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anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
why do you feel the need to defend him. He is a big boy. And btw Scorpius did threaten Lisbon. :lol:


I as well mentioned to you ability of Russian military to make to Netherlands in a few weeks time. Yes, a scenario where a Russian colonel comes knocking on your door is a possibility today. You haven't found me threatening though.
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:38 am

OK - now we have some new developments here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04841.html

Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ.

Mr Lavrov said the toxin was not produced in Russia, but was in service in Britain, the United States and other Nato nations.



So not "novichok", but BZ?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:11 am

anrec80 wrote:
OK - now we have some new developments here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04841.html

Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ.

Mr Lavrov said the toxin was not produced in Russia, but was in service in Britain, the United States and other Nato nations.



So not "novichok", but BZ?


Sergei Lavrov said...... enough said.

However, the OPCW did say its scientists had “confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical”.


So why omit this fact? Not a new development, just the same old bullshit from Putin's regime, disinformation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
why do you feel the need to defend him. He is a big boy. And btw Scorpius did threaten Lisbon. :lol:


I as well mentioned to you ability of Russian military to make to Netherlands in a few weeks time. Yes, a scenario where a Russian colonel comes knocking on your door is a possibility today. You haven't found me threatening though.


No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:48 am

Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.


You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:07 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.


You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?


Uh? You now agree that Crimea was taken by the Russian military and annexed illegally, halleluiah, you have seen the light. (now I am sure you will deny it again, but you can't have it both way)
Even if the Putin regime wanted to invade Holland, they can't, NATO is something else then Ukraine where they already had a military base in the peninsula. Putin isn't that stupid to attack a NATO country. To answer your question: the military and unity is there to stop them and ultimately nuclear deterrent. That's why it is laughable, just like a screaming toddler making all kind of threats.

Lastly, I do not subscribe to this enemy thinking, so I do not have an "opponent". I know Putin's regime loves to frame it like this, just to keep the unity within Russia. Works like a charm, also in countries like Iran, group thinking: a ( fictive ) enemy outside the group works to preserve the unity of a group and will less question the leader. Exactly these processes you can observe in Russia: government, media and institutions work in unison.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.


You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?


Enough nuclear warheads to turn them into rubble (and vice versa)?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
So not "novichok", but BZ?


Good try, but the experts have already confirmed the UK's evaluation of the agent used. No mention by Lavrov of which "lab" in Switzerland came to this conclusion or how they obtained a sample. :scratchchin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140
The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the nerve agent as Novichok, but said it agreed with the UK's findings on its identity.

Russia, which denies it was behind the attack in Salisbury, called the allegations an "anti-Russian campaign".

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said: "There can be no doubt what was used."
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:33 pm

This looks to be an interesting read, certainly I can think of a few on here that would benefit.
(I have heard of the Surkov guy, employed by Putin, in one of Adam Curtis's documentaries a couple of years ago).

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/ ... -tim-adams
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:33 pm

anrec80 wrote:
OK - now we have some new developments here.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04841.html
Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ.

The Spiez laboratory? Spiez or spies? :rotfl:
That's priceless. Is the dateline April 1st?

OMG, it's true - the place is for real. It's accredited by the OPCW and has previously analysed samples from Syria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiez_Laboratory

Anyways, assuming that the report definitely exists.
1) How did the Swiss lab obtain their sample? Was it supplied via the UK Government?
If it was, why would the UK supply them with a sample of BZ knowing it would be shown up?
If it wasn't, how did their scientists slip through the police barriers and collect their own sample.
Or did a phial of BZ turn up anonymously in an envelope with a Москва́ postmark?

2) Why is this report "confidential". Such a report, if it exists, exonerates Russia, and they have no reason to keep the details secret. This is not the same as asking a Russian military laboratory, or Porton Down, to reveal information which may be sensitive. AFAIK the laboratory reported it's findings to the OPCW, and if the OPCW is holding this information back, then surely the Russians also have an issue with the OPCW and it's 192 member states. So let's hear the Swiss confirm the details.

I'll wait.....
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
FreequentFlier
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:38 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.


You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?


Multiple nukes on every Russian city.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:48 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, I don't take you and Scorpius seriously. Russia hasn't has that ability.


You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?


You mean aside of 4x times the military spending, 3 times the tanks, 4 times the IFV, 4 times the self propelled artillery, 2 times the attack helicopters, 2 times the combat aircraft and about an order of Magnitude more naval forces in the EU alone? Without Turkey, Kanada and the US.

Aside of that, the last time Russian equipment was somewhat effective was in the 60´s, exchange rates vs. western equipment are somewhere on the order of 1:10. Just check how Russian made SAM Batteries couldn´t even take down cruise missiles flying straight, level and with several days of warning.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
You are underestimating your opponent. 4 years ago they could take over a peninsula without a shot fired. So what's there in Europe to really stop them?


You finally admit that the Crimea was a hostile take over, without consent from the sovereign government.
Well well, we´re getting somewhere!
1 shot was fired though, and it killed quite a few innocent people....travelling in a B772.

Hahaha, Russia taking over Western Europe.....good joke.
Absolutely no citizen I know worries about that scenario in the area in question; I can assure you.

Why doesn`t Russia fix their internal issues first...before considering some more conquering?
A lot of towns I have visited were absolute shiteheaps......2nd world standard at best.


No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
WIederling
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
However, the OPCW did say its scientists had “confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical”.


So why omit this fact? Not a new development, just the same old bullshit from Putin's regime, disinformation.


Did the Porton Down people ever directly say that it was a nerve agent from the Novichok familiy?

