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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:51 am

seahawk wrote:
The cut should have been fast and clear. And it should have meant no further relationship with the EU outside of basic WTO rules.


But that was not what ‘vote leave’ argued for in the referendum and was also not on the referendum ballot paper.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:55 am

seahawk wrote:
The cut should have been fast and clear. And it should have meant no further relationship with the EU outside of basic WTO rules.


But that was not what ‘vote leave’ argued for in the referendum and was also not on the referendum ballot paper.
Last edited by Richard28 on Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:59 am

I am now in shock that those old people who have sacrificed the future of the young people in the UK were actually using Facebook and being influenced by Leavers who overspent their budget, who knew that these old people still clinging to the colonial past actually knew what social media was much less how to use it on their own without the guidance of their young children.....
Last edited by par13del on Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:07 pm

Richard28 wrote:
But that was not what ‘vote leave’ argued for in the referendum and was also not on the referendum ballot paper.

Exactly, all that was on the ballot was In or Out, nothing that either side argued about was on the ballot......it goes back to the question worded by parliament....perhaps both sides should have spent more time on their campaign teaching the country basic English to ensure a fair vote.

To me the bottom line is that the parliament worded the question like that because none of them expected the majority of voters to choose out, they made their bed now they
are doing all they can to make the country uncomfortable to lie in the bed of their making.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:03 pm

A must read. I think it perfectly sum up (and with a better english that I ever could write :) ) why I say that I am all for the UK to completly leave the EU for now:

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-europe-british-exceptionalism-drove-vote-but-eu-media-arent-buying-it/

British ‘exceptionalism’ drove Brexit, but EU media aren’t buying it

A survey of EU media coverage since the referendum has reflected a lack of concern about the impact of Brexit on the Continent.

The United Kingdom’s approach to the European project has from the start been colored by a belief in a kind of chauvinistic otherness — we were happy to be part of the club, but only on the condition we could have a special status within it.

Whether this stems from an island psyche, an imperial history, repelling World War II occupation or something else is debatable, but with respect to European integration, successive prime ministers have pursued a policy of “British exceptionalism” — think Margaret Thatcher’s budget rebate.

The policy was articulated last year in a lecture by the U.K.’s former EU Ambassador Ivan Rogers, in which he described David Cameron’s ill-fated efforts to strike a deal with the EU27 that would persuade voters to back Remain in the referendum. “Throughout all his years in office, [Cameron] was in defending and enhancing British exceptionalism, and in carving out a permanent niche, within the market project, but outside the monetary, banking, fiscal and political union. He believed strongly that this was in the U.K.’s best interests,” said Rogers.

A more extreme form of this belief in Britain’s special place on the edge of Europe drove both the Brexiteers’ case in the referendum campaign and arguably their approach to the negotiations since. Europe needs the U.K. so much and fears the loss of its market so keenly, the argument goes, that it will allow Britain to slice and dice the benefits of the EU while shedding itself of the responsibilities.

Now it is on the way out, British exceptionalism seems to reside only in Brexiteers’ heads.

In short, the EU will allow Britain to cherry pick.


I am really fed up to read everywhere that the result of the referendum was EU fault because it did not cave to more UK opt-outs. The only EU fault was to give the rebate in the eighties....
Last edited by Olddog on Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:08 pm

Well I believe there is some revisionist history in the comments, my memory is that the referendum was authorized after getting no deal.
Politically within the UK, DC was backed into a corner of having to offer the referendum if no deal was made, so it is not accurate to say he wanted the deal to influence the vote, if my memory is correct it does not change the general theme / message of the article, but it can affect how we consider the messenger.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:14 pm

It should also be noted that Tony Blair did give back some of the Thatcher rebate.....so its been falling for a while, DC only prevented a further 300 million raid by the French.....not sure how that affect the tone of the article but.....
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:24 pm

par13del wrote:
Well I believe there is some revisionist history in the comments, my memory is that the referendum was authorized after getting no deal.
Politically within the UK, DC was backed into a corner of having to offer the referendum if no deal was made, so it is not accurate to say he wanted the deal to influence the vote, if my memory is correct it does not change the general theme / message of the article, but it can affect how we consider the messenger.


