Since the Billy Graham thread was locked, have at it.

* Bonus points for evidence!

** 250,000 Aadvantage pesos for proof beyond a reasonable doubt that "god" exists!!!

The overwhelming majority of the time, a believer cannot turn a believer into a nonbeliever, and vice versa.

Personally, I’m on the fence. If there is a God, why does He/She/It allow horrible things (like terrorism or mass shootings to happen)? Conversely if there isn’t a God of some sort, how do you explain the creation of the universe — even with the Big Bang Theory, I think something had to happen to cause the explosion.

So I say my prayers, hope there’s something beyond, etc., but neither I nor anyone can else say for sure that God does or doesn’t exist.

Marc

If you believe, then yes. If you do not, then no.

Some people fall in the unknown category and struggle with it for years.

This is a completely dumb topic.

I'm looking forward to all the edgelord comments that will certainly follow.

CCGPV wrote:

If you believe, then yes. If you do not, then no.

That sounds a lot like mental illness.

bagoldex wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

If you believe, then yes. If you do not, then no.

That sounds a lot like mental illness.

I'm dyslexic.

CCGPV wrote:

bagoldex wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

If you believe, then yes. If you do not, then no.

That sounds a lot like mental illness.

I'm dyslexic.

Dyslexia's not a form of mental illness.

bagoldex wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

bagoldex wrote:

That sounds a lot like mental illness.

I'm dyslexic.

Dyslexia's not a form of mental illness.

You are correct. Its a disorder.

CCGPV wrote:

bagoldex wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

I'm dyslexic.

Dyslexia's not a form of mental illness.

You are correct. Its a disorder.

Should people with dyslexia be able to own guns?

jetero wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

bagoldex wrote:

Dyslexia's not a form of mental illness.

You are correct. Its a disorder.

Should people with dyslexia be able to own guns?

Not that guy!

jetero wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

bagoldex wrote:

Dyslexia's not a form of mental illness.

You are correct. Its a disorder.

Should people with dyslexia be able to own guns?

Yes because its not a thought disorder like sociopathy or homicidal ideation.

CCGPV wrote:

jetero wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

You are correct. Its a disorder.

Should people with dyslexia be able to own guns?

Yes because its not a thought disorder like sociopathy or homicidal ideation.

Perhaps more a propos for this thread

God is a myth if you believe it to be a myth.

God is real if you believe it to be real.

I don't see the point of belittling those who believe & those who don't, which is all this thread is going to achieve.

Is Mythology a God ? Like the myth of Darwinian Evolution ? ? ?

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Like the myth of Darwinian Evolution ? ? ?

The proven fact of Darwinian Evolution. No Adam and Eve, sorry for you, no original sin, no need for Jesus to die on a cross.....

The Evidence for evolution is beyond overwhelming, no theory has ever been more thoroughly tested and no one could ever come up with a threat of evidence against it.

And scripture and revelation have never, ever, not once, shown to be correct over the results of science.

But please, keep believing that a whale can swallow you and keep you alive inside for 3 days.....

best regards
Thomas

The only reason we have gods is because ancient man needed something to explain the world around them, we don’t need that anymore so gods should have exited stage left, in most first world countries belief in gods is going rapidly going down the toilet, as it should.

tommy1808 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Like the myth of Darwinian Evolution ? ? ?

The proven fact of Darwinian Evolution. No Adam and Eve, sorry for you, no original sin, no need for Jesus to die on a cross.....

The Evidence for evolution is beyond overwhelming, no theory has ever been more thoroughly tested and no one could ever come up with a threat of evidence against it.

And scripture and revelation have never, ever, not once, shown to be correct over the results of science.

But please, keep believing that a whale can swallow you and keep you alive inside for 3 days.....

best regards
Thomas

I don't buy into your errors, and there are so many Thomas !!!

But let's just take one, Evolution.... It is still a Theory, and until science "proves" it, it will remain a "theory", even if fellows like your self insist that is is "proven", when it hasn't been.

