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GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:03 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Becoming energy independent will help but that takes time. Becoming fossil fuel independent will help, but that takes a lot of time. Given the current situation, the EU can only apply pressure - especially the people surrounding the Putin regime - because it also applies to Russia, they are also dependent on the EU for foreign funds. But granted, this mass expulsion of diplomats is more for domestic use than to send Russia a message.


So there you have it.
Do nothing and let Russia continue to do what it wants.

As for fossil fuel and independence of such, then please take note that several EU-countries are pushing for the North Stream 2 gas pipeline to be built to increase dependence of Russian fossil fuel.
What could possibly go wrong there.

Nuclear power is the only way to go.


You seem to be forgetting that Russia needs the revenues from supplying that gas and other fossil fuels, sanctions after Crimea hurt Putin and his other billionaire cronies.
It is also politically needed, for all of his 'strongman' attitude and stoking up paranoia about foreigners, the key to Putin staying Russian leader - even with all the locking up and other pressures on opponents, the ballot box stuffing (including in the recent election that he'd have won anyway), is and has always been avoiding a return to the economic chaos of the Yeltsin years.

Aside from arms they don't have other major revenue earners aside from fossil fuels, which is a tragic situation for a country that is far from short of educated people. But not when you are running a regime that a former UK ambassador to Russia, when asked if it's fair to describe Putin's regime as a 'Mafia State', replied that would be unfair....to the Mafia.

I would agree that the next step is to go after assets, UK governments have allowed way too much dodgy money to swirl around, the governing party even has accepted donations from Russians in the UK, which they should be regretting.

To the case of MH17, it was the usual playbook by the Russian government, deny, spin stories and conspiracy theories (which 'useful idiots' in the West sometimes believe), demand an investigation, then obstruct it as much as possible.
They claimed an Ukrainian SU-25 shot down MH17, given this ground attack type, with no radar for air to air combat, only had heat seeking, short range AA missiles or it's guns.

When investigators finally got to the wreckage, clear evidence was found that an explosion and fragments consistent with a Buk radar guided missile detonating near the cockpit, ruled out a IR missile (which would hit or detonate on or near the engines).
For that, Russian operated airlines should have been banned from Western airspace until the Russian government co-operated fully with the MH17 investigation. (I also think the same should have been the case with Egypt after they flatly refused to accept the findings of that 767 crash in 1999).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You defend Russia against anything, against overwhelming evidence or with no evidence shown, it doesn't matter, your conclusions are always the same: Putin did the right thing and Russia is not to blame. Example: MH17 overwhelming evidence, you still deny it. Hence you have no other credentials than being a Russian troll.


Where’s that “overwhelming evidence”? All we’ve seen so far on MH-17 is that Bellingcat “social media based” report with Buk having been hauled from and back to some “black hole” on Russian border. Hardly an evidence and certainly not an “overwhelming” one. We’ve been promised a trial on that later this year, but that’s been pushed into 2019 now. Isn’t it time for you to start questioning what those investigators are doing there? And will you ever get to anything?


You like to frame it as Bellingcat, I would say the overwhelming evidence is with the official investigation. All transparent on the internet for everyone to see. With regards to the trail, if the evidence against persons is there, they will be held personally accountable, that is something different than the Russian state.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You like to frame it as Bellingcat, I would say the overwhelming evidence is with the official investigation. All transparent on the internet for everyone to see. With regards to the trail, if the evidence against persons is there, they will be held personally accountable, that is something different than the Russian state.


Ok - so now we are making progress. After all these years of accusing Russia as the whole in MH17, you acknowledge that a group of individuals involved into it is actually not the same as Russian state. And that we actually need to wait and see if the evidence is there, and against whom this evidence is. But this is what I and a few others kept telling you from the beginning! And all I was getting back (and still am) were labels of a “troll”.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You like to frame it as Bellingcat, I would say the overwhelming evidence is with the official investigation. All transparent on the internet for everyone to see. With regards to the trail, if the evidence against persons is there, they will be held personally accountable, that is something different than the Russian state.


Ok - so now we are making progress. After all these years of accusing Russia as the whole in MH17, you acknowledge that a group of individuals involved into it is actually not the same as Russian state. And that we actually need to wait and see if the evidence is there, and against whom this evidence is. But this is what I and a few others kept telling you from the beginning! And all I was getting back (and still am) were labels of a “troll”.


Well, if you believe everyone in Russia can just walk out of a military installation with a BUK missile, then yes, one could argue that this is a case about individual and the Russian state isn't involved at all. If you argue that the Russian state is responsible for its BUK missiles then one could argue that the Russian state bears at least some of the responsibilities. What we do know is that the persons of interest have a military background, if they were actively serving, I don't know. A criminal court case is about individuals, not the state unless it is proven that Putin's government issued a direct order, which is, of course, an impossible bar to cross (unless some of these men are going to talk and the order was in writing).

What we do know is that the Russian state explained tanks and other military-grade equipment and active duty soldiers in Ukraine as being on holiday and they were allowed, apparently to take this with them on their holidays. We are not talking about a toy here which you could get at every streetcorner :?

So what is your position on this? I have three options for you:
- The Russian state is not involved but is extremely careless with its military equipment: extreme negligence;
- The Russian state supplied the BUK to the Ukrainian fighters which had limited training on this complex machine and let to the MH17 shot down extreme negligence;
- The Russian state ordered these Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine and supplied the BUK with which the MH17 was shot down: manslaughter.

So which is it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:37 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
US and EU expel scores of Russian diplomats over Skripal attack

US orders expulsion of 60 officials as 14 EU member states plus Ukraine announce coordinated response to nerve agent poisoning.

The US, the EU, Canada and Ukraine have ordered the expulsion of dozens of Russian diplomats in response to the nerve agent attack in the UK, in a show of solidarity that represents the biggest concerted blow to Russian intelligence networks in the west since the cold war.

