your bought with your sacrifice
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:19 pm

mmo wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When you sell a substance knowingly and are aware it is deadly, you deserve to be charged with murder, not Manslaughter. That is being considered in R. I. this session of the legislature. I agree , murder it is.


After spending most of my formative years growing up in RI, that state never ceases to amaze me! Their official state motto is "Hope". It should be "it's who you know, not what you know"! I was so glad when I left there and went to college a long way away and other than for short visits, weddings and funerals, the less time I spend there the better I feel.

Taking your position is it safe to extrapolate your feelings about someone who kills someone in a car accident? After all, they killed someone. Do they deserve to be charged with murder not manslaughter?
Taking it one step further, a drunk driver does the same thing, Murder? Someone intentionally runs a red light...Murder? A physician makes a mistake and a patient dies....murder? A pilot is the PIC and there is a plane crash, there are deaths as a result of that. Murder???

There is no end to the thought process you are advocating. First of all, after living around the world, it's an embarrassment to tell people you are from the US, the marvels of having dual citizenship!! The US is 5th in executions, beat by China (Leader), Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Not a very great club to claim membership in.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. It's an emotional issue and very easy to get bogged down on the emotional side. But, until we have a judicial and police system which can guarantee 100% accurate convictions, there should be no death penalty.


Fully agree!
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
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CitizenJustin
Posts: 218
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:05 pm

fr8mech wrote:
It’ll put a stop to the recidivism of that particularly insidious parasite and reduce prison populations.

But, we do capital punishment wrong here. It’s ineffective as any sort of deterrent because it takes too long to go from sentencing to execution and, I do feel it is not fairly applied across our justice system.


Do you have any proof that this would serve as a deterrent?

Historically, many civilizations have employed the death penalty in a much more expeditious manner and it didn’t deter anything. It did result in many innocent people being found guilty and subsequently killed. You support drastic measures while ignoring historical precedent proving you’re wrong. Europe has abandoned capital punishment, yet no increase in crime occurred and it remains much safer than the U.S. which still has it. To me, this shows you’re not truly interested in justice, only harsh punishment.

What you’re advocating isn’t justice. It’s barbaric, eye for an eye, uncivilized nonsense that many of us have moved on from.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 456
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

Agreed Norway got it correct but sometimes the Norwegian way isn't the best way, there is no doubt that Anders should have been executed, one day he will be back out on the street, that's a fail IMO.


Not necessarily. Depends on the if the courts will consider him a threat to society or not.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:42 pm

I don’t see it like that, the Norwegian system is based on rehabilitation, if he’s not released then the system has failed, nobody has ever not been released, even Arnfinn Nesset was released early, he only served 12 years of a 21 year sentence for killing 22 people, he was suspected to have killed 138 people.
 
seb146
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:20 am

Just more of the same drivel (I want to use a different word but this is a family site) to pander to the same low information base.

Some of the drug addiction is opioids and prescription drugs. Does that mean the death penalty for doctors or pharmacists or companies that produce these addictive substances?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6371
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Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:34 am

This has to be one of the stupidest ideas ever from Trump. Not only does it miss the targer for those responsible for the deaths( The people doing the drugs), It also takes away from sincere efforts at getting people to look at why they turn to drugs such as opiods and their synthetic counterparts, and why they overdose. The key word is overdose. they take too much of what they are given. You take too much of any drug, and it will hurt you. Putting those to death that supply it is not the solution(Unless intent to kill can be proven). Drug dealers do it for the cash. It makes no sense to kill off their clientele.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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Channex757
Posts: 1887
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Death penalty for drug dealers?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:44 am

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of this from a standpoint of applying it to a friend of mine who was caught with a quantity of drugs, and there was some considerable to-and-fro with the police over the quantity. They wanted to charge him with "possession with intent to supply" which would (under Trump's proposal) catch him a death penalty.

His problem was that he went and bought some Class A drugs for him and his friends, and it was just over the limit which prosecutors consider as being sufficient to charge with our equivalent of being a dealer. It took some fancy lawyer work to get it reduced to just possession. The difference being a personal use level charge could be as low as a fine and come community service and the Intent charge would have meant years in the nick. Under this proposal he would have been put to death.

I'm not moralising here. He was silly and this was resolved in the end and he managed to rebuild his life. It's defining limits that would be a huge problem for the USA as this would be life or death. And I'm not comfortable at all with just the thought of it.

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