What does "affect how we consider the messenger" mean?

Who is the "messenger" here? The journalist? The ex-UK Ambassador? The Oxford study? The random folk in the comment section?

The general theme of this article is that EU politicians aren't under as much pressure as UK politicians because of general public apathy in the EU towards Brexit.

How do you "consider the messenger" in this context?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:54 pm

The other theme of the article:

"The United Kingdom’s approach to the European project has from the start been colored by a belief in a kind of chauvinistic otherness — we were happy to be part of the club, but only on the condition we could have a special status within it.

Whether this stems from an island psyche, an imperial history, repelling World War II occupation or something else is debatable, but with respect to European integration, successive prime ministers have pursued a policy of “British exceptionalism” — think Margaret Thatcher’s budget rebate."

Based on the desires of the political administration to do all that is necessary to remain in the EU one can be skeptical of this thought process, after all, we do know that only the old people voted leave and they are still living in nostalgia.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:44 pm

par13del wrote:

Based on the desires of the political administration to do all that is necessary to remain in the EU one can be skeptical of this thought process, after all, we do know that only the old people voted leave and they are still living in nostalgia.


Only if we're redefining the political administration to exclude the Brexiteers (Johnson, Gove, Patel, JRM, Raab etc).

The exceptionalism was always meant to appease their lot. They believe that conditions that are acceptable to Germany, France, the Netherlands etc, are not good enough for the UK. Indeed, they implicitly belittle those countries as non-democratic, non-sovereign nations for accepting them. If that's not chauvinism or exceptionalism, I don't know what is.

They're also powerful political figures with strong support bases. Without them, Single Market or CU membership would still be on the table - an attractive prospect for a "political administration to do all that is necessary to remain in the EU". Yet the administration doesn't dare. The old people you refer to are only relevant here because they support that brand of exceptionalism and chauvinism. They think nothing of insulting other EU states.

I thought the article explained that well enough, but clearly YMMV. What part of it do you disagree with?
 
GDB
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:59 pm

 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:17 pm

GDB wrote:


I blame your tabloids for that: somehow they are trying to convince the brits that the EU would be just fine with the UK having equal say to the EU27. Seriously ?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:18 pm

GDB wrote:


Astonishing isn’t it?

Yet still they insist that Brexit is the right thing for our country - yet clearly have not got the faintest clue what they are doing or where we will end up.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:55 am

A year to go! One year until we get our country back and take control. Expect more frantic attempts to derail Brexit but no matter how hard people try this great nation will leave the EU.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:00 am

A year to go! One year until we still have our country but lose a lot of control. Expect more frantic attempts to derail Brexit but no matter how hard people try to deny us this great nation should have a say in the final decision. #exitbrexit
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:13 am

Richard28 wrote:
reminds me of the lady from a fishing port last week who phoned a radio show to boast that South Korea will buy their whelks and they do not need the EU - she even had a container load of whelks ready to ship out to Seoul that day....

.... not realising the fact that it is an EU trade deal that allows those whelks to go to South Korea tariff free (a trade deal that would of course be lost on leaving the EU)

Too much misinformation and too many misinformed people :(


I read this today at the Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fore ... -hpf6njhvt

Image

Looks awful, right? Those bloody foreigners stealing our fish!

A spokesman for Lesley Griffiths, the Welsh environment secretary, said: “Welsh vessel owners — as did Scottish and English — have legitimately sold their boats and quota allocations to UK companies with owners in other EU states.”

Such transactions highlight a key flaw in Gove’s pledge to take back the fishing quota from the EU and give it to UK fishers. Any quota could be sold to foreign-owned firms.


So, ok, maybe it's that British fishermen (the ones owning the boats, not the poor sods who lost their jobs) sold their quota to EU firms. It doesn't make as good of a headline, though.