More than 100 Russian diplomats in western countries alleged to be spies are being told to return to Moscow, in a coordinated response to the use of a chemical weapon in the 4 March attempted murder of Sergei Skripal, a former Russian intelligence official, and his daughter, Yulia, in Salisbury.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... pal-attack

And they're gone.


As I predicted in the other thread. The West is allying over Russia's overreach and we no longer actually care if we even have diplomatic relations with Russia anymore.

The sooner we turn Russia into a pariah state, the better. The reactions from our local butt hurt Russian trolls will be nothing short of priceless.

This is where your s**thead dear leader Putin has taken you, so enjoy the ride.


Do a little reading about definitions before calling yourself Nostradamus.

A pariah is an outcast, and the West is not the World, and if the West wants to minimize or cut diplomatic ties to Russia, it's their right and you guys will be responsible for the negative effects you will suffer because of it. Just be carefull your little "west" doesn't end up up as collective pariahs.

Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.

Btw, the Russian Foreign Ministry has a nice little poll, which US Consulate do you think we should close in response to the US closing the Russian one in Seattle?
I voted for Vladivostok :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:56 pm

tu204 wrote:
Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.


Are you sure about that? The western countries are kind of important to Russia and thus the Putin regime and his oligarchs.

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/nl/profile/ ... us/#Export
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.


Are you sure about that? The western countries are kind of important to Russia and thus the Putin regime and his oligarchs.

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/nl/profile/ ... us/#Export


Yah, pretty sure.

My own opinion is have as little dealings with the west as possible, the better. Business is business. Thats it. Sell goods, buy goods. Minimal diplomatic contacts, absolute minimal cultural contacts and financial contacts. Even during the height of the Cold War there was plenty of trade between the USSR and the West.

What I personally would am sick of is the remnants of the 90's. Russia got tied in to western financial hooks and markets and plus all the bullshit "western values". Took the 2000's to get rid of the last one, and work is being done to get rid of the first.
One of my personal beefs with Putin is that this is done slowly. It is being done and slowly moving in the right direction, but if especially after the current conflict with the west, there was someone that would have taken more abrupt steps to severing all non-essencial ties with the west, he or she would have had my vote, and not Putin.

As far as oligarghs go, well in my view, your regime is doing exactly what Putin is trying to accomplish in the end. To me it seems that the western regimes' actions in the form of personal sanctions and possibilities of seizure of wealth of the dumbass oligarghs stupid enough to keep their assets in the west is more than he could have ever done. In reality, all he did was declare in 2014 and prolong recently an amnesty on offshore funds brought back into Russia.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:57 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.


Are you sure about that? The western countries are kind of important to Russia and thus the Putin regime and his oligarchs.

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/nl/profile/ ... us/#Export


Yah, pretty sure.

My own opinion is have as little dealings with the west as possible, the better. Business is business. Thats it. Sell goods, buy goods. Minimal diplomatic contacts, absolute minimal cultural contacts and financial contacts. Even during the height of the Cold War there was plenty of trade between the USSR and the West.

What I personally would am sick of is the remnants of the 90's. Russia got tied in to western financial hooks and markets and plus all the bullshit "western values". Took the 2000's to get rid of the last one, and work is being done to get rid of the first.
One of my personal beefs with Putin is that this is done slowly. It is being done and slowly moving in the right direction, but if especially after the current conflict with the west, there was someone that would have taken more abrupt steps to severing all non-essencial ties with the west, he or she would have had my vote, and not Putin.

As far as oligarghs go, well in my view, your regime is doing exactly what Putin is trying to accomplish in the end. To me it seems that the western regimes' actions in the form of personal sanctions and possibilities of seizure of wealth of the dumbass oligarghs stupid enough to keep their assets in the west is more than he could have ever done. In reality, all he did was declare in 2014 and prolong recently an amnesty on offshore funds brought back into Russia.


The sanctions for oligarchs are carefully crafted to get the influencers influence the Putin regime, they keep their money in the west, because of the uncertainty of Russian society, I would do the same if I were them.

Let's not even do business anymore. Just have the wall back up, but then at the Russian border. If you don't believe in "western values", fine, human rights don't mean a thing for Putin's regime, so I guess that is one of the "western values" there as is the rule of law.

I do not want to go that road again, Russians in a big self-imposed prison, but that is not my choice, but the choice of the Russians by letting the Putin regime govern them in his autocratic style. You had an experiment for 80 odd years, it didn't end well for Russia, but if you want to, it is your choice.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:03 pm

BTW tu204, Russia is part of the world, you can turn your back to the world, but in the end, Russia stays part of it. We are moving towards a so-called type 1 civilization if we make it that is, the world as one.

The EU, International Courts, the internet all examples of moving towards this and in the end Russia can't be left behind and will give up its misguided pride to join the world community. But heck, I am an optimist, so what do I know ;)

Many happy landings to you, Tu204.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Are you sure about that? The western countries are kind of important to Russia and thus the Putin regime and his oligarchs.

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/nl/profile/ ... us/#Export


Yah, pretty sure.

My own opinion is have as little dealings with the west as possible, the better. Business is business. Thats it. Sell goods, buy goods. Minimal diplomatic contacts, absolute minimal cultural contacts and financial contacts. Even during the height of the Cold War there was plenty of trade between the USSR and the West.

What I personally would am sick of is the remnants of the 90's. Russia got tied in to western financial hooks and markets and plus all the bullshit "western values". Took the 2000's to get rid of the last one, and work is being done to get rid of the first.
One of my personal beefs with Putin is that this is done slowly. It is being done and slowly moving in the right direction, but if especially after the current conflict with the west, there was someone that would have taken more abrupt steps to severing all non-essencial ties with the west, he or she would have had my vote, and not Putin.

As far as oligarghs go, well in my view, your regime is doing exactly what Putin is trying to accomplish in the end. To me it seems that the western regimes' actions in the form of personal sanctions and possibilities of seizure of wealth of the dumbass oligarghs stupid enough to keep their assets in the west is more than he could have ever done. In reality, all he did was declare in 2014 and prolong recently an amnesty on offshore funds brought back into Russia.


