vc10 wrote:

and believe me it wasnot the common market/EU that stopped the European Countries going to war , but rather that the countries were all broke, their industries ruined,.their populations were weary after two world wars

That has never stopped European countries from going at war with each other. You also vastly overstate the damage to the economy, ruined industries was basically a mostly German issue, for obvious reasons.

and they were all dependant on the country with the money to help them recover and that was the USA.

The money was just nice to have, but the whole marshal plan was just a touch above 100 billion in today's money. Even by that time that wasn't all that much. And the countries getting it had to pay in Keynsian free trade agreements. The French Les Trente Glorieuses for example started before the Marshall plan even was the law.

but no the EU politicians push and push some more even if a large section of their population do not want to proceed so fast

Funny that the EU reacted to Brexit with faster integration, and is fairly popular. EU citizens trust the EU consistently more than their own national parliaments and governments, and have done so for decades, and the number of Europeans seeing the EU as positive has been rising since Brexit, and is twice as high as the number of people seeing the EU as negative. Their number is down by about 1/3 since 2013. Negative views make up just 20% and about 1/3 see it neutral. The only country with a plurality, not majority, of citizens seeing the EU negative is Greece. Can't blame them.
Most politicians and governments would gladly give their first born to get numbers comparable to the EU's

So in the UK there is a large part of the population who do not like the speed at which the integration is going and and could not slow it down, so when given the opportunity they voted to leave

As you can see in the poll data given up threat, the option most akin to staying in the EU is the most popular in the UK, the option "take art 50 back" wasn't given in the poll.

It rather seems to be a fairly loud minority that doesn't like the EU, and they know they need to lie and promise paradise to get their votes.

Best regards
Thomas

I find always funny when an UK citizen says that he is against a closer integration when you consider England and its 3 tied colonies

tommy1808 wrote:

EU citizens trust the EU consistently more than their own national parliaments and governments, and have done so for decades, and the number of Europeans seeing the EU as positive has been rising since Brexit, and is twice as high as the number of people seeing the EU as negative. Their number is down by about 1/3 since 2013. Negative views make up just 20% and about 1/3 see it neutral. The only country with a plurality, not majority, of citizens seeing the EU negative is Greece. Can't blame them.

Sorry where is the source to this please?

Olddog wrote:

I find always funny when an UK citizen says that he is against a closer integration when you consider England and its 3 tied colonies

All one united country my friend, Great Britain.

You could say California has 49 tied colonies.

Richard28 wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

Already been proven by multiple media outlets this is likley to be a false claim.

No it has not been proven to be false. It is the governments (you know, the very people who are trying to do this crazy Brexit?) very own forecast (that they fought tooth and nail to try and hide from us).

Arion640 wrote:

A. Low sterling boosts exports and tourism. But more importantly we know currencies fluctuate all the time. The pound isn't the only currency in the world that can lose and gain value. I'm not quite sure how a drop in the pound contributes to this cost considering we can sell more goods at lower cost.

More crazy Brexit logic.

Its like saying that I did really well at selling my house by knocking £100k off the asking price. Of course you sell more, but that doesn't discount you are getting much less back in the transaction.

And just because things fluctuate in value means we don't lose anything? in the future it may come back, or get worse (quite possibly worse initially on no deal/WTO terms) but what happens in the future does not affect that you have lost value today.

Arion640 wrote:

B. We're not in recession and we have had lower economic growth while still inside the EU and even been in recession while inside the EU.

Who even mentioned recession?

Of course we have had recessions in the EU, we've been in it 40 years, but just because we were in it does not mean the recession was because of it.

The last recession was called the "Global Financial Crisis" and was sparked by packaging of sub-prime debt in the US initially. Nothing to do with the EU initially, who actually put in place very sensible rules and solvency tests to protect the banking sector from a repeat of this crisis.

The current drop in growth of UK GDP was a s a direct consequence of the Brexit process - the drop started at exactly the same time, we were near the top of the pack before, and now we are at the bottom in terms of growth.

The nonsense you guys create to self congratulate and try and justify this Brexit is sometimes just unbelievable.

Not crazy logic at all. The price stays same if the Americans (for example) buy more as it's cheaper when priced in USD. The value to the British Economy will still be the same, as the cost to produce hasn't changed, nor has the cost of sale. The USD dollar goes further for purchasing power, how can you not see this?

