TheSonntag
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Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:18 am

From today, the Berlin wall is longer gone than it existed. The Berlin Wall existed from August 13th, 1961 until November 9th, 1989.
 
MSPbrandon
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:25 am

Very Cool
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:43 am

:bigthumbsup:

thanks for remembering. One of the defining points in history.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:00 pm

I feel old now. I was in middle school when it came down.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
salttee
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:24 pm

I walked through Checkpoint Charlie in the summer of 1965.
I had to wear my class A uniform and get a new ID card.

There wasn't much to see on the other side.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:58 am

My goodness . . . this, and the fact that Lufthansa has a brand new livery makes two great news stories out of Germany this week . . . :spin:
 
marcelh
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:25 am

casinterest wrote:
I feel old now. I was in middle school when it came down.


Same here.... :old:
 
Noshow
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:32 am

Does anybody remember their east german state airline "Interflug"? They had some own "wall" within crew scheduling. Only selected few were put on flights to the west. Most of the staff had to remain inside the communist world. Like the rest of their population.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:27 pm

Don't forget there was a 'soft' wall prior to the hard wall. The 'Wall' was put up as the numbers of defectors increased, I was in 2nd Grade when it went up, seeing on the TV news here in the USA those trying but getting shot at, sometimes murdered, going over the Wall in the early days. The installation of the 'Wall' got lots of play here as showing the 'Godless Communists' who would put up a wall or shoot to kill their own people to prevent them from freedom.
In 1987, I saw the actual wall, mainly on the West side, where much of it was of political mural. It came within a few feet behind the Reichstag building and gave 'the bird' to East German Guards. I had also taken the train from Hannover to Berlin, and recall the checkpoints the train had to go through, a kind of wall too. I also took a tour into the East side, with minders.
In November, 1989, I recall seeing on TV the run up to and 'fall' of the wall and of divided Germany, the joy of seeing one of the most brutal symbols of Communism turned into rubble.
In late May 1990, during the transition period, of what was left of the wall, going through Checkpoint Charlie into the last days of the East, using their cheap money, walking around without a minder or as part of a tour including to the 'East' side of the Brandenburg gate, 2 excellent museums, their 'hall of the people' (capital building).
In mid-2000, I visited again, the wall only in bits, almost all of it gone and just a line of bricks in the street. For years the Chancellor of Germany has been in Merkel someone from the former East Germany.
Of course we still have brutal walls between countries, the worst is that of between North and South Korea. Hopefully in my remaining lifetime that wall will be gone too and see a unified Korea.
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm

God riddance...

Perhaps they should have kept it there as a monument of the pathological ideology of Marxism.
Young people don't learn enough about the historic horrors of marxism/collectivism.
Today many young kids even think socialism is cool.
link
It's disgracefull and shows the extreme lack of education and historic awareness.
If you thought nazism was bad, go have a look how many people died because of marxism.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:09 pm

salttee wrote:
Stalinist communism and socialism are two different things.

I feel so very sorry for you because you think your taxes are too high.
Poor pitiful you.


So then call it collectivism.
It all ends the same way.
History has shown that clear enough even for you to understand.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
salttee
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:10 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
God riddance...

Perhaps they should have kept it there as a monument of the pathological ideology of Marxism.
Young people don't learn enough about the historic horrors of marxism/collectivism.
Today many young kids even think socialism is cool.
link
It's disgracefull and shows the extreme lack of education and historic awareness.
If you thought nazism was bad, go have a look hove many people died because of marxism.

Stalinist communism and socialism are two different things.

I feel so very sorry for you because you think your taxes are too high.
Poor pitiful you.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:17 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
God riddance...

Perhaps they should have kept it there as a monument of the pathological ideology of Marxism.
Young people don't learn enough about the historic horrors of marxism/collectivism.


They have kept part of it as a memorial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-jl4YMd0ZA
 
B777LRF
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:47 am

When the first news broke of people scaling the wall, I called up a couple of mates and arranged a spontaneous roadtrip in the middle of the night. We arrived a few hours after the borders had been opened, and bucked the trend walking into the DDR. We stayed a few days in Berlin, soaking up history in the making and partying like mad with the locals from both sides of the wall.

Oh, and one of my travelling mates bought a Trabant for very little money, with the intent of driving it home. It broke down not far outside Berlin, where we unceremoniously dumped it at the side of the road.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
tommy1808
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:34 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
If you thought nazism was bad, go have a look how many people died because of marxism.


It has never been tried and hence never killed anyone.
Stalinism has as much to do with marxism as social darwinism with Darwins theory.

Marxism requires democracy as the first step, none of the so called communist nations was democratic.