The sanctions for oligarchs are carefully crafted to get the influencers influence the Putin regime, they keep their money in the west, because of the uncertainty of Russian society, I would do the same if I were them.

Let's not even do business anymore. Just have the wall back up, but then at the Russian border. If you don't believe in "western values", fine, human rights don't mean a thing for Putin's regime, so I guess that is one of the "western values" there as is the rule of law.

I do not want to go that road again, Russians in a big self-imposed prison, but that is not my choice, but the choice of the Russians by letting the Putin regime govern them in his autocratic style. You had an experiment for 80 odd years, it didn't end well for Russia, but if you want to, it is your choice.


1) Carefully crafted of whom? For what purpose then? Maybe of course the intent was so have them influence Putin, but in the end they, and others ended up bringing their cash and business interest back into Russia. With no effect to Russian policy.

This tells me that either you carefully crafted your regime's sanctions to have Russian oligarghs think twice about keeping their assets in the west, or you guys are agents of the Kremlin. Or incompetent.

2) Let's not do business? Well, I am pretty sure we can live without each other, it will be not be easy, but possible. You guys won't have much gas, for one. We won't have some things and will have to get them from the east instead, so it is doable. Human rights? I feel absolutely no infringment on my rights when in Russia. Zero. Your ultra-liberal values though is what I have a problem with. It is not for us. Deal with it, it is your problems, not ours. Keep trying to lecture us on "your way is the right way", and the rift becomes larger.

3) I don't want to go down that road again either. But either we live with each other as equals, or we don't live with each other. That is my view. I have probably lived in more places than you, travelled the World more than you and I do not see Russia as a prison in any way, shape or form. But if you guys, incited by your regime keep this view up, this will make Russians want to do even less with you. Did you see the voter turnouts at Russian Embassies abroad? Like in New York when people waited 3 hours to vote? Biggest turnout ever. And results at Embassies abroad are a good 10% more for Putin than inside Russia. Why? Because Russians, even those who do not live in Russia realise the ammount of Rusophobia, are sick of it and this is their way of protesting. You don't like Putin too much, but if I was to print your posts out and hand them out in the streets of Russia, you would probably do more to boost Putin's rating than any of his campaigners ever could.

3.a) The 80 year experiment didn't end well for Russia because of: a misplanned centralised economy. We have a market economy now, so that is not a problem. Plus we are not feeding and arming half the World just because they say they are Communist. Russia is not a closed country, so there is no desire for something "western", the majority saw what the "west" is.
The collapse of the Soviet Union didn't have much to do with the conflict with the west if the Soviet leadership would have got their heads out their asses and saw what was going on and acted accordingly.

P.S.Stupid as it may seem now, but all the stupid Soviet "bans" on western music, jeans and other bullshit actually increased social unrest and played a large role in it's demise. When you forbid someone from something, they will want it much more, even if it is garbage. Let them see what it is, let them go there, let them buy it and the result isn't quite the same.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BTW tu204, Russia is part of the world, you can turn your back to the world, but in the end, Russia stays part of it. We are moving towards a so-called type 1 civilization if we make it that is, the world as one.

The EU, International Courts, the internet all examples of moving towards this and in the end Russia can't be left behind and will give up its misguided pride to join the world community. But heck, I am an optimist, so what do I know ;)

Many happy landings to you, Tu204.


Hey, next time I'm going through Amsterdam I'll be sure to hit you up with a PM, maybe have a couple pints and have a nice discussion and debate. ;)

I am not saying that Russia is turning or should be turning it's back on the World, I am saying that since the Cold War ended, the west apparently didn't get the message and keeps on going in overdrive. Therefore Russia has no other option than to react to the western regimes' provocation and start shit of our own.
To me, it really is that simple. I really do like history (and trust me, being where I am with internet access so shitty you can't even get limited YouTube, you do a lot of reading), and I see many things as cause and effect.

Well I clearly see a cause and effect sequence that started since the collapse of the Soviet Union, multiplied by a factor of X during the 90's and we have what he have now. International politics back from Iraq v2.0+Kosovo have just been cause and effect with the western regimes causing shit, and Russia coming back with the same thing of their own.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Jorg747
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:06 am

Putiny think he tough for Novichoking old spy + daughter, but Sergei on street know better, Putin not a real man because he afraid to face his own people:

Image
Image

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-43562562/russia-fire-protester-spoke-on-the-phone-to-dying-wife
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:20 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW tu204, Russia is part of the world, you can turn your back to the world, but in the end, Russia stays part of it. We are moving towards a so-called type 1 civilization if we make it that is, the world as one.

The EU, International Courts, the internet all examples of moving towards this and in the end Russia can't be left behind and will give up its misguided pride to join the world community. But heck, I am an optimist, so what do I know ;)

Many happy landings to you, Tu204.


Hey, next time I'm going through Amsterdam I'll be sure to hit you up with a PM, maybe have a couple pints and have a nice discussion and debate. ;)

I am not saying that Russia is turning or should be turning it's back on the World, I am saying that since the Cold War ended, the west apparently didn't get the message and keeps on going in overdrive. Therefore Russia has no other option than to react to the western regimes' provocation and start shit of our own.
To me, it really is that simple. I really do like history (and trust me, being where I am with internet access so shitty you can't even get limited YouTube, you do a lot of reading), and I see many things as cause and effect.

Well I clearly see a cause and effect sequence that started since the collapse of the Soviet Union, multiplied by a factor of X during the 90's and we have what he have now. International politics back from Iraq v2.0+Kosovo have just been cause and effect with the western regimes causing shit, and Russia coming back with the same thing of their own.


Sure, send me a PM next time you will be in Amsterdam.

My analysis is that many people live in the past: they demand Russia to be treated as a superpower with the fair/respect but it is not and thus not treated as such. That causes a disconnect and the Putin regime is exploiting that for internal reasons to stay in power. Russians have a bad rep in the west because of this and that should be a concern to us all.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FreequentFlier
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:35 am

tu204 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


As I predicted in the other thread. The West is allying over Russia's overreach and we no longer actually care if we even have diplomatic relations with Russia anymore.

