Attempted spy assasination in UK?

anrec80 · Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
why do you feel the need to defend him. He is a big boy. And btw Scorpius did threaten Lisbon.

I as well mentioned to you ability of Russian military to make to Netherlands in a few weeks time. Yes, a scenario where a Russian colonel comes knocking on your door is a possibility today. You haven't found me threatening though.

anrec80 · Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:38 am

OK - now we have some new developments here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04841.html

Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ.

Mr Lavrov said the toxin was not produced in Russia, but was in service in Britain, the United States and other Nato nations.

So not "novichok", but BZ?

Dutchy · Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:11 am

anrec80 wrote:
OK - now we have some new developments here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04841.html

Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ.

Mr Lavrov said the toxin was not produced in Russia, but was in service in Britain, the United States and other Nato nations.

So not "novichok", but BZ?

Sergei Lavrov said...... enough said.

However, the OPCW did say its scientists had “confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical”.

So why omit this fact? Not a new development, just the same old bullshit from Putin's regime, disinformation.

Dutchy · Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
why do you feel the need to defend him. He is a big boy. And btw Scorpius did threaten Lisbon.

I as well mentioned to you ability of Russian military to make to Netherlands in a few weeks time. Yes, a scenario where a Russian colonel comes knocking on your door is a possibility today. You haven't found me threatening though.

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.

anrec80 · Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:48 am

Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.

You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?

Dutchy · Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:07 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.

You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?

Uh? You now agree that Crimea was taken by the Russian military and annexed illegally, halleluiah, you have seen the light. (now I am sure you will deny it again, but you can't have it both way)
Even if the Putin regime wanted to invade Holland, they can't, NATO is something else then Ukraine where they already had a military base in the peninsula. Putin isn't that stupid to attack a NATO country. To answer your question: the military and unity is there to stop them and ultimately nuclear deterrent. That's why it is laughable, just like a screaming toddler making all kind of threats.

Lastly, I do not subscribe to this enemy thinking, so I do not have an "opponent". I know Putin's regime loves to frame it like this, just to keep the unity within Russia. Works like a charm, also in countries like Iran, group thinking: a ( fictive ) enemy outside the group works to preserve the unity of a group and will less question the leader. Exactly these processes you can observe in Russia: government, media and institutions work in unison.

UltimoTiger777 · Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.

You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?

Enough nuclear warheads to turn them into rubble (and vice versa)?

scbriml · Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
So not "novichok", but BZ?

Good try, but the experts have already confirmed the UK's evaluation of the agent used. No mention by Lavrov of which "lab" in Switzerland came to this conclusion or how they obtained a sample. :scratchchin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140

The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the nerve agent as Novichok, but said it agreed with the UK's findings on its identity.

Russia, which denies it was behind the attack in Salisbury, called the allegations an "anti-Russian campaign".

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said: "There can be no doubt what was used."

GDB · Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:33 pm

This looks to be an interesting read, certainly I can think of a few on here that would benefit.
(I have heard of the Surkov guy, employed by Putin, in one of Adam Curtis's documentaries a couple of years ago).

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/ ... -tim-adams

SheikhDjibouti · Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:33 pm

anrec80 wrote:
OK - now we have some new developments here.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04841.html
Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ.

The Spiez laboratory? Spiez or spies? :rotfl:

That's priceless. Is the dateline April 1st?

OMG, it's true - the place is for real. It's accredited by the OPCW and has previously analysed samples from Syria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiez_Laboratory

Anyways, assuming that the report definitely exists.
1) How did the Swiss lab obtain their sample? Was it supplied via the UK Government?
If it was, why would the UK supply them with a sample of BZ knowing it would be shown up?
If it wasn't, how did their scientists slip through the police barriers and collect their own sample.
Or did a phial of BZ turn up anonymously in an envelope with a Москва́ postmark?

2) Why is this report "confidential". Such a report, if it exists, exonerates Russia, and they have no reason to keep the details secret. This is not the same as asking a Russian military laboratory, or Porton Down, to reveal information which may be sensitive. AFAIK the laboratory reported it's findings to the OPCW, and if the OPCW is holding this information back, then surely the Russians also have an issue with the OPCW and it's 192 member states. So let's hear the Swiss confirm the details.

