zrs70
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Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:29 am

A few weeks ago, a friend asked me what I thought about the Israel capitol moving to Jerusalem.

“Jerusalem is the capitol” I replied. “And if the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as a capitol, great. Since when does one country decide where the capitol of another should be?”

“Are you a Trump supporter,” she asked. (She knows I am an active democrat).

It really frustrated me. Support (and criticism) for/of Israel used to be bi-partisan. But Trump is so polarizing that anything he says will have a immediate and opposite reaction from the left. And Israel advocacy will become almost not existent in the Democratic Party. It’s a shame.
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coolian2
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:40 am

But Jerusalem isn't the capital?
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seb146
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:49 am

coolian2 wrote:
But Jerusalem isn't the capital?


In what city does the Knesset meet? That is how I think of where a capital is.
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NIKV69
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:16 am

This goes back to something I posted a while back. Just because you support guns it doesn't make you a far right whack. Just because you support legal immigration it doesn't make you a racist. If you support fair taxation etc. You don't have to be a conservative to to support Israel and it also doesn't mean you are a Trump supporter.

It just means Trump actually did something about the capital of Israel instead of doing what past presidents did when they just talked about it.
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:09 am

seb146 wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
But Jerusalem isn't the capital?


In what city does the Knesset meet? That is how I think of where a capital is.


Our parliament meets in The Hague and the capital is Amsterdam 8-)
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:16 am

zrs70 wrote:
“Jerusalem is the capitol” I replied. “And if the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as a capitol, great. Since when does one country decide where the capitol of another should be?”


Well, since Jerusalem isn't recognized as being part of Israel in the first place, it is quite hard to recognize it as the official capitol. Jerusalem is one of the focus points of the whole conflict, if you go back to the adopted plan for Israel, Jerusalem would have been an undivided city under international rule. East Jerusalem, the old city, was conquered from Jordan and later annexed by Israel.

Moving your embassy there is a stupid move.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:45 am

To the Victor... goes the spoils of war.

The other side lost. And Jerusalem is the eternal earthly home of God.

Fighting that is like spitting in the wind.
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:07 am

Dutchy wrote:
Moving your embassy there is a stupid move.


And violates international law.....

seb146 wrote:
In what city does the Knesset meet? That is how I think of where a capital is.


So, if the Reichstag had met in Paris, it would have become the capital of Germany if they had voted to make it so?
You can not take possession of territory by force, your capital can't be in such territory.

DIRECTFLT wrote:
To the Victor... goes the spoils of war.


Vlademir Putin and Saddam Hussein like this

The other side lost.


I am surprised that you are a supporter of Hezbollah ... After all, if taking it by force is ok, trying to take it back by force equally is.

And Jerusalem is the eternal earthly home of God.


Religion is the source of almost all evil. That is why religiosity and violence corelate so nicely. Best hope for the region is that religiosity is fading away fast in Israel, with 2/3 of the population already being non-religious. Few people.in the City of God think God is real. Thank god.

Best regards
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:10 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

Bit busy in Jerusalem, with all the Gods of the world in one place, Hinduism has hundreds of millions of them. :white:
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ltbewr
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:25 am

Simple answer - NO. Almost all Democrat officials support Israel and their capital in Jerusalem much like almost all Republicans, but not all those that vote Democrat do. Unfortunately our politics in the USA, including campaign contributions and votes from evangelical Christians and Jews, as well as terrorism by Palestinians upon Israel, and in the past upon the USA and in Europe, make it almost impossible to give anything but absolute, blind support for Israel.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:15 am

Basically criticism of Israel in the US is/was taboo. They could do no wrong. I don't think that's a good thing. If only Democrats start to see the light, it's better than nothing.
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olle
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:37 am

I think people who understands how complicated the conflict is try in a diplomatic way keep a model where both sides see a chance of a future by negotiate.

Trump have shown that USA is 100%on the side of Israel and made the Palestinians walk away.

Most people supporting Israel try to support a Jewish Israel. But we do not understand how we in the future shall support a Jewish Israel if Palestinians or non Jewish population has more then 50% of the population of that majority of the Israel population do not agree.

Israel policy today is a one state population and the Jewish population seems to be unwilling how they will solve a one state solution while maintaining a democratic Israel.

I think that Obama administration saw this and they acted with both Israel and palestina like two teenagers not understand their own good.