Nice Try T

Perhaps you should first decide which God you mean? I mean one of the versions of the God of Abraham (Jewism, Christianity or Islam). One of the hundreds of thousands of Gods of Hinduism or all them? Gods of the Maya perhaps? Of from ancient Roman of Greece culture? Of Wodam and the like from Germanic/Northern culture?

I think all people agree on one thing: not all the Gods can exist, so it is a matter of belief. If you want to live your life believing in a "God", go ahead, just don't bother others with it.

Personally, I think that most are beautiful moral stories with have outlived their usefulness. I stopped believing in fairytales a long time ago, if I ever did.

Cadet985 wrote:

God of some sort, how do you explain the creation of the universe — even with the Big Bang Theory, I think something had to happen to cause the explosion

Dear Marc,

The Big Bang, wasn't an explosion as such, but an expansion of time and space which is still continuing to this day. What tricked the Big Bang, we will never know for certain because no data can be collected, but there are some speculations about it, perhaps the most plausible is the Big Crunch, which let to the Big Bang. It is an excellent question, why and what happened, but there should you stop, not trying to explain something with God-like figure if science hasn't got an answer for you at the moment.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Like the myth of Darwinian Evolution ? ? ?

The proven fact of Darwinian Evolution. No Adam and Eve, sorry for you, no original sin, no need for Jesus to die on a cross.....

The Evidence for evolution is beyond overwhelming, no theory has ever been more thoroughly tested and no one could ever come up with a threat of evidence against it.

And scripture and revelation have never, ever, not once, shown to be correct over the results of science.

But please, keep believing that a whale can swallow you and keep you alive inside for 3 days.....

best regards
Thomas

I don't buy into your errors, and there are so many Thomas !!!

But let's just take one, Evolution.... It is still a Theory, and until science "proves" it, it will remain a "theory", even if fellows like your self insist that is is "proven", when it hasn't been.

Nice Try T

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#Theories_and_laws

You don't understand the definition of "Theory"

DIRECTFLT wrote:

But let's just take one, Evolution.... It is still a Theory, and until science "proves" it, it will remain a "theory", even if fellows like your self insist that is is "proven", when it hasn't been.

Nice Try T

So i guess no one has ever told you that "theory" is the word scientists use for facts proven beyond any contradicting data? A hypothesis becomes a theory when it a) can explain all available data and b) could not been disproven, despite designing studies and experiment with exactly the purpose of disproving the hypothesis.Scientists don´t use "fact" at work, only when talking to laymen, because there can always been new data indicating there is something we don´t know yet. Like dark matter or dark energy. Quite wasteful for a god to make a universe for us where we can not see or touch 95% of what is in it.....

And Evolution is the by far best tested theory we have, and it has always proven itself to be correct, even about stuff that Darwin could not know, because he didn´t know about DNA.And DNA is cool since sequencing it is cheap, we can for example proof that there where never fewer than 2000 humans, or that the Indigenous population of the Americas descended from about 70 first settlers crossing the land bridge.

Intelligent design/Creationism has gotten so awful quiet because they don´t even have enough to cast doubt even for people with the most basic understanding of Evolution, since we have a pretty darn complete picture. There are reasons why there isn´t a single book on the market that tries to disproof Evolution, that doesn´t have to misrepresent Darwins theory first.Because if they explained it correctly, they woulnd´t be able to "disproof" it.

best regards
Thomas

Also, relevant to both the evolution debate and the God debate:

Philosophers of science argue that we do not know mind-independent empirical truths with absolute certainty: even direct observations may be "theory laden" and depend on assumptions about our senses and the measuring instruments used. In this sense all facts are provisional.

Excerpted from:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory

Cadet985 wrote:

The overwhelming majority of the time, a believer cannot turn a believer into a nonbeliever, and vice versa.

While that is true, plenty of people have reasoned themselves out of Religion.