I'll wait.....

FreequentFlier · Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:38 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.

You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?

Multiple nukes on every Russian city.

tommy1808 · Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:48 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.

You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?

You mean aside of 4x times the military spending, 3 times the tanks, 4 times the IFV, 4 times the self propelled artillery, 2 times the attack helicopters, 2 times the combat aircraft and about an order of Magnitude more naval forces in the EU alone? Without Turkey, Kanada and the US.

Aside of that, the last time Russian equipment was somewhat effective was in the 60´s, exchange rates vs. western equipment are somewhere on the order of 1:10. Just check how Russian made SAM Batteries couldn´t even take down cruise missiles flying straight, level and with several days of warning.

best regards
Thomas

notaxonrotax · Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?

You finally admit that the Crimea was a hostile take over, without consent from the sovereign government.
Well well, we´re getting somewhere!
1 shot was fired though, and it killed quite a few innocent people....travelling in a B772.

Hahaha, Russia taking over Western Europe.....good joke.
Absolutely no citizen I know worries about that scenario in the area in question; I can assure you.

Why doesn`t Russia fix their internal issues first...before considering some more conquering?
A lot of towns I have visited were absolute shiteheaps......2nd world standard at best.

No Tax On Rotax

WIederling · Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
However, the OPCW did say its scientists had “confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical”.

So why omit this fact? Not a new development, just the same old bullshit from Putin's regime, disinformation.

Did the Porton Down people ever directly say that it was a nerve agent from the Novichok familiy?

Afaics you only have the word of Boris the Blond Beast and maybe May.
You have that hospital doctors interview in a reputable British paper
that nobody had contact with a "nerve agent" ( look around, can't remember the exact wording.)

you can't really lambast others for your own misunderstanding / not quite right perceptions.

Scorpius · Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Why doesn`t Russia fix their internal issues first...before considering some more conquering?
A lot of towns I have visited were absolute shiteheaps......2nd world standard at best.
No Tax On Rotax

You so write, as if the US or the EU has already dealt with their internal problems, and they have no cities, which look absolute shiteheaps. lol.

scbriml · Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 am

WIederling wrote:
Did the Porton Down people ever directly say that it was a nerve agent from the Novichok familiy?

Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/03/euro ... index.html

Speaking to Sky News on Tuesday, Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of Porton Down laboratory, said the poisonous substance used to carry out the attack was the military-grade nerve agent Novichok but said scientists did not identify where it was manufactured.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/port ... 04956.html

Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the Government's Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, said the poison had been identified as a military-grade Novichok nerve agent which could probably be deployed only by a nation-state.

Now Sergei Lavrov has been caught with his pants down. The Swiss lab denies his fantasy that Novichok wasn't used. How embarrassing for Russia.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-12367077

Spiez Laboratory, the Swiss Federal Institute for Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection, denied their report cast doubt on whether novichok was used.

In a statement, the Lab said: "Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock.

[Porton Down] - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW.

"The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings."

Scorpius · Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:28 am

scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.

WIederling · Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:29 am

scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Apropos: if you want to do your own:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_s ... 018_e_.pdf
( IMU written for creating signature samples.)

scbriml · Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:37 am

Scorpius wrote:
Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.

I'm just quoting the experts who know about these things. A gas wasn't used.

No comment of Lavrov being shown to be an out and out liar?

Dutchy · Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:32 am

scbriml wrote:
Now Sergei Lavrov has been caught with his pants down. The Swiss lab denies his fantasy that Novichok wasn't used. How embarrassing for Russia.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-12367077
Spiez Laboratory, the Swiss Federal Institute for Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection, denied their report cast doubt on whether novichok was used.

In a statement, the Lab said: "Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock.

[Porton Down] - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW.

"The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings."