Trump act with one of the teenagers; go party and life will be fine.

I am concerned that Trump policy will be paid with a high price by Israel in the future.
 
WIederling
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:44 am

zrs70 wrote:
A few weeks ago, a friend asked me what I thought about the Israel capitol moving to Jerusalem.

“Jerusalem is the capitol” I replied. “And if the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as a capitol, great. Since when does one country decide where the capitol of another should be?”


Just to nitpick here:
There is a distinct difference between Capitol ( note the "O" ) and Capital ( for a city and note the "A" )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:59 am

NIKV69 wrote:
This goes back to something I posted a while back. Just because you support guns it doesn't make you a far right whack. Just because you support legal immigration it doesn't make you a racist. If you support fair taxation etc. You don't have to be a conservative to to support Israel and it also doesn't mean you are a Trump supporter.



The ugly reality of that is that the support for Israel here in the US and California comes almost exclusively from people who have no business being involved. To wit, white christians. "Supporting" Israel here does not involve, in any way, securing the freedom and safety of jews in that region, rather it hinges entirely on having a friendly (for now), ally in our adopted cause of containing Islamic fundamentalism in the region.

Our "concern" for Israel is no more genuine than our issue with communism in Viet Nam a few decades back.

The shame of this is that Israel is actually a fairly decent place, in the way that modern, progressive values (ironically, the sort that most American "supporters" would not agree with) are the norm. Ordinarily, support for that coming from a place like America and California wouldn't be a problem, but the fact that whack jobs like Netanyahu are actively encouraged by this is not a good thing. As anyone can see.


tommy1808 wrote:

Religion is the source of almost all evil. That is why religiosity and violence corelate so nicely. Best hope for the region is that religiosity is fading away fast in Israel, with 2/3 of the population already being non-religious. Few people.in the City of God think God is real. Thank god.

Best regards
Thomas


Indeed. My experience with the Isaelis I work with is largely reflective of this. In fact, there is a general sentiment that the US's active involvement with their religious/political issues is more than a little terrifying.

In the last twelve months, I've spent good amounts of time in both Iran and Israel and it's absolutely incredible (not in a good way) to see that a lot of the religious political issues actually appear much larger in the US and CA than they do in the actual places "involved". The general consensus in Israel is one of resentment that outsiders are spoiling for a fight, one of course we will not have to deal with the consequences of, no less.
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seb146
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
In what city does the Knesset meet? That is how I think of where a capital is.


So, if the Reichstag had met in Paris, it would have become the capital of Germany if they had voted to make it so?
You can not take possession of territory by force, your capital can't be in such territory.


Why not? The United States moved the capitals of Hawaii and Alaska. Besides, I was just putting my opinion on what I think of as a capital. The question of "where is the seat of government for Israel" and my answer is, "where the legislature meets."
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
Why not? The United States moved the capitals of Hawaii and Alaska. Besides, I was just putting my opinion on what I think of as a capital. The question of "where is the seat of government for Israel" and my answer is, "where the legislature meets."

The seat of government is not necessarily IN the capital.

Look at Bolivia and South Africa. South Africa has 3 capital cities (one for each of the branches of government). Bolivia recently designated Sucre as the constitutional capital but the seat of government remains in La Paz.

How do you untangle the mess of which city is the capital? And how do you reconcile that with international law? Sucre, for example, is not in dispute with any of Bolivia's neighbors so if Bolivia moves its capital there, it's a completely domestic affair and there's no violation of international law. If Russia decided to name Crimea as its capital and move the Federal Assembly, would you say that Crimea IS the Russian capital?
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zrs70
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:36 pm

WIederling wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
A few weeks ago, a friend asked me what I thought about the Israel capitol moving to Jerusalem.

“Jerusalem is the capitol” I replied. “And if the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as a capitol, great. Since when does one country decide where the capitol of another should be?”


Just to nitpick here:
There is a distinct difference between Capitol ( note the "O" ) and Capital ( for a city and note the "A" )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city


Omg. So embarrassed over that one. I pride myself in grammar. Thank you for the correction!!!
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NIKV69
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:52 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:


The ugly reality of that is that the support for Israel here in the US and California comes almost exclusively from people who have no business being involved. To wit, white christians. "Supporting" Israel here does not involve, in any way, securing the freedom and safety of jews in that region, rather it hinges entirely on having a friendly (for now), ally in our adopted cause of containing Islamic fundamentalism in the region.