The sooner we turn Russia into a pariah state, the better. The reactions from our local butt hurt Russian trolls will be nothing short of priceless.

This is where your s**thead dear leader Putin has taken you, so enjoy the ride.


Do a little reading about definitions before calling yourself Nostradamus.

A pariah is an outcast, and the West is not the World, and if the West wants to minimize or cut diplomatic ties to Russia, it's their right and you guys will be responsible for the negative effects you will suffer because of it. Just be carefull your little "west" doesn't end up up as collective pariahs.

Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.

Btw, the Russian Foreign Ministry has a nice little poll, which US Consulate do you think we should close in response to the US closing the Russian one in Seattle?
I voted for Vladivostok :lol:


You act like we care. We should pre-emptively pull all diplomats out of Russia. Having "diplomatic relations" has got us nothing. Time to cut the cord.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:23 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
tu204 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

As I predicted in the other thread. The West is allying over Russia's overreach and we no longer actually care if we even have diplomatic relations with Russia anymore.

The sooner we turn Russia into a pariah state, the better. The reactions from our local butt hurt Russian trolls will be nothing short of priceless.

This is where your s**thead dear leader Putin has taken you, so enjoy the ride.


Do a little reading about definitions before calling yourself Nostradamus.

A pariah is an outcast, and the West is not the World, and if the West wants to minimize or cut diplomatic ties to Russia, it's their right and you guys will be responsible for the negative effects you will suffer because of it. Just be carefull your little "west" doesn't end up up as collective pariahs.

Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.

Btw, the Russian Foreign Ministry has a nice little poll, which US Consulate do you think we should close in response to the US closing the Russian one in Seattle?
I voted for Vladivostok :lol:


You act like we care. We should pre-emptively pull all diplomats out of Russia. Having "diplomatic relations" has got us nothing. Time to cut the cord.


Russia is too big to ignore, North Korea you can ignore, more or less. So not advisable I would say.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Do a little reading about definitions before calling yourself Nostradamus.

A pariah is an outcast, and the West is not the World, and if the West wants to minimize or cut diplomatic ties to Russia, it's their right and you guys will be responsible for the negative effects you will suffer because of it. Just be carefull your little "west" doesn't end up up as collective pariahs.

Nobody in the rest of the World other Japan has taken any actions and since 2010 the rest of the World is who Russia is developing relations with. My opinion? West don't wanna deal, fine.

Btw, the Russian Foreign Ministry has a nice little poll, which US Consulate do you think we should close in response to the US closing the Russian one in Seattle?
I voted for Vladivostok :lol:


You act like we care. We should pre-emptively pull all diplomats out of Russia. Having "diplomatic relations" has got us nothing. Time to cut the cord.


Russia is too big to ignore, North Korea you can ignore, more or less. So not advisable I would say.


Hey dutchy, I haven't been given my briefing yet. Have you? Has anyone been briefed as to how this has been pinned on the Russian government?

:lol:
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:35 am

Freakysh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

You act like we care. We should pre-emptively pull all diplomats out of Russia. Having "diplomatic relations" has got us nothing. Time to cut the cord.


Russia is too big to ignore, North Korea you can ignore, more or less. So not advisable I would say.


Hey dutchy, I haven't been given my briefing yet. Have you? Has anyone been briefed as to how this has been pinned on the Russian government?

:lol:


... yes. We've all had our briefings, except for you. Theresa May told us she thinks you smell bad and she's not telling you anything.
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:47 am

Jorg747 wrote:
Putiny think he tough for Novichoking old spy + daughter, but Sergei on street know better, Putin not a real man because he afraid to face his own people:

Image
Image

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-43562562/russia-fire-protester-spoke-on-the-phone-to-dying-wife


Guess what - he actually was in Kemerovo and talked to local people. Would Therese May or Trump do the same?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jorg747 wrote:
Putiny think he tough for Novichoking old spy + daughter, but Sergei on street know better, Putin not a real man because he afraid to face his own people:

Image
Image

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-43562562/russia-fire-protester-spoke-on-the-phone-to-dying-wife


Guess what - he actually was in Kemerovo and talked to local people. Would Therese May or Trump do the same?


Guess what, google is your friend and you would know the answer to this would be yes, instead of these insinuations.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
Well, if you believe everyone in Russia can just walk out of a military installation with a BUK missile, then yes, one could argue that this is a case about individual and the Russian state isn't involved at all. If you argue that the Russian state is responsible for its BUK missiles then one could argue that the Russian state bears at least some of the responsibilities. What we do know is that the persons of interest have a military background, if they were actively serving, I don't know. A criminal court case is about individuals, not the state unless it is proven that Putin's government issued a direct order, which is, of course, an impossible bar to cross (unless some of these men are going to talk and the order was in writing).

What we do know is that the Russian state explained tanks and other military-grade equipment and active duty soldiers in Ukraine as being on holiday and they were allowed, apparently to take this with them on their holidays. We are not talking about a toy here which you could get at every streetcorner :?

So what is your position on this? I have three options for you:
- The Russian state is not involved but is extremely careless with its military equipment: extreme negligence;
- The Russian state supplied the BUK to the Ukrainian fighters which had limited training on this complex machine and let to the MH17 shot down extreme negligence;
- The Russian state ordered these Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine and supplied the BUK with which the MH17 was shot down: manslaughter.

So which is it?


