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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:40 am

It is interesting to see also some Tories now trying to muddy the waters with this issue. Dan Hannan has an article in the Express here arguing that a Customs Union is not necessary and looking at the Swiss model.

He however conveniently looks over the fact that Switzerland is in EFTA and also in the Schengen area (so crossing Threresa Mays "red lines"). There are other such articles in the press this week - there is a lot of positioning going on ahead of the CU commons vote next month.

In other news the effects of Brexit negotiations on the NHS are already being felt with further data on EU27 Nurses leaving the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... up-britain

3,962 EU nurses left the NHS last year, and only 805 joined (down from 6,382 the year before).
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:24 am

Richard28 wrote:
In other news the effects of Brexit negotiations on the NHS are already being felt with further data on EU27 Nurses leaving the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... up-britain

3,962 EU nurses left the NHS last year, and only 805 joined (down from 6,382 the year before).


Gosh, I'm surprised we haven't had a sevenair meme for that. :liar:
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:07 pm

Can I ask the pro EU clan why Qatar Airways are adding Two new UK destinations? Why Emirates are adding Stansted and the Chinese airlines are adding heaps of UK flights? I thought we would be worse off with brexit?

My employer is creating 1500 new high skilled, high paid jobs in my local city, why is this?

I invite people to comment.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:28 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Can I ask the pro EU clan why Qatar Airways are adding Two new UK destinations? Why Emirates are adding Stansted and the Chinese airlines are adding heaps of UK flights? I thought we would be worse off with brexit?

My employer is creating 1500 new high skilled, high paid jobs in my local city, why is this?

I invite people to comment.


Qatar and emirates are expanding because there is demand and they want to increase market share?

I don’t know who your employer is or what they do, so don’t know the answer here!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:53 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Can I ask the pro EU clan why Qatar Airways are adding Two new UK destinations? Why Emirates are adding Stansted and the Chinese airlines are adding heaps of UK flights? I thought we would be worse off with brexit?

My employer is creating 1500 new high skilled, high paid jobs in my local city, why is this?

I invite people to comment.


Qatar and emirates are expanding because there is demand and they want to increase market share?

I don’t know who your employer is or what they do, so don’t know the answer here!


I thought remainers predicted economic turmoil?
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:03 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I thought remainers predicted economic turmoil?


No that’s what sevenair thinks we think!

On the whole we are much more likely to consider evidence and make informed decisions.

In addition to many risks, there will be winners and losers with Brexit - we on this side would of course contend that the losers offset the winners.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Yes Brexit will have an overall negative impact, not be negative for everything.

As for your examples, Brexit hasn't happened yet. Adding new frequencies for airlines is not like building a plant, they can always leave pretty fast when Brexit actually happens, if it has a negative impact on the routes.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
Yes Brexit will have an overall negative impact, not be negative for everything.

As for your examples, Brexit hasn't happened yet. Adding new frequencies for airlines is not like building a plant, they can always leave pretty fast when Brexit actually happens, if it has a negative impact on the routes.


I can give you an example of a plant that will open creating 750 jobs, in 2019, after brexit.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.wale ... 285750.amp

While brexit hasn't happened, it's less than a year away, most companies plan 10 years in advance so I would have expected a mass exodus.
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LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:36 pm

Looks like non-EU/EEA/Swiss nationals will need to pay EUR 7 to visit the Schegen area (entry fee valid for 3 years) as of January 2020 (or at least, that's the current planning).

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/04/25/european-travel-information-and-authorisation-system-etias-council-confirms-agreement-with-european-parliament/
https://etias.com/
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:49 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I can give you an example of a plant that will open creating 750 jobs, in 2019, after brexit.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.wale ... 285750.amp

While brexit hasn't happened, it's less than a year away, most companies plan 10 years in advance so I would have expected a mass exodus.


Did anyone said that no new fatory would be announced after the Brexi referendumt? Moreover, when did Aston Martin decide to build the factory (which BTW is close to their HQ)? Yes, it was in 2016. Brexit didn't exists at the time. In essence, the only thing what counts is what companies are going to do (and yes I know that the Mini Cooper is going to be build in the UK as well).

