sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:52 pm

Yes quite like many people who skip with glee and jump for joy at the news of job losses and bad news. When you single out an individual then it very much is a case of targetted abuse my friend.

Are we only allowed to post negative news when it comes to Brexit? It would seem so as anything positive is met with snide comments and remarks about how we are dumb, uninformed and don’t know what we are talking about.

It's a huge thing with many costs and many benefits with many challenges ahead. If trying to bring some balance to an anti Brexit thread on an anti Brexit forum likely hosted by anti Brexit company and mods who are anti Brexit I don't think it proves that I'm in any way out of touch with reality for trying to inject a little balance. Is that wrong or would you like this to be an echo chamber for your own views and only welcome people with the same views as you?

All UK residents have it in their best interests to make it work. We won’t make t work by celebrating people losing their jobs, losing value on their homes and hitting hardship.

Whilst I may joke about the absurd claims that project fear promises us I don’t see how that’s any worse than the remain side who post derogatory and insulting things about leavers and the desperate measures they’ll take to derail the whole thing. The Russian hackers line didn’t work. The Cambridge Analytica thing didn’t work. People need to accept that unfortunately the vote didn’t go their way but actively willing it to fail is not in anyone’s best interests. I actually cringe when I see fairly mainstream and well known people celebrate the ‘failires’ of brexit and their online followers clapping along happy that families are without a bread winner and people are worrying about making ends meet. Social media kudos for the price of a few hundred families struggling to feed the kids.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 15698
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:53 pm

sevenair wrote:
Many thanks to the mods for removing the targeted abuse directed toward me for simply being differently opinionated.


Targeted abuse? :rotfl:

sevenair wrote:
If remoaners are worried about economic success then they should be happy about this. Instead they ignore and belittle it and await news of job losses then jump up and down with glee.

Sad people. We are leaving the EU no matter how much people whinge. Surely it's in our best interests to make a success of it? It's telling that you would all like to see people out of a job and out on the streets just so that you could say 'I told you so'.


Pot, kettle, black. That's your "targeted abuse" of anyone who dares to say they would have rather stayed in the EU. You trumpet any piece of remotely good news and ignore any bad news.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Many thanks to the mods for removing the targeted abuse directed toward me for simply being differently opinionated.


Targeted abuse? :rotfl:

sevenair wrote:
If remoaners are worried about economic success then they should be happy about this. Instead they ignore and belittle it and await news of job losses then jump up and down with glee.

Sad people. We are leaving the EU no matter how much people whinge. Surely it's in our best interests to make a success of it? It's telling that you would all like to see people out of a job and out on the streets just so that you could say 'I told you so'.


Pot, kettle, black. That's your "targeted abuse" of anyone who dares to say they would have rather stayed in the EU. You trumpet any piece of remotely good news and ignore any bad news.


Yes quite like many people who skip with glee and jump for joy at the news of job losses and bad news. When you single out an individual then it very much is a case of targetted abuse my friend.

Are we only allowed to post negative news when it comes to Brexit? It would seem so as anything positive is met with snide comments and remarks about how we are dumb, uninformed and don’t know what we are talking about.

It's a huge thing with many costs and many benefits with many challenges ahead. If trying to bring some balance to an anti Brexit thread on an anti Brexit forum likely hosted by anti Brexit company and mods who are anti Brexit I don't think it proves that I'm in any way out of touch with reality for trying to inject a little balance. Is that wrong or would you like this to be an echo chamber for your own views and only welcome people with the same views as you?

All UK residents (both current and future residents from the EU and beyond) have it in their best interests to make it work. We won’t make t work by celebrating people losing their jobs, losing value on their homes and hitting hardship.

Whilst I may joke about the absurd claims that project fear promises us I don’t see how that’s any worse than the remain side who post derogatory and insulting things about leavers and the desperate measures they’ll take to derail the whole thing. The Russian hackers line didn’t work. The Cambridge Analytica thing didn’t work. People need to accept that we are leaving the EU and unfortunately the vote didn’t go their way but actively willing it to fail is not in anyone’s best interests. I actually cringe when I see fairly mainstream and well known people celebrate the ‘failires’ of brexit and their online followers clapping along happy that families are without a bread winner and people are worrying about making ends meet. Social media kudos for the price of a few hundred families struggling to feed the kids.

I get it. I really get it. You’re upset and I’m sorry about that but I’m not sorry that we are leaving. Can’t we all just get along and hope that we all get a little bit of what we want when it comes to brexit and that there will be compromises on all sides on the UK side and on the EU and most importantly that we Brexiteers need to understand that not all of the things that we want is achievable. Again that’s tough luck too. We won’t get everything we want just as remainers won’t get everything they want but in reality we all need to come together to try and make it work out for everyone here, for the EU and for our hopeful new trading partners who we will be working with more closely in future.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:33 pm

sevenair wrote:
Are we only allowed to post negative news when it comes to Brexit? It would seem so as anything positive is met with snide comments and remarks about how we are dumb, uninformed and don’t know what we are talking about.


AFAIK you're the only one actively posting news with joy. Nobody posted the news on Galileo, which one can consider bad news.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:50 pm

sevenair wrote:
We won’t get everything we want just as remainers won’t get everything they want but in reality we all need to come together to try and make it work out for everyone here, for the EU and for our hopeful new trading partners who we will be working with more closely in future.


I 100% agree with this statement, but I don't see some of the (very vocal) Leave campaign doing its best to come together with the "we're glad I'm divorcing from you, and I want this, that, and that" viewpoint. The feeling of superiority some of the Leave Campaign have isn't actually doing the UK any good. It takes two to tango, but my impression is that some people from the UK think they can do it alone.... If it weren't for the consequences for the EU27 we would have a hard Brexit from March next year.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:04 pm

LJ wrote:
sevenair wrote:
We won’t get everything we want just as remainers won’t get everything they want but in reality we all need to come together to try and make it work out for everyone here, for the EU and for our hopeful new trading partners who we will be working with more closely in future.


I 100% agree with this statement, but I don't see some of the (very vocal) Leave campaign doing its best to come together with the "we're glad I'm divorcing from you, and I want this, that, and that" viewpoint. The feeling of superiority some of the Leave Campaign have isn't actually doing the UK any good. It takes two to tango, but my impression is that some people from the UK think they can do it alone.... If it weren't for the consequences for the EU27 we would have a hard Brexit from March next year.


