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FabDiva
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:42 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:07 pm

seahawk wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
"Compromise" and "raising questions" - all fair and good. Cancelling Brexit and overturning the vote is neither of those things.


There is no compromise in Brexit. Out means out - and that means fully and completely out and free.


Ok so what next? If there is no compromising how is the UK to sign new deals? How about new treaties? If we are not going to compromise in a deal with the EU, then how will a hard line work with current America First policies for the USA? If reports are to be believed the US wants concessions in a future US-UK air traffic treaty to replace the current EU-US one, that doesn't bode well for future deals.

Should the conservative hard liners take us down the the tax haven route? What measures should be taken to cushion the impact on businesses that currently trade heavily with the EU? How can the Irish border issue be sorted while respecting the GFA and WTO obligations?

Lots of work for leave to do, and some tough decisions ahead ;)
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:12 pm

aviationaware wrote:

Funny you should mention that, because your antidemocratic neo-fascist agenda bears a lot of resemblance to the Zeitgeist of the 30s.


"Neo-fascist"? That's new. Explain.

Remind me again: who were the anti-establishment/anti-civil service folk in the 1930s? Who used to go around calling state institutions that opposed them "enemies of the people"?

Because Brexiteers sure have a tendency to use that type of language. All of the institutions that have historically been given the responsibility for safeguarding Britain and upholding the constitution - the Civil Service, House of Lords, MPs, the independent judiciary - are constantly under attack by Brexiteers.

The majority made a decision. That does not, in and of itself, make the decision a good one. Majorities have been known to make bad decisions too - they've been on the wrong side of a lot of decisions about various minorities' rights in the past (racism, LGBT etc).

The ugly truth here is that the state is responsible for protecting the well-being of all of its citizens, even if that occasionally means not enforcing the will of the majority.
 
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Channex757
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:21 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Meanwhile at the remain camp, we were sold all the costs and none of the benefits.


If I may.
You already made that argument, but that´s actually not one. Remain was the baseline, it had nothing to sell, all known.
It´s obviously only the Brexit camp that needs to deliver any kind of project, and still fail to do so.

I miss the user PIHERO, would love to read his contribution on the whole Brexit thing :biggrin:

Exactly. Brexit so far has been an unmitigated fiasco. As per bloody usual, if we fall off the cliff into a hard Brexit situation, those with vast fortunes stand to benefit whilst Mr Britain the working taxpayer with a mortgage and greater percentage of his weekly income spent on life costs, gets the shaft right up his apathetic bugle.

Brexiteers want to stand on the political battlefield declaring "We won!" as Britain crashes out of the EU, and then scuttle off behind their barricade of wealth. French passport optional for real hypocrites.

It needs stopping and stopping NOW. Power needs t be wrenched from the likes of millionaire Rees-Mogg and the odious, incompetent Davis and Fox clown show.

A new referendum would be the best compromise with the third option Cameron vetoed. A remain and renegotiate option, or even a Norway option if this isn't possible. The binary Yes/No was loaded in favour of the Brexitards as it gave no other choice.
 
Arion640
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:25 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Meanwhile at the remain camp, we were sold all the costs and none of the benefits.


If I may.
You already made that argument, but that´s actually not one. Remain was the baseline, it had nothing to sell, all known.
It´s obviously only the Brexit camp that needs to deliver any kind of project, and still fail to do so.

I miss the user PIHERO, would love to read his contribution on the whole Brexit thing :biggrin:


So you find chatting absolute lies about doomsday acceptable?
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:37 pm

Arion640 wrote:

So you find chatting absolute lies about doomsday acceptable?


So you find chatting absolute lies about (Goldman Sachs saying Brexit is a good idea) acceptable?
 
Arion640
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:40 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

So you find chatting absolute lies about doomsday acceptable?


So you find chatting absolute lies about (Goldman Sachs saying Brexit is a good idea) acceptable?


Not the point. I'm not a nationwide campaign that used public money to promote its views.

I'm just one person on a forum. Two completely different things. I can't take anything you say as credible if you can't work out the difference.
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Tell that to the Norwegians, Canadians, Swiss or a number of other countries whom did like to have such a partnership.


That is the point, they like to have a partnership - the British not so much.


A soft Brexit = partnership......... the only question is what the Brits want with this.


You still think it s a question? The negotiations have answered that. It is best fpr both to end the relationship fully and clearly.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:45 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

So you find chatting absolute lies about doomsday acceptable?


So you find chatting absolute lies about (Goldman Sachs saying Brexit is a good idea) acceptable?