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/aston-martin-chose-wales-place-10942606

Anyway, not a good example to prove your point.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:49 pm

Aston Martin sells cars (or in the case of that plant, an abomination) that cost more than a house, if Brexit means they'll have some thousands £ added costs to export them, it won't be the end of the world.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:47 pm

LJ wrote:
Looks like non-EU/EEA/Swiss nationals will need to pay EUR 7 to visit the Schegen area (entry fee valid for 3 years) as of January 2020 (or at least, that's the current planning).

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/04/25/european-travel-information-and-authorisation-system-etias-council-confirms-agreement-with-european-parliament/
https://etias.com/


What a shame. More than happy to pay the 7 Euros for a 3 year entry. ESTA costs more and only gets me 2 years!

Back to Aston Martin. Still 750 jobs for brexit Britain! Who mentioned about not many new factories being built? Britain has been a service based economy for many, many years now.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:11 pm

Just a shame that EUR7 does not buy you back the right to live, work, retire and have an indexing state pension in the EU27 that we are set to lose :(
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Just a shame that EUR7 does not buy you back the right to live, work, retire and have an indexing state pension in the EU27 that we are set to lose :(


Luckily I have no interest in living in any European country other than the UK. Just my wishes and mine alone, obviously others will have different ambitions.

Now Canada, Australia, New Zealand and possibly California may one day be possible for me if i fit the Criteria in say 10 years.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:29 pm

LJ wrote:
Looks like non-EU/EEA/Swiss nationals will need to pay EUR 7 to visit the Schegen area (entry fee valid for 3 years) as of January 2020 (or at least, that's the current planning).

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/04/25/european-travel-information-and-authorisation-system-etias-council-confirms-agreement-with-european-parliament/
https://etias.com/


I doubt the UK then adds a recipricol fee.

That said I would think that all EU citizens will need passports to enter the UK after Brexit rather than the current acceptance of ID cards.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:11 am

Richard28 wrote:
It is interesting to see also some Tories now trying to muddy the waters with this issue. Dan Hannan has an article in the Express here arguing that a Customs Union is not necessary and looking at the Swiss model.

He however conveniently looks over the fact that Switzerland is in EFTA and also in the Schengen area (so crossing Threresa Mays "red lines"). There are other such articles in the press this week - there is a lot of positioning going on ahead of the CU commons vote next month.

Amazing! Two year and four months after DC announced the referendum December 2015, and his folks still have no idea what it is all about. Neither do journalists have the intellectual capacity to ask relevant questions to the politicians.

Richard28 wrote:
3,962 EU nurses left the NHS last year, and only 805 joined (down from 6,382 the year before).

Is that a problem? If so, then pay them the same amount in Euro as before the UK pound began to shrink December 2015, then they will turn back. They (or most of them) come to earn money, not to play Mother Teresa.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:57 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Is that a problem? If so, then pay them the same amount in Euro as before the UK pound began to shrink December 2015, then they will turn back. They (or most of them) come to earn money, not to play Mother Teresa.


Yes it is a problem.

so options are either:

1) Pay "foreign" nurses more than UK nurses - I don't think that would go down well with UK staff!
2) Give all nurses an uplift of about 12% - that would cost a lot of money - remember its taken the government 7 years to give nurses an inflationary rise let alone that (cost of that 6.5% pay rise (not just nurses) over 3 years is £3.3bn)

I would suggest a third option:

3) think about why Sterling tanked against the euro (i.e. leaving the EU/SM/CU), and do something about it - perhaps re-consider these options. It would be cheaper, and do the economy some good as well!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:57 pm

Richard28 wrote:
think about why Sterling tanked against the euro (i.e. leaving the EU/SM/CU), and do something about it - perhaps re-consider these options. It would be cheaper, and do the economy some good as well!


While that may be a logical proposal for a problem solving approach to a purely technical issue, there's just too much emotion injected into the whole Brexit debate for that to work here, which is why a pragmatic outcome needs to be found asap: one that can be supported by a large majority of Brits, even if it won't be to their full liking and would never have been their choice in any poll which would look beyond the naive and way too simplistic LEAVE or REMAIN as was on the ballot paper.