Swings and roundabouts. There's EU citizens on here which have the 'go and get lost' attitude. That attitude n both sides is not helpful at all. In reality a close working relationship would benefit the UK but will also benefit rEU also. I don't doubt that we can do it alone but in reality a progressive relationship with our closest friends and allies would be mutually beneficial for us all.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
sevenair
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:09 pm

LJ wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Are we only allowed to post negative news when it comes to Brexit? It would seem so as anything positive is met with snide comments and remarks about how we are dumb, uninformed and don’t know what we are talking about.


AFAIK you're the only one actively posting news with joy. Nobody posted the news on Galileo, which one can consider bad news.


Take a look back and you'll see the gleeful posts when it comes to GDP figures or the faux concern over fishermen in the UK who remainers now claim are being shafted due to the transitional deal. Although quite where these people were over the last four decades when the EU's CFP ruined the lives of many fishermen is a mystery to me.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:18 pm

sevenair wrote:
LJ wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Are we only allowed to post negative news when it comes to Brexit? It would seem so as anything positive is met with snide comments and remarks about how we are dumb, uninformed and don’t know what we are talking about.


AFAIK you're the only one actively posting news with joy. Nobody posted the news on Galileo, which one can consider bad news.


Take a look back and you'll see the gleeful posts when it comes to GDP figures or the faux concern over fishermen in the UK who remainers now claim are being shafted due to the transitional deal. Although quite where these people were over the last four decades when the EU's CFP ruined the lives of many fishermen is a mystery to me.


Those people were shafted because their ship owners who held the fishing rights sold them to foreign companies.

EU or UK don't make a difference if the very British ship owners hadn't sold their quota to Dutch, Spanish or Icelandic multinational.

It's not glee, it's a smirky you don't really know how these things work do you? For which you have provided ample evidence of.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1583
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:32 pm

sevenair wrote:
scbriml wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Many thanks to the mods for removing the targeted abuse directed toward me for simply being differently opinionated.


Targeted abuse? :rotfl:

sevenair wrote:
If remoaners are worried about economic success then they should be happy about this. Instead they ignore and belittle it and await news of job losses then jump up and down with glee.

Sad people. We are leaving the EU no matter how much people whinge. Surely it's in our best interests to make a success of it? It's telling that you would all like to see people out of a job and out on the streets just so that you could say 'I told you so'.


Pot, kettle, black. That's your "targeted abuse" of anyone who dares to say they would have rather stayed in the EU. You trumpet any piece of remotely good news and ignore any bad news.


Yes quite like many people who skip with glee and jump for joy at the news of job losses and bad news. When you single out an individual then it very much is a case of targetted abuse my friend.

Are we only allowed to post negative news when it comes to Brexit? It would seem so as anything positive is met with snide comments and remarks about how we are dumb, uninformed and don’t know what we are talking about.

It's a huge thing with many costs and many benefits with many challenges ahead. If trying to bring some balance to an anti Brexit thread on an anti Brexit forum likely hosted by anti Brexit company and mods who are anti Brexit I don't think it proves that I'm in any way out of touch with reality for trying to inject a little balance. Is that wrong or would you like this to be an echo chamber for your own views and only welcome people with the same views as you?

All UK residents (both current and future residents from the EU and beyond) have it in their best interests to make it work. We won’t make t work by celebrating people losing their jobs, losing value on their homes and hitting hardship.

Whilst I may joke about the absurd claims that project fear promises us I don’t see how that’s any worse than the remain side who post derogatory and insulting things about leavers and the desperate measures they’ll take to derail the whole thing. The Russian hackers line didn’t work. The Cambridge Analytica thing didn’t work. People need to accept that we are leaving the EU and unfortunately the vote didn’t go their way but actively willing it to fail is not in anyone’s best interests. I actually cringe when I see fairly mainstream and well known people celebrate the ‘failires’ of brexit and their online followers clapping along happy that families are without a bread winner and people are worrying about making ends meet. Social media kudos for the price of a few hundred families struggling to feed the kids.

I get it. I really get it. You’re upset and I’m sorry about that but I’m not sorry that we are leaving. Can’t we all just get along and hope that we all get a little bit of what we want when it comes to brexit and that there will be compromises on all sides on the UK side and on the EU and most importantly that we Brexiteers need to understand that not all of the things that we want is achievable. Again that’s tough luck too. We won’t get everything we want just as remainers won’t get everything they want but in reality we all need to come together to try and make it work out for everyone here, for the EU and for our hopeful new trading partners who we will be working with more closely in future.


For the first time, I agree with (some of) what you say. Compromise is going to be required on all sides. The government seems to be already compromising (or accepting reality?)

What I can't agree with is the view that there is pleasure to be had on any side of the argument to see people suffer hardship and lose their jobs. The point here is that remainers think Brexit will cause an unnecessary economic decline likely to hit hardest the most disadvantaged areas. Can't speak for everyone of course but I would love to be proved wrong on this. Based on how I've interpreted the information I have seen, I believe the chances of this are not good.

I'm not talking down my country. I'm not someone who hates the UK. I don't hate Brexiteers. I am keen for this decision to leave the EU to be examined closely, discussed at every stage and passed through our Parliament in the proper way. I've been in touch with my MP several times and I'll continue to do so to apply what democratic pressure I can to ensure there is proper scrutiny which I believe is in all of our interests and not just the right of the Tory party and the non-dom editors of certain national papers.

BTW, are you not worried about the reports of how money was spent in the Leave campaign? (I thought I'd heard mention on the radio about something similar on Remain side but cannot find it). Those rules are to ensure transparency in our elections. Regardless of the side that is under investigation, do you feel concern that these rules and safeguards may have been broken and potentially a criminal act committed?

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:19 am

No I'm not worried at all about how money way spent. Even if it is proven to be wrong I don't see why I should be concerned when the remain side had a £9,000,000 government leaflet campaign, a tour of the country by Cameron telling us to remain, the BBC telling us to remain, practically every entertainer in the land telling us to remain and pushing the 'only a racist would vote for brexit' line, companies coming on record and trying to scare their employees into remaining, Ryanair offering to fly voters home for free to vote to remain and continually warning that flights will end, Obama meddling in, the project fear that was rammed down our throats and that's before we get started on the actual EU itself and the meddling it attempted and as you mention questionable practices on the remain side too.

So no, I'm not worried that despite all of these things in favour of remaining that a few grands worth of funds were sent to another pro leave team. The odds were stacked well against leave. Leave still won.

