Is this a trait or what?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... r-exhaust/

German carmakers backed studies exposing people and monkeys to toxic car exhaust

BERLIN — When German carmaker Volkswagen acknowledged last year that it was guilty of cheating on diesel emissions tests, the fallout cost the company $25 billion. But the full extent of the company’s willingness to sideline ethics concerns to increase profits is still emerging. Three German carmakers appear to have commissioned or supported a study in 2014 which exposed monkeys and humans to exhaust fumes and nitrogen dioxide, according to German media reports on Monday.

I know they took part in one of the great hoodwinks of our time, poisoning people at large with diesel particulates, but they did it in the lab too? There needs to be some serious repercussions...

Could some please change the title? It is a distasteful reference to WWII.

Dutchy wrote:

Could some please change the title? It is a distasteful reference to WWII.

Yes, the title is sensationalist. Nobody was "gassed"...

Route66 wrote:

Three German carmakers appear to have commissioned or supported a study in 2014 which exposed monkeys and humans to exhaust fumes and nitrogen dioxide, according to German media reports on Monday.

I have been a professional mechanic for 20 years. I have been exposed to lots of exhaust including many diesels built long before they had an emission control devices. There are probably millions of people like me; we never would say we have been gassed.

Route66 wrote:

poisoning people at large with diesel particulates, but they did it in the lab too? There needs to be some serious repercussions...

People need to stop whining about this nonsense. Yes, VW broke the rules. They are paying the price for that, but the general public wasn't harmed unless you you are civil attorney or some sort of environmental activist. Even the dirty VW diesel was WAY cleaner than they were 30 years ago. The way some people freak out about this you'd think we were all falling over dead in 1980.

If you call exposing people to toxic diesel fumes as gassing you'd have to call me gasser myself. I drove around a 72 Mercedes 220D polluting to my hearts content. All the old cars I've owned that have zero emissions equipment on them are gassing people right and left.

As VW origins in the 1930's Nazi era policy in Germany to provide a 'people car', any hint of exposing humans and primates to excessive exhaust that can cause harm is going to be seen in the worst light, like using the term 'gassing' as Nazis who used it to commit genocide and mass murder. If VW did what is alleged, it will just be used to go after them by competitors some of them with unclean histories and producing dirty diesels.

Dutchy wrote:

Could some please change the title? It is a distasteful reference to WWII.

Better yet flag it as a hate post.
route 66 is just a troll looking for attention

Dutchy wrote:

Could some please change the title? It is a distasteful reference to WWII.

Yes, it is. And it should not be forgotten, as we see today. Don't like that word :gas"? Even the German press is using it....

[A huge emissions-cheating scandal, accusations of widespread collusion and now experiments exposing monkeys and people to diesel fume gases.
http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-car-indust ... a-42352373

salttee wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Could some please change the title? It is a distasteful reference to WWII.

Better yet flag it as a hate post.
route 66 is just a troll looking for attention

Yes, I understand. Discussing the news that could embarrass a German is certainly a hate post.

Why are people here trying to hide the news?

falstaff wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Could some please change the title? It is a distasteful reference to WWII.

Yes, the title is sensationalist. Nobody was "gassed"...

Of course they were, like it or not, you cannot refute science.

falstaff wrote:

I have been a professional mechanic for 20 years. I have been exposed to lots of exhaust including many diesels built long before they had an emission control devices. There are probably millions of people like me; we never would say we have been gassed.

But, you were.

falstaff wrote:

Route66 wrote:

poisoning people at large with diesel particulates, but they did it in the lab too? There needs to be some serious repercussions...

People need to stop whining about this nonsense. Yes, VW broke the rules. They are paying the price for that, but the general public wasn't harmed unless you you are civil attorney or some sort of environmental activist. Even the dirty VW diesel was WAY cleaner than they were 30 years ago. The way some people freak out about this you'd think we were all falling over dead in 1980.

If you call exposing people to toxic diesel fumes as gassing you'd have to call me gasser myself. I drove around a 72 Mercedes 220D polluting to my hearts content. All the old cars I've owned that have zero emissions equipment on them are gassing people right and left.