Doesn't matter, that statement was for internal Russian use only. I doubt that the Russian press will cover this part of the story. The benefit of a restricted controlled press in Russia.

tommy1808 · Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:14 am

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died,

Over-compartmentalized Operation. The guy that was supposed to pick and fill up the Gas ready for use wasn´t told it is going to be used in an open environment.

best regards
Thomas

SheikhDjibouti · Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:31 pm

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.

Are you volunteering to test the next batch, personally? I will be kind and write you a fine obituary.
"Military grade" explosives exist, but you can survive a badly arranged blast of C-4, and be killed by a well presented explosion from "civilian grade" gunpowder.
But I expect you already know that, so why pretend to be ignorant? It's deliberate provocation and could easily result in you being mistaken for a troll.

The Skripals survived due to several pieces of luck.
1) A deadly gas is most effective in a "confined space".
This is a confined space;

This is not a confined space.

(thanks to Wikipedia for both photos)

2) The Skripals were quickly spotted, approached by a British Police Officer, and received prompt medical attention from one of the best medical services on the planet, the NHS..

Even so, their survival was in doubt for some days. So, yes, I am quite prepared to believe the agent used against them was potentially lethal.

tommy1808 · Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:43 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
1) A deadly gas is most effective in a "confined space".
This is a confined space;

One of my Co-Workers has been in a Coma before Skripal was hit. What did he do? Chlorine based mold killer, used it in his bedroom (=confined space) and went to sleep without proper ventilating the room.

Confinement and exposure times are highly relevant. Without confinement exposure time is usually shorter, because that stuff gets diluted.

best regards
Thomas

Dogman · Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.

GDB · Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:38 pm

Dogman wrote:
Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.

You beat me to it! Another reporter looking like they are getting near to a story Putin does not like, namely his declaring 'victory' in Syria in December, a few weeks later a load of his 'proxies' get themselves bombed. And they were not 'fighting Islamist terror' either.
And said reporter falls out of a window, not the first one either.

Dutchy · Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:06 pm

GDB wrote:
Dogman wrote:
Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.

You beat me to it! Another reporter looking like they are getting near to a story Putin does not like, namely his declaring 'victory' in Syria in December, a few weeks later a load of his 'proxies' get themselves bombed. And they were not 'fighting Islamist terror' either.
And said reporter falls out of a window, not the first one either.

Yup a dangerous profession: being a real journalist in Putin land

scbriml · Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Dogman wrote:
Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.

He sounds quite careless. :sarcastic:

scbriml · Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:27 am

scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.

I'm just quoting the experts who know about these things. A gas wasn't used.

No comment of Lavrov being shown to be an out and out liar?

Now confirmed that the Novichok was delivered in liquid form.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43798068

The nerve agent used to poison former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia was delivered "in a liquid form", the Department for Environment says.

64947 · Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:29 am

Again, where is the proof? In my eyes, the words of May are a mote worthless than Putin or Lavrov's...

Dogman · Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:36 pm

tu204 wrote:
Again, where is the proof? In my eyes, the words of May are a mote worthless than Putin or Lavrov's...

Russian UN representative Churkin dies, and wakes up in the other-world.
Churkin: Where am I?
A voice from above: In heaven.
Churkin: But that's not true! Look: there are devils everywhere, cauldrons with boiling oi, sulphur fumes... It is hell!
The voice: Prove it!

Dutchy · Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
Now confirmed that the Novichok was delivered in liquid form.

And quite a bit to clean up. Many places this substance was present all over this town. It will cost millions to clean it up again.

scbriml · Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And quite a bit to clean up. Many places this substance was present all over this town. It will cost millions to clean it up again.

No, you got it all wrong, Dutchy. It's us clearing up all the evidence that we poisoned the Skripals. :rotfl:

DLFREEBIRD · Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:59 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yup a dangerous profession: being a real journalist in Putin land

Haha. What about Western land? There may be such a thing as a "free journalist". But at best case nobody has any chance to see any or read any of their works. All media market is divided by a few conglomerates controlled by major political groups (parties, fractions, etc.). We even see the same statements worded in exactly the same way on different channels. They all, of course, have their "editorial policies", and if a journalist reports something that's against those - it's the end for their career. Hence lack of alternate point of view, and journalism with one point of view only is not a journalism, it's propaganda.