Our "concern" for Israel is no more genuine than our issue with communism in Viet Nam a few decades back.




This has to be the biggest crock I have ever read here. Have no business being involved? You kidding? Just because Israeli Jews are a minority in this country they are our friends and I have many that I call friends. I support them because I feel everyone has a right to exist without fear of being shelled or blown up at a bus station.

You also speak like stopping Islamic terror is a bad thing. Which immediately shows where you stand.

Give me a break.
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:06 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I support them because I feel everyone has a right to exist without fear of being shelled or blown up at a bus station.

You also speak like stopping Islamic terror is a bad thing. Which immediately shows where you stand.


Action, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, for the past 5.000 years.

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salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:32 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I support them because I feel everyone has a right to exist without fear of being shelled or blown up at a bus station.

Where is your support for the Palestinians who were the Jews' best friends for a thousand years, before the Zionists infiltrated their country and drove them off their land?

And as far as Israel being "friends" of the US, you should review the USS Liberty incident. If the US gets in Israel's way, it would be just road kill from the Zionist POV. If the political situation ever shifts to a point where the Israelis see more benefit in a relationship with Russia than the US, you can bet they would turn their backs without a thought of regret. Their roots and their culture are far more Russian than American. Their love for us is purely based on expediency.

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salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Action, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, for the past 5.000 years.

You have zero understanding of actual history.

That video was probably created by Camera for the purpose of muddying the water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lo ... ted_States
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:00 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Action, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, for the past 5.000 years.

You have zero understanding of actual history.

That video was probably created by Camera for the purpose of muddying the water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lo ... ted_States


What is, in your mind, the actual history? You only show a lobby in the US....
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casinterest
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:58 pm

zrs70 wrote:
A few weeks ago, a friend asked me what I thought about the Israel capitol moving to Jerusalem.

“Jerusalem is the capitol” I replied. “And if the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as a capitol, great. Since when does one country decide where the capitol of another should be?”

“Are you a Trump supporter,” she asked. (She knows I am an active democrat).

It really frustrated me. Support (and criticism) for/of Israel used to be bi-partisan. But Trump is so polarizing that anything he says will have a immediate and opposite reaction from the left. And Israel advocacy will become almost not existent in the Democratic Party. It’s a shame.


I think support for Israel is still bipartisan. However the continued delays in finding a lasting peace are wearing on everyone . I support Israel. I still think Trump and Netenyahu are out of their minds on a lot of issues. However Israel does exist, and it is a beautiful country. I have been there, unlike a lot of folks that chime in on this debate. There are many more people against zionism than are for it. Hopefully going forward the Palestinians will work for peace. That is the only way to get what they want and need.

Borders are tighter when there is a lot of mistrust, and only with peace will the borders be less strict and will the Palestinians be able to move forward in prosperity with their neighbors.
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:46 pm

Funny that the party of antisemites, holocaust deniers, and nazis-as-very fine people is so pro Israel. It’s almost as if the support for Israel has zero to do with its actual inhabitants
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:28 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Just because Israeli Jews are a minority in this country they are our friends and I have many that I call friends. I support them because I feel everyone has a right to exist without fear of being shelled or blown up at a bus station.


False. If you actually felt that way, you'd be in favor of the only solution, which is a two state solution.

Your posting indicates otherwise, which means that your "support" can only be indicative of being a smaller part of the broader (and hilariously myopic and failure prone) right wing foreign policy.

You need to actually go there sometime. Saying you know "a few" Israelis in the US is literally making the "black friends" argument.

If you really cared about folks being better off over there, you'd be in favor of policy that doesn't allow right wing Americans an undue, and agitory voice in the conversation.

As I mentioned earlier, I actually am over there quite a lot these days and the sentiment is overwhelmingly one of resentment when it comes to America's burdensome opinions on their foreign policy. And it's very, very clear to them how much of that voice comes from right wing evangelical types.

I get that you don't know this. But if Israel has a future, it's not going to come from some perverted Christian Zionism. You need to get that.


NIKV69 wrote:
You also speak like stopping Islamic terror is a bad thing. Which immediately shows where you stand.

Give me a break.


Negative. Ending terror will only happens when the larger systemic issues have been addressed. This will require treating Palistinians as human beings with their own agency. Until you are on board with that (and you've indicated otherwise), the terror/retaliation cycle will continue. You clearly dont want this. Which immediately shows where you stand.
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salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
What is, in your mind, the actual history? You only show a lobby in the US....