If the situation were reversed and remain won and it came to light that funds may have been spent inappropriately do you think for one moment they'd entertain the idea of holding the referendum again? If it were found that Russians spent $100 on Facebook ads to get us to vote remain, so you think we'd have a second referendum if the vote were to leave? Absolutely not. Given the huge amount of pro remain bias in society, the arts, business, the news and social media remain should have absolutely slaughtered leave and remain should have won with a HUGE margin. As it stands leave won by a margin measurable in millions. I'd say we won it fair and square but the whole thing wasn't fair and square given the pro remain bias that dominated the whole thing. Could it not be that the people simply wanted to leave?

If what you say about remainers is true and they're concerned that Brexit will be a disaster then surely they would welcome any positive news or news that shows that actually things might not be as bad as predicted? Instead it's the Brexit tombola of doom game whereby they'll use the 'yes but......it'll be a disaster anyway' and attempt to find evidence that proves them personally right. Scratch the surface and you'll find most remainers don't care about the country. They're bothered about how they will be impacted personally (you know the offensive 'who will make my latte' or 'who will pick our fruit' arguement) and not the greater success of the country. Either that or they simply want to be proved right and thus focus on the negatives just as I focus on the positives. The difference being I'm shouted down and have insult hurled at me for doing the very same thing that they themselves do.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:45 am

sevenair wrote:
Either that or they simply want to be proved right and thus focus on the negatives just as I focus on the positives. The difference being I'm shouted down and have insult hurled at me for doing the very same thing that they themselves do.


The way I perceive your posts sevenair is that they are one sided (just as you claim others to be) and mostly make assumptions on remainer opinions and perceive our reactions to what you have written before anyone has even had the chance to respond.

A forum such as this is not a place to simply post a piece of news then run away - this is a discussion forum and as such people should be able to dissect and analyse what has been written.

That is not being negative, it is being investigative - and it is frustrating when such analysis is then not considered by what is written but rather by who has written it.

Much of what you write is a snapshot of a single news story you have found on a single day. Even if it is good news (and yes remainers do like good news) often the devil is in the detail or there are future ramifications which may not have not been considered and should be in order to understand the news in the context of Brexit and what may happen in the future.

To hear the other side of the debate is not being "shouted down", far from it - it is starting a debate where both sides should contribute.

Less presumptions and more respectful posts would not hinder your cause.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:54 am

If you look I've admitted that mine are one sided just as the rest of the forum who are anti Brexit also post one sided news stories or completely ignore the ones that don't suit their narrative. If you're going to call me out for this then you need to do it to the rest too. If it's not ok for me to only post positive news then it should also not be ok when people only post negative news.

Respect it a two way stream in my view. A few things sent my way:

The committed magats and brexiteers don't represent an opposing viewpoint but rather an illness predicated entirely on victimhood, fear and an inability to compete in a diverse society.


And


You "conservatives" have the most pathetic victim complexes known to man. Sad!

Don't care for Twitter? Create your own outlets.


And

And no one misses your conspiratorial whiney bs.


And of course, us gays can only think what the political left tell us to think. If we don't then we're obviously wannabe Milo's.

And I'm sure they love having you around, Milo.


And if I so much as dare to post anything pro Brexit on Twitter (which I barely bother with now) I'm bombarded by the #FBPE movement. It seems there's no room for opposing views these days. You follow the flock or you're the black sheep of the familiy.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:23 am

Your narrative is wrong. Most Europeans are not anti-brexit but think that is incredibly stupid.....
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:40 am

I rarely mention what my fellow Europeans say on Brexit but there are some fellow Europeans with the attitude of get on with it and I hope it all goes badly for you.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:14 pm

sevenair wrote:
I rarely mention what my fellow Europeans say on Brexit but there are some fellow Europeans with the attitude of get on with it and I hope it all goes badly for you.


I think most Europeans indeed have grown an attitude of 'Oh, will you FINALLY get on with it since all of this was so important to you?'

It's clear to all the UK government massively overplayed its hand from the start, based on a wrong perception of exceptionalism:
first by calling a Brexit referendum ill prepared,
then by loosing it,
then by stalling to actually call article 50 for over 9 months (!),
then by calling snap elections,
then by loosing those elections,
then by basically wasting more than half the transition period foreseen by article 50 due to internal fighting,
then by begging for a (second) transition period and
soon by begging to extend the (second) transition period even further for sure!
For a country not wanting to be part of the EU, the UK is actually asking a lot of time and effort of that EU, wouldn't you agree?

Nobody in Europe cares that much about the UK that they are going to give it want it seems to want (and what it needs for Brexit to work well), so ultimately it's up to the UK to decide whether or not it wants to take the hit and face the full consequence of its decision. Nobody else in Europe can, but nobody will care much either: it seems the latter comes as a surprise to many in the UK, as politicians seem to have genuinely expected the EU to offer something much better than what it has always said from the start was only possibly within the red lines set by the UK government (and them alone).

I see sevenair is now talking about the need for a domestic compromise to move forward: I can only hope that is going to come indeed, because the UK is in urgent need for that in order to provide clarity and a final settlement acceptable to (as good as) everybody in Britain, however, such compromise is going to be quite close to the Norwegian outcome (or any variation of it). The question with that is: is such an outcome going to be acceptable to most British people, given the whole thing started off with the ill founded idea of British exceptionalism being sold to them by their politicians?
 
sevenair
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:01 pm

Some good points. But the UK government, the ‘opposition’, Scottish and Welsh nationalists were all dead against Brexit so I don’t recognise the pro leave government you mention. Even Call me Dave was a remainer. He offered the referendum to stop voters going to UKIP. True to his word he did offer the in/our referendum but project fear was largely spun from the government down. I don’t think the government overplayed anything. They were safe in the knowledge that we’d vote remain and didn’t even have a plan of leave won. They thought that a few prophecies of doom from Gorgeous George and flying in Obama would do it. So did the remain side. Instead of promoting the EU and it’s benefits it simply parroted the government and its project fear. They didn’t even try. So convinced was I that remain had won I didn’t even stay up to watch it all unravel. To say I was shocked when I woke up is an understatement.

One snap election was called. Just a few hundred votes short of winning a majority and the Tories are still in power and the only pro remain party was destroyed in the previous election as were the Scottish nationists who were trying to use Brexit as another excuse for indyref2. May won more votes than Blair did in his landslide election in 1997. She certainly didn’t ‘lose’.

I find it strange that anyone thinks untangling the UK from the EU will take two years and that they shouldn’t be given a minute more and are criticising the government for waiting to invoke A50. I wasn’t party to the exact content of the discussions but I doubt anyone was begging for anything. Rather that both sides sa down and figures out that actually a transitional period is mutually beneficicial for all. It’s a massive decision so let’s take time and make it work for the best.