Not the point. I'm not a nationwide campaign that used public money to promote its views.

I'm just one person on a forum. Two completely different things. I can't take anything you say as credible if you can't work out the difference.


So it's okay for non-publicly funded individuals to lie in order to promote their views?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:51 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:

That is the point, they like to have a partnership - the British not so much.


A soft Brexit = partnership......... the only question is what the Brits want with this.


You still think it s a question? The negotiations have answered that. It is best fpr both to end the relationship fully and clearly.


Well, yes and no.

It's best in some ways to keep the relationship going (hence the transition agreements).

On the other hand, a hard Brexit will make it pretty clear who was right and who was wrong, and presumably the vanquished (whoever that may be) will accept defeat. A fudge will just extend current acrimony.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2020
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:18 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
"Neo-fascist"? That's new. Explain.


The EU is the new fascism. Being pro-EU is thus neo-fascist. It's not all that difficult. EU means unaccountable power without limits and I am not a fan of it. Just look at who's at the helm of it. Some of the commission members have even been members of the Supreme Soviet back in the day. No thank you!
I admire the British for having said no. The path the EU has taken since the early 90s is dangerous and antidemocratic. Europe does not need that.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2352
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:37 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The EU is the new fascism. Being pro-EU is thus neo-fascist. It's not all that difficult. EU means unaccountable power without limits and I am not a fan of it. Just look at who's at the helm of it. Some of the commission members have even been members of the Supreme Soviet back in the day. No thank you!
I admire the British for having said no. The path the EU has taken since the early 90s is dangerous and antidemocratic. Europe does not need that.


WTF?

This single post demonstrates your lack of knowledge in history, politics, the English Language and the functioning of the European Union.


Wow.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6115
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:29 pm

Richard28 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The EU is the new fascism. Being pro-EU is thus neo-fascist. It's not all that difficult. EU means unaccountable power without limits and I am not a fan of it. Just look at who's at the helm of it. Some of the commission members have even been members of the Supreme Soviet back in the day. No thank you!
I admire the British for having said no. The path the EU has taken since the early 90s is dangerous and antidemocratic. Europe does not need that.


WTF?

This single post demonstrates your lack of knowledge in history, politics, the English Language and the functioning of the European Union.


Wow.


Of course, you are right, but many have framed the EU as that, including many many politicians: we need to do this from Brussels, the truth is the real power lies with the council of heads of states. And every head of state is controlled by a democratically elected parliament, so the ultimate power lies with parliament as it should be. Ironically, the voted down Lisbon treaty would have made the EU more democratic.

As for the EU being the new fascism, that is just laughable and indeed shows are astonishing lack of historical context. EU unaccountable is just as laughable. This intrigues me: whom of the of the current commission members has been a member of the Supreme Soviet? He must have been extremely young since the USSR hasn't been around for 30 odd years. And the commission has to be approved by the elected EU parliament and a commissioner has to be put forward by his national government, which has been democratically controlled.

Europe needs the EU, because each individual country is too small to have a say in the globalized world. Since 1945 there hasn't been a war between its members, And I guess that is the first time since before Roman times, over 2.000 years ago. The EU has its flaws, certainly, but if the EU wasn't around, we needed to invent it. So let's fix it, instead of demolish it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:46 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

So you find chatting absolute lies about (Goldman Sachs saying Brexit is a good idea) acceptable?


Not the point. I'm not a nationwide campaign that used public money to promote its views.

I'm just one person on a forum. Two completely different things. I can't take anything you say as credible if you can't work out the difference.


So it's okay for non-publicly funded individuals to lie in order to promote their views?


You would make a good politician as you seem to keep dodging the point.

No, but like I said before i'm just one person on a forum not displaying my reap name with no influence what so ever...
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Arion640
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:46 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

So you find chatting absolute lies about (Goldman Sachs saying Brexit is a good idea) acceptable?


Not the point. I'm not a nationwide campaign that used public money to promote its views.

I'm just one person on a forum. Two completely different things. I can't take anything you say as credible if you can't work out the difference.


So it's okay for non-publicly funded individuals to lie in order to promote their views?


You would make a good politician as you seem to keep dodging the point.

No, but like I said before i'm just one person on a forum not displaying my real name with no influence what so ever...
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6757
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:49 am

FabDiva wrote:
Ok so what next? If there is no compromising how is the UK to sign new deals? How about new treaties? If we are not going to compromise in a deal with the EU, then how will a hard line work with current America First policies for the USA? If reports are to be believed the US wants concessions in a future US-UK air traffic treaty to replace the current EU-US one, that doesn't bode well for future deals.