Afaics you only have the word of Boris the Blond Beast and maybe May.
You have that hospital doctors interview in a reputable British paper
that nobody had contact with a "nerve agent" ( look around, can't remember the exact wording.)

you can't really lambast others for your own misunderstanding / not quite right perceptions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Scorpius
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Why doesn`t Russia fix their internal issues first...before considering some more conquering?
A lot of towns I have visited were absolute shiteheaps......2nd world standard at best.
No Tax On Rotax

You so write, as if the US or the EU has already dealt with their internal problems, and they have no cities, which look absolute shiteheaps. lol.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 am

WIederling wrote:
Did the Porton Down people ever directly say that it was a nerve agent from the Novichok familiy?


Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/03/euro ... index.html
Speaking to Sky News on Tuesday, Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of Porton Down laboratory, said the poisonous substance used to carry out the attack was the military-grade nerve agent Novichok but said scientists did not identify where it was manufactured.


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/port ... 04956.html
Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the Government's Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, said the poison had been identified as a military-grade Novichok nerve agent which could probably be deployed only by a nation-state.



Now Sergei Lavrov has been caught with his pants down. The Swiss lab denies his fantasy that Novichok wasn't used. How embarrassing for Russia.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-12367077
Spiez Laboratory, the Swiss Federal Institute for Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection, denied their report cast doubt on whether novichok was used.

In a statement, the Lab said: "Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock.

[Porton Down] - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW.

"The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings."
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:28 am

scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.
 
WIederling
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:29 am

scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.


Apropos: if you want to do your own:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_s ... 018_e_.pdf
( IMU written for creating signature samples.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:37 am

Scorpius wrote:
Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.


I'm just quoting the experts who know about these things. A gas wasn't used.

No comment of Lavrov being shown to be an out and out liar?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:32 am

scbriml wrote:
Now Sergei Lavrov has been caught with his pants down. The Swiss lab denies his fantasy that Novichok wasn't used. How embarrassing for Russia.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-12367077
Spiez Laboratory, the Swiss Federal Institute for Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection, denied their report cast doubt on whether novichok was used.

In a statement, the Lab said: "Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock.

[Porton Down] - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW.

"The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings."


Doesn't matter, that statement was for internal Russian use only. I doubt that the Russian press will cover this part of the story. The benefit of a restricted controlled press in Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:14 am

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died,


Over-compartmentalized Operation. The guy that was supposed to pick and fill up the Gas ready for use wasn´t told it is going to be used in an open environment.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:31 pm

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Yes. Not only did they identify it as Novichok, they described it as "military grade" - not something that had been put together in a garden shed by an amateur.

Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.

Are you volunteering to test the next batch, personally? I will be kind and write you a fine obituary.
"Military grade" explosives exist, but you can survive a badly arranged blast of C-4, and be killed by a well presented explosion from "civilian grade" gunpowder.
But I expect you already know that, so why pretend to be ignorant? It's deliberate provocation and could easily result in you being mistaken for a troll.

The Skripals survived due to several pieces of luck.
1) A deadly gas is most effective in a "confined space".
This is a confined space;
Image

This is not a confined space.
Image
(thanks to Wikipedia for both photos)

2) The Skripals were quickly spotted, approached by a British Police Officer, and received prompt medical attention from one of the best medical services on the planet, the NHS..

Even so, their survival was in doubt for some days. So, yes, I am quite prepared to believe the agent used against them was potentially lethal.
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:43 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
1) A deadly gas is most effective in a "confined space".
This is a confined space;

:checkmark:

One of my Co-Workers has been in a Coma before Skripal was hit. What did he do? Chlorine based mold killer, used it in his bedroom (=confined space) and went to sleep without proper ventilating the room.

Confinement and exposure times are highly relevant. Without confinement exposure time is usually shorter, because that stuff gets diluted.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Dogman
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.
 
GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:38 pm

Dogman wrote:
Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.


You beat me to it! Another reporter looking like they are getting near to a story Putin does not like, namely his declaring 'victory' in Syria in December, a few weeks later a load of his 'proxies' get themselves bombed. And they were not 'fighting Islamist terror' either.
And said reporter falls out of a window, not the first one either.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:06 pm

GDB wrote:
Dogman wrote:
Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.


You beat me to it! Another reporter looking like they are getting near to a story Putin does not like, namely his declaring 'victory' in Syria in December, a few weeks later a load of his 'proxies' get themselves bombed. And they were not 'fighting Islamist terror' either.
And said reporter falls out of a window, not the first one either.


Yup a dangerous profession: being a real journalist in Putin land
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Dogman wrote:
Another reporter died in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43781351. He was one of the first journalists who reported about Russian mercenaries killed in Syria - the Wagner group. Fell out of his window, no suicide note.


He sounds quite careless. :sarcastic:

Image
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:27 am

scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Well, that is you continue to argue that after applying deadly poison gas "military grade" in the end no one died, even a Guinea pig or a cat.
Mmm, bloody dangerous gas.


I'm just quoting the experts who know about these things. A gas wasn't used.

No comment of Lavrov being shown to be an out and out liar?


Now confirmed that the Novichok was delivered in liquid form.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43798068
The nerve agent used to poison former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia was delivered "in a liquid form", the Department for Environment says.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tu204
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:29 am

Again, where is the proof? In my eyes, the words of May are a mote worthless than Putin or Lavrov's...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Dogman
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:36 pm

tu204 wrote:
Again, where is the proof? In my eyes, the words of May are a mote worthless than Putin or Lavrov's...


Russian UN representative Churkin dies, and wakes up in the other-world.
Churkin: Where am I?
A voice from above: In heaven.
Churkin: But that's not true! Look: there are devils everywhere, cauldrons with boiling oi, sulphur fumes... It is hell!
The voice: Prove it!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
Now confirmed that the Novichok was delivered in liquid form.


And quite a bit to clean up. Many places this substance was present all over this town. It will cost millions to clean it up again.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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