And then for recession. Your predicting economic doomsday, £100 Billion value lost to the UK economy as stated up thread etc etc, reduced Economic growth.

Yet you say we're not going to be in recession? So by that logic, you are saying everything will be fine and the UK economy will be growing. In that case we have nothing to worry about.

Arion640 wrote:

Olddog wrote:

I find always funny when an UK citizen says that he is against a closer integration when you consider England and its 3 tied colonies

All one united country my friend, Great Britain.

You could say California has 49 tied colonies.

Could be if you did not go against the will of the people in Scotland and NI. The will of the people is sovereign as long it is the english will

Arion640 wrote:

Olddog wrote:

I find always funny when an UK citizen says that he is against a closer integration when you consider England and its 3 tied colonies

All one united country my friend, Great Britain.

You could say California has 49 tied colonies.

But they would say they are Scottish, Welsh etc before British wouldn't they?

I say English before British myself and don't consider myself European. Merely a citizen of a country in the continent of Europe.

Are journalists/intellectuals in the UK saying that at the end of the day the Brexit vote had nothing to do with the EU ? It seems to me the divide between remainers and leavers is mainly about elites vs populism, economic liberalism vs need for protection, etc. And this divide also exists inside the political parties (and across western countries).

May is ultimately not going to protect UK people more, she's not talking about giving more to the poor or unemployed, lowering student fees or anything of the sort, so leavers will feel worse off regardless of what actually happens with the EU.

noviorbis77 wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

EU citizens trust the EU consistently more than their own national parliaments and governments, and have done so for decades, and the number of Europeans seeing the EU as positive has been rising since Brexit, and is twice as high as the number of people seeing the EU as negative. Their number is down by about 1/3 since 2013. Negative views make up just 20% and about 1/3 see it neutral. The only country with a plurality, not majority, of citizens seeing the EU negative is Greece. Can't blame them.

Sorry where is the source to this please?

Eurostat has all the info you ever want, including the Barometer since 1976 or so.

Best regards
Thomas

Arion640 wrote:

Not crazy logic at all. The price stays same if the Americans (for example) buy more as it's cheaper when priced in USD. The value to the British Economy will still be the same, as the cost to produce hasn't changed, nor has the cost of sale. The USD dollar goes further for purchasing power, how can you not see this?

True. As long as you ignore that resources and imported components and generally everything imported becomes more expansive, which increases inflation, which increases wages and interest rates, making investments more expensive, leading to less investments.....
Economy doesn't happen between weekend and Monday, it is a long term endevor.

Yet you say we're not going to be in recession? So by that logic, you are saying everything will be fine and the UK economy will be growing. In that case we have nothing to worry about.

I think he tried to explain compound interest to you already a couple of days ago.

Best regards
Thomas

A little fun:
'Love Island': The Contestants Attempted To Discuss Brexit And It Was Quite Something
'So does that mean we won’t have any trees?'

http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/941525412?-34216:22866

20-year-old student Georgia Steel brought the subject up during a conversation in the villa garden, to which model Hayley Hughes replied: “What’s that?”

But if that has already got you facepalming, we hate to tell you, things got a lot worse.

After Samira Mightly claimed it meant we were “won’t be part of Europe” and Georgia attempted to make some comment about trade deals, Hayley replied: “So does that mean we won’t have any trees?”

“That’s got nothing to do with it, babe. That’s weather,” Georgia told her.

Arion640 wrote:

Not crazy logic at all. The price stays same if the Americans (for example) buy more as it's cheaper when priced in USD. The value to the British Economy will still be the same, as the cost to produce hasn't changed, nor has the cost of sale. The USD dollar goes further for purchasing power, how can you not see this?

So More crazy logic, so when it is on the news that the pound has lost value against currency X, it hasn’t lost anything at all?

Great economics - worlds problems are solved!

The cost of sale does go up - especially where you have imported goods - you will have noticed the rise in inflation since Brexit, when sterling dropped in value - that is a cost that has affected everyone.

Arion640 wrote:

And then for recession. Your predicting economic doomsday, £100 Billion value lost to the UK economy as stated up thread etc etc, reduced Economic growth.

Yet you say we're not going to be in recession? So by that logic, you are saying everything will be fine and the UK economy will be growing. In that case we have nothing to worry about.