Related to that, Greenpeace took the UK to court over their system of allocating quotas (those quotas that are afterwards sold and bartered to foreign conglomerates) and each and every court has claimed they're anything but "transparent and objective" as the UKGov claimed.

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/press-rel ... ing-quota/
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:30 am

Oh no! We won't be able to use Netflix in the EU once we are independent.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brits-prevented-from-taking-netflix-abroad-post-brexit/

Wait, didn't the remoaners promise us that we'd not be able to roam and have to pay thousands of pounds to get content abroad (this at a time when people were still easily running up hundreds of pounds worth of phone debt whilst streaming in the EU).

The reality of it all, from those who know
Image

But oh look! Brexit will cost us £778 a month in roaming charges. Oh why didn't they paint that on the side of a big blue bus?

http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/92133/brexit-return-of-roaming-charges-to-cost-business-travellers-778-a-month

You know it makes me wonder how the big phone networks can let me roam like I'm at home at dozens of non EU countries as far away as Australia and Argentina but once I've paid to get into France (by ferry of course, as Brexit will stop all flights so I'm told) and I'm in possession of a visa that we will need to get into EU countries, I'm going to be charged £778 a month in roaming charges despite still being in view of the UK!

Sacré bleu!
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:38 am

sevenair wrote:


Fantastic news sevenair!

The EU rules that banned roaming charges were an excellent result for EU residents and a subperb example of the EU working for the benefit of us all!

Yes, lets hope that the UK carriers continue to work on the same basis after Brexit!

#exitbrexit

p.s. can't help but like this video, what has the EU ever done for us? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5D0t6ejcGE
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:10 am

sevenair wrote:
I'm going to be charged £778 a month in roaming charges despite still being in view of the UK!


no you're not sevenair.

A quick research into this shows that this £778 cost is the worst case scenario cost for a business customer if things revert to how they were before the EU data roaming rules came into place. But the position on roaming charges post Brexit has yet to be agreed (as has pretty much everything else!).

If you read the house of commons library on the subject it gives lots of fascinating detail on the legislation and possible impacts

http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P-8034.pdf

The EU banning of roaming charges in June 2017 saved the UK customer an estimated £350m a year.

Great result by the EU :checkmark:
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:24 am

sevenair wrote:
Oh why didn't they paint that on the side of a big blue bus?


interesting you should bring up buses.

Your "full facts" source has provided some interesting facts on costs of EU membership (thank for bringing this to my attention!)
Image

so with the rebate we pay the EU we pay £250m a week - not the £350m painted on the Vote Leave Lie Bus!

also we get back a further £5bn a year, reducing the actual net cost to only £153.8m a week.

And that's before the benefits of roaming charges, the single market, customs union, trade agreements with over 50 non EU countries and so much else!

Great value for Money :bouncy:
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:56 am

Lots of 'could' and 'might' scaremongering here and when there isn't there's fears of banks moving tiny percentages of their London operations abroad. You lot will love it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/978903948965875714

No mention of the created London jobs or reaffirmed commitment by banks to London nor the jobs created.

Meanwhile;

Forecast of Brexit job losses from City of London drops by half
An updated survey of top financial services firms finds the number of UK jobs likely to be shifted by Brexit falling by half.

https://news.sky.com/story/forecast-of-brexit-job-losses-from-city-of-london-drops-by-half-11306851

Im gutted for you all.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:14 pm

Only sevenair can be pleased and ‘gutted’ for us that jobs will be leaving the uk.

Brexit madness made clear! #exitbrexit
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:01 pm

sevenair wrote:
A year to go! One year until we get our country back and take control. Expect more frantic attempts to derail Brexit but no matter how hard people try this great nation will leave the EU.


Again, when did you give up your country and lose control???? I asked this previously but you never did respond. Obviously, you don't get out much....
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:25 pm

sevenair wrote:
A year to go! One year until we get our country back and take control.


Much closer to three years, actually. We don't escape the "tyranny of EU control" until 1st January 2021.

sevenair wrote:
But oh look! Brexit will cost us £778 a month in roaming charges.