Actually, the supposition that this did no harm is hugely false. Besides making a mockery of clean air laws, European researchers believe diesel fumes are costing up to 50,000 premature deaths every year. If you had asthma or any number of other respiratory illnesses, you would probably feel differently.

But route66, nobody discussing the issue at hand because of your title, but apparently it has been changed.

So on the issue, VW and the rest placed their bets wrong: diesel instead of electric. As for the research: it depends on what really happened, the controlling measures in place, the risk involved and how informed these people are and especially, why did these companies do this kind of research.

What has been the reaction in Germany from this scandal? Is it a "oh, you guys!" type reaction or a "send them to prison!" reaction?

CCGPV wrote:

What has been the reaction in Germany from this scandal? Is it a "oh, you guys!" type reaction or a "send them to prison!" reaction?

take a towel. stay calm.
few here really get into the hysterics mood that we see from our American friends.

VW has sold more cars than ever in 2017.

On gassing animals and people:
BMW, Mercedes and VW jointly ordered some research on diesel exhaust impact.
( Available data covers engines no longer in production ( no cleaning at all.)
The people doing the research (for money) got the idea to use primates for testing.

Waiting for alternate process offers on how to do physiological impact studies.
( using the relevant board of directors population will not do.)

I never trusted Herbie completely. Just kidding.

Don't they have live plants in their plants?

SMH has also run with the Washington Post story, so this is getting some significant publicity.

What I don't get is how healthy human beings would knowingly subject themselves to this testing. There must be more to it than what the report is saying. I don't get how anyone would knowingly put their health at risk in such a way. And if they were subjected to this without knowing the substances involved, then that would be an enormous scandal warranting criminal action against those responsible for the study and maybe even the breaking up of companies involved in the study too.

I'm very healthy and would never, ever submit myself to any kind of testing as that, and I can't imagine anyone else who would.

Nor I suppose would the likes of Ferdinand Piech, Stephan Winkelmann, Matthias Müller, Martin Winterkorn, Dr Dieter Zetsche or any of the other executives.

dtw2hyd wrote:

I never trusted Herbie completely. Just kidding.

Don't they have live plants in their plants?

Unsure about the VW people, but Ferrari certainly does (or did).

cpd wrote:

What I don't get is how healthy human beings would knowingly subject themselves to this testing. There must be more to it than what the report is saying. I don't get how anyone would knowingly put their health at risk in such a way.

I'm very healthy and would never, ever submit myself to any kind of testing as that, and I can't imagine anyone else who would.

I'm very healthy too and would never, ever submit myself to the kind of pollution that is found in crowded cities all over he world. As you said; I don't get how anyone would knowingly put their health at risk in such a way.

And yet..... billions of people in cities all around the world do this day after day; breathing in toxic car exhaust.

I guess many of these poor & disadvantaged folk live & work in cities in order to earn a few pathetic $$$ to put food on the table for their families. They must be mad! Thank goodness none of us are that stupid.

Obviously, from their viewpoint, getting paid to take part in a study where these conditions are replicated, in a laboratory environment, for a limited period of time, kinda sounds like a normal day at the office. Don't you think?

The Washington Post wrote:

A researcher involved in the study acknowledged the experiments’ existence on Monday, but cautioned that the deployed nitrogen dioxide levels resembled those found in normal work spaces

Totally outrageous! Off with their heads!

falstaff wrote:

I have been a professional mechanic for 20 years. I have been exposed to lots of exhaust including many diesels built long before they had an emission control devices. There are probably millions of people like me; we never would say we have been gassed.

Quite frankly, it's a bluddy miracle you are still alive mate......

/sarcasm OFF

WIederling wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

What has been the reaction in Germany from this scandal? Is it a "oh, you guys!" type reaction or a "send them to prison!" reaction?

take a towel. stay calm.
few here really get into the hysterics mood that we see from our American friends.

VW has sold more cars than ever in 2017.

On gassing animals and people:
BMW, Mercedes and VW jointly ordered some research on diesel exhaust impact.
( Available data covers engines no longer in production ( no cleaning at all.)
The people doing the research (for money) got the idea to use primates for testing.

Waiting for alternate process offers on how to do physiological impact studies.
( using the relevant board of directors population will not do.)

I get it but it was a big deal there, right? Surely there were some fines or things imposed by the German authorities? I've not kept up with it. It does seem like it was pretty blatant action by VW so surely there's some sort of pubic outcry?