That pragmatic outcome likely is somewhere outside of the EU, inside the CU and closely aligned with the rules of the SM to the point that there will be very few economic benefits from that 'bespoke' position: yes, that version of Brexit will thus come with an economic cost, but it will be manageable and it will somehow give the impression of having taken back control so it is the best compromise there is: all the more radical versions, be it a pure Brexit or a return to the EU can never be a good outcome as they will be challenged in due time again: the UK can not have this discussion about where it stands in relationship to the EU every 15 years, given it will take about that long to stabilize the economy from any decision to change its position.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:01 pm

Richard28 wrote:
2) Give all nurses an uplift of about 12% - that would cost a lot of money - remember its taken the government 7 years to give nurses an inflationary rise let alone that (cost of that 6.5% pay rise (not just nurses) over 3 years is £3.3bn)


That should not be a problem, given that there will go £ 350m a week extra to the NHS :roll:

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
2) Give all nurses an uplift of about 12% - that would cost a lot of money - remember its taken the government 7 years to give nurses an inflationary rise let alone that (cost of that 6.5% pay rise (not just nurses) over 3 years is £3.3bn)


That should not be a problem, given that there will go £ 350m a week extra to the NHS :roll:

Image


Nah about 1/3 of that is more realistic. Come on, we all know both leave and remain campaigns both talked utter crap. Look at project fear before someone asks me for an argument from remain.

My mind was made up to vote leave long before the big red bus made an appearence.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:
My mind was made up to vote leave long before the big red bus made an appearence.


can I ask your reasons why?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:32 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
My mind was made up to vote leave long before the big red bus made an appearence.


can I ask your reasons why?


I felt things were getting out of control, especially in my home town. In recent years we have seen huge ammounts of migrants move in, putting immense pressure on the local Hospital, schools and housing. I would like to buy a house one day and demand is increasing rapidly just driving up the house prices. Houses are being built at the expense of greenfield sites which we will never get back. I could of told you all this 5 years ago.

I'm in no way racist or have anything against migrants. It is not their fault one bit, it's the fault of the EU. If i'd been born into a rich family and had everything handed to me on a plate it would of been a different story.

I'm also not anti immigration, I think it's great people want to come here and work. But I also think we should be able to control who is coming and at what pace.
Net migration should be 50k/year max not pushing 300,000 as it has been.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:56 am

Arion640 wrote:


Thanks for your insight :)

The immigration issue does seem to be the main factor for most of the leave vote.

I do wonder if the Belgian solution to this would have been acceptable (most people it would seem did not known about this pre-referendum - even me to be honest!), where even EU citizens need to show that they can support themselves financially and provide health insurance - so not relying on state run health services if staying over three months.

details are here:
https://www.expatica.com/be/visas-and-p ... 43311.html

Had the UK adopted thsee kind of measures would this have altered your view?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:35 am

A lot of the British ressentiment against the EU is actually not because of EU policies at all, but because of UK government policies.

Just like the whole non-discussion on the return to blue passports has shown, a lot of what the EU has openly been accused of as imposing on Britain has actually been decided freely and unilaterally by a certain political elite which subsequently blamed the EU for it when the consequences of their own choices became clear!

The housing crisis is a nice example of that too: reality is not that houses in the UK have become totally unaffordable to young people because of too many immigrants coming to the UK like you think, but because the UK has a unique system for Europe in which it is very easy to speculate short term on the rising value of property.
That speculative aspect, combined with the fact it is extremely hard to get planning permission to build a new family house on an open plot of land (provided you can even buy one first) makes a family house no longer seen foremost as a home, but rather as an investment opportunity in the UK.
That's not the EU's fault, it's the fault of choices made by British politicians who should:
-) start to develop new towns and cities (how many new towns have been created in the UK? In The Netherlands or Belgium we regularly create new towns)
-) force large land owners to sell (some of their) land if they don't develop it so as to increase the offer and thus lower the prices
-) act against the short term speculation on property by taxing away the profit on any resale of an estate within say 5 years or so