As for what your average European thinks about Brexit - I couldn’t care less even if it was physically possible about what they think. The ones living here and looking to come here then absolutely I care but I don’t lose any sleep over the fact that Brexit isn’t front page news in Germany or Italy. It’s barely front page news here unless you’re an Express or Guardian reader.

If you recall the guy who lead us into Brexit did a runner on the day of the vote. We then had weeks of backstabbing and infighting and eventually remainer May was made PM. She has to act in the best interestwda of the UK which is why she delayed A50 partly because it was the right thing and partly because we had to wait for the triggering of A50 to go through parliament who overwhelmingly voted to involve A50 jist like they overwhelmingly voted in favour of giving the UK an in/out referendum on EU membership.

It was Corbyn and his fellow Brextremist and lifelong Eurosceptic Nigel Farage who wanted to invoke A50 the day after the vote. Not really an option though was it when we didn’t have a functioning government to deliver that. Not only would A50 the day after the vote have been stupid , the mechanism of delivering Brexit simply wasn’t there. If people are upset that A50 wasn’t invoked sooner then Direct got complaint to your local MEP and ask for them to try and get A50 changed to ensure that a strict timeline is included following any such future referenda. Clue - they won’t be able to but that’s a whole new discussion!

A Norwegian Plus model would be hard to sell for many. My preference (as are the preferences of my fellow despicable leavers) would be to be out of the EU, ECJ, CAP and CFP but with a free trade agreement between the UK/EU and with close cooperation europol, euro arrest warrant, ESA and even EASA. Before you come back with the ‘it took Canada 7 years’ mantra remember the UK is an EU member. Canada wasn’t. Nobody has a better starting point than we are and nobody is better placed to negotiate a FTA than we are as all products and services meet EU standards already. Selling products that meet EU standards is not the same as being in the EU or EEC.

I know it’s trendy to imply that the UK is worthless and pathetic but in reality we have a lot going for us. For starters intel on terrorists. We have a world class intelligence arm with lots and lots of data and I want us to keep sharing that data and intel to keep all Europeans safe (remember we will still be Europeans too). I want medical research to continue and cooperation in sciences and technology. We have achieved great things together in the past and want to continue. We don’t need to be in the EU to create the next Eurorunnel or Concord(e) but we do need close working relationships in order to do so. I also want preferential treatment in terms of work visas and entry for EU nations. If we do end up with a points system then EU members should start with lots.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:43 pm

sevenair wrote:
My preference (as are the preferences of my fellow despicable leavers) would be to be out of the EU, ECJ, CAP and CFP but with a free trade agreement between the UK/EU and with close cooperation europol, euro arrest warrant, ESA and even EASA. Before you come back with the ‘it took Canada 7 years’ mantra remember the UK is an EU member. Canada wasn’t. Nobody has a better starting point than we are and nobody is better placed to negotiate a FTA than we are as all products and services meet EU standards already. Selling products that meet EU standards is not the same as being in the EU or EEC.


I think it's probably a pretty accurate picture of what a vast majority of Brits would truly like to see the relationship of their country with Europe to be all about; most of those voting leave as well as many of those voting remain. However, as the chief EU negotiator told many many many times: 'IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE'.
The EU is never going to offer the UK such a deal: it has said so from day one and it has maintained that line ever since with no change of policy in sight.
Brexiteers have long maintained their illusion that the UK is so special that it will force the EU into it regardless, but it should now be clear that it isn't: this misplaced exceptionalism really is something uniquely present in the minds of the Brexiteers still and as long as that isn't dropped from their thinking, no realistic compromise is ever going to be tabled by them and the UK is thus going to be locked into endless negotiations with the EU and continued demands to the EU to extend the much needed transition period basically forever. Hence my remark that some realism is urgently injected into the British political debate on what is possible.

What should be even more worrying in this context is the inherent legal inconsistency in what they're asking for.
You can not logically be willing to participate in a whole range of EU institutions (see them as government departments really) like Europol, ESA, EASA, EMA, ECHA, Galileo, Eurocontrol, Erasmus etc etc etc without also accepting some sort of external jurisdiction in case of conflicts, at least in those domains.
You can not honestly be willing to participate in a game, if you do not want to also accept the referee, it's as simple as that really.

Personally I've never understood the obsession with the ECJ in the first place.
The ECJ is just a court, ruling on matters related to the EU treaty just like any other FTA has an arbitration panel too: the ECJ is located in Luxembourg.
I may be wrong, but I have a strong feeling a whole lot of people think the ECJ is the same as the ECHR which rules on human right issues and is based in Strasburg, a city which accidentally happens to also be a seat of the EU parliament, hence their confusion.
The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU at all and the UK will remain subject to its ruling post Brexit too.

Finally, just some food for thought:
if the UK ends up participating in EU institutions like it now wishes, it obviously is going to be asked to pay for them too, just like Norway of Switzerland do.
Depending on just how many of those institutions it opts in to, It's not beyond the realm of possibilities that it actually ends up paying MORE post Brexit for participation in all those EU institutions than today, since obviously the rebate is no longer part of the deal, while the number of agencies is quite long:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agencies_ ... pean_Union
And if the UK doesn't opt in, it need to recreate and run these agencies itself if it wants to maintain standards, so that's coming at a huge cost too.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:00 pm

I am not opposed to paying something. Who can say how much we will have to pay but even without the rebate I imagine the savings will be huge as paying for access to maintain a working relationship with certain institutions (which is mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU) could be a price worth paying for. You can indeed be a non EU member and being part of an EU entity and I have no problem with with legal oversight specific to and limited to said projects and agencies. Having limited ECJ jurisdiction on the aspects that concern the EU I have no problem with whatsoever. The CAA has provided a lot of the technical expertise on the EASA project and surely has projects in the pipeline so it would be mutually beneficial to keep this relationship going. If that carries a cost then so be it. There has been much outrage by some brexiteers and much sniggering on the remain side that the ECJ may have oversight until 2021. So what? It's a few years compared to the entire future.

Following Brexit there will be cases where cooperation will simply be required. Take Shanwick for example. One half being in the EU and one half being out once we have left. Cooperation will have to continue in some capacity for this and please don't give me the 'Shannon can just do it all, we don't need you' as cooperation already occurs between Shanwick and Gander. So a British Irish EU institution currently coordinates with a Canadian entity so I simply don't buy the notion that we will be cut off and won't be able to work with anyone else. As Eurocontrol is not an EU entity there's nothing to say the current set up can or cannot continue.