The first two chapters of the communist manifesto are a perfect description of today's USA. Marx and Engels have been pretty clairvoyant. Class struggle is a pretty good match for what is going on.

Best regards
Thomas
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
It has never been tried and hence never killed anyone.
Stalinism has as much to do with marxism as social darwinism with Darwins theory.

Marxism requires democracy as the first step, none of the so called communist nations was democratic.

The first two chapters of the communist manifesto are a perfect description of today's USA. Marx and Engels have been pretty clairvoyant. Class struggle is a pretty good match for what is going on.


Oh, the usual "that was not real marxism" argument.
Fact of the matter is, that all systems that have spawned from marxist doctrine, have become murderous, oppresive, totalitarian and economical failed systems.
Anyone failing to realize the pathology in these doctrins is beyond ignorant. History does not lie. All states that have based their societies on collectivisic ideologies have failed miserably.

Perhaps one day you will realize how lucky you are to live in a society that repect the individual.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
tommy1808
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:46 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Oh, the usual "that was not real marxism" argument.


I know.. terrible that facts always have a liberal bias...

Fact of the matter is, that all systems that have spawned from marxist doctrine, have become murderous, oppresive, totalitarian and economical failed systems.


Wrong of course. Marxism has had strong influence on how Germany, France and many other countries operate. They are neither murderous, nor oppressive or totalitarian and fare well in economic terms.
That property, private or otherwise, has to be used to further the common good even made it in our constitution.....

Anyone failing to realize the pathology in these doctrins is beyond ignorant. History does not lie.


Exactly! But if you read history like others read the bible, only picking the parts that you like.

All states that have based their societies on collectivisic ideologies have failed miserably.


Germany is by constitution a federal, collectivistic, republic. We have low crime rates, high happiness, social security and a budget surplus. If that is failing miserable for you, i´ll like more failure.

Perhaps one day you will realize how lucky you are to live in a society that repect the individual.


Yeah, one very modeled on Marx and Engels ideas, implemented as intended, democracy first.

best regards
Thomas
This signature is a safe place.
 
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falstaff
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
One of the defining points in history.


Yes it is. When it went up as well as when it came down. I remember it's coming down very well. Even as I teenager in Colorado I knew it was a big deal.

casinterest wrote:
I feel old now. I was in middle school when it came down.

Me too

Dahlgardo wrote:
If you thought nazism was bad, go have a look how many people died because of marxism.

I had the conversation with a young coworker a couple years ago. She claims to be a diehard communist (not a socialist or Marxist). When I brought up that communism hasn't worked well in the past she told me "it hasn't been done correctly". You can't argue with that kind of logic. She thought Bernie Sanders was too right wing to be called a socialist. She doesn't work with me anymore.

In 2007 I became friends with a man from Halle, Germany. He is now in command of the Saxony-Anhault Police post in Halle. He began his law enforcement career in the DDR and learned to be police investigator in the USSR., his father was also a DDR policeman. I have traveled to visit he and his wife several times over the years. He was once a party member, but now would be considered someone who leans to the right, by European standards. I have driven around the former DDR with him and listened to his stories about the various places and things he saw as member of the Volkspolizei.

In 2009 my dad and I were drinking beer and cooking in my friend's garden. One his friends (who was my dad's age) had served in the DDR army at the same time my dad served the US Army in Vietnam. My dad and this guy talked for a long time about their army days. They both talked about how when they were young men they never thought they would be in what was the DDR drinking beer together. It was a great night... I had one of my worst hangovers ever the next day.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
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falstaff
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:18 pm

I got this for Christmas in 1989

Image
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
LMP737
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:59 am

Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
olle
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:40 am

I was 17 years old and we stayed in straalsund first week of November 1989. One day we went to Berlin and I passed check point charlie
 
olle
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:43 am

On the way back instead of driving the highway to Rostock the driver took the older road directly to straalsund and we went into a Soviet military "exersize". We were forced to drive back to Berlin and back to rostock
 
olle
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:44 am

Stasi broke into our bus by night and papers etc were everywhere but left video and TV's ;-)
 
c933103
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:16 pm

In other words... the two Korea have already been separated for more than double the time Germany was separated. The reunification of Germany was already hard enough and if it ever happens to Korea then that would be far more challenging.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:26 am

c933103 wrote:
In other words... the two Korea have already been separated for more than double the time Germany was separated. The reunification of Germany was already hard enough and if it ever happens to Korea then that would be far more challenging.


I agree that a reunification of Korea will be very hard, geopolitical, social and economically. North Koreans really have a much more distorted view of the south and the rest of the world than the DDR citizens ever had, as well a much more distorted view of their leader, almost God-like.