I did not say we would not go into recession, it is possible

A recession is normally classed as two successive quarters of negative growth - we are not there yet, but it is certainly a possibility - especially in the event of a hard Brexit and no deal - with WTO tariffs on most imports and exports which would have a pretty horrible effect on our economy.

Arion640 wrote:

Not crazy logic at all. The price stays same if the Americans (for example) buy more as it's cheaper when priced in USD. The value to the British Economy will still be the same, as the cost to produce hasn't changed, nor has the cost of sale. The USD dollar goes further for purchasing power, how can you not see this?

If devalueation is so good, then why stop at 15-20%? How close to zero value of the pound would be just perfect?

With your logic you should seek a career in politics. You should have a bright future as minister of economics, in Zimbabwe for example.

prebennorholm wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

Not crazy logic at all. The price stays same if the Americans (for example) buy more as it's cheaper when priced in USD. The value to the British Economy will still be the same, as the cost to produce hasn't changed, nor has the cost of sale. The USD dollar goes further for purchasing power, how can you not see this?

If devalueation is so good, then why stop at 15-20%? How close to zero value of the pound would be just perfect?

With your logic you should seek a career in politics. You should have a bright future as minister of economics, in Zimbabwe for example.

Ha, that's not what I'm saying. Because we then would really be in trouble. Where it is now is about fine for export led growth.

With your logic then, Why not have the pound at 50% more than what it was the days before the referendum, you guys seem to loath a very strong pound.

prebennorholm wrote:

With your logic you should seek a career in politics. You should have a bright future as minister of economics, in Zimbabwe for example.

Haha! Brilliant!

Richard28 wrote:

prebennorholm wrote:

With your logic you should seek a career in politics. You should have a bright future as minister of economics, in Zimbabwe for example.

Haha! Brilliant!

To be fair, it's probably a well paid job for doing very little.

tommy1808 wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

EU citizens trust the EU consistently more than their own national parliaments and governments, and have done so for decades, and the number of Europeans seeing the EU as positive has been rising since Brexit, and is twice as high as the number of people seeing the EU as negative. Their number is down by about 1/3 since 2013. Negative views make up just 20% and about 1/3 see it neutral. The only country with a plurality, not majority, of citizens seeing the EU negative is Greece. Can't blame them.

Sorry where is the source to this please?

Eurostat has all the info you ever want, including the Barometer since 1976 or so.

Best regards
Thomas

Is that an objective source though?

The source is totally objective, but as usual; the lies can come with the way one use it as for all stats.

Eurostats and objective when it comes to matters of the EU, please.

seahawk wrote:

Eurostats and objective when it comes to matters of the EU, please.

Almost as funny as EU funded organisations shouting about how great the EU is.

Arion640 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Eurostats and objective when it comes to matters of the EU, please.

Almost as funny as EU funded organisations shouting about how great the EU is.

Eurostat only collects data supplied in accordance with the EU regulations surrounding statistical data collection. It doesn't interpret data, that's the job of those using the data. It's loathed by many EU members as it requires them to be transparant. Thus if you say that the data supplied by Eurostat is fake, than you're basically saying that the suppliers of the data (the individual countries) do not do their work and should be sued. Or you don't have a clue on how statistical data collection works.

BTW what would you accept as a reliable source? The Daily Mail?

Resignation of Dr Phillip Lee MP form the government today, ahead of the Brexit votes.

A powerful resignation statement is on his web site

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorize ... statement/

Patriot.

Richard28 wrote:

Resignation of Dr Phillip Lee MP form the government today, ahead of the Brexit votes.

A powerful resignation statement is on his web site

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorize ... statement/

Patriot.

Good for him. He did the right thing.

Richard28 wrote:

Resignation of Dr Phillip Lee MP form the government today, ahead of the Brexit votes.

A powerful resignation statement is on his web site

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorize ... statement/

Patriot.

It's hilarious seeing the tabloid front pages today, telling MPs to follow the "will of the people". If my MP is to represent the will of his constituency, he should vote against the Brexit bill.

Same for my MP (one of the labour rebels) - he got so many threats from people for "not respecting the will of the people", many from outside the city when his constituency voted for remain (the only one in the area to do so)

Of course if the MPs were to reflect the will of the people accurately 48% would be against Brexit and 52% for - but it seems that for some less then 100% win for the government is treasonous.

