scbriml wrote:

Cue the usual suspects to deny any Russian involvement, in 3...2...1...

tu204 wrote:

If there is Russian involvment, good for those invloved. I don't have much against traitors getting what they deserve

CCGPV wrote:

I wondered why that guy had an umbrella even though it was a sunny day.

tu204 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Cue the usual suspects to deny any Russian involvement, in 3...2...1...

If there is Russian involvment, good for those invloved. I don't have much against traitors getting what they deserve

Route66 wrote:

tu204 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Cue the usual suspects to deny any Russian involvement, in 3...2...1...

If there is Russian involvment, good for those invloved. I don't have much against traitors getting what they deserve

So you wouldn't mind if somebody offed Snowden in Moscow?

tu204 wrote:

Route66 wrote:

tu204 wrote:

If there is Russian involvment, good for those invloved. I don't have much against traitors getting what they deserve

So you wouldn't mind if somebody offed Snowden in Moscow?

I think he's in St.Petersburg actually.

Although I really do appreciate what he did and the fact that he did it not for the money, but due to his personal beliefs, he is a traitor. I respect him for doing what he thought was right for a just cause, but being a traitor has it's consequences. So the answer is that I would understand it if he was offed, I wouldn't be happy from the fact, but I would understand it.

Route66 wrote:

tu204 wrote:

Route66 wrote:

So you wouldn't mind if somebody offed Snowden in Moscow?

I think he's in St.Petersburg actually.

Although I really do appreciate what he did and the fact that he did it not for the money, but due to his personal beliefs, he is a traitor. I respect him for doing what he thought was right for a just cause, but being a traitor has it's consequences. So the answer is that I would understand it if he was offed, I wouldn't be happy from the fact, but I would understand it.

Fair enough. As long as things are consistent.

What other high profile espionage assassinations have there been?

sevenair wrote:

Well. The Russians said they didn't do it.

Sergei Skripal, the former Russian spy at the centre of an apparent attempted assassination plot in Britain, had links to Christopher Steele.
Skripal passed intelligence to British officials at the same time Steele became MI6’s Kremlin specialist.

The ex-Kremlin spy found unconscious on a bench in Britain almost certainly has links to Christopher Steele, the man who penned the explosive Russia dossier on US President Donald Trump, experts told Business Insider.

Sergei Skripal, who is critically ill in hospital after being exposed to a mystery substance on Sunday, turned double agent in 1995 when he was recruited by the UK’s Secret Intelligence Service, MI6.

Skripal passed information to MI6 agents between 1995 and December 2004, when he was arrested. That was the verdict of a Moscow military court, which sentenced him to 13 years in prison for spying for Britain.

Skripal’s time handing intelligence to Britain overlapped with Steele’s meteoric rise at MI6, where he became the agency’s preeminent expert on Russia. Steele was posted to Moscow for three years from 1990, working undercover as a British diplomat. After returning to London, he continued to work on Russia and “moved in a small world of Kremlin specialists,” according to The Guardian. By 2006, he was head of MI6’s Russia desk.

Jouhou wrote:

Sounds like a nerve agent like sarin/vx. At least they keep things fresh by changing it up from polonium tea...

zkojq wrote:

but using a nerve agent like Sarin in a public area is disgustingly irresponsible. Could have killed dozens of innocent civilians.

zkojq wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Sounds like a nerve agent like sarin/vx. At least they keep things fresh by changing it up from polonium tea...

If its true that Putin is approving operations that use crude methods like Sarin to terminate people he doesn't like that, then that definitely crosses a red line. It's one thing to slip polonium or another poison into the victim's tea (or to poke someone in the leg with a poison-laced umbrella), but using a nerve agent like Sarin in a public area is disgustingly irresponsible. Could have killed dozens of innocent civilians. If that is what happens, then it's time for plans to be put in place to knock Putin off. Anyway, the symptoms don't look like Sarin, so this is probably irrelevant.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

It took 23 years to nail Gaddafi for his terrorism.

wingman wrote:

Leave it to Putin to expose hundreds or thousands of people to the nasty stuff to get his man. Are Russians so hopelessly fucked up as ot be out of guns and bullets these days? Everything the country does is completely half-baked.

Random day to be agreeing with TU-204 though, turn traitor you deserve what you get. But for fuck's sake can't you do it nice and clean like?

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

zkojq wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Sounds like a nerve agent like sarin/vx. At least they keep things fresh by changing it up from polonium tea...

If its true that Putin is approving operations that use crude methods like Sarin to terminate people he doesn't like that, then that definitely crosses a red line. It's one thing to slip polonium or another poison into the victim's tea (or to poke someone in the leg with a poison-laced umbrella), but using a nerve agent like Sarin in a public area is disgustingly irresponsible. Could have killed dozens of innocent civilians. If that is what happens, then it's time for plans to be put in place to knock Putin off. Anyway, the symptoms don't look like Sarin, so this is probably irrelevant.