Separation of Korea: September 8th, 1945 - present. 73 years
Separation of Germany: November, 1948 - October 3rd, 1990. 42 years

So not yet the doubling you are talking about, but I have no doubt we will get there in 2029, on the other hand, it might flip within half a year from within.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In other words... the two Korea have already been separated for more than double the time Germany was separated. The reunification of Germany was already hard enough and if it ever happens to Korea then that would be far more challenging.


I agree that a reunification of Korea will be very hard, geopolitical, social and economically.


To throw in a number.... the reunification cost about two trillion Euro, i.e. 100% of Germany''s current national debt.

Best regards
Thomas
This signature is a safe place.
 
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SOBHI51
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:20 pm

casinterest wrote:
I feel old now. I was in middle school when it came down.

What should i say then? I was in middle school when it went UP. :old: :old: :old:
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In other words... the two Korea have already been separated for more than double the time Germany was separated. The reunification of Germany was already hard enough and if it ever happens to Korea then that would be far more challenging.


I agree that a reunification of Korea will be very hard, geopolitical, social and economically.


To throw in a number.... the reunification cost about two trillion Euro, i.e. 100% of Germany''s current national debt.

Best regards
Thomas


Will probably cost way more in Korea. One way or another it will have to be invested in North Korea to bring them up to speed, when (not if) the regime fails. On the other hand, it is economic activity, so will boost Korea's GDP.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:01 pm

SOBHI51 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I feel old now. I was in middle school when it came down.

What should i say then? I was in middle school when it went UP. :old: :old: :old:



Cane isn't wobbling enough :)

:white:
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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falstaff
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:20 pm

I don't think you can compare the DDR and the DPRK. The DDR had the highest standard of living in the Eastern Bloc. The citizens of the DDR were well educated. If I recall my middle school social studies class I think the DDR and USSR had a higher literacy level then the USA did. I know that certainly isn't the case in the DPRK. The citizens of the DDR didn't believe their leader was God like and they weren't isolated from the rest of the world in every aspect of life. Sure they were kept in the dark about many things, but nobody was told that Erich Honecker was the best golfer on the planet. They didn't tell people that Walter Ulbricht's birthday was celebrated across the world.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
c933103
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I agree that a reunification of Korea will be very hard, geopolitical, social and economically.


To throw in a number.... the reunification cost about two trillion Euro, i.e. 100% of Germany''s current national debt.

Best regards
Thomas


Will probably cost way more in Korea. One way or another it will have to be invested in North Korea to bring them up to speed, when (not if) the regime fails. On the other hand, it is economic activity, so will boost Korea's GDP.

It would be far more than economical cost. Economical cost is something that you can simply finance and build up and also something that the world can help with. They are the least part of the question. Social, Ideological and Cultural aspects are way harder. Even for those people who escaped from the North and reject North Korea system are having a hard time to live in modern South Korea, and the South Korean society is also having difficulties in accepting them even though they have dedicated schools that teach those escapees the difference in culture between both places. Now imagine what would happen when millions of more conservative ordinary North Korean citizens suddenly gained same citizenship as the South. Or maybe that won't happen as that would certainly impact the political balance in South Korea and also impact things like how Korean passport are treated around the world so it is also very possible for things like border check and different citizenship systems to remain in place for at least some years even after unification are to occur.

falstaff wrote:
I don't think you can compare the DDR and the DPRK. The DDR had the highest standard of living in the Eastern Bloc. The citizens of the DDR were well educated. If I recall my middle school social studies class I think the DDR and USSR had a higher literacy level then the USA did. I know that certainly isn't the case in the DPRK. The citizens of the DDR didn't believe their leader was God like and they weren't isolated from the rest of the world in every aspect of life. Sure they were kept in the dark about many things, but nobody was told that Erich Honecker was the best golfer on the planet. They didn't tell people that Walter Ulbricht's birthday was celebrated across the world.

According to analysts and stories, I think the literacy level among North Korean citizens should still be fairly high that al propaganda posters are drawn under the assumptions that people know how to read them and reports often include stories about what kids are experiencing in North Korean schools, However, the problem is what they are literating people in. Teaching them messages of treat other countries as enemy is even more worse than teaching them nothing at all.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Since February 5th: Berlin Wall gone longer than it existed

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:46 am

c933103 wrote:
Or maybe that won't happen as that would certainly impact the political balance in South Korea and also impact things like how Korean passport are treated around the world so it is also very possible for things like border check and different citizenship systems to remain in place for at least some years even after unification are to occur.


mmmmh.... no. South Korea has a constitution, and such a system would violate chapter II of that constitution in pretty much every article in it. Heck, that proposal wouldn´t make it past the preamble.

best regards
Thomas
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