Also as I understand it none of the lord's amendments are for cancelling Brexit, the imfamous customs union one is merely an instruction to investigate a customs union with the EU (not the single market) and report back.

scbriml wrote:

Richard28 wrote:

Resignation of Dr Phillip Lee MP form the government today, ahead of the Brexit votes.

A powerful resignation statement is on his web site

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorize ... statement/

Patriot.

It's hilarious seeing the tabloid front pages today, telling MPs to follow the "will of the people". If my MP is to represent the will of his constituency, he should vote against the Brexit bill.

Would you maintan the same attitude that an MP should vote for the brexit bill if that MP's constituency voted leave?

Arion640 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Richard28 wrote:

Resignation of Dr Phillip Lee MP form the government today, ahead of the Brexit votes.

A powerful resignation statement is on his web site

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorize ... statement/

Patriot.

It's hilarious seeing the tabloid front pages today, telling MPs to follow the "will of the people". If my MP is to represent the will of his constituency, he should vote against the Brexit bill.

Would you maintan the same attitude that an MP should vote for the brexit bill if that MP's constituency voted leave?

We live in a representative democracy and not a direct democracy, so we give our MP's the right to make the decisions they consider to be the best for their constituents.

In essence these decisions should not be solely influenced by front page tabloid newspapers or by national referendum results, even though those vested interests think they should be.

In the end it comes back to the same old argument, what is "the will of the people"? we know that in 2016 it was to leave the EU and then in 2017 the conservatives lost a majority in the house of commons based on their strategy. But that is all we know.

None of the Lords amendments today and tomorrow are demonstrably against the "will of the people".

FabDiva wrote:

Also as I understand it none of the lord's amendments are for cancelling Brexit, the imfamous customs union one is merely an instruction to investigate a customs union with the EU (not the single market) and report back.

That is correct.

There are separate amendments on the Customs Union (No.1) and the EEA/Single Market (No. 110A)

a recap of the amendments:

Arion640 wrote:

Would you maintan the same attitude that an MP should vote for the brexit bill if that MP's constituency voted leave?

Of course! If that MP is to represent the will of the people who elected him, then yes. Are you expecting me to say something different?

As some of the previous posters have mentioned, Mr.Trump is going to give the Britain a great trade deal. He has been in a very giving mood lately.

LockheedBBD wrote:

As some of the previous posters have mentioned, Mr.Trump is going to give the Britain a great trade deal. He has been in a very giving mood lately.

Only to dictators, allies get slapped with tariffs.

Best regards
Thomas

scbriml wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

Would you maintan the same attitude that an MP should vote for the brexit bill if that MP's constituency voted leave?

Of course! If that MP is to represent the will of the people who elected him, then yes. Are you expecting me to say something different?

Thanks, i'm glad you agree.

The government wins.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44456035

Arion640 wrote:

The government wins.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44456035

... after a late concession.


Quote from your link: "The decision to seek a compromise marked an important victory for the soft Brexit/Remainer/"realist" Tory rebels, who have been promised an amendment giving them most of what they want."

MP's have accepted the Northern Ireland amendment which prevents the establishment of new border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after Brexit, and preserves North-South cooperation.

This was accepted without a vote.

This is very interesting as it potentially now restricts room for manouvre in relation to customs union/agreement/partnership (or whatever else they choose to call it this week) in Ireland, and therefore potentially for the UK too.

Richard28 wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

The government wins.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44456035

... after a late concession.


Quote from your link: "The decision to seek a compromise marked an important victory for the soft Brexit/Remainer/"realist" Tory rebels, who have been promised an amendment giving them most of what they want."

I’m aware of this. But as you probably know from watching Government/Politics affairs. There’s saying one thing and doing another.

Arion640 wrote:

I’m aware of this. But as you probably know from watching Government/Politics affairs. There’s saying one thing and doing another.

This is true... more fireworks can be expected if the promise to the rebels isn't delivered or what was expected, and possibly from ERG if it is delivered..!

as always... rocky roads ahead.....

Richard28 wrote:

MP's have accepted the Northern Ireland amendment which prevents the establishment of new border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after Brexit, and preserves North-South cooperation.

Last I checked, Ireland was in the EU and the UK by itself cannot establish no border option.
It is the same with a lot of the proposed initiatives being talked about, if they have to be decided by the EU then they should all be worded as "We would like the EU to consider..."
to head off the confusion that the MP's are somehow negotiating with the EU and what they pass hold sway on the continent.