The symptoms don't look like sarin? I'm no expert, so enlighten me.

Meanwhile, it's hardly new news, but since it hasn't been mentioned above;
The 33 year old woman also in hospital is his daughter. They dined at an Italian restaurant and visited a pub.

One British policeman who arrived on the scene is still (today) in hospital in a "serious condition".
Two other British police were treated in hospital for minor symptoms including itchy eyes and wheezing. They have since been released and given the all clear.
And today, two days after the event, another (unrelated) woman has also been admitted to hospital. I accept the possibility this last case could simply be a manifestation of mass hysteria, as in the Morangos com Açúcar (Strawberries with sugar virus).

Assuming that the first police only arrived on the scene several minutes after any attack, since up until then there was no obvious evidence of any "attack", this is worrying.
If it now transpires that a civilian who had no direct contact with the Russians is also affected, when she was merely in the same locale at some point, this is beyond serious.

It took 23 years to nail Gaddafi for his terrorism.
Let's hope Putin & the KGB don't get the same benefit.

Jouhou wrote:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

zkojq wrote:

If its true that Putin is approving operations that use crude methods like Sarin to terminate people he doesn't like that, then that definitely crosses a red line. It's one thing to slip polonium or another poison into the victim's tea (or to poke someone in the leg with a poison-laced umbrella), but using a nerve agent like Sarin in a public area is disgustingly irresponsible. Could have killed dozens of innocent civilians. If that is what happens, then it's time for plans to be put in place to knock Putin off. Anyway, the symptoms don't look like Sarin, so this is probably irrelevant.

The symptoms don't look like sarin? I'm no expert, so enlighten me.

Meanwhile, it's hardly new news, but since it hasn't been mentioned above;
The 33 year old woman also in hospital is his daughter. They dined at an Italian restaurant and visited a pub.

One British policeman who arrived on the scene is still (today) in hospital in a "serious condition".
Two other British police were treated in hospital for minor symptoms including itchy eyes and wheezing. They have since been released and given the all clear.
And today, two days after the event, another (unrelated) woman has also been admitted to hospital. I accept the possibility this last case could simply be a manifestation of mass hysteria, as in the Morangos com Açúcar (Strawberries with sugar virus).

Assuming that the first police only arrived on the scene several minutes after any attack, since up until then there was no obvious evidence of any "attack", this is worrying.
If it now transpires that a civilian who had no direct contact with the Russians is also affected, when she was merely in the same locale at some point, this is beyond serious.

It took 23 years to nail Gaddafi for his terrorism.
Let's hope Putin & the KGB don't get the same benefit.

It's been confirmed that it was a nerve agent, but won't reveal which while they are investigating. Next prediction of mine, it's something more advanced than sarin, such as vx, if it's critical to the investigation at this time to not reveal the specifics. It would imply a state actor- and as I've mentioned before it's Russian style to leave their mark so it's clear who did it as a warning to others.

WarRI1 wrote:

Putin follows the old Mafia Doctrine, bury your self behind layers of operatives and they will never get to you. It really helps to have the Russian Army and its weapons at your disposal.

Jouhou wrote:

It's been confirmed that it was a nerve agent, but won't reveal which while they are investigating. Next prediction of mine, it's something more advanced than sarin, such as vx, if it's critical to the investigation at this time to not reveal the specifics. It would imply a state actor- and as I've mentioned before it's Russian style to leave their mark so it's clear who did it as a warning to others.

Jouhou wrote:

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent perhaps this is in some part Putin showing off Russia's wmd arsenal to accompany the new nukes.

zkojq wrote:

I think the message is actually to Russians, rather than the West. Putin is telling the army, security services and other relevant players that he will crush any disloyalty.

FlyingColours wrote:

I think this is just adding fuel to the fire...

State TV and Media warning "Traitors" about coming to the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

Time to deal with the Russians, the problem is what are we going to do other than write a sternly worded letter... Oh and don't say the UN as they are a waste of space, let's not forget that Russia vetoed the UNSC proposals to punish Russia for MH17...

Phil
FlyingColours

zkojq wrote:

I think the message is actually to Russians, rather than the West. Putin is telling the army, security services and other relevant players that he will crush any disloyalty.

sevenair wrote:

Personally I'm of the opinion that this is a Russian issue for the Russian people. I'm not too bothered if and when they pop one another off

sevenair wrote:

Personally I'm of the opinion that this is a Russian issue for the Russian people. I'm not too bothered if and when they pop one another off but I do take issue with my NHS (it is not the NHS of the world like many of the liberal elite claim it to be) being used and I certainly take issue with weapons being used which have a high propensity for creating collateral damage. This nerve agent being one of them causing serious injury to a policeman and contaminating the local area.