Same with the example Richard28 gives about "social security tourism":
the EU allows for functional mechanisms by which any EU country can prevent EU citizens to become social security tourists: it works well in Belgium.
Just as the EU allowed countries to limit the number of EU immigrants during the first 10 years of membership of their country.
Yet the UK was the only EU country not making use of even 1 of these 2 provisions because it wanted to take maximum benefit of the possibilities cheap labour offered to their economy, to the point of disregarding the negative effects on their own population even!
Indeed, your elected politicians in power in Westminster set the interests of the UK economy (and thus the wallets of the few yet very wealthy and influential owners of British companies) before that of the millions of people they were supposed to represent.

I perfectly understand the anger amongst ordinary people over what the UK turned out to be since PM Tatcher transformed the country, but I fail to see how handing more power to exactly those British politicians who created the mess and subsequently blamed the EU for it, is going to sort it out?!
Remember the preferred solution now advocated by these politicians is for Britain to go GLOBALLY?!
So in other words: an extra dosis of the same medication which was already quite sickening in smaller doses...
I'm sure that'll work out... for the happy few... then after a decade or so, they start to blame globalization for the obvious negative consequences on ordinary people...
There's a guy in the White House doing just that quite successfully, right now, isn't there?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:06 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Remember the preferred solution now advocated by these politicians is for Britain to go GLOBALLY?!

Don't fall for the spin sabenapilot!

Remember that through the EU we have trade deals in palace with 19 of the other 23 developed economies (FTSE definition), which we are either set to lose, or at least have some barriers to trade put in place on leaving (eg quotas, tariffs, customs)

Of the 4 where there are no deals, the EU has given the green light, after years of preparatory talks (going back 10 years) to put in place deals with Singapore (terms have been agreed), Australia and New Zealand

That just leaves USA where TTIP has been in negotations for years (and still ongoing), and lets face it, Trump is not one for trade deals currently.

In addition to this there are many other agreements in place, partially in place, pending and being negotiated - full details here

Scrapping all these negotiations and not being part of these deals and eventual deals, and asking Liam Fox to replicate all of this is not going global, quite the opposite.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 am

Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
My mind was made up to vote leave long before the big red bus made an appearence.


can I ask your reasons why?


I felt things were getting out of control, especially in my home town. In recent years we have seen huge ammounts of migrants move in, putting immense pressure on the local Hospital, schools and housing. I would like to buy a house one day and demand is increasing rapidly just driving up the house prices. Houses are being built at the expense of greenfield sites which we will never get back. I could of told you all this 5 years ago.

I'm in no way racist or have anything against migrants. It is not their fault one bit, it's the fault of the EU. If i'd been born into a rich family and had everything handed to me on a plate it would of been a different story.

I'm also not anti immigration, I think it's great people want to come here and work. But I also think we should be able to control who is coming and at what pace.
Net migration should be 50k/year max not pushing 300,000 as it has been.


Yet with immigration numbers as they are UK business complains about lack of skills and cheap labour, and unemployed are at all-times low. If infrastructures and services cannot cope with the pace of economy that's entirely on the UK government policies, through tax and investment.

Successive governments have been decades kicking the can down the road because that needs money, and money comes from taxes (and taxes are bad).

So this is another cake case. You can't base your economy on international expertise and cheap labour then complain that those immigrants strain housing and healthcare if you don't match growth with investment.
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:49 am

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:


Thanks for your insight :)

The immigration issue does seem to be the main factor for most of the leave vote.

I do wonder if the Belgian solution to this would have been acceptable (most people it would seem did not known about this pre-referendum - even me to be honest!), where even EU citizens need to show that they can support themselves financially and provide health insurance - so not relying on state run health services if staying over three months.

details are here:
https://www.expatica.com/be/visas-and-p ... 43311.html

Had the UK adopted thsee kind of measures would this have altered your view?


To be honest, all I see is the UK government shooting themselves in the foot time and time again. You refer to the "Belgian solution".