Hence we have masterpieces on major news channels like "yeah, this smells like sarin". Even though a) it doesn't have any smell and b) she would have been dead right there.

Another example - RT. They had different editorial policies. But - in the USA they engaged "foreign agent" legislature, even though RT was in the USA for 10 years before. In London - authorities have "questions about editorial policies". So where's the freedom, if authorities can "question editorial policies"?

What you haven't heard of NPR or PBS

anrec80 · Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yup a dangerous profession: being a real journalist in Putin land

Haha. What about Western land? There may be such a thing as a "free journalist". But at best case nobody has any chance to see any or read any of their works. All media market is divided by a few conglomerates controlled by major political groups (parties, fractions, etc.). We even see the same statements worded in exactly the same way on different channels. They all, of course, have their "editorial policies", and if a journalist reports something that's against those - it's the end for their career. Hence lack of alternate point of view, and journalism with one point of view only is not a journalism, it's propaganda.

Hence we have masterpieces on major news channels like "yeah, this smells like sarin". Even though a) it doesn't have any smell and b) she would have been dead right there.

Another example - RT. They had different editorial policies. But - in the USA they engaged "foreign agent" legislature, even though RT was in the USA for 10 years before. In London - authorities have "questions about editorial policies". So where's the freedom, if authorities can "question editorial policies"?

Dutchy · Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:39 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yup a dangerous profession: being a real journalist in Putin land

Haha. What about Western land? There may be such a thing as a "free journalist". But at best case nobody has any chance to see any or read any of their works. All media market is divided by a few conglomerates controlled by major political groups (parties, fractions, etc.). We even see the same statements worded in exactly the same way on different channels. They all, of course, have their "editorial policies", and if a journalist reports something that's against those - it's the end for their career. Hence lack of alternate point of view, and journalism with one point of view only is not a journalism, it's propaganda.

Hence we have masterpieces on major news channels like "yeah, this smells like sarin". Even though a) it doesn't have any smell and b) she would have been dead right there.

Another example - RT. They had different editorial policies. But - in the USA they engaged "foreign agent" legislature, even though RT was in the USA for 10 years before. In London - authorities have "questions about editorial policies". So where's the freedom, if authorities can "question editorial policies"?

Russia ranked 148 in the press freedom index. Source: https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2017

Stifling atmosphere for independent journalists
Between draconian laws and website blocking, the pressure on independent media has grown steadily since Vladimir Putin’s return to the Kremlin in 2012. Leading independent news outlets have either been brought under control or throttled out of existence. As TV channels continue to inundate viewers with state-run propaganda, the climate has become increasingly oppressive for those who question the new patriotic and neo-conservative discourse or just try to maintain quality journalism. At least five journalists are currently detained in connection with their reporting—an unprecedented number—and more and more bloggers are being jailed. The leading human rights NGOs have been declared “foreign agents.” Murders and physical attacks against journalists continue to go unpunished. Chechnya and Crimea, which was annexed in 2014, have meanwhile become “black holes” from which little news and information emerges.

Famous clip about the propaganda channel from Putin in the west: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55izx6rbCqg
"part of a network that whitewashes the actions of Putin."

So what about the western world?

salttee · Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:05 am

The Israeli's do the same thing.

Family accuses Israel's Mossad of killing Palestinian in Malaysia
https://www.yahoo.com/news/family-accus ... 16028.html

Israel is culturally closer to Russia than to any other country, so it's no surprise they have the same view of international law. Israel was founded by Russian emigres.

anrec80 · Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
Russia ranked 148 in the press freedom index. Source: https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2017

So who should do what about it? Russia has their media-related regulations, just as any other country. And not unlike one most countries calling themselves "democratic".

Dutchy wrote:
So what about the western world?