Read a book, seriously I cannot teach you history here in an internet forum.

You would be good to start here, but this is just one slice of time, there's lots more.
https://www.amazon.com/Rome-Jerusalem-C ... 0375726136

But stick to actual history, not Zionist propaganda.

The earlier link was so that you could understand what Camera is.
 
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:15 am

Today I found out there are 20 states in the US with a law in place to deal with businesses that boycott Israel.

Ahhh America land of the free and freedom of speech....just don't be crazy enough to practice that right.
 
salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:36 am

casinterest wrote:
I think support for Israel is still bipartisan. However the continued delays in finding a lasting peace are wearing on everyone . I support Israel.
If you blindly support Israel you aren't supporting peace. you never will unless you take the time to

casinterest wrote:
There are many more people against zionism than are for it.
Is this the poor pitiful "they're all picking on us" nonsense?

casinterest wrote:
Hopefully going forward the Palestinians will work for peace. That is the only way to get what they want and need.

That statement is utterly laughable. The Palestinians were a peace loving bunch of olive farmers before the Zionists invaded and drove them off their land. They brought the survivors of their failed revolution against the Tzar (the Jewish Narodniki) to the Levant so as to have an opponent which was less formidable than the Tzar's army. They have been the instigators of violence ever since. The current Zionist hierarchy is no different than those of the Ze'ev Jabotinsky era, they don't want peace; they want more land.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:40 am

salttee wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I think support for Israel is still bipartisan. However the continued delays in finding a lasting peace are wearing on everyone . I support Israel.
If you blindly support Israel you aren't supporting peace. you never will unless you take the time to

casinterest wrote:
There are many more people against zionism than are for it.
Is this the poor pitiful "they're all picking on us" nonsense?

casinterest wrote:
Hopefully going forward the Palestinians will work for peace. That is the only way to get what they want and need.

That statement is utterly laughable. The Palestinians were a peace loving bunch of olive farmers before the Zionists invaded and drove them off their land. They brought the survivors of their failed revolution against the Tzar (the Jewish Narodniki) to the Levant so as to have an opponent which was less formidable than the Tzar's army. They have been the instigators of violence ever since. The current Zionist hierarchy is no different than those of the Ze'ev Jabotinsky era, they don't want peace; they want more land.


Have you ever been to the middle east ?

Have you ever been to Israel?
Do you talk with folks involved in the situation?

My statement is not laughable when you deal with the simple realities. The Israeli's look to the future. The Palestinians dwell on the past, and in doing so have allowed nationalists to dictate a path of terrorism.
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salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:08 am

casinterest wrote:
Have you ever been to the middle east ? Have you ever been to Israel?
Are you seriously saying that one would have had to have traveled to Munich in order to know about the Nazis? To Uganda to know anout Idi Amin? To Stalinist Russia in order to understand Communism?

Please let go of that one.

casinterest wrote:
Do you talk with folks involved in the situation?
For years my best friend has been Palestinian. Currently the person I spend the most time with is a Jewish lady who was born in French Algeria, I also spend time at her son's place - both he and his wife served in the IDF. So, yes I'm grounded in the subject.

casinterest wrote:
My statement is not laughable when you deal with the simple realities.
Simple realities?
casinterest wrote:
The Israeli's look to the future. The Palestinians dwell on the past, and in doing so have allowed nationalists to dictate a path of terrorism.
So If someone murders your wife and rapes your daughter, you won't be mad at them next week because you don't live in the past?

Somehow your worldview allows you to skip over the fact that these people have had their everything taken from them. That's a large thing to over look don't you think?

And you do know that it continues, it's ongoing - don't you?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:15 am

Israel's "right to exist" is all about what happened during WW2, if that's not dwelling on the past...
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casinterest
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:22 am

salttee wrote:
Are you seriously saying that one would have had to have traveled to Munich in order to know about the Nazis? To Uganda to know anout Idi Amin? To Stalinist Russia in order to understand Communism?

Please let go of that one.

No, I won't

you haven''t been there and don't know the people. I have sat there and seen a missle drill. Have you in your comfortable house ever sat and waited for a missle attack?