In reality, the UK's decision not to do that was theirs and theirs alone. We recently moved from the UK to Spain. I was required to show I had enough funds to live there and either NHS coverage due to retirement or private healthcare with no deductible/excess. The UK had the option do do that. Just like there was no requirement to have a burgundy passport cover rather than the traditional blue one.

But, in reality, the EU citizens coming to work and live in the UK are not a drain on the economy and despite what the fake news would have you believe, they are very productive members of society.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:46 am

mmo wrote:
But, in reality, the EU citizens coming to work and live in the UK are not a drain on the economy and despite what the fake news would have you believe, they are very productive members of society.


absolutely, and of course under these Brexit negotiations it is likely that those who are here at end of transition will get to stay anyway, so there will only be a reduction in further new immigrants, not those that are already here who (quite rightly) get to stay.

Even here, the government has been playing politics and not announcing what that new migration figure is and delaying release of any strategy on this issue, so we still do not know what immigration policy we will have afrer Brexit/transition and what the immigration "number" and what will the geographic/job type distribution will be?

Arion640 wrote:
I'm also not anti immigration, I think it's great people want to come here and work. But I also think we should be able to control who is coming and at what pace. Net migration should be 50k/year max not pushing 300,000 as it has been.


The net immigration figure for y/e September 2017 was 244,000. Of these the vast majority (205,000) were non EU, with 90,000 EU nationals and -52,000 British (i.e. there was a net emigration of British from the UK).

So here it can be seen that the EU is not the biggest source of immigration anyway, so Brexit, with the consequences on our freedoms, trade and economy does not tackle the majority of the issue (if you see it as an issue, which I of course do not).

This 50,000 figure also seems very low, when we consider that just for Nurses (which are of course needed) the EU immigration figure has been around 7,000 - let alone all the other jobs from skilled jobs such as Doctors and scientists to unskilled jobs such as Barista's and Strawberry pickers.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:42 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

can I ask your reasons why?


I felt things were getting out of control, especially in my home town. In recent years we have seen huge ammounts of migrants move in, putting immense pressure on the local Hospital, schools and housing. I would like to buy a house one day and demand is increasing rapidly just driving up the house prices. Houses are being built at the expense of greenfield sites which we will never get back. I could of told you all this 5 years ago.

I'm in no way racist or have anything against migrants. It is not their fault one bit, it's the fault of the EU. If i'd been born into a rich family and had everything handed to me on a plate it would of been a different story.

I'm also not anti immigration, I think it's great people want to come here and work. But I also think we should be able to control who is coming and at what pace.
Net migration should be 50k/year max not pushing 300,000 as it has been.


Yet with immigration numbers as they are UK business complains about lack of skills and cheap labour, and unemployed are at all-times low. If infrastructures and services cannot cope with the pace of economy that's entirely on the UK government policies, through tax and investment.

Successive governments have been decades kicking the can down the road because that needs money, and money comes from taxes (and taxes are bad).

So this is another cake case. You can't base your economy on international expertise and cheap labour then complain that those immigrants strain housing and healthcare if you don't match growth with investment.


If you can't acknowledge that there's a demand side to the lack of available services there's something wrong. granted things get under funded, but it's not the job of a UK Government to be constantly finding money just because people that weren't born here want to live here. It would be a never ending cycle.

I don't want to see greenfield sites being constantly turned over for Infrastructure.
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:43 pm

Richard28 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Remember the preferred solution now advocated by these politicians is for Britain to go GLOBALLY?!

Don't fall for the spin sabenapilot!


Don't worry, I don't fall for the spin, I merely point out it out.

Britain's lower middle class is been as good as ruined by a systematic and unstoppable push towards an extremely liberal economic model which wants to do away with as much social protections and immigration limitations as it possibly can, all for the sake of maximizing the country's economic growth.
The EU has been used as a convenient scapegoat by successive British governments to first justify and then blame the very rapid and often extremely radical implementation of all of these political choices on, yet the EU does not advocate such a liberal economic model like Britain adopted at all!