Sure - now you start to see how really complex and subtle these civil conflicts can be. And processes within it can't be described with just 3 options. A similar question about Middle East - where did Syrian rebels and ISIS get their stuff from? Generally, from Syrian or Iraqi military, captured in combat or bought from local divisions. Same is true about Ukraine - Donetsk and Ukrainian officers and military leaders went to the same schools, speak the same language and have each other in social networks, cell phone contacts, etc. Given corruption in Ukrainian military - deals were reached (where a Ukrainian captain was simply selling a few tanks and said they are "destroyed"). Earlier - there were instances of Donetsk people starting up WW2 era T-34s that were put as monuments, they took equipment from then-Ukrainian military divisions stationed in Donetsk. Later - there were Ilovaysk, Debaltsevo where Ukrainians suffered humiliating defeats, losing thousands dead and hundreds of equipment pieces (tanks, armored vehicles, artillery).

Speaking of your options and MH-17 - I am more inclined towards #2 (that one that has Ukrainian "fighters" in it). Except it was not Russian, but still Soviet state, and Ukrainian state inherited them. From that point on - your statement is accurate. Ukrainian air defense crews have too little experience and expertise operating such machinery. Once they actually tried to deploy a few units someone just pressed that big red button (not knowing what they are doing of course). This is what happened to a Tupolev in Crimean region in 2001 after all - it was hit by an incompetent Ukrainian air defense crew during military training.

And even though you know my attitude towards today's Kiev regime, I am still not inclined to accuse their highest leadership in it (without some proof of such an order at least). As of now I view it as an extreme negligence of lower ranking Ukrainian officers who got their hands onto an old air defense system. And the biggest thing of course - they did not close airspace of fear of losing flyover money.
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:14 am

Freakysh wrote:
Hey dutchy, I haven't been given my briefing yet. Have you? Has anyone been briefed as to how this has been pinned on the Russian government?

:lol:


What briefing do you need? They told you - "Extremely likely Russia, and no other explanation exists". What else do you need? And if you need more - you aren't demonstrating your solidarity. :lol:
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:16 am

Jouhou wrote:

... yes. We've all had our briefings, except for you. Theresa May told us she thinks you smell bad and she's not telling you anything.


Did she give any proof? Or was it just a quick PowerPoint presentation depicting how bad the smell was? :lol:
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

... yes. We've all had our briefings, except for you. Theresa May told us she thinks you smell bad and she's not telling you anything.


Did she give any proof? Or was it just a quick PowerPoint presentation depicting how bad the smell was? :lol:


She showed us the lab results from a sample they took from him. The quantitative analysis results show an abundance of particles of a rare, complex, and aromatic substance that has only previously been associated with a select few individuals.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:05 am

Jouhou wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

... yes. We've all had our briefings, except for you. Theresa May told us she thinks you smell bad and she's not telling you anything.


Did she give any proof? Or was it just a quick PowerPoint presentation depicting how bad the smell was? :lol:


She showed us the lab results from a sample they took from him. The quantitative analysis results show an abundance of particles of a rare, complex, and aromatic substance that has only previously been associated with a select few individuals.


So you mocking me means there's no proof it was the Russians which makes all of this a sham.

Bravo :lol:
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:14 am

Jouhou wrote:
She showed us the lab results from a sample they took from him. The quantitative analysis results show an abundance of particles of a rare, complex, and aromatic substance that has only previously been associated with a select few individuals.


Hmm - the international organization handling these things though said they need at least 3 weeks for even preliminary analysis. I am wondering what "lab" that was.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well, if you believe everyone in Russia can just walk out of a military installation with a BUK missile, then yes, one could argue that this is a case about individual and the Russian state isn't involved at all. If you argue that the Russian state is responsible for its BUK missiles then one could argue that the Russian state bears at least some of the responsibilities. What we do know is that the persons of interest have a military background, if they were actively serving, I don't know. A criminal court case is about individuals, not the state unless it is proven that Putin's government issued a direct order, which is, of course, an impossible bar to cross (unless some of these men are going to talk and the order was in writing).

What we do know is that the Russian state explained tanks and other military-grade equipment and active duty soldiers in Ukraine as being on holiday and they were allowed, apparently to take this with them on their holidays. We are not talking about a toy here which you could get at every streetcorner :?

So what is your position on this? I have three options for you:
- The Russian state is not involved but is extremely careless with its military equipment: extreme negligence;
- The Russian state supplied the BUK to the Ukrainian fighters which had limited training on this complex machine and let to the MH17 shot down extreme negligence;
- The Russian state ordered these Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine and supplied the BUK with which the MH17 was shot down: manslaughter.

So which is it?


Sure - now you start to see how really complex and subtle these civil conflicts can be. And processes within it can't be described with just 3 options. A similar question about Middle East - where did Syrian rebels and ISIS get their stuff from? Generally, from Syrian or Iraqi military, captured in combat or bought from local divisions. Same is true about Ukraine - Donetsk and Ukrainian officers and military leaders went to the same schools, speak the same language and have each other in social networks, cell phone contacts, etc. Given corruption in Ukrainian military - deals were reached (where a Ukrainian captain was simply selling a few tanks and said they are "destroyed"). Earlier - there were instances of Donetsk people starting up WW2 era T-34s that were put as monuments, they took equipment from then-Ukrainian military divisions stationed in Donetsk. Later - there were Ilovaysk, Debaltsevo where Ukrainians suffered humiliating defeats, losing thousands dead and hundreds of equipment pieces (tanks, armored vehicles, artillery).

Speaking of your options and MH-17 - I am more inclined towards #2 (that one that has Ukrainian "fighters" in it). Except it was not Russian, but still Soviet state, and Ukrainian state inherited them. From that point on - your statement is accurate. Ukrainian air defense crews have too little experience and expertise operating such machinery. Once they actually tried to deploy a few units someone just pressed that big red button (not knowing what they are doing of course). This is what happened to a Tupolev in Crimean region in 2001 after all - it was hit by an incompetent Ukrainian air defense crew during military training.

And even though you know my attitude towards today's Kiev regime, I am still not inclined to accuse their highest leadership in it (without some proof of such an order at least). As of now I view it as an extreme negligence of lower ranking Ukrainian officers who got their hands onto an old air defense system. And the biggest thing of course - they did not close airspace of fear of losing flyover money.