The folly of TM selecting an adversarial cabinet has been coming home to roost for the past two years, it has also shown that there are so many ways for the opposing views to be heard that a non-functional cabinet was a bad idea.

BIzarre news from UK Wetherspoons pub chain:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465657

The pub chain will be transitioning away from EU products in advance of Brexit.

The owner is very much anti-EU, but all the same, this seems a very bitter thing to do, especially when the EU has such amazing products and also when we do not know what trading arrangements will be post Brexit/transition.

Can you imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and EU producers did the same for UK produce? especially crucial when the UK currently exports about 68% of food and drink to the EU currently (and even more if you then also include countries with EU trade deals, such as Canada, Japan, South Korea, and soon New Zealand and Australia).

Quite a hostile action form a big UK company I think, which in my mind at least makes me appreciate the trade deals with the EU and beyond that we currently have.

Richard28 wrote:

BIzarre news from UK Wetherspoons pub chain:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465657

The pub chain will be transitioning away from EU products in advance of Brexit.

The owner is very much anti-EU, but all the same, this seems a very bitter thing to do, especially when the EU has such amazing products and also when we do not know what trading arrangements will be post Brexit/transition.

Can you imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and EU producers did the same for UK produce? especially crucial when the UK currently exports about 68% of food and drink to the EU currently (and even more if you then also include countries with EU trade deals, such as Canada, Japan, South Korea, and soon New Zealand and Australia).

Quite a hostile action form a big UK company I think, which in my mind at least makes me appreciate the trade deals with the EU and beyond that we currently have.

Weatherspoons are a company, not a government and free to do what they want. Glad to see they will selling more British products, they are setting an example to all companies.

Richard28 wrote:

BIzarre news from UK Wetherspoons pub chain:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465657

The pub chain will be transitioning away from EU products in advance of Brexit.

The owner is very much anti-EU, but all the same, this seems a very bitter thing to do, especially when the EU has such amazing products and also when we do not know what trading arrangements will be post Brexit/transition.

It's the British version of Freedom Fries.

It's probably what your regular Wetherspoon patron looks for so it even may make business sense.

Arion640 wrote:

Weatherspoons are a company, not a government and free to do what they want..

I totally agree.

The action is however putting the CEO's own prejudices potentially ahead of those of his customers.

Whilst it's good to support local produce, to have an effective blanket ban on all EU produce, whilst still importing form elsewhere (e.g. Australia) speaks volumes, and is frankly a little absurd.

JJJ wrote:

It's the British version of Freedom Fries.

nailed it.

JJJ wrote:

It's the British version of Freedom Fries.

It is as hilarious that what the US did, knowing "french" fries come from Belgium

You have a strange obsession with that Irish company ....

sevenair wrote:

More pivoting away

Quote from O'Leary:

“However, don’t confuse this great news as some form of vote of confidence into the future of UK aviation. Brexit remains an issue but we don’t know. We have plans to do with ownership and control issues, we have a mobile asset with our fleet but we shall we what happens.”

Richard28 wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

Weatherspoons are a company, not a government and free to do what they want..

I totally agree.

The action is however putting the CEO's own prejudices potentially ahead of those of his customers.

Whilst it's good to support local produce, to have an effective blanket ban on all EU produce, whilst still importing form elsewhere (e.g. Australia) speaks volumes, and is frankly a little absurd.

JJJ wrote:

It's the British version of Freedom Fries.

nailed it.

I see your point 100%.

But I will welcome this move, which I would of done regardless if brexit was taking place or not.

Lots of amendments defeated in the commons tonight.

Arion640 wrote:

Lots of amendments defeated in the commons tonight.

Indeed, the first round was defeated.... but of course these amendments are quite likely to be passed back by the Lords to be voted on again.

In the meantime amendments on the concessions must be tabled today.... expect fireworks from the side of the Tory party that doesn't get its way.

It would appear the tightrope that May has been walking may be coming to an end?

Labour also in a pickle... it is going to be an interesting summer....

This is entertaining.

Mr Rees-Mogg's co-owned investment firm Somerset Investment Capital have launched a new investment vehicle in Dublin and are warning of the potential risk of a Hard Brexit.

"Do as I say, not as I Do"

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/fin ... -1.3529280