A country can perfectly control immigration as an EU member, it can limit access to its social security system as EU member, it can have a correct minimum wage and good labour laws as EU member,... A country just has to sign up to it, yet the UK governments systematically opted out on all restraining mechanisms for the sake of gaining a competitive edge over the other EU members!

The foreigners in the UK are not the problem, they are the symptom of bad economic policies by successive UK governments.
Getting rid of them (or controlling their inflow) isn't going to solve the problem the UK faces, but that's exactly what the UK government plans to do anyway: try to remove the visual symptoms of the disease and thus please the angry people for a while, while getting on with the same liberal economic policies, but on a global scale now (at least in theory, if Britain ever regains the same level of global access to developed markets as it currently holds as a EU member; hence the conservatives, even the hardest of Brexiteers being so eager to pay hefty for just a brief deal with the EU which keep everything in place till at least 2021).
It's actually quite disgusting if you think about it, isn't it?

DC shouldn't have called a silly referendum on staying in the EU, he should have scrapped the many opt outs the UK holds on social matters, on immigration matters, on economic matters and start implementing the full package of EU rules on the SM as they were designed for, just like Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany etc do with success: the ordinary people on the streets in the UK would have felt much better off by now than they currently do, almost 2 years after their frustrated vote for Brexit which has changed nothing yet, and wont for a very long time... But obviously the Conservative party donors wouldn't have loved it very much.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1999
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re-reading my last post I cant help to find the irony of British politics at the moment.

Historically we have those on the right who (arguably) have less desire to provide social services and believe in capitalism, which in economic terms is fundamentally the laws of demand and supply.

Yet here we have the Brexit supporting right wing (predominantly) who now do not believe in supply and demand in relation to migration, and why..? because of the alleged social impact.

its all a bit topsy turvey.... many politicians are being disingenuous.... the truth is out there!
 
JJJ
Posts: 2761
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:24 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

I felt things were getting out of control, especially in my home town. In recent years we have seen huge ammounts of migrants move in, putting immense pressure on the local Hospital, schools and housing. I would like to buy a house one day and demand is increasing rapidly just driving up the house prices. Houses are being built at the expense of greenfield sites which we will never get back. I could of told you all this 5 years ago.

I'm in no way racist or have anything against migrants. It is not their fault one bit, it's the fault of the EU. If i'd been born into a rich family and had everything handed to me on a plate it would of been a different story.

I'm also not anti immigration, I think it's great people want to come here and work. But I also think we should be able to control who is coming and at what pace.
Net migration should be 50k/year max not pushing 300,000 as it has been.


Yet with immigration numbers as they are UK business complains about lack of skills and cheap labour, and unemployed are at all-times low. If infrastructures and services cannot cope with the pace of economy that's entirely on the UK government policies, through tax and investment.

Successive governments have been decades kicking the can down the road because that needs money, and money comes from taxes (and taxes are bad).

So this is another cake case. You can't base your economy on international expertise and cheap labour then complain that those immigrants strain housing and healthcare if you don't match growth with investment.


If you can't acknowledge that there's a demand side to the lack of available services there's something wrong. granted things get under funded, but it's not the job of a UK Government to be constantly finding money just because people that weren't born here want to live here. It would be a never ending cycle.

I don't want to see greenfield sites being constantly turned over for Infrastructure.


As someone pointed out already, supply and demand.

You can't bask in the light of look how well our companies are doing without acknowledging that is thanks to an influx of foreigners who need housing and healthcare pretty much the same as other human beings.

Pocketing the extra tax revenue but not fixing the supply/demand equation is the pure definition of kicking the can down the road. Bad planning (or a total lack thereof might be more correct).

Alternatively freeze the economy, tax or regulate the hell out of those companies so that they don't need as many employees (foreigners or otherwise).
 
Arion640
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:53 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Yet with immigration numbers as they are UK business complains about lack of skills and cheap labour, and unemployed are at all-times low. If infrastructures and services cannot cope with the pace of economy that's entirely on the UK government policies, through tax and investment.

Successive governments have been decades kicking the can down the road because that needs money, and money comes from taxes (and taxes are bad).