Ah yes, trying to shift blame and put up a smoke screen. So you say 3 options are way too simple and yet you feel comfortable enough to chose 1 and turn it around towards Ukraine. And simply bypassing all the evidence there is and just applying common sense. The OVSE observed Russian military equipment not used by Ukraine, exclusively used by Russia. Like a said, all a smoke screen by you.

If you want to compare the MH17 shoot down with anything, then compare it to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Sukh ... er_attacks

3 airlines shot down in Georgia, a country which was destabilized by Russia and the rebbels shot down the airliners.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:44 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
She showed us the lab results from a sample they took from him. The quantitative analysis results show an abundance of particles of a rare, complex, and aromatic substance that has only previously been associated with a select few individuals.


Hmm - the international organization handling these things though said they need at least 3 weeks for even preliminary analysis. I am wondering what "lab" that was.


But seriously, it doesn't take 3 weeks to perform qualitative and quantitative analyses. If there is an unusual element in the compound it can frequently be traced back to a geographic region. Now that I don't know how long it would take. Especially with the lethality of the substance in question.
 
GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:35 am

Most concentrated nerve agent samples (that one developed in the USSR and which the Russian government said it destroyed all stocks of), found at the doorstep of the ex spy;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... police-say

Which would explain how that police officer was also affected, he went to the house after they were found on that nearby park bench, though he was released from hospital last week, the prognosis for the ex Spy and his daughter does not look so good.

Putin seems to delight not just in assassinating ex Spies but doing so in a slow and painful manner, remember the radiation poisoning in London in 2006, the contamination trail included two BA 767's which had been on London-Moscow flights.
Also then, the usual denials but also sniggering and veiled threats to others from Russia.
Though the two preps who met the assassinated agent were traced, one is now a Russian MP.
Which goes to prove the old adage, that a Police State is one which is run by criminals.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:49 am

GDB wrote:
Also then, the usual denials but also sniggering and veiled threats to others from Russia


The British authorities have demonstrated their inability to ensure the safety of Russian citizens more than once. The glaring examples include the poisoning of former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko, the death of businessmen Badri Patarkatsishvili and Alexander Perepelichny under unclear circumstances, the mysterious “suicide” of Boris Berezovsky and the strangling of Berezovsky’s business partner Nikolai Glushkov, and lastly, the recent attempt on the lives and health of Sergey Skripal and his daughter Julia."

This should be used for dictionary definition of "chutzpah"
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:12 am

GDB wrote:
Most concentrated nerve agent samples (that one developed in the USSR and which the Russian government said it destroyed all stocks of), found at the doorstep of the ex spy;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... police-say

Which would explain how that police officer was also affected, he went to the house after they were found on that nearby park bench, though he was released from hospital last week, the prognosis for the ex Spy and his daughter does not look so good.

Putin seems to delight not just in assassinating ex Spies but doing so in a slow and painful manner, remember the radiation poisoning in London in 2006, the contamination trail included two BA 767's which had been on London-Moscow flights.
Also then, the usual denials but also sniggering and veiled threats to others from Russia.
Though the two preps who met the assassinated agent were traced, one is now a Russian MP.
Which goes to prove the old adage, that a Police State is one which is run by criminals.


Cool story bro :thumbsup:
Needs more proof dragons
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:34 am

Freakysh wrote:
GDB wrote:
Most concentrated nerve agent samples (that one developed in the USSR and which the Russian government said it destroyed all stocks of), found at the doorstep of the ex spy;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... police-say

Which would explain how that police officer was also affected, he went to the house after they were found on that nearby park bench, though he was released from hospital last week, the prognosis for the ex Spy and his daughter does not look so good.

Putin seems to delight not just in assassinating ex Spies but doing so in a slow and painful manner, remember the radiation poisoning in London in 2006, the contamination trail included two BA 767's which had been on London-Moscow flights.
Also then, the usual denials but also sniggering and veiled threats to others from Russia.
Though the two preps who met the assassinated agent were traced, one is now a Russian MP.
Which goes to prove the old adage, that a Police State is one which is run by criminals.


Cool story bro :thumbsup:
Needs more proof dragons



We really don't need middle aged edgelords in here. You want to "question everything", go watch some infowars. You'll be more amusing when you're ranting about how THEY are making our frogs gay.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:36 am

Jouhou wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
GDB wrote:
Most concentrated nerve agent samples (that one developed in the USSR and which the Russian government said it destroyed all stocks of), found at the doorstep of the ex spy;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... police-say

Which would explain how that police officer was also affected, he went to the house after they were found on that nearby park bench, though he was released from hospital last week, the prognosis for the ex Spy and his daughter does not look so good.

Putin seems to delight not just in assassinating ex Spies but doing so in a slow and painful manner, remember the radiation poisoning in London in 2006, the contamination trail included two BA 767's which had been on London-Moscow flights.
Also then, the usual denials but also sniggering and veiled threats to others from Russia.
Though the two preps who met the assassinated agent were traced, one is now a Russian MP.
Which goes to prove the old adage, that a Police State is one which is run by criminals.


Cool story bro :thumbsup:
Needs more proof dragons



We really don't need middle aged edgelords in here. You want to "question everything", go watch some infowars. You'll be more amusing when you're ranting about how THEY are making our frogs gay.


Question everything?

I've only had one question sweetie. And I can't even get a straight answer to that. Let's jump that hurdle first before I even consider questioning everything.
 
GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:21 am

Yes Freakysh, my employer just loves to have to ground two of it's aircraft for the hell of it, finding traces of the same radiation source that killed the ex FSB man, from tracing the movements of two Russians (one now a MP for Putin), who were in contact with the dead man just before he fell ill. We do that thing all of time, for shits and giggles.

As Jouhou mentioned, here's the man for you, in a rare UK TV appearance, off you trot, you can even buy some of his 'brain supplements' on his website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc8DEpM4-6A

Now let the adults talk. (To question things, it really helps to the have faintest clue about what you are talking about in the first place, unfashionable as that might be).
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:36 am

GDB wrote:
Yes Freakysh, my employer just loves to have to ground two of it's aircraft for the hell of it, finding traces of the same radiation source that killed the ex FSB man, from tracing the movements of two Russians (one now a MP for Putin), who were in contact with the dead man just before he fell ill. We do that thing all of time, for shits and giggles.