The EU has said a lot. Verhofstadt has said a lot. We've been on the receiving end of many grave threats from their side. We are continually told that the UK has zero to offer and the EU don't care so who's to say what they will and will not give us. I personally think it's too early to simply right off a FTA from day one. But let's be honest how many people do we know where married couples split and tell us they'll always be best friends and want an amicable divorce whereas in reality six months later they want each other dead and are squabbling over who keeps the can opener from the kitchen? That's not what I want in Brexit talks. We aren't going to agree to everything and compromises on all sides will be required. It's a mammoth task though and I appreciate that not every camp is going to get what they want.

I do fully support May's stance of no deal being better than a bad deal and any attempt to rerun the referendum must be stopped as just a vote on the final deal. If the EU know that there's a chance of a vote on the deal they'll automatically give us a bad deal. Despite what people say about them not caring I simply think this is nonsense and the EU want us to stay and the EU would be stronger with the UK in it and the EU would attempt to use any means necessary to do this.

Out with no deal is not a great situation but it's a risk for both sides. It won't be good for EU businesses that sell to us and won't be good for businesses here to sell to the UK.

One does wonder though. If the EU is so great and so beneficial, why on earth are they so scared of even contemplating a FTA and have said absolutely no FTA since even before the vote? Surely no other country would follow in our footsteps?
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2884
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:54 pm

sevenair wrote:
I am not opposed to paying something. Who can say how much we will have to pay but even without the rebate I imagine the savings will be huge as paying for access to maintain a working relationship with certain institutions (which is mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU) could be a price worth paying for.


Norway pays more per capita than the UK. The UK won't get a better deal than Norway, so the UK may well end up paying more than now.


sevenair wrote:
If the EU is so great and so beneficial, why on earth are they so scared of even contemplating a FTA and have said absolutely no FTA since even before the vote? Surely no other country would follow in our footsteps?


I'm not sure you're following the news. The EU opening position is a Canada-like deal, which is a FTA.

The graph with the UK red lines has been posted several times in this thread.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 388
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:47 pm

Can we just join EFTA and get this over with so we can worry about more important things?
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:50 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Can we just join EFTA and get this over with so we can worry about more important things?

There is no clear and easy yes/no answer to that question.

First of all, it does not automatically also include membership of the EU common market. The relationships between EFTA countries and EU is very much on bilateral basis. There is a reason why we talk about "Norway Model", not so much "EFTA Model", or "Liechtenstein Model". For instance EFTA member Switzerland isn't an EEA member state, therefore not officially a member of the EU common market. Instead Switzerland has a range of bilateral agreements with the EU which aren't so different from EEA membership.

The issue has been discussed from time to time. But first of all the EFTA members will have to accept the UK as a member, and that may take more than just filling in an application form. In August 2016 the Norwegian Government expressed reservations. Norway's European affairs minister, Elisabeth Vik Aspaker, told the Aftenposten newspaper: "It’s not certain that it would be a good idea to let a big country into this organization. It would shift the balance, which is not necessarily in Norway’s interests".

Letting in a country, which is five times larger than all present member states combined, and a country which is mentally split almost exactly fifty-fifty over EU membership, and has a two years history of not being able to express any plans for own future. Aeh, that could easily open a strangely smelling can of worms.

But first you must ask in Bern, Oslo, Reykjavik and in Vaduz.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:58 am

prebennorholm wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Can we just join EFTA and get this over with so we can worry about more important things?

There is no clear and easy yes/no answer to that question.

First of all, it does not automatically also include membership of the EU common market. The relationships between EFTA countries and EU is very much on bilateral basis. There is a reason why we talk about "Norway Model", not so much "EFTA Model", or "Liechtenstein Model". For instance EFTA member Switzerland isn't an EEA member state, therefore not officially a member of the EU common market. Instead Switzerland has a range of bilateral agreements with the EU which aren't so different from EEA membership.

The issue has been discussed from time to time. But first of all the EFTA members will have to accept the UK as a member, and that may take more than just filling in an application form. In August 2016 the Norwegian Government expressed reservations. Norway's European affairs minister, Elisabeth Vik Aspaker, told the Aftenposten newspaper: "It’s not certain that it would be a good idea to let a big country into this organization. It would shift the balance, which is not necessarily in Norway’s interests".

Letting in a country, which is five times larger than all present member states combined, and a country which is mentally split almost exactly fifty-fifty over EU membership, and has a two years history of not being able to express any plans for own future. Aeh, that could easily open a strangely smelling can of worms.

But first you must ask in Bern, Oslo, Reykjavik and in Vaduz.


Plus being in EFTA crosses a couple of the UK red lines. Free movement of people being the most obvious. No significant contribution to the EU budget, regulatory autonomy.....

Once again:

Image
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:04 am

sevenair wrote:
I am not opposed to paying something. Who can say how much we will have to pay but even without the rebate I imagine the savings will be huge as paying for access to maintain a working relationship with certain institutions (which is mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU) could be a price worth paying for.


You can imagine a lot of things, but no longer after almost 18 months of banging your head against the wall in Brussels, like the British government has been doing. The reality is that the UK is slowly starting to understand the colossal task and cost of recreating basically the entire EU's institutional and regulatory setup back at home if it wants to be complete out and "free", so the idea that it is better to keep participating in many/most/all of the EU agencies and institutions is now back on the agenda in London.
The idea has officially been floated only a few weeks ago, yet the list of desired opt ins has grown ever since, from 'just a few' initially, to more than any other third country currently! Basically every sector of the British economy is lobbying for their agency to be included and thus avoid regulatory headaches, added red tape and likely also inflated operating costs. And you can be sure a Conservative government to give them their full attention and support.
The question you can ask then is whether it wouldn't make sense for the UK to also take up a seat in the EU governing table if it ends up participating in and paying for so many EU agencies? In the absence of this, the UK is simply remaining an EU member in all but name, just like Norway for instance: with the full obligation to follow all the EU rules, yet without any influence over these rules! How weird of an outcome of Brexit that would be?

Anyway, if such is the wish of the British government now, then so be it: I will have to say so explicitly, but it comes with both an enduring financial commitment (and likely at a higher rate than today as a EU member if the EFTA countries are to be taken as an example) AND with full and binding legal jurisdiction and oversight by the ECJ too of course.
You may throw as many sweetening adjectives to it as you want really (specific, limited, mutually beneficial, targeted), but it means just that: giving up yet more ground and blurring the red lines further, just as has been happening ever since article 50 was called and the elections lost in fact...

Indeed, a lot has been said on both sides and as so often, far more is said than is being done: as a matter of fact, nothing has been done so far at all, other than the UK wasting almost the entire transition period foreseen in the EU treaty and begging for an extension of the status quo by the time it realised time was almost up. And the reading of events shows you this is what is going to be the final outcome too if there ever is one: a status quo, in which PM May will deliver on her core promise of "brexit means brexit" only... and indeed nothing more, so Brexit just in name.. initially only temporarily, but in fact permanently.