Yeah, let's celebrate not having roaming charges once we've actually left the EU and those companies are no longer bound by EU regulation. All those claims were worded very carefully "We currently have no plans..."
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Yeah, let's celebrate not having roaming charges once we've actually left the EU and those companies are no longer bound by EU regulation. All those claims were worded very carefully "We currently have no plans..."


Absolutely. In the EU we are protected on roaming charges by law. In the Brexit future, unless we Sign up to parts of the EU single market we will be dependent upon the goodwill of corporations.

A big difference and I know which I would prefer.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:31 pm

British exceptionalism has been a fiction for several decades, and the reality is losing its 2nd tier economic status if it is not part of the EU. US exceptionalism is and has been a reality, until the near fascist "America First" movement reestablished itself. Our 'exceptionalism' came at a cost, we treated our allies really well, accepting both the benefits of our status AND the prices we paid. Current president is wanting to end those costs. On balance that exceptionalism has been a good thing. The biggest negative are the current never ending wars which never will be won. (now president said he would fix it - we see no plans). Brexit and America First are two pillars for killing the post WWII establishment. China and Russia seem to be the winner.
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ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:45 pm

Richard28 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Yeah, let's celebrate not having roaming charges once we've actually left the EU and those companies are no longer bound by EU regulation. All those claims were worded very carefully "We currently have no plans..."


Absolutely. In the EU we are protected on roaming charges by law. In the Brexit future, unless we Sign up to parts of the EU single market we will be dependent upon the goodwill of corporations.

A big difference and I know which I would prefer.


The goodwill of EU corporations no less. If they start charging U.K. Telecoms for using their networks, the costs will inevitably flow through to consumers.

I'm sure some Brexiteers are smart enough to realize that. Even if they pretend not to.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:14 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
British exceptionalism has been a fiction for several decades, and the reality is losing its 2nd tier economic status if it is not part of the EU. US exceptionalism is and has been a reality, until the near fascist "America First" movement reestablished itself. Our 'exceptionalism' came at a cost, we treated our allies really well, accepting both the benefits of our status AND the prices we paid. Current president is wanting to end those costs. On balance that exceptionalism has been a good thing. The biggest negative are the current never ending wars which never will be won. (now president said he would fix it - we see no plans). Brexit and America First are two pillars for killing the post WWII establishment. China and Russia seem to be the winner.


It's a different kind of exceptionalism. Unlike US exceptionalism, which has been fostered in an environment of sustained ascendancy, the British experience has witnessed the full spectrum, from the heyday of empire, to the Brexit purgatory of today.

I can understand why Brexiteers are latching on to Brexit to reset the post-colonial melancholia that set in after the Second World War, but they seem to have missed the bit about the world changing. While US exceptionalism has an aura of success, this Brexit British exceptionalism seems like a desperate bid by a 'has been' power to demand attention and respect.

I'm sure our British friends will realize one day that that's not how it works. Those commonwealth diplomats and businessmen who showed up in London to use it as an entry point/conduit into the EU, aren't impressed by the whole thing. In fact, they're rather annoyed. The Japanese don't even bother hiding it. With the exception of the Steve Bannons of this world, nobody is drinking the Brexit kool aid. It's not even about reality any more. It's about perception. And no matter how many good, or rather "not so bad" stories Sevenair digs up, most of the world sees Britain as a diminished nation. Including the foreign businessmen and diplomats who are key to Britains trade deals.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:19 pm

sevenair wrote:
Lots of 'could' and 'might' scaremongering here and when there isn't there's fears of banks moving tiny percentages of their London operations abroad. You lot will love it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/978903948965875714

No mention of the created London jobs or reaffirmed commitment by banks to London nor the jobs created.

Meanwhile;

Forecast of Brexit job losses from City of London drops by half
An updated survey of top financial services firms finds the number of UK jobs likely to be shifted by Brexit falling by half.

https://news.sky.com/story/forecast-of-brexit-job-losses-from-city-of-london-drops-by-half-11306851

Im gutted for you all.