Don't go Nazi like a coward would on an issue that is much more complicated.

salttee wrote:
or years my best friend has been Palestinian. Currently the person I spend the most time with is a Jewish lady who was born in French Algeria, I also spend time at her son's place - both he and his wife served in the IDF. So, yes I'm grounded in the subject.


I have worked with Palestinians, Iranians, Israelis, Libyans, and Egyptians. you are far from grounded. Especially with your above comment.

salttee wrote:
So If someone murders your wife and rapes your daughter, you won't be mad at them next week because you don't live in the past?

Somehow your worldview allows you to skip over the fact that these people have had their everything taken from them. That's a large thing to over look don't you think?

And you do know that it continues, it's ongoing - don't you?

Vengence and anger are two different things, and something Hamas needs to learn.

Hate to break the news to you ,but for 80-90% of the region, what you are talking about happened before their lifetime. So yes, they need to look forward and not backwards.
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salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:31 am

Aesma wrote:
Israel's "right to exist" is all about what happened during WW2, if that's not dwelling on the past...

Since the takeover of Palestine has been an uninterrupted process for the last 130+ years, you'll have to explain that comment.

BTW
If you want to factor WW2 into this discussion, keep in mind that Golda Meir who led the Zionist delegation at the Evian conference of 1938, was opposed to paying for the freedom of European Jews if they didn't want to go to the Levant. The majority of the Jews who were caught in the Holocaust were people who opposed taking back the Holy land by force for religious reasons. In short, she tossed her opponents to the wolves.
 
salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:37 am

casinterest wrote:
Hate to break the news to you ,but for 80-90% of the region, what you are talking about happened before their lifetime. So yes, they need to look forward and not backwards.

You are the most honest Zionist I've ever debated in an internet forum. Most of them dance around nonsensical justifications for what they have done and continue to do. You just out and out don't give a shit about the morality of your position. That's cute.

That also justifies those incoming rockets.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:49 am

salttee wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Hate to break the news to you ,but for 80-90% of the region, what you are talking about happened before their lifetime. So yes, they need to look forward and not backwards.

You are the most honest Zionist I've ever debated in an internet forum. Most of them dance around nonsensical justifications for what they have done and continue to do. You just out and out don't give a shit about the morality of your position. That's cute.

That also justifies those incoming rockets.


You talk about my Morality, and then justify rockets? I think you just don't have anything constructive to hurl, and that is the exact reason the Palestinians suffer. They pledge allegiance to violence and rockets, rather than moving on and forward. I have watched for decades where any chance of peace has been dismantled by the continued turn to violence by the Palestinians. The current situation with Hamas is no a sustainable one for them.

And quite honestly, your calling me a Zionist is not even close to correct, and only weakens the point you argue for. Which is what?
For Palestine to overthrow the Israelis? Expel the Jews?

Or perhaps a
a Two state solution ? Where Hamas rules like ISIS in Palestine and the West Bank?


The solution going forward has to be one of peace, for a two state solution to be even remotely workable. Currently Palestine keeps on weakening their own position,
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Aesma
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:50 am

I don't plan to go to Israel, however since the Jewish population is numerous in my country, including now my sister-in-law, there is still an indirect link to what's happening there. Fortunately my sister-in-law and her family are secular and not too concerned about Israel, however with some violence and some terrorist attacks targeting French Jews, we hear more and more about French Jews emigrating to Israel. So they're choosing the missile drills. They choose to get from a very safe country with a few exceptions, to a country in a perpetual quasi civil war.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
seb146
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:51 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why not? The United States moved the capitals of Hawaii and Alaska. Besides, I was just putting my opinion on what I think of as a capital. The question of "where is the seat of government for Israel" and my answer is, "where the legislature meets."

The seat of government is not necessarily IN the capital.

Look at Bolivia and South Africa. South Africa has 3 capital cities (one for each of the branches of government). Bolivia recently designated Sucre as the constitutional capital but the seat of government remains in La Paz.

How do you untangle the mess of which city is the capital? And how do you reconcile that with international law? Sucre, for example, is not in dispute with any of Bolivia's neighbors so if Bolivia moves its capital there, it's a completely domestic affair and there's no violation of international law. If Russia decided to name Crimea as its capital and move the Federal Assembly, would you say that Crimea IS the Russian capital?


Does Knesset meet in Jerusalem? Yes. Do I agree with it? No. You are asking one question with two answers.