Old fashioned sniper, boobytrapped car, petrol though the letterbox, stabbed with a poisoned umbrella.... Whatever. Just don't put my people at risk. We have enough homegrown jihadis, imported jihadis and jihadis camping out in sangatte ready to drive a truck of peace at us or a firework of peace (TATP usually) without the Rooskies doing this on our turf. I know it's a.net logic to despise the UK (particularly us English) and many are of the opinion that we deserve it but it's a domestic issues for the Russians. Keep it that way.

L410Turbolet wrote:

zkojq wrote:

I think the message is actually to Russians, rather than the West. Putin is telling the army, security services and other relevant players that he will crush any disloyalty.

I think you are at least partially misreading it. Do you really think that KGB/FSB officers did/do not know what is at stake and what Motherland is capable of when they cross the Rubicon, figuratively speaking? Getting whacked off is implicit "occupational hazard" associated with such decision. It has always been.

L410Turbolet wrote:

I'm not sure what the adequate British response should be,

L410Turbolet wrote:

but it should be more than just the princes not travelling to Russia to watch the corrupt WC in football.

Jouhou wrote:

Now has been confirmed as a Novichok agent.

scbriml wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Now has been confirmed as a Novichok agent.

Gosh, I'm shocked to hear confirmation that Russia's dirty hand is all over this.

As to any meaningful response from the UK, I won't hold my breath.

cpd wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Now has been confirmed as a Novichok agent.

Gosh, I'm shocked to hear confirmation that Russia's dirty hand is all over this.

As to any meaningful response from the UK, I won't hold my breath.

Maybe a similar style of retribution inside Russia? Putin won't do anything about it, he will not want to face M.A.D.

tu204 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Personally I'm of the opinion that this is a Russian issue for the Russian people. I'm not too bothered if and when they pop one another off but I do take issue with my NHS (it is not the NHS of the world like many of the liberal elite claim it to be) being used and I certainly take issue with weapons being used which have a high propensity for creating collateral damage. This nerve agent being one of them causing serious injury to a policeman and contaminating the local area.

Old fashioned sniper, boobytrapped car, petrol though the letterbox, stabbed with a poisoned umbrella.... Whatever. Just don't put my people at risk. We have enough homegrown jihadis, imported jihadis and jihadis camping out in sangatte ready to drive a truck of peace at us or a firework of peace (TATP usually) without the Rooskies doing this on our turf. I know it's a.net logic to despise the UK (particularly us English) and many are of the opinion that we deserve it but it's a domestic issues for the Russians. Keep it that way.

Then don't harbour crooks and spies from other countries

Although to be honest I am not too fond of innocent people getting hurt because of his stupid decision myself.

Dutchy wrote:

Expel 76 Russian diplomats with FSB connections. That would be an appropriate response.

scbriml wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Expel 76 Russian diplomats with FSB connections. That would be an appropriate response.

And that will likely be close to the reality. A few expulsions, some sanctions against senior Russian politicians, maybe a tightening of regulations around Russian money in the UK. Not much more.

Jouhou wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Expel 76 Russian diplomats with FSB connections. That would be an appropriate response.

And that will likely be close to the reality. A few expulsions, some sanctions against senior Russian politicians, maybe a tightening of regulations around Russian money in the UK. Not much more.

Form a task force to seize laundered money in the country. That *would* make them being tremble. I'm hoping that's what the US investigation snowballs into.

scbriml wrote:

Gosh, I'm shocked to hear confirmation that Russia's dirty hand is all over this.

As to any meaningful response from the UK, I won't hold my breath.

tu204 wrote:

Then don't harbour crooks and spies from other countries

Although to be honest I am not too fond of innocent people getting hurt because of his stupid decision myself.

anrec80 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Gosh, I'm shocked to hear confirmation that Russia's dirty hand is all over this.

As to any meaningful response from the UK, I won't hold my breath.

Don't British need to finish investigation first? They haven't even started it yet. Who used the agent? How did these people got it? In the darknet, you can buy anything now. These agents are being made by ISIS, during the mess of 90s in Russia who knows how much of this stuff went onto black markets. They need to investigate that first, but instead they called on Russian ambassador. As if he can know what gets onto British soil and how. It's British authorities responsibility, not that of Russian ambassador.

Jouhou wrote:

Well, the Brits have given the Russians the opportunity to explain how someone else may have gotten a hold of their unique chemical weapons which only Russia knows how to produce. Go ahead, tell us. Who got a hold of those?

CCGPV wrote:

What non-state actors have access to VX?

Seems like overkill if it were a simple gambling debt, etc.

anrec80 wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Well, the Brits have given the Russians the opportunity to explain how someone else may have gotten a hold of their unique chemical weapons which only Russia knows how to produce. Go ahead, tell us. Who got a hold of those?

True, except that British gave the Ambassador 36 hour window.