Fine if you want Brexit, but don't claim it will be good for the UK, the UK will suffer (as will, to lesser extent, the EU).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:28 pm

About the Brexit referendum question, I find interesting to look at the referendum question that will be asked to New Caledonians at the end of the year.

Voters will be asked: "Do you want New Caledonia to accede to full sovereignty and become independent?"

Pretty clear.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:08 pm

Aesma wrote:
About the Brexit referendum question, I find interesting to look at the referendum question that will be asked to New Caledonians at the end of the year.

Voters will be asked: "Do you want New Caledonia to accede to full sovereignty and become independent?"

Pretty clear.


I ageee the referendum and debate was not clear with many interpretations of what the result actually means... single market? Customs union? Euroatom? EMA? Galileo? Etc etc

As such Theresa Mays mandate and interpretation is shakey to say the least.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:26 am

[quote="sevenair"]The reality of it all, from those who know
Image

This is nothing for the UK or UK cell phone companies to decide. Unless a special deal is made with EU27, then post Brexit any EU27 mobile network operator is free to charge any roaming fees to any UK cell phone company having a customer visiting EU27. And I haven't heard about cell phone companies not passing on such bills to the end users.

Very likely a deal will be made. But the UK is only one part needed to accept such a deal.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:59 am

scbriml wrote:
sevenair wrote:
A year to go! One year until we get our country back and take control.


Much closer to three years, actually. We don't escape the "tyranny of EU control" until 1st January 2021.

Yes, I also heard that Brexit was postponed by almost two years. But why was Brexit always assumed to be on the absolutely latest day? The sooner, the better, for all parties.

29 March 2019 seemed for a year almost written in stone. But that was supposed to be the absolute deadline. 28 March 2019 or any earlier date would be better.

Dear British friends, have you ever been thinking about how it will be felt by us EU27 citizens to now possibly have to look forward to almost two more years of badmouthing BS flowing eastwards over the Channel?

(No, schbriml, it's not pointed at you, I understood your irony, and I guess you are no less frustrated than me).

Until recently we could almost see and end to it - only one more year. But almost three more years, that's a very long time. And God forbid it, have we seen the last delay yet?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:19 pm

Sovereignty is a pernicious term. It obviously as a word derives from 'king', and more particularly an absolute king. As applied to a national government it implies no interference from the outside. This is of course utterly fictitious. It is not possible to live in a country and be free of outside influence unless you put a physical, a climate, hydrology, and electronic etc walls around yourself. National/international existence involves tradeoffs. Those of us opposed to Brexit are largely in contempt of the movement because at no point did the supporters actually discuss the tradeoffs in workable details.
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LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:05 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
This is nothing for the UK or UK cell phone companies to decide. Unless a special deal is made with EU27, then post Brexit any EU27 mobile network operator is free to charge any roaming fees to any UK cell phone company having a customer visiting EU27. And I haven't heard about cell phone companies not passing on such bills to the end users.


The passing of the bill doesn't need to be when the phone company owns the network abroad as well. However, those phone companies who depend on another's network will have to hope that the other network doesn't increase prices.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:43 pm

Oh dear, how sad

Image

Lets play the tombola of Brexit doom. Will it be that people won't have jobs so couldn't afford to fly, that we won't be able to fly as we need visas, that people will need to pay to go to Europe and therefore plane tickets will be super expensive.

I'm glad that we established that house prices falling is a 'good' thing so at least people won't be worrying about the value of their house which has crashed because of Brexit.

The CEO needs to tread carefully though as here on a.net we also discovered that the millions of Brits visiting Spain will simply be replaced by Russians just like that.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:54 am

586 posts, and we have seen countless advantages for the UK taking back control.

But what about us other EU states, the EU27? What benefits will we be able to enjoy?

In case of soft Brexit, then most things will be business as usual. But still there may be vast benefits to gain.