Should the conservative hard liners take us down the the tax haven route? What measures should be taken to cushion the impact on businesses that currently trade heavily with the EU? How can the Irish border issue be sorted while respecting the GFA and WTO obligations?

Lots of work for leave to do, and some tough decisions ahead ;)

That was a lot of questions, dear FabDiva. Eight questions in total. But so far no forum user has done an attempt to answer even one of them. Neither am I going to do so.

But don't you think it is a little late to ask those questions? They should have been asked and answered at least two and a half years ago.

Now the train has left the station. It has cleared the platform, just barely. The original train driver has jumped the train, and the replacement driver hasn't got a clue how to operate the handles. She has pulled the emergency brake a couple of times because she fears the cliff aheard. At one occation she got a DUPlicate train driver on board who doesn't really talk the same language, not really relevant since she - the DUPlicate - refuses to learn about the loc handles.

They will of course both jump the train before it gets out of the city. They are just looking ahead for a soft ditch for their jump. Nobody wants to occupy the driver's seat when the train derails.

Since noone knows when they jump, and who will be the replacement train driver, then it is not possible to answer any of your questions.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6757
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:27 am

FabDiva wrote:
And of course the politicians need to think about the long term impacts, not just that of the next election.

WHAT??? Did you read yourself what you just wrote? You can't be serious.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2020
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
This intrigues me: whom of the of the current commission members has been a member of the Supreme Soviet?


Meet Siim Kallas from Estonia, commissioner from 2004 to 2014 and member of the Supreme Soviet from 1989 to 1991 after having been a communist apparatchik for 20 years. He is now so disgraced that he had to take a job as a small town mayor; though of course knowing Mr. Schulz that does not preclude you from higher EU office even if it is your only real job experience.

Mr. Kallas of course was in charge of anti-fraud measures in the EU, which is quite ironic when you consider that as head of the Bank of Estonia he embezzled funds and defrauded the people of Estonia in a dubious scheme where the bank put up collateral but the dividends were paid to third parties.

Now you may ask why that is relevant considering he is not a commissioner anymore. Well, it is highly relevant, because the system has not been reformed since and any system in which such a petty crook can rise to the (almost) top is completely and irretrievably broken.
 
Dogman
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:54 am

Richard28 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The EU is the new fascism. Being pro-EU is thus neo-fascist. It's not all that difficult. EU means unaccountable power without limits and I am not a fan of it. Just look at who's at the helm of it. Some of the commission members have even been members of the Supreme Soviet back in the day. No thank you!
I admire the British for having said no. The path the EU has taken since the early 90s is dangerous and antidemocratic. Europe does not need that.


WTF?

This single post demonstrates your lack of knowledge in history, politics, the English Language and the functioning of the European Union.


Wow.


Probably just a Russian troll. That's their favourite technique - accuse everything and everyone they are against to be fascists. Don't think he does not understand what he is doing, it's all deliberate.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 7155
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:04 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This intrigues me: whom of the of the current commission members has been a member of the Supreme Soviet?


Meet Siim Kallas from Estonia, commissioner from 2004 to 2014 and member of the Supreme Soviet from 1989 to 1991 after having been a communist apparatchik for 20 years. He is now so disgraced that he had to take a job as a small town mayor; though of course knowing Mr. Schulz that does not preclude you from higher EU office even if it is your only real job experience.

Mr. Kallas of course was in charge of anti-fraud measures in the EU, which is quite ironic when you consider that as head of the Bank of Estonia he embezzled funds and defrauded the people of Estonia in a dubious scheme where the bank put up collateral but the dividends were paid to third parties.

Now you may ask why that is relevant considering he is not a commissioner anymore. Well, it is highly relevant, because the system has not been reformed since and any system in which such a petty crook can rise to the (almost) top is completely and irretrievably broken.


You can add Merkel, who was also a textbook communist and member of the SED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RjUJy7kDOM

Even a few brave members of the EU parliament have spoken openly about the EU being the new Communism.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6115
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:46 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This intrigues me: whom of the of the current commission members has been a member of the Supreme Soviet?


Meet Siim Kallas from Estonia, commissioner from 2004 to 2014 and member of the Supreme Soviet from 1989 to 1991 after having been a communist apparatchik for 20 years. He is now so disgraced that he had to take a job as a small town mayor; though of course knowing Mr. Schulz that does not preclude you from higher EU office even if it is your only real job experience.