Forget about regaining sovereignty over your fishing grounds... not if you want a FTA (which you do)
Forget about getting from under the ECJ jurisdiction... not if you want to opt in on as good as all the agencies (which you do)
Forget about getting from under the ECHR jurisdiction... it's not an EU institution in the first place even! (hardly anybody seems to know in Britain)
Forget about saving money on the EU budget contribution... the NHS will have to go whistle for its money at the door of all the newly created British agencies
Forget about a comprehensive FTA including services... FTA cover goods only

But you can have a EU produced blue passport... which you always could, btw

Oh, and in case the status quo is abruptly ended by a 'hard Brexit' out of frustration and despair, freedom of movement from the EU is then halted too.
Never understood why people who look exactly the same as most other Brits and come over to the UK only to work really hard and support sectors of the British economy which are in need of additional labour forces are such a big problem in a country which is as diverse and colourful as Britain, which on occasions looks like its big cities are a collection of its glorious colonial past. I'd think a while Christian Polish pub servant is about the least of issues to the lads having a beer there?

Seriously, you've been sold nothing but a daydream by some very selfish and very rich foreign news outlet owners, who have infected the minds of the British people and propped up some very ambitious rightwing politicians with loads of money and these two are the only ones who are going to be getting any better, post Brexit, because the British politicians will be having more power in their hands, whereas their paymasters will have more influence over them to make these politicians use it exactly the way they want it... and believe me: it's NOT to make millions of ordinary people struggling to get by any better off, you know? It's to make even more millions themselves. Ironically, isn't this how Britain has always been ... and should be once more according to some? An extremely wealthy aristocratic top layer in total control of everything, with millions of 'subjects' living in near poverty under them? Glorious were the days of Britain indeed...
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:50 am

JJJ wrote:
sevenair wrote:
I am not opposed to paying something. Who can say how much we will have to pay but even without the rebate I imagine the savings will be huge as paying for access to maintain a working relationship with certain institutions (which is mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU) could be a price worth paying for.


Norway pays more per capita than the UK. The UK won't get a better deal than Norway, so the UK may well end up paying more than now.


sevenair wrote:
If the EU is so great and so beneficial, why on earth are they so scared of even contemplating a FTA and have said absolutely no FTA since even before the vote? Surely no other country would follow in our footsteps?


I'm not sure you're following the news. The EU opening position is a Canada-like deal, which is a FTA.

The graph with the UK red lines has been posted several times in this thread.


Norways is a member of the single market. We won't be. Canada-like deal is a FTA but remain and the EU have said many a time that a FTA won't be offered and a FTA is 'dangerous brexiteeer dreaming' and Sabena pilot seems to be implying that the EU have steadfastly refused the idea of it.
Last edited by sevenair on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:04 am

Sabenapilot - this isn't a right wing nor a left wing issue. Hard left Corbyn wanted to leave and has been a eurosceptic for decades and wanted to invoke A50 the day after the vote as did right wingers such as Farage. The election was not lost In fact parties who were pro leave at the time received over 90% of the vote.

You were doing so well but then mentioned blue passports. I did not know the UK even had blue passports Blue passports weren't a reason for leaving for a single brexiteers I spoke with. I'm of an age that I didn't know we had blue passports until about six months ago when the Guardian and remainers kept telling me that the reason that I voted was because of blue passports. That and this nonsense about the 'Empire'.

FOM will end in the event of a hard Brexit but there's nothing to stop us from rolling out the temporary worker visas we have for agricultural workers from Europe. But I had no problem with FOM so it doesn't really bother me but given that EU immigrants outnumber UK emigrants by 3:1 it is EU nations who'll suffer most from this. People still want to come here and we will have the mechanism of allowing them here.

The NHS doesn't deserve a penny more and if I thought there was a risk of it getting a penny more I'd have voted remain. ECJ jurisdiction over working with a specific agency is different to ECJ supremacy over many aspects of the country as a whole.

Your argument doesn't get stronger just because you parrot nonsense about blue passports or keep repeating lies such as the election being lost or the 'Empire'. Here was me thinking we were having an adult conversation. It's as tired and cliched as my signature.

I think I'll leave you guys to it.
Last edited by sevenair on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:09 am

sevenair wrote:
JJJ wrote:
sevenair wrote:
I am not opposed to paying something. Who can say how much we will have to pay but even without the rebate I imagine the savings will be huge as paying for access to maintain a working relationship with certain institutions (which is mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU) could be a price worth paying for.


Norway pays more per capita than the UK. The UK won't get a better deal than Norway, so the UK may well end up paying more than now.


sevenair wrote:
If the EU is so great and so beneficial, why on earth are they so scared of even contemplating a FTA and have said absolutely no FTA since even before the vote? Surely no other country would follow in our footsteps?


I'm not sure you're following the news. The EU opening position is a Canada-like deal, which is a FTA.

The graph with the UK red lines has been posted several times in this thread.


Norways is a member of the single market. We won't be. Canada-like deal is a FTA but remain and the EU have said many a time that a FTA won't be offered and a FTA is 'dangerous brexiteeer dreaming'.


Well, choose your sources better because you're plain wrong.

The base EU offer is the Canada deal, which is a FTA. It's been repeated multiple times by multiple voices.

Barnier:
EU says final Brexit trade deal will be 'along same lines' as agreements with Canada, South Korea and Japan
Michel Barnier says UK red lines have ruled out relationship similar to other European countries
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 19956.html

Tusk:
EU offers Canada-dry Brexit deal, while Tusk says “no pick and mix” is on offer
https://www.neweurope.eu/article/eu-off ... mix-offer/

Merkel:
Merkel: Post-Brexit trade deal need not mean ‘cherry-picking’
Compromise can be found, German chancellor says after talks with May.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... y-picking/

Macron:
Macron: bespoke trade deal possible if UK accepts 'preconditions'
French president says conditions for access to single market are strict and non-negotiable
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... s-possible

What the EU insists is that the British pipe dream of getting all the perks and none of the obligations is just that, pie-in-the-sky material.

It's the UK choice to take that bare FTA or better access with more sacrifices.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:15 am

sevenair

You are confused. A FTA is all that is on the table.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:19 am

JJJ wrote:
sevenair wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Norway pays more per capita than the UK. The UK won't get a better deal than Norway, so the UK may well end up paying more than now.