As far as evangelicals celebrating Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, my only response is Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36. The biggest reason evangelicals want Jerusalem as the capital is the end times.

And, a fair question: could Palestine (which includes Christians) have regrets about not forming a nation earlier and want to do it now?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:59 am

Casinterest, you refuse even to look at the morality of the Zionist position, which is your position, one and the same.

To continue this discussion here would be a disservice to our host. So, I'm done.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:10 am

salttee wrote:
Casinterest, you refuse even to look at the morality of the Zionist position, which is your position, one and the same.

To continue this discussion here would be a disservice to our host. So, I'm done.


It isn't a Zionist position. It is one based on time and practicality. Mine isn't a postions that argues that what was done in the past on both sides was right, but it was in the past. You are arguing from a 1940's perspective and 70+ years of history and generations have changed the balance of what is happening, and what is the current reality.

If you are done with this disucssion, then that is fine, but you should examine more about what Zionism means in a nation that has more secularism than religious inhabitants.
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salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:38 am

casinterest wrote:
but you should examine more about what Zionism means in a nation that has more secularism than religious inhabitants.

Israel is a religious state. A Jewish state to be exact.

What's going on now is a repeat of hardcore religious nutjob behavior as happened in 688 BCE when the Jews slaughtered the Babylonian overseers in their land, a repeat of 66 CE when they slaughtered a Roman Legion and a repeat of 132 CE when they again ambushed and slaughtered another Roman Legion. That's the time the Romans spent four years exterminating the Temple cult, and things were peaceful for many centuries until recently when the Temple cult returned as the orthodox. I can't say who is using who, but the Zionists and the orthodox are again in the same death spiral.

The end will most certainly be something similar to the prior occasions as these people know no limits.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:52 am

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What is, in your mind, the actual history? You only show a lobby in the US....

Read a book, seriously I cannot teach you history here in an internet forum.

You would be good to start here, but this is just one slice of time, there's lots more.
https://www.amazon.com/Rome-Jerusalem-C ... 0375726136

But stick to actual history, not Zionist propaganda.

The earlier link was so that you could understand what Camera is.


what do you think I actually believe and think about this conflict?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:25 am

casinterest wrote:

Hate to break the news to you ,but for 80-90% of the region, what you are talking about happened before their lifetime. So yes, they need to look forward and not backwards.
https://israelipalestinian.procon.org/v ... eID=000636


But it’s ok for present day Jews to use what happened in WW2 as justification for there actions today, like the Palestinians WW2 happened a long time ago, long before the lifetime of almost everyone living in Israel today.
 
salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What is, in your mind, the actual history? You only show a lobby in the US....

Read a book, seriously I cannot teach you history here in an internet forum.

You would be good to start here, but this is just one slice of time, there's lots more.
https://www.amazon.com/Rome-Jerusalem-C ... 0375726136

But stick to actual history, not Zionist propaganda.

The earlier link was so that you could understand what Camera is.


what do you think I actually believe and think about this conflict?
Judging by post # 19 you seem to think it is a joke.
But to directly answer your question, it is clear to me that you know very little about actual Jewish history.
I suspect that you also have a superficial knowledge of the infiltration and takeover in the Levant 1880 to present.
You probably have a few talking points that you use to make yourself look smart to the other uninformed, probably procedural stuff, UN resolutions, quotes from politicians: stuff like that.
 
salttee
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
But it’s ok for present day Jews to use what happened in WW2 as justification for their actions today, like the Palestinians WW2 happened a long time ago, long before the lifetime of almost everyone living in Israel today.
Heck, their whole world view is built around supposed injustices committed by the Egyptian Pharaohs, Assyrian king Sennacherib, Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar and the Romans. And when you actually look at the historical record, you find that their recounting of the events is hyperbole, and that's being charitable.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Hate to break the news to you ,but for 80-90% of the region, what you are talking about happened before their lifetime. So yes, they need to look forward and not backwards.
https://israelipalestinian.procon.org/v ... eID=000636


But it’s ok for present day Jews to use what happened in WW2 as justification for there actions today, like the Palestinians WW2 happened a long time ago, long before the lifetime of almost everyone living in Israel today.