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

cpd wrote:

What I don't get is how healthy human beings would knowingly subject themselves to this testing. There must be more to it than what the report is saying. I don't get how anyone would knowingly put their health at risk in such a way.

I'm very healthy and would never, ever submit myself to any kind of testing as that, and I can't imagine anyone else who would.

I'm very healthy too and would never, ever submit myself to the kind of pollution that is found in crowded cities all over he world. As you said; I don't get how anyone would knowingly put their health at risk in such a way.

And yet..... billions of people in cities all around the world do this day after day; breathing in toxic car exhaust.

I guess many of these poor & disadvantaged folk live & work in cities in order to earn a few pathetic $$$ to put food on the table for their families. They must be mad! Thank goodness none of us are that stupid.

Obviously, from their viewpoint, getting paid to take part in a study where these conditions are replicated, in a laboratory environment, for a limited period of time, kinda sounds like a normal day at the office. Don't you think?

The Washington Post wrote:

A researcher involved in the study acknowledged the experiments’ existence on Monday, but cautioned that the deployed nitrogen dioxide levels resembled those found in normal work spaces

Totally outrageous! Off with their heads!

falstaff wrote:

I have been a professional mechanic for 20 years. I have been exposed to lots of exhaust including many diesels built long before they had an emission control devices. There are probably millions of people like me; we never would say we have been gassed.

Quite frankly, it's a bluddy miracle you are still alive mate......

/sarcasm OFF

Nice straw man argument. So you'll happily submit yourself to putting on some sort of a mask and we'll pump it full of all sort of pollutants, and give you a small amount of money, maybe even a fast food outlet voucher in return. Which I've seen offered in some cases.

You think I don't work in a city to make money and pay my mortgage? And there are days when the pollution around here does make me feel unwell.

Perhaps the solution is to get all of the single-occupant car drivers driving to their CBD office at 7am, parking the car all day and then driving home at 5-6pm at night again to use some other form of transport. In this city, there are stacks of people who could do this, but they won't. Heaven forbid they'd have to associate with us heathen folk who use public transport or worse, should be killed because we dare to ride to work on a bicycle. Getting people who don't need to be on the road in their cars onto other means of transport would make a hell of a lot of difference not just to air quality but it'd also make it much easier to get around for those people who really do need to drive for their work.

A nice big congestion tax would do wonders in this city here. People only change their ways when they are forced to (aka when it costs them a lot of money).

This is not a hate thread/post. Anyone who says that is full of BS. It's always ok to criticize American companies according to most of our Euro friends here. This German company is guilty period. Stop trying to whitewash the facts. And yes, any German company that is stupid enough to do something like this deserves the negative press and the references to "actions" done in the past.

The original title for the thread that was selected by the OP, was most certainly below the belt: ie hate inspired.

On second thoughts, I don't think I'll reply regarding the topic title.

salttee wrote:

The original title for the thread that was selected by the OP, was most certainly below the belt: ie hate inspired.

I missed the original thread title so I will not comment, but wrong is wrong.

Route66 wrote:

I know they took part in one of the great hoodwinks of our time, poisoning people at large with diesel particulates, but they did it in the lab too? There needs to be some serious repercussions...

Careful, you're gonna give Scott Pruitt ideas, in addition to a hardon

DDR wrote:

I missed the original thread title so I will not comment, but wrong is wrong.

So a little more is known about the studies. Time for some nuances.

The level people were exposed to, were no higher than would be encountered in a busy street. And in The Netherlands, there were similar studies done. So probably in many more countries. It was passed by the ethics comity of the university. So probably the risk was minimal to the persons whom willingly participated. I can see the need for this kind of test, it should be known what the effect is on one's health of these emissions so the right environmental policies are implemented. If it should be funded by the car industry, that is another matter.

Besides that, the German auto industry needs to hang his head in shame for the diesel scandal.

The only thing I've been exposed to is 55mpg. Keep going VW!!!

dtw2hyd wrote:

I never trusted Herbie completely. Just kidding.

Don't they have live plants in their plants?