Conversely if there isn’t a God of some sort, how do you explain the creation of the universe — even with the Big Bang Theory, I think something had to happen to cause the explosion.

Given the available data set, there may never have been a single explosion, big bang, but a constant, never ending explosion called "inflation" and the Universe we see is simply the part of that inflationary space that once was close enough together to different regions of it could communicate (i.e. thermally equalize), as we can see an extremely homogeneous microwave background radiation.

Nature doesn´t seem to allow for nothing to exist, there is always something, particles are constantly sprung into existence and disappear again.We can measure that, check out the Casimir effect.

And the universe around us that we perceive as something does in fact consist mostly of empty space with those particles coming in and out of existence. If you take for example a piece of diamond and, if we could, proportionally enlarged it to a point where a single carbon atom becomes about as big as a football, the single atoms in that hardest of material would be about 10 miles apart, with just some electric charge, the electrons, buzzing around in that vast empty space.

The only reason you can not just walk through a wall is force-fields, check out Pauli's exclusion principle, and hence reality in itself is much more virtual than you may think. Atoms almost never touch each other, and if we make them touch, they fuse, releasing energy. That happens in H-bombs, hopefully one day fusion reactors and in stars.

At the beginning of the universe there was nothing but Hydrogen, Helium and maybe traces of lithium. Everything else had to be made via Fusion by stars, spread around the universe when they went Supernova at the end of their life cycle, distributing those heavier elements in space. All the hydrogen in your body, on this planet, anywhere in the universe is the same hydrogen from way back then, and the rest of you is literally star dust.

Reality is so much more poetic and beautiful than anything humans have ever dreamed up.

From all we know the Universe, the whole thing, not just what we can see, has always been there and will always be there.For anything to exist, something has to have existed forever. Postulating a God existing before that doesn´t solve the problem, where did he come from, and is not supported by data. He is not just a bad explanation, there isn´t a single piece of evidence to point to his existence.

And in the biblical sense .... why did God bother making all those other Gods mentioned in the bible, and why could they give their followers weapons so powerful that God couldn´t stop them (Iron Chariots) and the all powerful creator of the Universe?

God is a failed hypothesis, Science was invented to understand Gods will better. They just happen to find out that no god is needed.

Dutchy wrote:

perhaps the most plausible is the Big Crunch, which let to the Big Bang. .

The big Crunch idea basically died in 1998, when data showed it is not the way our universe will go.

best regards
Thomas

DIRECTFLT wrote:

I don't buy into your errors, and there are so many Thomas !!!

But let's just take one, Evolution.... It is still a Theory, and until science "proves" it, it will remain a "theory", even if fellows like your self insist that is is "proven", when it hasn't been.

Nice Try T

Oh dear, someone didn't pay attention at school did they. Oh well.

Just a quick one however, even if the theory of evolution was wrong why would that that mean that god had anything to do with it? Do you just intend on filling all your ignorance with god?
When you get a call from an unknown number do you assume that god is calling you?
When someone knocks at the door do you assume its god?


On the broader subject of does god exist?

There is no reason for a god or god(s) to exist or any evidence for it. If you think you can find evidence for god then please as the OP suggested post it here and I guarentee it will be torn to shreds by facts and knowledge.

If god did exist then it is either ineffective (so whats the point) or it is a complete and utter bastard. If it turns out he does exist and I turn up at the pearly gates I will politely decline the offer as a land made to be perfect by a cruel and vindictive dick head probably is more like the hell that is described in the bible.

Fred

God.... is that you ? ? ? ?

flipdewaf wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

God.... is that you ? ? ? ?

As good a chance as any I guess....

..and even better chance. There is ample evidence that you do exist. With regards to you we can only argue if you are in deed one person or many, young or old .... and so on.

For god we have nothing, but one book that we know has been changed and altered at leisure over two Millennia.

And isn´t calling someone else God heresy and gets you eternal torture?..... mm

best regards
Thomas

DIRECTFLT wrote:

God.... is that you ? ? ? ?