I'm not sure you're following the news. The EU opening position is a Canada-like deal, which is a FTA.

The graph with the UK red lines has been posted several times in this thread.


Norways is a member of the single market. We won't be. Canada-like deal is a FTA but remain and the EU have said many a time that a FTA won't be offered and a FTA is 'dangerous brexiteeer dreaming'.


Well, choose your sources better because you're plain wrong.

The base EU offer is the Canada deal, which is a FTA. It's been repeated multiple times by multiple voices.

Barnier:
EU says final Brexit trade deal will be 'along same lines' as agreements with Canada, South Korea and Japan
Michel Barnier says UK red lines have ruled out relationship similar to other European countries
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 19956.html

Tusk:
EU offers Canada-dry Brexit deal, while Tusk says “no pick and mix” is on offer
https://www.neweurope.eu/article/eu-off ... mix-offer/

Merkel:
Merkel: Post-Brexit trade deal need not mean ‘cherry-picking’
Compromise can be found, German chancellor says after talks with May.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... y-picking/

Macron:
Macron: bespoke trade deal possible if UK accepts 'preconditions'
French president says conditions for access to single market are strict and non-negotiable
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... s-possible

What the EU insists is that the British pipe dream of getting all the perks and none of the obligations is just that, pie-in-the-sky material.

It's the UK choice to take that bare FTA or better access with more sacrifices.


So it's just me that's 'plain wrong' not the remainers who pretty much say the same thing. It's pretty much exactly where I want us to be and what I've said from the start. If you read through what I've said instead of just jumping in with your condescending posting you'll see that that's exactly what I want and a remainer told me we won't get that, and I've said that I'll quite happily accept that there will be compromises on both sides and I'm quite happy to accept that ECJ jurisdiction will apply to the aspects of the relationship which it will be party to. Why so angry all the time?
Last edited by sevenair on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:20 am

Olddog wrote:
sevenair

You are confused. A FTA is all that is on the table.


And the remainers who say a FTA isn't possible. Are they too confused?
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:24 am

sevenair wrote:
You were doing so well but then mentioned blue passports. I did not know the UK even had blue passports Blue passports weren't a reason for leaving for a single brexiteers I spoke with. I'm of an age that I didn't know we had blue passports until about six months ago when the Guardian and remainers kept telling me that the reason that I voted was because of blue passports.


You just don't get it, do you? :shakehead:

There is no issue with the colour of our passports. However, the fact that a decision was taken to return to blue passports and given that decision was trumpeted so loudly by the likes of tosser-in-chief Jacob Rees Mogg and rags like the Daily Mail, simply reinforces the view that many leavers are a bunch of narrow-minded, little Britains who imagine being free of the "tyranny of EU rule" will somehow magically transport the UK back to its "all white glory days".

It's a stick with which to beat those obnoxious people as they seem to be the ones that care about it. Otherwise, nobody cares about the colour of the passport.

Hope that helps.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:39 am

sevenair wrote:
Remain and the EU have said many a time that a FTA won't be offered and a FTA is 'dangerous brexiteeer dreaming'.



The EU for sure has never said a FTA won't be offered or is "dangerous daydreaming".
As the graph published above clearly shows (please note how it's an official document from the EU), a FTA is the default outcome for the EU even, solely due to all the red lines drawn by the British government and really them alone (since not even the British people have drawn these red lines in the referendum).

However, what is "Brexiteer daydreaming" is to be asking for a FTA which includes not just GOODS but also SERVICES.
GOODS can relatively easily be made to comply with EU production standards and be tested once prior to them coming to the EU market, but the 'production standard' in SERVICES offered from the UK is just a set of local regulations really, so you can only guarantee full and enduring regulatory compliance of all those British services offered in the EU if you have an independent supervising body in place.

Since such is not acceptable (yet) for the UK, no services can be durably included in any FTA with the EU. Not so much because the EU doesn't want so, but because the British side doesn't accept that they'll have to offer more than just their word to be willing to play by the same rules, simple as that really.
Besides, if you promise not to diverge from current EU rules and mirror any future changes like is being offered now in order to include services, why can't you make it simple and transfer the power to the regulator you promise to mirror anyway? It's just window dressing to pretend to be in full charge then, isn't it, if you have Westminster rubber stamping whatever they are being sent from Brussels in order to remain access for services?

Since services as the main chunk of the British economy, I think that in the end the UK is going to give in once again and sign up to a whole range of agencies and regulatory oversight bodies despite the current red lines to make sure most services can continue to benefit from some sort of access to the EU market and it wil effectively make the UK part of the Single Market System, if not in name and by one single agreement like Norway, then by an endless set of costly, complex and intermixed opt ins, just like Switzerland really.
Remember how the Swiss have tried to change one element of their set of bilateral agreements with the EU (the one on the freedom of movement), and suddenly discovered the 'all or nothing' clauses in their deals with the EU? The similarities with the UK's situation of discovering there's no cherry picking possible are striking.
Note how such an "associated Single Market membership agreement" Swiss style would also solve the Irish border issue, which currently has been 'solved' by the British government agreeing to letting NI stay in forever should there be no alternative solution in place in time... a climb down on just where the UK as a whole stands in relationship to the Single Market may thus be sold domestically as a win on the NI issue: PM May standing firm on the UK's integrity and winning a comprehensive FTA. How's that as a political win? That the small print effectively means the EU comes back in not just through a single back door like in Norway, but through basically every window and lettre box opening like in Switzerland will be 'too complex to explain'.
I thus fully expect further climb downs from the UK and ultimately a compromise in which London goes 95% of the way to find common ground: Bern has done so before too and if the lead Brexiteers would not be so convinced about British exceptionalism, they would see how everything they try has been tried before by others, who failed. Whereas EU membership ends for the UK, the EU itself continues forever, so whatever is put in place as final compromise between the 2 sides must foremost be workable and solid for the EU in future dealings with other third countries, otherwise any solution to the British problem becomes a problem for the EU later. None of the 27 governments is even remotely interested in that, and rightfully so.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:43 am

sevenair wrote:
and I've said that I'll quite happily accept that there will be compromises on both sides and I'm quite happy to accept that ECJ jurisdiction will apply to the aspects of the relationship which it will be party to.