So this is another cake case. You can't base your economy on international expertise and cheap labour then complain that those immigrants strain housing and healthcare if you don't match growth with investment.


If you can't acknowledge that there's a demand side to the lack of available services there's something wrong. granted things get under funded, but it's not the job of a UK Government to be constantly finding money just because people that weren't born here want to live here. It would be a never ending cycle.

I don't want to see greenfield sites being constantly turned over for Infrastructure.


As someone pointed out already, supply and demand.

You can't bask in the light of look how well our companies are doing without acknowledging that is thanks to an influx of foreigners who need housing and healthcare pretty much the same as other human beings.

Pocketing the extra tax revenue but not fixing the supply/demand equation is the pure definition of kicking the can down the road. Bad planning (or a total lack thereof might be more correct).

Alternatively freeze the economy, tax or regulate the hell out of those companies so that they don't need as many employees (foreigners or otherwise).


Again you see, you're not taking into account of what I actually said. I did say I'm for immigration to some extent, just not unsustainable levels we have been seeing!
319 320 321 346 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75
 
mmo
Posts: 1443
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:47 pm

Arion640 wrote:

If you can't acknowledge that there's a demand side to the lack of available services there's something wrong. granted things get under funded, but it's not the job of a UK Government to be constantly finding money just because people that weren't born here want to live here. It would be a never ending cycle.

I don't want to see greenfield sites being constantly turned over for Infrastructure.


Excuse my bluntness, but I don't think you really get it. You infer in your comments above, the money is needed because it's not the government's job to find money for services. It is a fact, legal immigrants into the UK pay their own way. If you work, NHS is funded through your taxes. You seem to overlook that part of the equation.

The NHS, for example, is short of funds for a couple of key reasons. First of all, the budget cuts, aka austerity, done under the conservatives have impacted the NHS dramatically. The funding shortage is exacerbated by an aging population which has increased the demands on the NHS. So, even with no cuts in funding, the NHS would need more money just because of change in demographics, not because of people wanting to live here who can't pay their way.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 6517
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:09 pm

Brexit is like the Battle of Britain. One has to pay every price and bear every burden for the freedom of the UK.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2761
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:56 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

If you can't acknowledge that there's a demand side to the lack of available services there's something wrong. granted things get under funded, but it's not the job of a UK Government to be constantly finding money just because people that weren't born here want to live here. It would be a never ending cycle.

I don't want to see greenfield sites being constantly turned over for Infrastructure.


As someone pointed out already, supply and demand.

You can't bask in the light of look how well our companies are doing without acknowledging that is thanks to an influx of foreigners who need housing and healthcare pretty much the same as other human beings.

Pocketing the extra tax revenue but not fixing the supply/demand equation is the pure definition of kicking the can down the road. Bad planning (or a total lack thereof might be more correct).

Alternatively freeze the economy, tax or regulate the hell out of those companies so that they don't need as many employees (foreigners or otherwise).


Again you see, you're not taking into account of what I actually said. I did say I'm for immigration to some extent, just not unsustainable levels we have been seeing!


Unsustainable for social services apparently yes, unsustainable for the labour market very much not. If anything if should still be higher (according to several British business associations).

So who's in change of planning social services so that they are available to everyone who needs them?
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:36 pm

Britain’s economy is losing momentum as quarterly growth falls to just 0.1%, the weakest since 2012.

UK growth slows to just 0.1%.
Construction slumps, manufacturing is sluggish.
GDP-per-head has shrunk.

More project fear some will say, but it is hard to argue with economic facts.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... iness-live
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1999
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:57 pm

seahawk wrote:
Brexit is like the Battle of Britain. One has to pay every price and bear every burden for the freedom of the UK.


but what freedoms seahawk?

    * In order to sell in to the single market UK Business will have to adhere to EU regulations and product specifications as they do today.
    * Freedom to have out own trade deals means losing trade deals with most of the planet
    * Freedom from European laws? well we are going to have to mirror them very closely in order to trade with the EU or have alignment for any customs union, one of which the government has already agreed to

Meanwhile we lose
    * Freedom to travel through europe without fee or hindrance
    * Freedoms to work anywhere in the EU
    * Freedoms to retire in the EU
    * We are likely to lose freedom to sell our services industry to the EU

It's easy to say "freedoms" - what specifically do you mean, and what specifically will we gain?
 