As good a chance as any I guess....

DIRECTFLT wrote:

But let's just take one, Evolution.... It is still a Theory, and until science "proves" it, it will remain a "theory", even if fellows like your self insist that is is "proven", when it hasn't been.

Nice Try T

Unsurprising science fail of epic proportions.

A better question, does it matter?

Calder wrote:

A better question, does it matter?

No, as long as no one is claiming moral superiority on the basis of God.

Calder wrote:

A better question, does it matter?

Nope. God doesn´t exist weather you believe in him or not.

best regards
Thomas

Arguing about the excistence of a diety is just stupid since there will never be a scientific proof of such a thing.
So watch out for people who claim to speak the truth because they say they know the mind of "God".

But that's not the same as saying religion is useless and religious stories don't have any value.

Perhaps the best book on the subject:
Religion in Human Evolution by Robert N. Bellah

It explains the rise of religion, first looking at several levels of civilization. Hence it also explains the power of religion. The story 'ain't' always pretty. Also, of necessity, religion has to use human language, which means that most religious terms are metaphorical (as is most language and thinking).

Perhaps the most powerful argument about why bad things happen, is to also acknowledge that we could as well ask why good things happen. Life as we live it is a mystery. Make of it what you will. Choose your (religious) guides carefully. They will influence the next generations.

Calder wrote:

A better question, does it matter?

It does when folks go around killing others in the name of their “god”.

Dahlgardo wrote:

Arguing about the excistence of a diety is just stupid since there will never be a scientific proof of such a thing..

That is not exactly true. If god does interfere with the natural order in our universe in any way, shape or form, that is in principle a testable claim. So at least the god almost every believer believes in is a disprovable hypothesis,

But if you mean that it is pointless because people believing such nonsense will not change their mind, no matter how much data there is, then you are right. I loved how the Tempelton Foundation, after being lectured that prayer can´t be tested, replied quite dry that if prayer worked, it is perfectly measurable.

Not much surprise that prayer doesn´t work though.

best regards
Thomas

Calder wrote:

A better question, does it matter?

Yes, it does.

Imagine if all the effort religious people have put in to thinking they were making the world a better place had actually been put into making the world a better place how much of a better place the world would be.Alas we will always be in the presence of people who'd rather feel like they were doing good than actually doing it.

Fred

tommy1808 wrote:

Dahlgardo wrote:

Arguing about the excistence of a diety is just stupid since there will never be a scientific proof of such a thing..

That is not exactly true. If god does interfere with the natural order in our universe in any way, shape or form, that is in principle a testable claim. So at least the god almost every believer believes in is a disprovable hypothesis

If you observe something that goes against the natural laws as we know them, that does not prove the existence of a diety.
The most likely scenario would be, that the natural laws are not understood well enough.
But in the imagination everything is possible.

I find it regrettable, that discussions about religion often becomes a discussion about the existence of a diety.
Religions role as a cultural and moral influence is much more interesting and valuable.

Dahlgardo wrote:

Religions role as a cultural and moral influence is much more interesting and valuable.

true, especially giving the negative value religion seems to have for societies.

best regards
Thomas

"God loves you. He loves you and he needs money!" - George Carlin

I'm sure there's a credit card swipe on the side of Billy Graham's casket to pay your "respects".

Disclaimer... I'm a rabbi.

I look at the bible as my story, not my science book. If I want to learn about science, I don't look at the story of creation as the bible shares it.

In Judaism, we don't typically obey or submit to God. We engage with God. If we find something that we don't agree with, we challenge God. (Characters in the bible did this all the time).

Why do bad things happen? There's a difference between an illness taking a young child's life, or an earthquake decimating a city - and shooter murdering people.

The former are acts of nature. People often say that acts of nature are the same as acts of God. But that's not the God I believe it. I don't think God sends the earthquake. I think God sends the people to help us once disaster strikes.