Mr. Kallas of course was in charge of anti-fraud measures in the EU, which is quite ironic when you consider that as head of the Bank of Estonia he embezzled funds and defrauded the people of Estonia in a dubious scheme where the bank put up collateral but the dividends were paid to third parties.

Now you may ask why that is relevant considering he is not a commissioner anymore. Well, it is highly relevant, because the system has not been reformed since and any system in which such a petty crook can rise to the (almost) top is completely and irretrievably broken.


Ok, still all democratically accountable. Would you like to have a system where some bureaucrat decides whom is going to be commissioner and whom not?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8425
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:03 am

Arion640 wrote:
Immigrant overload is not a perception, it's an observation. Free movement is a massive part of the European Unions laws so I find it amazing how you can say that. Etheir you're pig ignorant or you just don't have a clue.


My memory my serve me badly, but I seem to remember that the UK is letting more Non-EU people immigrate than any other EU state, so the underlying argument isn't even valid, because the UK can reduce that unilaterally at any time.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
Posts: 2946
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:10 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This intrigues me: whom of the of the current commission members has been a member of the Supreme Soviet?


Meet Siim Kallas from Estonia, commissioner from 2004 to 2014 and member of the Supreme Soviet from 1989 to 1991 after having been a communist apparatchik for 20 years. He is now so disgraced that he had to take a job as a small town mayor; though of course knowing Mr. Schulz that does not preclude you from higher EU office even if it is your only real job experience.

Mr. Kallas of course was in charge of anti-fraud measures in the EU, which is quite ironic when you consider that as head of the Bank of Estonia he embezzled funds and defrauded the people of Estonia in a dubious scheme where the bank put up collateral but the dividends were paid to third parties.

Now you may ask why that is relevant considering he is not a commissioner anymore. Well, it is highly relevant, because the system has not been reformed since and any system in which such a petty crook can rise to the (almost) top is completely and irretrievably broken.


Why would you prevent someone who was elected as prime minister in his country from taking a posting as Commissioner? From an economic liberal centre-right party, no less (and buddies with a certain Mr. Cameron).

Democracy, you know.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2020
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:35 am

JJJ wrote:

Why would you prevent someone who was elected as prime minister in his country from taking a posting as Commissioner?


Let me rephrase that question:

Why would you prevent someone who has embezzled and defrauded his people from being put in charge of the anti fraud drive of your organziation.

I hope now you see how incredibly stupid his appointment was.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2581
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:46 am

Dogman wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The EU is the new fascism. Being pro-EU is thus neo-fascist. It's not all that difficult. EU means unaccountable power without limits and I am not a fan of it. Just look at who's at the helm of it. Some of the commission members have even been members of the Supreme Soviet back in the day. No thank you!
I admire the British for having said no. The path the EU has taken since the early 90s is dangerous and antidemocratic. Europe does not need that.


WTF?

This single post demonstrates your lack of knowledge in history, politics, the English Language and the functioning of the European Union.


Wow.


Probably just a Russian troll. That's their favourite technique - accuse everything and everyone they are against to be fascists. Don't think he does not understand what he is doing, it's all deliberate.


And that's different to remain ultras accusing leavers of all being racist how exactly?
It's time to take back control. No matter how hard you try to stop it, THE UK IS LEAVING THE EU Move on and accept. We will not allow you to stop it.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2946
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:49 am

aviationaware wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Why would you prevent someone who was elected as prime minister in his country from taking a posting as Commissioner?


Let me rephrase that question:

Why would you prevent someone who has embezzled and defrauded his people from being put in charge of the anti fraud drive of your organziation.

I hope now you see how incredibly stupid his appointment was.


I think you will find out that he was acquitted from all charges, and then went on to be a minister and then elected PM of his country.

Who's the EU to tell the Estonians who should and shoud not elect?
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2020
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:53 am

The Estonians can elect whoever they want to lead them. But don't push them on the peoples of Europe if they are crooks.
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:12 am

aviationaware wrote:
The Estonians can elect whoever they want to lead them. But don't push them on the peoples of Europe if they are crooks.


Individual EU governments propose their candidate to Commissioner.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2352
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:27 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Immigrant overload is not a perception, it's an observation. Free movement is a massive part of the European Unions laws so I find it amazing how you can say that. Etheir you're pig ignorant or you just don't have a clue.


My memory my serve me badly, but I seem to remember that the UK is letting more Non-EU people immigrate than any other EU state, so the underlying argument isn't even valid, because the UK can reduce that unilaterally at any time.