I am thinking along lines such as Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc. Post Brexit there will be no UK interference governing the EU27 relationships to those places. That gives EU27 a totally different angle of attack how to relate to such tax heavens.

What do we do to maximize the benefits of Brexit?

I only mention UK governed tax heavens because I assume that treating them without UK interference offer by far the greatest future benefits for EU27. There will be other things offering minor benefits from Brexit.

Time to prepare.

Nothing will solve all tax heaven problems completely. Certainly not what is done illegally in secret. But Cayman Islands and Gibraltar are somewhat special because they (mostly?) operate technically "legally" with some of the world's largest corporations. After Brexit we can change the legal platform without listening to comments or vetoes from the UK.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:15 am

prebennorholm wrote:
586 posts, and we have seen countless advantages for the UK taking back control.

But what about us other EU states, the EU27? What benefits will we be able to enjoy?

In case of soft Brexit, then most things will be business as usual. But still there may be vast benefits to gain.

I am thinking along lines such as Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc. Post Brexit there will be no UK interference governing the EU27 relationships to those places. That gives EU27 a totally different angle of attack how to relate to such tax heavens.

What do we do to maximize the benefits of Brexit?

I only mention UK governed tax heavens because I assume that treating them without UK interference offer by far the greatest future benefits for EU27. There will be other things offering minor benefits from Brexit.

Time to prepare.

Nothing will solve all tax heaven problems completely. Certainly not what is done illegally in secret. But Cayman Islands and Gibraltar are somewhat special because they (mostly?) operate technically "legally" with some of the world's largest corporations. After Brexit we can change the legal platform without listening to comments or vetoes from the UK.


Dynamic will change, probably the EU will advance more quickly, the UK was one of the forces to slow the EU down. Tax havens are only one part of it. So that is a positive thing (if you want the EU to be more integrated). The negative thing is the economics, the impact is less than the UK of course but still.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:30 am

prebennorholm wrote:
586 posts, and we have seen countless advantages for the UK taking back control.

But what about us other EU states, the EU27? What benefits will we be able to enjoy?

In case of soft Brexit, then most things will be business as usual. But still there may be vast benefits to gain.

I am thinking along lines such as Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc. Post Brexit there will be no UK interference governing the EU27 relationships to those places. That gives EU27 a totally different angle of attack how to relate to such tax heavens.


For starters Spain has secured a veto on what provisions of the EU-UK agreements will apply to Gibraltar.

http://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-e ... and-2018-3

Gibraltar is the only British weird bit of territory that was in the EU, neither Man or the Channel islands are in the EU or EEA.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:52 am

prebennorholm wrote:
586 posts, and we have seen countless advantages for the UK taking back control.


Not sure I have seen a single clear advantage of Brexit yet:

"more trade deals, go global!" they say
No, UK will lose 65 trade deals on Brexit including Japan, Canada and South Korea, and not be able to enjoy new future EU deals being negotiated with countries like USA or Australia

"£350m a week savings going to the NHS" they say
No, net cost of EU membership is c£125m per week,cost of Brexit is already higher than that saving without the full costs of replacing agencies, strengthening borders and economic harm etc

"Stop immigration" they say
UK could have done that whilst in the EU, just like Belgium currently does, requiring immigrants have health insurance and employment

"Regain Control" they say
UK has a sovereign parliament, elected MEPs, UK Also had a veto in the EU enabling it to block any changes it did not want, such as an EU army, we had (currently have) full control - the only part that arguably is not Democratic is the House of Lords which is a UK institution not connected to the EU.

"We do not want to be a Vassal State" they say
UK after Brexit will have to comply with many laws to countries to whom it exports, be it the EU or the USA, making the UK a vassal state to trade, unable to have say in many new laws.

"There are queues in the NHS because of immigrants" they say
Current Immigrants will be able to stay, so demand will not decrease unless people choose to leave. UK will however still need migration for its economy. Meanwhile many EU nationals in employment of NHS are choosing to leave or not come to the UK causing staffing issues. The EU Healthcard system means that unless this negotiated to stay in place will restrict the ability for UK to reclaim medical costs from other EU states for those who receive treatment in the UK, and means that all UK citizens travelling abroad will need travel insurance, which will likely increase in cost through additional coverage required in the EU27 states.