The latter (the shooting) is an act of humanity exercising free will. We learn that humans are in the image of God. But when a human does a horrible act, there is nothing Godly about it.

People often ask me, "Why don't miracles happen today the way the did according to the bible." Keep in mind that the people who saw miracles in the bible also doubted. They built the Golden Calf. Seeing a miracle does not truly deepen proof of the existence of God.

Cadet985 wrote:

Conversely if there isn’t a God of some sort, how do you explain the creation of the universe — even with the Big Bang Theory, I think something had to happen to cause the explosion.

I don't pretend to know how the universe came about, however adding a deity into the mix doesn't help the explanation any, instead you then wonder how did the deity come about.

Americans do love their fairy tales.

A gun in every hand will stop violence.
Iraq was a imminent threat to the US.
You can force a democracy on to another country.
Occupying a country will help stop terrorism.
Anything that helps other people is nasty socialism.
Trump is a good Christian.
God is always watching us!

All utter nonsense

tommy1808 wrote:

God is a failed hypothesis, Science was invented to understand Gods will better. They just happen to find out that no god is needed.

best regards
Thomas

Actually , given the way civilisation is trending, a god is needed. Pity they proved that there in no evidence that HE exists!

zrs70 wrote:

Disclaimer... I'm a rabbi.

The latter (the shooting) is an act of humanity exercising free will. We learn that humans are in the image of God. But when a human does a horrible act, there is nothing Godly about it..

But, the shooter being the image of GOD it shows that GOD is clearly tempted to shoot lots of school-children!

drew777 wrote:

Americans do love their fairy tales.

A gun in every hand will stop violence.
Iraq was a imminent threat to the US.
You can force a democracy on to another country.
Occupying a country will help stop terrorism.
Anything that helps other people is nasty socialism.
Trump is a good Christian.
God is always watching us!

All utter nonsense

A+ on this one. We might see some good responses to this.

zrs70 wrote:

Disclaimer... I'm a rabbi.

I look at the bible as my story, not my science book.

and a fine yarn it is too, like Harry Potter. I don't think Harry Potter is real though.

zrs70 wrote:

If I want to learn about science, I don't look at the story of creation as the bible shares it.

of course not, that would be stupid

zrs70 wrote:

In Judaism, we don't typically obey or submit to God. We engage with God.

eh? Like you talk to him or he talks to you? Maybe he has email nowadays

zrs70 wrote:

If we find something that we don't agree with, we challenge God. (Characters in the bible did this all the time).

you can't use people from fiction as a reasonable justification for doing something similar, and again how do you challenge him? In what way? And in what way does he reposte?

zrs70 wrote:

Why do bad things happen? There's a difference between an illness taking a young child's life, or an earthquake decimating a city - and shooter murdering people.

either he can do something and he's a dick for It or he can't so he ain't really that special

zrs70 wrote:

The former are acts of nature. People often say that acts of nature are the same as acts of God. But that's not the God I believe it. I don't think God sends the earthquake. I think God sends the people to help us once disaster strikes.

if he knows what to do after the fact the. We definitely know god is a woman

zrs70 wrote:

The latter (the shooting) is an act of humanity exercising free will. We learn that humans are in the image of God.

except for the bit on the end of your willy, coz you know gross!

zrs70 wrote:

But when a human does a horrible act, there is nothing Godly about it.

so we pick and choose what is godly and so we can determine what god is like based on pre huddled morals given to us by society that we then project to make a god the way we want it

zrs70 wrote:

People often ask me, "Why don't miracles happen today the way the did according to the bible." Keep in mind that the people who saw miracles in the bible also doubted. They built the Golden Calf. Seeing a miracle does not truly deepen proof of the existence of God.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is coming to town

He's making a list, And checking it twice; Gonna find out Who's naughty
and nice. Santa Claus is coming to town

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake

This is not too far off from the standard theological understanding of God, kind of a moralistic gift bringer. It has some but not much support in Jewish and Christian scriptures.

zrs70 wrote:

Disclaimer... I'm a rabbi.