What about Western world? Don't you yourself feel that the "civilized world" is following "dictator regimes" by including RT into "foreign agents" list, "having questions" to editorial policies? BTW - largely those "draconian measures" mimic similar ones and are modeled from their USA equivalents.

anrec80 · Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:28 am

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And quite a bit to clean up. Many places this substance was present all over this town. It will cost millions to clean it up again.

No, you got it all wrong, Dutchy. It's us clearing up all the evidence that we poisoned the Skripals.

A bit premature laughter. The real one will be when the case of your prosecution will start falling apart. But I even guess how it all will happen - British will "find" some "Russian brigade", and demand they are turned over. Russians won't, of course - since this is something most countries never do. Then there will be another round of media scandals, possibly sanctions and the whole thing moves to something else.

Also - looking where MH-17 is heading, this is how that as well will most likely end.

Dutchy · Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:39 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia ranked 148 in the press freedom index. Source: https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2017

So who should do what about it? Russia has their media-related regulations, just as any other country. And not unlike one most countries calling themselves "democratic".

Dutchy wrote:
So what about the western world?

What about Western world? Don't you yourself feel that the "civilized world" is following "dictator regimes" by including RT into "foreign agents" list, "having questions" to editorial policies? BTW - largely those "draconian measures" mimic similar ones and are modeled from their USA equivalents.

You wanted to do again a whataboutism, so let's compare. Russia is ranked 148 in freedom of the press. The Netherlands is 5, UK 40, USA 43. Does that mean that there aren't any problems with the freedom of the press in those countries? No, of course not, it isn't a perfect world, but it means that it is far far better than in countries like Russia. So incomparable.

Freedom of the press is human rights:

The United Nations' 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference, and to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas through any media regardless of frontiers"

I know, I know, you are a Russian troll and you want to do this whataboutism to make Russia appear more like a normal country, so you make the comment like: "Russia has their media-related regulations, just as any other country.". Russia isn't like any other country, that is the whole point. Putin's regime is an autocratic regime with the (un)freedom of the press that comes with it. Russia Today isn't a news network, it is a Putin spokes network and yet it is still shown in the west.

Dutchy · Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:59 am

anrec80 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And quite a bit to clean up. Many places this substance was present all over this town. It will cost millions to clean it up again.

No, you got it all wrong, Dutchy. It's us clearing up all the evidence that we poisoned the Skripals.

A bit premature laughter. The real one will be when the case of your prosecution will start falling apart. But I even guess how it all will happen - British will "find" some "Russian brigade", and demand they are turned over. Russians won't, of course - since this is something most countries never do. Then there will be another round of media scandals, possibly sanctions and the whole thing moves to something else.

Also - looking where MH-17 is heading, this is how that as well will most likely end.

If Russia would observe the UNSC resolution which directs states to support the MH17 investigations without reservations we could move it forward more quickly, but alas. But don't worry, in the end, I am sure the people responsible will face a judge. So hopefully it will be heading the same way. Good point.

GDB · Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:18 am

A run down of BS from Russia and the real world facts;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43835774

Freakysh · Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:08 pm

So, have we found out what the overwhelming evidence that it was the Russians, is?

Hearing this a lot in interviews, but haven't caught any detail yet apart from the circumstantial stuff being peddled

anrec80 · Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If Russia would observe the UNSC resolution which directs states to support the MH17 investigations without reservations we could move it forward more quickly, but alas. But don't worry, in the end, I am sure the people responsible will face a judge. So hopefully it will be heading the same way. Good point.

I wish everyone would observe that UNSC resolution. Where's Ukrainian air traffic controller? ATC recordings? Ukrainian radar images? There is none of that, and you are criticizing Russia for issues with delays/data format.

I am truly curious to see who is actually responsible for this MH-17 thing. But the direction it's all heading is that JIT will just pick the list of Republics' leadership (Zakharchenko, Plotnitskiy, Strelkov come to mind), and loudly appoint them having to do with it. Then, media will just paint the picture of someone "bad and aggressive" and that will be largely it.

They may even demand that some Russian citizens are to be turned over, which, of course, something has no chance to succeed (for the reasons mentioned above). That will help in media campaign.