"The economy is being constrained by the EU" they say
No it is not. Up to the referendum in 2016, the UK was one of the most prosperous countries in the developed world and seen by many as a great place to base companies so as to have access to the EU single market - in particular from Japan and the USA. Since the referendum the value of the UK currency has plummeted vs the Euro, and the UK economy is forecast to drop as a consequence of all possible outcomes from Brexit.

"we will get our fishing waters back" they say
Fishing makes up a tiny proportion of the UK economy - less than 0.5% of UK GDP. the fish landed in the UK is however sold back mainly to the EU and other states where there are EU trade deals. Leaving the EU could hurt the export market for UK fish. Some UK fishing rights are also sold off by UK fisherman to other EU countries to raise capital - this could stop after leaving the EU. The processing plants in the UK are also quite dependent on imports and leaving the single market could threaten the processing industry. Any gains in fishing in relationship to the economy are dwarfed by the impact on other areas - such as the loss of passporting to financial services.

"We will get our borders back" they say
However Brexiters apparently do not want a border with Northern Ireland and want technical advancements such as video cameras to monitor imports and exports. A quick look at google maps will show every external land based EU border has parking lots and customs check points for both incoming and outgoing trade. The technology they want does not exist currently on any other border and additional checks and border security will quickly add additional costs to brexit. Meanwhile the ability to do "just in time" stock controls across the borders will become more troublesome, leading to stockpiling of goods, increasing costs for business and impacting the trade of fresh food produce.

"We will get our own better trade deals" they say
We will get some however the terms will be hindered by a) our size, as we will be negotiating from a much smaller base than within the EU, b) time, as we will need to get deals as soon as possible to avoid harm for our economy, thus compromises on the UK side may have to be made, c) laws, the UK will have to ensure certain laws abide by those who we have trade deals with to ensure equivalence. As such many trade deals will likely be delayed or compromised until our trade position with the EU is finalised. The UK will also lose out on the new trade deals that the EU has been negotiating on and that are bought in after the the UK leaves the EU. Meanwhile, the UK cannot implement trade deals until the transition period ends, yet external trade deals the EU negotiates are likely to be continued through transition but are not legally binding. As such through transition external EU trade deals already in place with countries like Japan, South Korea and Canada are not guaranteed, and can be rescinded by those countries at any point through transition - again weakening the UK's negotiating power. The UK economy is heavily focused on services, which are covered by the EU single market but not by other trade deals elsewhere in the world. We are therefore extremely unlikely to be able to replace our services economy within the EU with any new trade deal elsewhere.


And I have not even mentioned negative impacts to our Universities, to Science, Euratom, Freedom of movement, loss of the EMA, environment, pollution, Space, Galileo, Good Friday agreement ....

Where are the advantages again?
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:43 am

Oh dear, how sad.

Image

We all know that the hard remainers will be OUTRAGED that the government has provided incientives yet they are ok with between £125,000,000 and £350,000,000 per week being paid to the EU for them to be able to sell their good to us.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:37 am

sevenair wrote:
Oh dear, how sad.

We all know that the hard remainers will be OUTRAGED that the government has provided incientives yet they are ok with between £125,000,000 and £350,000,000 per week being paid to the EU for them to be able to sell their good to us.


If it was purely a financial thing, sevenair, you should be against the Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:52 am

It's £9,000,000. That's just over 12 hours worth of EU membership fees (based on the most optimistic estimates on what we pay the failing bloc for them to sell their goods to us). Fabulous return on investment I'm sure and securing jobs until 2030.

If remoaners are worried about economic success then they should be happy about this. Instead they ignore and belittle it and await news of job losses then jump up and down with glee.