As Jouhou mentioned, here's the man for you, in a rare UK TV appearance, off you trot, you can even buy some of his 'brain supplements' on his website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc8DEpM4-6A

Now let the adults talk. (To question things, it really helps to the have faintest clue about what you are talking about in the first place, unfashionable as that might be).


:lol:

So sophisticated and important sounding you are.

Novichok isn't radioactive, sorry too burst your bubble on that one. Oh yeah, I'm sure there were traces of it everywhere. The culprits would have been flashing it around all over the place. Ironic that you mention it helps to have the faintest clue of what you're talking about. :lol:

You sound like you really are in the thick of it all :thumbsup:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:36 am

Freakysh wrote:
I've only had one question sweetie. And I can't even get a straight answer to that.


Clearly, there is no proof.

Yet somehow, the UK Government has persuaded dozens of other countries to expel Russian diplomats for no good reason. :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:40 am

scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
I've only had one question sweetie. And I can't even get a straight answer to that.


Clearly, there is no proof.

Yet somehow, the UK Government has persuaded dozens of other countries to expel Russian diplomats for no good reason. :scratchchin:


Plenty joined the war in Iraq. Don't get too excited with that line of reasoning
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:41 am

Freakysh wrote:
:lol:

So sophisticated and important sounding you are.

Novichok isn't radioactive, sorry too burst your bubble on that one. Oh yeah, I'm sure there were traces of it everywhere. The culprits would have been flashing it around all over the place. Ironic that you mention it helps to have the faintest clue of what you're talking about. :lol:

You sound like you really are in the thick of it all :thumbsup:


You missed his point completely, but keep up the excellent work. :laughing:

Image
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:47 am

scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
:lol:

So sophisticated and important sounding you are.

Novichok isn't radioactive, sorry too burst your bubble on that one. Oh yeah, I'm sure there were traces of it everywhere. The culprits would have been flashing it around all over the place. Ironic that you mention it helps to have the faintest clue of what you're talking about. :lol:

You sound like you really are in the thick of it all :thumbsup:


You missed his point completely, but keep up the excellent work. :laughing:

Image


I get what he's saying. Yes, you don't just ground two planes for no reason.

Well you do if a government is desperate for some elaborate story line. It proves nothing.

My focus was on the fact that he mentioned it helps if you have the faintest clue, yet in the same post mentions radioactivity. :lol:

You think you're one step ahead, don't you scbriml, such a sharp mind. Like that other brainiac sheik, thinking he had me check mate with bringing up the two types of people in the world thing. :lol:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:31 pm

Freakysh wrote:
I get what he's saying. Yes, you don't just ground two planes for no reason.

Well you do if a government is desperate for some elaborate story line. It proves nothing.

My focus was on the fact that he mentioned it helps if you have the faintest clue, yet in the same post mentions radioactivity.


You're just embarrassing yourself now. He's referring to the poisoning of Litvinenko by radioactive Polonium and the fact that BA had to take two 767s out of service.

But carry on swinging and missing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
I get what he's saying. Yes, you don't just ground two planes for no reason.

Well you do if a government is desperate for some elaborate story line. It proves nothing.

My focus was on the fact that he mentioned it helps if you have the faintest clue, yet in the same post mentions radioactivity.


You're just embarrassing yourself now. He's referring to the poisoning of Litvinenko by radioactive Polonium and the fact that BA had to take two 767s out of service.

But carry on swinging and missing.


Yes, the same isotope that killed Litvinenko, also found in places he had last been.

So two classes of WMD, nuclear and chemical, used in assassinations, of Russians in the UK that Putin did not like, of which could only be made with sophisticated equipment, which in both cases can be directly traced back to Russia.

I may be right in thinking that those two BA 767's were that first British aircraft to have to be decontaminated since the UK nuclear weapons tests of the 1950's but in 2006, these were civilian airliners, not RAF Valiant and Canberra aircraft.
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:12 pm

Jouhou wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
She showed us the lab results from a sample they took from him. The quantitative analysis results show an abundance of particles of a rare, complex, and aromatic substance that has only previously been associated with a select few individuals.


Hmm - the international organization handling these things though said they need at least 3 weeks for even preliminary analysis. I am wondering what "lab" that was.


But seriously, it doesn't take 3 weeks to perform qualitative and quantitative analyses. If there is an unusual element in the compound it can frequently be traced back to a geographic region. Now that I don't know how long it would take. Especially with the lethality of the substance in question.[/

Well - 3 weeks were the estimates provided by OPCW (organization for prohibition of chemical weapons) - an international organization mandated with such investigations. And if we assume British statements about the origin are true - this also raises questions: did they have samples, where they got them from, what are they doing with them, etc.
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:16 pm

scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
I've only had one question sweetie. And I can't even get a straight answer to that.


Clearly, there is no proof.

Yet somehow, the UK Government has persuaded dozens of other countries to expel Russian diplomats for no good reason. :scratchchin:


Of course there isn’t any reason - “high probability” in itself isn’t yet the reason, as some leaders pointed out. What’s in play here - is “European solidarity”. This is how modern European elite thinks and sees the world. The most prominent example - French president Macron. That one does nothing but expresses solidarity with anyone who’s next to him. Be it Putin, or even as cheap and petty crook as Ukrainian Poroshenko. He just doesn’t see it possible to form his own opinion.
 
GDB
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:28 pm

It's rather nice to be told that I am 'in the thick of it', one of my favorite satirical comedies, (when it first almost slipped out on BBC4 in 2005 I thought it could have been written just for me!) But I have never appeared or been involved in any way, other than being a fan. If that's what you meant Freakysh?