Dutchy · Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:09 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If Russia would observe the UNSC resolution which directs states to support the MH17 investigations without reservations we could move it forward more quickly, but alas. But don't worry, in the end, I am sure the people responsible will face a judge. So hopefully it will be heading the same way. Good point.

I wish everyone would observe that UNSC resolution. Where's Ukrainian air traffic controller? ATC recordings? Ukrainian radar images? There is none of that, and you are criticizing Russia for issues with delays/data format.

I am truly curious to see who is actually responsible for this MH-17 thing. But the direction it's all heading is that JIT will just pick the list of Republics' leadership (Zakharchenko, Plotnitskiy, Strelkov come to mind), and loudly appoint them having to do with it. Then, media will just paint the picture of someone "bad and aggressive" and that will be largely it.

They may even demand that some Russian citizens are to be turned over, which, of course, something has no chance to succeed (for the reasons mentioned above). That will help in media campaign.

Russia's "evidence" is proven false by the JIT. The JIT does a great job given the unwillingness from Russia. Given this, Russia will indeed not work with the JIT to bring these Russian people of interest to work with the JIT.

I truly believe you do not want to know whom actually did it, your attitude is: Russia didn't do it and who did, I don't care.

PS guess you agree with the assessment that Russian media and western media isn't on the same level of freedom.

anrec80 · Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Russia's "evidence" is proven false by the JIT. The JIT does a great job given the unwillingness from Russia. Given this, Russia will indeed not work with the JIT to bring these Russian people of interest to work with the JIT.

I truly believe you do not want to know whom actually did it, your attitude is: Russia didn't do it and who did, I don't care.

PS guess you agree with the assessment that Russian media and western media isn't on the same level of freedom.

All JIT said was “the radar might have not seen”, which is not the same as “proven false”. And before we can state “will not work”, JIT (or Netherlands for that reason) needs to send official request to proper Russian authorities, and then judge - will there be responses or not, and what these responses will be. A media campaign is not a replacement to official requests. It’s been countless times recently, when Western officials “demanded answers” in front of public media, but no official requests were received by Russians.

L410Turbolet · Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:25 am

salttee wrote:
The Israeli's do the same thing.
Family accuses Israel's Mossad of killing Palestinian in Malaysia

Hamas member. Very legitimate target.

salttee · Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:41 am

So in your view, countries can just kill whoever they don't like wherever they are? Or do you wish to extend that privilege to individuals, political parties or maybe sports franchises?

anrec80 · Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:18 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Hamas member. Very legitimate target.

OK - so now we have targets that are legitimate and those that are not? How do we draw the boundary? And - should the "world community" (and us here) condemn Israel as the state for carrying out their operations in third countries?

Dutchy · Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia's "evidence" is proven false by the JIT. The JIT does a great job given the unwillingness from Russia. Given this, Russia will indeed not work with the JIT to bring these Russian people of interest to work with the JIT.

I truly believe you do not want to know whom actually did it, your attitude is: Russia didn't do it and who did, I don't care.

PS guess you agree with the assessment that Russian media and western media isn't on the same level of freedom.

All JIT said was “the radar might have not seen”, which is not the same as “proven false”. And before we can state “will not work”, JIT (or Netherlands for that reason) needs to send official request to proper Russian authorities, and then judge - will there be responses or not, and what these responses will be. A media campaign is not a replacement to official requests. It’s been countless times recently, when Western officials “demanded answers” in front of public media, but no official requests were received by Russians.

No, Russian judges are not independent. But I don't know if there has been an official request or not. Apparently, you are very close to the investigation that you know these things. I question everything you say because you have proven so many times false, as has Russia, so give us an independent source that Russia does comply with the UNSC resolution.

tommy1808 · Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
No, Russian judges are not independent..

Dutchy, you may be able to convince him, but he will never admit that. He is Russian, he probably doesn't want to go to prison, get, murdered in some back alley or be trown off a balcony.

Pitty is in order, not frustration.

Best regards
Thomas

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