Sad people. We are leaving the EU no matter how much people whinge. Surely it's in our best interests to make a success of it? It's telling that you would all like to see people out of a job and out on the streets just so that you could say 'I told you so'.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:59 am

Leave the EU, that was your choice. Make it a success! Good luck. But don't claim it will be economically beneficial or you. You will never have a more beneficial economic relationship with the EU then you have now.

£9,000,000 for what and what guarantees did the UK government give if there will be a hard Brexit? Will the eventually import taxes all be paid by the Brittish taxpayer?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2229
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:45 pm

sevenair wrote:
Oh dear, how sad.


PSA calculations would have been thus:

cost of building new Vivaro Van plant in EU27 = A
cost of closing existing Luton Vivaro plant = B

Cost of UK exiting EU = C
Cost of retaining existing Luton Vivaro Plant = D
£9m UK government contribution = E

PSA, have simply calculated that A+B > C+D-E

This is similar to Nissans decision to keep the existing Qashqui production in Sunderland for the time being

The interesting question will be when a new factory is to be built for new production, where you then don't have the existing infrastructure in the equation, the UK government subsidy will have to be much larger (at cost to the tax payer) than it is today to offset costs of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.

Of course, alternatively, PSA could be making a bet that the UK will not leave the single market & customs union?
 
sevenair
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:52 pm

Or it could be betting that the UK will have a FTA sooner rather than later.

Many thanks to the mods for removing the targeted abuse directed toward me for simply being differently opinionated.
Keep moving the goalposts and you'll never be proven wrong.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2229
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:53 pm

sevenair wrote:
It's £9,000,000. That's just over 12 hours worth of EU membership fees (based on the most optimistic estimates on what we pay the failing bloc for them to sell their goods to us). Fabulous return on investment I'm sure and securing jobs until 2030.


Good to see you're going with the £125m net cost rather than the Brexit Lie Bus figure sevenair!

sevenair wrote:
If remoaners are worried about economic success then they should be happy about this.


Yes I am! but what is the full cost - what are the T&C's the UK government have agreed to behind closed doors? full disclosure is always welcome before being finite on these things.

sevenair wrote:
Instead they ignore and belittle it and await news of job losses then jump up and down with glee.


Where and when has anyone ignored or belittled this? gosh you are an angry person sevenair! such assumptions you make! I am OUTRAGED!

sevenair wrote:
Sad people. We are leaving the EU no matter how much people whinge. Surely it's in our best interests to make a success of it? It's telling that you would all like to see people out of a job and out on the streets just so that you could say 'I told you so'.


who said they would like to see people out of a job sevenair, you do make up accusations as you go along - GOLLY GOSH!
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2229
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:07 pm

sevenair wrote:
Or it could be betting that the UK will have a FTA sooner rather than later.


the FTA option still comes at a cost to PSA though, compared to that of Single Market & Customs Union membership, so still a cost in the equation.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:13 pm

Let's see. Opel/Vauxhall was acquired by PSA. Opel/Vauxhall had a jointly developed van with Renault, which they made in Luton mostly for the British market (also for Ireland and Cyprus).

Vauxhall is going to make PSA-sourced RHD vans in Luton, exactly like they used to make before using Renault bits and bagging a bit of British taxpayer money in the process.

So the good news is that things will remain the same after a French company lines their pockets with a few millions of British taxpayer money? The bar gets lower and lower.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8152
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:42 pm

Richard28 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Oh dear, how sad.


PSA calculations would have been thus:

cost of building new Vivaro Van plant in EU27 = A
cost of closing existing Luton Vivaro plant = B

Cost of UK exiting EU = C
Cost of retaining existing Luton Vivaro Plant = D
£9m UK government contribution = E

PSA, have simply calculated that A+B > C+D-E


...plus expecting to safe on wages, the UK becoming Europe´s Mexico, dropping by way of dropping pound, plus a good dose of "no-risk" with May promissing that the UK Taxpayer will shell out the money for whatever ill effect Brexit will have on their profits.

Hard for a company to say "no" if a government is willing to cover basically all relevant risks.

best regards
Thomas
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