Not in the manufacturing areas. afair. Meisterbutze, Sekretariat, ... you'll find a Gummibaum or other potted plant there

The VW "Gläserne Manufaktur" site in Dresden may have some greenery in the visitor areas.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

I'm very healthy too and would never, ever submit myself to the kind of pollution that is found in crowded cities all over he world. As you said; I don't get how anyone would knowingly put their health at risk in such a way.

And yet..... billions of people in cities all around the world do this day after day; breathing in toxic car exhaust.

Makes sense. Most everybody does something that isn't healthy for them in one way or another and takes years off their life. You can't live forever.

Route66 wrote:

But, you were.

That's a big stretch.... Working on a running engine in a well ventilated area is not being gassed. Being gassed would be working on a running engine in a ventilated area. You could say that while drinking beer you have been gassed by the carbon dioxide. I'm still alive and I work on cars voluntarily. I know the risks and I choose to ignore them. The same way billions of people do things that aren't good for them. People around the globe use narcotics that are bad for them and they know it. People drink alcohol knowing it isn't good for them and do it anyway. People smoke tobacco and know it's not good for them and do it anyway.

DDR wrote:

This is not a hate thread/post. Anyone who says that is full of BS. It's always ok to criticize American companies according to most of our Euro friends here. This German company is guilty period. Stop trying to whitewash the facts. And yes, any German company that is stupid enough to do something like this deserves the negative press and the references to "actions" done in the past.

Exposing people and test animals in an controlled environment to concentrations at or below the level of workplaces and streets to get more hard data is evil? You know the kind where no imminent health concern is present or people would drop like flies all over the planet.

Without the manipulation scandal this wouldn't even be newsworthy, aside of not being news, as the study was done years ago and the institution doing it doesn't even exist anymore.

I do certainly hope that you don't use cosmetics, medication, check the working conditions of companies making everything you use and are a strict vegan, or otherwise your post is pure hypocrisy.

Talk about tossing lots of VAG employees and managers in jail for the manipulation is totally fine, but the outrage over this is just fake.

You can not just go and make experiments like this, neither on Humans nor on animals, they have to be approved. So, different from your assessment they are not guilty of anything, aside of bad PR strategies and lack of transperancy.

Best regards
Thomas

It turns out that the main problem is that these test results were buried because they showed a 2013 car was more toxic than a 1997 pick-up truck...

Diesel car sales here in France are plunging, now below 50% of sales from a high of almost 80%, and it will go down more when the government finally removes the incentives for companies to buy them (my company car is diesel because of that). Resale value of used diesel cars is dropping too.

cpd wrote:

Perhaps the solution is to get all of the single-occupant car drivers driving to their CBD office at 7am, parking the car all day and then driving home at 5-6pm at night again to use some other form of transport. In this city, there are stacks of people who could do this, but they won't. Heaven forbid they'd have to associate with us heathen folk who use public transport or worse, should be killed because we dare to ride to work on a bicycle. Getting people who don't need to be on the road in their cars onto other means of transport would make a hell of a lot of difference not just to air quality but it'd also make it much easier to get around for those people who really do need to drive for their work.

A nice big congestion tax would do wonders in this city here. People only change their ways when they are forced to (aka when it costs them a lot of money).

A congestion tax won't affect the people you seem to be complaining about. They might even welcome it as it should improve traffic.

Aesma wrote:

Diesel car sales here in France are plunging, now below 50% of sales from a high of almost 80%, and it will go down more when the government finally removes the incentives for companies to buy them (my company car is diesel because of that). Resale value of used diesel cars is dropping too.

There are no incentives for diesels for companies here and maybe 90% of all company cars are diesel.

As long as diesel is less taxed than gas and considering company cars usually drive longer kms/year than private cars it will be like that.

Aesma wrote:

It turns out that the main problem is that these test results were buried because they showed a 2013 car was more toxic than a 1997 pick-up truck...

Diesel car sales here in France are plunging, now below 50% of sales from a high of almost 80%, and it will go down more when the government finally removes the incentives for companies to buy them (my company car is diesel because of that). Resale value of used diesel cars is dropping too.

Looks like this is so much baloney:
https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/de ... -10-17.png

covers the swap over to a majority of diesel cars and a general increase in cars on the road.
No distinct bump from cheating diesels visible in the relevant timeframe ( 2008 onwards).