I look at the bible as my story, not my science book.

and a fine yarn it is too, like Harry Potter. I don't think Harry Potter is real though.

zrs70 wrote:

If I want to learn about science, I don't look at the story of creation as the bible shares it.

of course not, that would be stupid

zrs70 wrote:

In Judaism, we don't typically obey or submit to God. We engage with God.

eh? Like you talk to him or he talks to you? Maybe he has email nowadays

zrs70 wrote:

If we find something that we don't agree with, we challenge God. (Characters in the bible did this all the time).

you can't use people from fiction as a reasonable justification for doing something similar, and again how do you challenge him? In what way? And in what way does he reposte?

zrs70 wrote:

Why do bad things happen? There's a difference between an illness taking a young child's life, or an earthquake decimating a city - and shooter murdering people.

either he can do something and he's a dick for It or he can't so he ain't really that special

zrs70 wrote:

The former are acts of nature. People often say that acts of nature are the same as acts of God. But that's not the God I believe it. I don't think God sends the earthquake. I think God sends the people to help us once disaster strikes.

if he knows what to do after the fact the. We definitely know god is a woman

zrs70 wrote:

The latter (the shooting) is an act of humanity exercising free will. We learn that humans are in the image of God.

except for the bit on the end of your willy, coz you know gross!

zrs70 wrote:

But when a human does a horrible act, there is nothing Godly about it.

so we pick and choose what is godly and so we can determine what god is like based on pre huddled morals given to us by society that we then project to make a god the way we want it

zrs70 wrote:

People often ask me, "Why don't miracles happen today the way the did according to the bible." Keep in mind that the people who saw miracles in the bible also doubted. They built the Golden Calf. Seeing a miracle does not truly deepen proof of the existence of God.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let's look at it a different way, how many of us on here have died and lived to tell about it ?

Sounds strange I know, but I have, only thanks to a really good doctor and the nurses in the room am I hear, but that doesn't matter in the context of this thread.

When I died, I didn't see a light, I didn't see a set of gates, no fire and daemons, I saw well nothing, so that makes me believe there is no heaven or hell, therefore no god or devil.

Kiwirob wrote:

The only reason we have gods is because ancient man needed something to explain the world around them, we don’t need that anymore so gods should have exited stage left, in most first world countries belief in gods is going rapidly going down the toilet, as it should.

That's my take on it.

I think there are many gods in many universes. But they basically do not care about us.

My analogy is humans vs. ants. We are like gods compared to ants. We can engineer them. We can kill them easily, in ways that are incomprehensible to ants. But, 99.999999% of events in an average ant's life are unaffected by humans. AND WE LIVE ON THE SAME PLANET.

So who are we to say there aren't gods out there? We don't know. Maybe a god did create our little Universe, which is probably insignificant. Maybe our universe is a booger in a god's nose. And maybe that god is a child, or a giraffe. We do not know.

Kiwirob wrote:

The only reason we have gods is because ancient man needed something to explain the world around them, we don’t need that anymore so gods should have exited stage left, in most first world countries belief in gods is going rapidly going down the toilet, as it should.

The best explanation I have see for why we have gods and religion is that it is an artefact of an evolutionary advantage that humans have an imagination and that gives them the ability to perform thought experiments and from that make predictions. The other thing that the imagination does is allows us create thought experiments based on others learnings and the advantage is that knowledge didn't have to be experienced to be learned and for this to occur we have to trust what our elders told us.

By and large this gave humans an advantage but had the artefact of not everything being truthful that was passed on kind of like Chinese whispers.

In the modern world we have the ability to be able to verify what is true and what isn't but the human nature to trust the elders still remains whether it is useful or not.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am always intrigued by the idea that people think there is supposedly a gigantic, galactic-sized penis swinging around out there..... (and I it must be uncircumcised?).... somewhere...

Tugg