Come September it will be 40 years since a very bizarre assassination was carried out, in London, by the then Warsaw Pact, a story that sounds like fiction but was very real;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov
 
anrec80
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
I get what he's saying. Yes, you don't just ground two planes for no reason.

Well you do if a government is desperate for some elaborate story line. It proves nothing.

My focus was on the fact that he mentioned it helps if you have the faintest clue, yet in the same post mentions radioactivity.


You're just embarrassing yourself now. He's referring to the poisoning of Litvinenko by radioactive Polonium and the fact that BA had to take two 767s out of service.

But carry on swinging and missing.


Well - that time they at least tried to investigate something. Now - just blah-blah-blah. I just admire the request to Russians to explain how did the stuff get into the UK. Isn’t it the question for British authorities - it’s their responsibilities after all. Is UK what now - a new Ukraine? A failed state that doesn’t control anything, including what’s going on inside the country?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:57 pm

anrec80 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
I get what he's saying. Yes, you don't just ground two planes for no reason.

Well you do if a government is desperate for some elaborate story line. It proves nothing.

My focus was on the fact that he mentioned it helps if you have the faintest clue, yet in the same post mentions radioactivity.


You're just embarrassing yourself now. He's referring to the poisoning of Litvinenko by radioactive Polonium and the fact that BA had to take two 767s out of service.

But carry on swinging and missing.


Well - that time they at least tried to investigate something. Now - just blah-blah-blah. I just admire the request to Russians to explain how did the stuff get into the UK. Isn’t it the question for British authorities - it’s their responsibilities after all. Is UK what now - a new Ukraine? A failed state that doesn’t control anything, including what’s going on inside the country?


The UK isn't an autocratic regime you know, much more free society, but then again Moscow did have some bombings around the time Putin needed to be elected the first time, oh sorry, those were committed by the FSB of course, they don't count. The Brittish authorities now believe he was poisoned in his own home, as many as 130 people could have been exposed to this poison.

About 250 counter-terrorism detectives continue to work around the clock on the investigation, supported by a full range of experts and partners. Officers continue to trawl through more than 5,000 hours of CCTV and examine more than 1,350 exhibits that have been seized. Approximately and hundreds of statements taken.


source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... police-say
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:04 pm

Freakysh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
I've only had one question sweetie. And I can't even get a straight answer to that.


Clearly, there is no proof.

Yet somehow, the UK Government has persuaded dozens of other countries to expel Russian diplomats for no good reason. :scratchchin:


Plenty joined the war in Iraq. Don't get too excited with that line of reasoning


Plenty? Not really, lots of countries declined the opportunity including many EU members (shamefully my country provided political support, not military support though). So it is a clear sign that there is more than just a rumor. (But I do understand and applauded your failed way to question everything)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Freakysh
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Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Clearly, there is no proof.

Yet somehow, the UK Government has persuaded dozens of other countries to expel Russian diplomats for no good reason. :scratchchin:


Plenty joined the war in Iraq. Don't get too excited with that line of reasoning


Plenty? Not really, lots of countries declined the opportunity including many EU members (shamefully my country provided political support, not military support though). So it is a clear sign that there is more than just a rumor. (But I do understand and applauded your failed way to question everything)


40 countries is plenty. But you are right, many back then did openly not agree. The political climate has evolved from those initial days of testing using a dodgy premise for political means. I've not doubt that the world has learnt from that mistake, and not in a postive way.

Anyway, so far we have had added to the "evidence" some obscure fact from the Litvinenko case that really has no bearing in the case before us. And also that this may have effected up to 130 people. Still can't see the connection to the Russian government.

When there is, I've no problem with the world going hell for leather against the Russians. For the time being, I see no harm about being sceptical and holding the accusers to account. Amazed that people are so sensitive about being asked why they believe something, what's the big deal?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6691
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Freakysh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Freakysh wrote:

Plenty joined the war in Iraq. Don't get too excited with that line of reasoning


Plenty? Not really, lots of countries declined the opportunity including many EU members (shamefully my country provided political support, not military support though). So it is a clear sign that there is more than just a rumor. (But I do understand and applauded your failed way to question everything)


40 countries is plenty. But you are right, many back then did openly not agree. The political climate has evolved from those initial days of testing using a dodgy premise for political means. I've not doubt that the world has learnt from that mistake, and not in a postive way.

Anyway, so far we have had added to the "evidence" some obscure fact from the Litvinenko case that really has no bearing in the case before us. And also that this may have effected up to 130 people. Still can't see the connection to the Russian government.

When there is, I've no problem with the world going hell for leather against the Russians. For the time being, I see no harm about being sceptical and holding the accusers to account. Amazed that people are so sensitive about being asked why they believe something, what's the big deal?


With all do respect, somehow I doubt that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Freakysh
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:49 am

Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Plenty? Not really, lots of countries declined the opportunity including many EU members (shamefully my country provided political support, not military support though). So it is a clear sign that there is more than just a rumor. (But I do understand and applauded your failed way to question everything)


40 countries is plenty. But you are right, many back then did openly not agree. The political climate has evolved from those initial days of testing using a dodgy premise for political means. I've not doubt that the world has learnt from that mistake, and not in a postive way.

Anyway, so far we have had added to the "evidence" some obscure fact from the Litvinenko case that really has no bearing in the case before us. And also that this may have effected up to 130 people. Still can't see the connection to the Russian government.

When there is, I've no problem with the world going hell for leather against the Russians. For the time being, I see no harm about being sceptical and holding the accusers to account. Amazed that people are so sensitive about being asked why they believe something, what's the big deal?


With all do respect, somehow I doubt that.


Why? Find me one post where I've ever said the Russians didn't do it.

My position isn't that the Russians didn't do it, my position is show me why you know they did. I'm no fan of Russia, so don't care if they go down. I do care about due process and so called democratic righteous western governments being transparent to their own people. If they want to hold that holier than thou baton, then they should act accordingly.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6691
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Attempted spy assasination in UK?

Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:27 pm

What would be enough proof for you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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