So you want an Ukrainian type of deal?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:52 am

I've made my stance perfectly clear in several posts over the last 24 hours.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:56 am

Oh dear, how sad

Image

Even the FT have accepted that we are leaving the EU! Blue passports, make Britain white again, bring back the Empire, bendy bananas, brown fried food, incandescent light bulbs, powerful hoovers. Not long until we have this back. Afterall that's why we voted leave, right?
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:59 am

"make Britain white again, bring back the Empire"? racist country? And for the empire? Some other countries might have something to say about that ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:00 am

Oh dear, how sad

Image
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:01 am

sevenair wrote:
I've made my stance perfectly clear in several posts over the last 24 hours.



might be so, but the EU has just some flavors to choose from.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:16 am

Sevenair,
i see that as soon as practical realworld questions are being asked, you are reverting back to just shouting slogans...
Over the past 24 hours you've indeed drawn a clear and honnest picture of what you'd want and for which you should be applauded, but as many people have said: such a complex and multi coloured and multi flavoured solution is just not possible, sorry, so pick any colour between black and white that is available please.
You may genuinely think that it is a perfectly workable compromise offer indeed, and for the UK it probably would as well, but as said: it's not acceptable to the much bigger and stronger side and so much more will have to give in the UK before there's ever going to be a much needed deal because it's really not the task of the EU to bend over backwards to let Britain do well on its own.
I understand you need more time to come around this reality, but I'd urge you to try hard and fast, because the clock is ticking and resetting it every so many months does come with a heafty price for the UK.
I agree the aim can not be just to change the colour of the passports, but since government is actively persuing this, it seems they too fear it may be about the only tangeable change for the forseable future!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:45 am

sevenair wrote:
Olddog wrote:
sevenair

You are confused. A FTA is all that is on the table.


And the remainers who say a FTA isn't possible. Are they too confused?


Care to provide any examples? Because I'm starting to think there's a reading comprehension problem here.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:50 am

Oh dear, how hillarious.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/04/inside-brexit-broadcasting-corporation-how-remainers-turned-bbc

Pro remain BBC for have talked down Brexit since well before the vote are now being accused of being pro Brexit!
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:21 am

prebennorholm wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Can we just join EFTA and get this over with so we can worry about more important things?

There is no clear and easy yes/no answer to that question.

First of all, it does not automatically also include membership of the EU common market. The relationships between EFTA countries and EU is very much on bilateral basis. There is a reason why we talk about "Norway Model", not so much "EFTA Model", or "Liechtenstein Model". For instance EFTA member Switzerland isn't an EEA member state, therefore not officially a member of the EU common market. Instead Switzerland has a range of bilateral agreements with the EU which aren't so different from EEA membership.


Actually, a group I follow EFTA4UK, wrote to the Austrian foreign ministry and the reply they got implied they as the UK is already an EEA member, switching to EFTA would not change that, in the same way that Austria switched from EFTA to the EU without leaving the EEA. The big question is of course whether the EFTA states would allow the UK to rejoin EFTA.

Of course it means compromising on things like free movement but to be really honest, if you asked people in the UK which migration bothers them the most, deep down it won't be people from Poland. I've also yet to see anyone suggest a viable alternative to the European Common Aviation Area (although it does include states that aren't in either the EU or EFTA so I don't see why the UK shouldn't negotiate to stay in it regardless of whether we rejoin EFTA or not).
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:38 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Can we just join EFTA and get this over with so we can worry about more important things?

There is no clear and easy yes/no answer to that question.

First of all, it does not automatically also include membership of the EU common market. The relationships between EFTA countries and EU is very much on bilateral basis. There is a reason why we talk about "Norway Model", not so much "EFTA Model", or "Liechtenstein Model". For instance EFTA member Switzerland isn't an EEA member state, therefore not officially a member of the EU common market. Instead Switzerland has a range of bilateral agreements with the EU which aren't so different from EEA membership.


Actually, a group I follow EFTA4UK, wrote to the Austrian foreign ministry and the reply they got implied they as the UK is already an EEA member, switching to EFTA would not change that, in the same way that Austria switched from EFTA to the EU without leaving the EEA. The big question is of course whether the EFTA states would allow the UK to rejoin EFTA.

Of course it means compromising on things like free movement but to be really honest, if you asked people in the UK which migration bothers them the most, deep down it won't be people from Poland. I've also yet to see anyone suggest a viable alternative to the European Common Aviation Area (although it does include states that aren't in either the EU or EFTA so I don't see why the UK shouldn't negotiate to stay in it regardless of whether we rejoin EFTA or not).


There's still the issue of current EFTA members wanting the UK back. It would massively change the internal balance of the group.

When the UK left EFTA for the EEC there were critical voices on the remaining members mostly about the UK being opportunist. They will be heard again for sure.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:23 pm

sevenair wrote:
Oh dear, how hillarious.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/04/inside-brexit-broadcasting-corporation-how-remainers-turned-bbc

Pro remain BBC for have talked down Brexit since well before the vote are now being accused of being pro Brexit!


A reasonable person might draw the conclusion that if the BBC is being criticised by both sides of an argument, it is likely being reasonably balanced. :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:23 pm

sevenair wrote:
Oh dear, how hillarious.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/04/inside-brexit-broadcasting-corporation-how-remainers-turned-bbc

Pro remain BBC for have talked down Brexit since well before the vote are now being accused of being pro Brexit!


The amount of untruths still being talked on a daily basis by pro-brexit MPs and guests on BBC TV shows and Radio without any recourse or questioning from BBC employees would have any analytical, intelligent minded person start to think the same thing. I guess if BBC hosts started to pro-actively call out these people lots of Pro Brexit viewers will state the BBC is pro remain.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:25 am

"Oh but the EU don't care that we are leaving"

Image

And yet we are meant to be outraged by the much debunked 'Russian hackers caused Brexit' line but here's the EU Commission seemingly trying to influence things here in these beautiful islands and comes after calls from Lib Dem and Labour to use polls to derail Brexit.

People still can't accept it can they? Not the remoaners. Not the EU. We are leaving!
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:01 am

Your problem is a call to the citizens to use their legal rights ?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8152
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:06 am

sevenair wrote:
we much debunked 'Russian hackers caused Brexit' line


http://www.wired.co.uk/article/russia-b ... ook-google

Well, according to Sputnik and RT it is debunked, in reality it ain´t. But reality and facts don´t play well, nor ever did they, with the anti-democratic hard Brexit folks.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:09 am

Going global. Still

Image

Got the message at last?

Image

Day by day we are closer to (delete remainer nonsense as appropriate): blue passports | getting rid of foreigners | bendy bananas | incandescent lightbulbs | powerful vacuum cleaners
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8152
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:41 am

sevenair wrote:

Got the message at last?



57%-not in favor of your kind of Brexit.

Did you get the message?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:43 pm

Promise: Brexit would lead to a reduction in investment

What really happened:

Image

Myth: BUSTED. Oh dear, how sad.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.

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