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seahawk
Posts: 6517
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:57 pm

Say, a blue passport. The whole decision never was about facts, it was a about feelings and the feeling was based on a long cultivated us versus them attitude when it comes to the EU. I personally hope for a hard Brexit to get over with this once and for all. It would be best for the UK, as the politicians there will no longer have the EU to blame for their problems and it will be best for the EU, as it means the Uk can no longer meddle in its affairs.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 1999
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:22 pm

wow, Hard Brexit, seriously?? everyone to their own opinion I guess.

seahawk wrote:
It would be best for the UK, as the politicians there will no longer have the EU to blame for their problems


No no no, after Brexit, whatever happens next, the same old politicians will always blame the EU for what transpires.

Leopords can't change their spots.

The EU has been an easy scapegoat up to now and will regrettably continue to be so in the future, if not more so.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1999
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:36 pm

seahawk wrote:
The whole decision never was about facts, it was a about feelings and the feeling was based on a long cultivated us versus them attitude when it comes to the EU


That is why there is such a divide.

For me it is about facts, such as employment, freedoms, wealth, peace, security, health, science, education, travel, trade... The EU is a better place for all of these, hands down.

you are right that it has been "long cultivated us versus them". This has been a consequence of many euromyths that have been planted over the years in the UK press and by politicians looking to score easy points :(
 
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zkojq
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:31 am

This is just too good

Image
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User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1999
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:59 am

zkojq wrote:
This is just too good


Haha! Brilliant!

Hypocrisy of the Daily Mail has no bounds!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 15452
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:03 am

zkojq wrote:
This is just too good


Their outrage is very amusing, but the simple reality is that a £6 fee for the right to visit the EU for three years is peanuts.

Some of the comments are... :shock:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 6517
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:05 pm

Richard28 wrote:
wow, Hard Brexit, seriously?? everyone to their own opinion I guess.

seahawk wrote:
It would be best for the UK, as the politicians there will no longer have the EU to blame for their problems


No no no, after Brexit, whatever happens next, the same old politicians will always blame the EU for what transpires.

Leopords can't change their spots.

The EU has been an easy scapegoat up to now and will regrettably continue to be so in the future, if not more so.


At the moment I prefer a hard Brexit, as everything else will just be a continuation of the current situation. A Norwegian like solution won´t survive the next 2 elections in the UK anyway and every new UK government would try to renegotiate the agreement. This would benefit neither side.
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:23 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... ommentsDiv

Britain set to offer EU Brexit immigration deal 'very similar' to free movement
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:26 pm

In response to an FOI request, the Department for Exiting the EU said it hadn't approached a single external company to obtain ideas of how technology will help solve the Northern Irish border issue

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/stat...386989568?s=19
 
sevenair
Posts: 2238
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:18 am

Hi Chicks! Long time no speak. That's what happens when you actually have a job sadly.

Could anyone give me a quick summary as to where we are? More prophecies of doom, more crying and more triggering? Does that some it up or is there anything else I should know about?
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
sevenair
Posts: 2238
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:25 am

LTenEleven wrote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-talks-latest-eu-immigration-free-movement-offer-a8326101.html#commentsDiv

Britain set to offer EU Brexit immigration deal 'very similar' to free movement


Oh dear. The beLeavers that voted to end FOM won't be happy. Mind, never will the lefties.

Image

Ooooh, Jeremy Corbyn.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:38 am

scbriml wrote:
zkojq wrote:
This is just too good


Their outrage is very amusing, but the simple reality is that a £6 fee for the right to visit the EU for three years is peanuts.

Some of the comments are... :shock:


Yeah, quite a bit cheaper than ESTA.
Most recent planes I've been in: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, B737-600 LN-RPA, B737-700 OY-JTY, B737-800 LN-NGA, B767-300 ZK-NCI, B777-300 ZK-OKN, B787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG

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