If you want to keep going back to ww2, and ignore the present state of the issue, you can find millions of correlatives and reasons to be angry on both sides of the argument all the way to the present. Present day Israelis and Palestinians have other priorities and skin in the game than their ancestors did. They have mortgages, rents and family history where they are now.
As long as Palestine continues to run to the money and rhetoric of those that seek to annihilate Israel, then the Israeli's will be able to skirt UN resolutions on areas where Israel has been wrong in it's expansion of settlements and other UN violations.
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Dutchy
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:06 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
salttee wrote:
Read a book, seriously I cannot teach you history here in an internet forum.

You would be good to start here, but this is just one slice of time, there's lots more.
https://www.amazon.com/Rome-Jerusalem-C ... 0375726136

But stick to actual history, not Zionist propaganda.

The earlier link was so that you could understand what Camera is.


what do you think I actually believe and think about this conflict?
Judging by post # 19 you seem to think it is a joke.
But to directly answer your question, it is clear to me that you know very little about actual Jewish history.
I suspect that you also have a superficial knowledge of the infiltration and takeover in the Levant 1880 to present.
You probably have a few talking points that you use to make yourself look smart to the other uninformed, probably procedural stuff, UN resolutions, quotes from politicians: stuff like that.


And what do you think, I think the solution to the conflict would be?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:01 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
False. If you actually felt that way, you'd be in favor of the only solution, which is a two state solution.

Your posting indicates otherwise, which means that your "support" can only be indicative of being a smaller part of the broader (and hilariously myopic and failure prone) right wing foreign policy.




I would love to see a post of mine that supports your assertion above. Not to mention how do you have a two state solution when Palestine (as well as the whole Arab world) wants you dead?
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 pm

NIKV69 wrote:

I would love to see a post of mine that supports your assertion above.



Apparently you'd love to so much that you made this post one of them. Asked and answered, see below. ..


NIKV69 wrote:
how do you have a two state solution when Palestine (as well as the whole Arab world) wants you dead?


The ridiculous assumption made here is something that only American right wing meddler types buy into.


The fact is is that it's not 1973 anymore. There is actually a tremendous amount of commerce going back and forth between Israel and the Islamic (that's what you meant when you said "Arab" as they are not interchangeable).

Setting even that aside, both the Arab and Islamic world have much bigger fish to fry than Israel (it's pretty hard to care about some jews by the sea when America and ISIS won't stop trying to 'liberate' you).


As for Palestine, no, they do not want Israelis dead. That's a fiction that Netanyahu and fox news like to sell, but it has no more basis in reality than the equally silly assertions that Israel enjoys blowing up apartment blocks.

You don't previously know this, but Palestinians routinely cross Israeli borders on a daily basis. For reasons ranging from VFR to employment, it is a very routine matter for the populations to intermingle, and it is not this perpetual stand off you seem to believe it is. There are even increasing numbers of Palestinian/Israeli marriages happening. This doesn't happen if they "want all Israelis" dead.

What Palestinians do want is to end the apartheid situation, they want the Jewish settlements dismantled or compensated for and they want to no longer be treated like second class citizens in their own homeland.


And this is really going to blow you away, but most Israelis are good with this. A few right wing or religious whack jobs saying otherwise will not change this. Those extremists need to exit the situation if Israel ever really wants to see a lasting peace. And if you're not for that, you're not for Israel.
Much like a GE90, I'm a huge fan of Big Twins...
 
jetero
Posts: 1993
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
To the Victor... goes the spoils of war.

The other side lost. And Jerusalem is the eternal earthly home of God.

Fighting that is like spitting in the wind.


God’s so lucky to have someone like you, DF, speak with such certainty on His behalf. I thought He warned against such things, but you must have a special dispensation that only comes with having been chosen specifically by Him. To propagate His word and damn His children who don’t conform to your (oops, I mean His) idea of what is right via the means of an aviation enthusiast, Internet forum, non-aviation channel. That’s probably why He gave you the bitcoins at the bargain price. Because of your foresight! And your selfless love for all of His lambs!

HALLELUJAH, DIRECTFLT! May He continue to bless your witnessing and righteously confident professation of His word!!!!!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Does Israel advocacy align you with support for Trump????

Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:12 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Apparently you'd love to so much that you made this post one of them. Asked and answered, see below. ..


Doesn't wash so I will ask you one more time. Produce a post of mine before this thread that says I don't support a two state solution.



DarkSnowyNight wrote:

The ridiculous assumption made here is something that only American right wing meddler types buy into.




So exactly why is Palestine shooting rockets and attacking soldiers with knives? Because they like them?
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!

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