Best regards
Thomas


You are correct Thomas

Below is the data from the Office of National Statistics.

The long term trend in Non EU net migration to the UK has been much higher than the EU migration (currently over double in fact).

Image

The EU migration story is a big red herring to simply stir up emotion - especially true when you consider how other EU states deal with immigration under the EU framework, which the UK could have done but chose not to,e.g. Belgium:

    * If you envisage staying longer than three months, you must register with the Belgian authorities and provide evidence that you can support yourself financially and have adequate health insurance.

https://www.expatica.com/be/visas-and-p ... 43311.html
 
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seahawk
Posts: 7155
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:30 am

This graph shows the positive effect of the Brexit. Once it was clear that Britain takes back control, numbers of EU immigrants drop off sharply. That is success.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2352
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:07 am

seahawk wrote:
This graph shows the positive effect of the Brexit. Once it was clear that Britain takes back control, numbers of EU immigrants drop off sharply. That is success.


And yet nearly two years after the referendum the UK government have still not decided on an immigration policy. Have you ever stepped back and wondered why?
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2020
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:25 am

Partly because the anti-democratic Lords are working hard to prevent it.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:07 am

aviationaware wrote:
Partly because the anti-democratic Lords are working hard to prevent it.


1) the Lords put suggested amendments to new government legislation back to the elected MPs to consider and vote on. It is our MP's who have complete say over law and policy, not the Lords
2) No immigration legislation has been decided upon by the Conservatives, so how can it have even be put to the Lords, let alone be prevented by them?
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:04 pm

Image
Image

It seems a restricted EEA membership is the preferred outcome to a larger majority of Brits.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:08 pm

Richard28 wrote:
The UK on the other hand is still having internal battles over this and a white paper may finally be ready only in two weeks time - a rush to get something intime for the European Council meeting on 28/29 June. But even here it is not clear the Prime Minister will get agreement on the white paper from her cabinet and/or back benches.


The Independent is now reporting that through more infighting in the cabinet, this promised white paper will now unlikely be ready for the end of June, meaning all key decisions with the EU will be pushed back to the October European meeting.

One European envoy is quoted as saying he expects "little meaningful progress" from the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 82626.html

Seriously, this stuff should have been agreed before article 50 was even submitted. It can't go on like this?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8425
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:38 pm

JJJ wrote:
It seems a restricted EEA membership is the preferred outcome to a larger majority of Brits.


But I don't think it is possible, because that is practically the UK getting 3 of the 4 pillars (although one is not mentioned anywhere), I.e. cherry picking. Same for option three.

Services and freedom of movement seem to be connected quite hard. I think just 1, 4 (maybe), 5 & 6 are possible.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
Posts: 10313
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Meanwhile Mr Rees-Mogg is in the Daily Express (theres a clue) today saying how the Swiss border model is a solution that can work for Northern Ireland as it is a frictionless frontier.

Conveniently ignoring how there are custom check points at the Swiss/French border (so goodbye Good Friday agreement)

https://goo.gl/maps/SBmsv3XniUG2

The border is not totally frictionless

And also of course ignoring that Switzerland is in the Single Market therefore allows free movement of people and is also in the Schengen area.

Seriously, why do people listen to this man/newspaper, they have not got a clue of the realities.....


The other day on the news a new type of contraband coming from Switzerland was being talked about, aside from the usual chocolate, booze and fags : garbage. It is becoming more and more common for towns/communities in Switzerland to force people to use expensive garbage bags that pay for the garbage service, something like 2€ for a 35l bag. Consequently many Swiss citizens carry their garbage through the border and dump it in France. They were showing a woman stopped at the border with 3 bags in the trunk : 150€ fine.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Arion640
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm

JJJ wrote:
Image
Image

It seems a restricted EEA membership is the preferred outcome to a larger majority of Brits.


One of the best things i've ever seen on this thread. Thanks for sharing.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
The UK on the other hand is still having internal battles over this and a white paper may finally be ready only in two weeks time - a rush to get something intime for the European Council meeting on 28/29 June. But even here it is not clear the Prime Minister will get agreement on the white paper from her cabinet and/or back benches.


The Independent is now reporting that through more infighting in the cabinet, this promised white paper will now unlikely be ready for the end of June, meaning all key decisions with the EU will be pushed back to the October European meeting.

One European envoy is quoted as saying he expects "little meaningful progress" from the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 82626.html

Seriously, this stuff should have been agreed before article 50 was even submitted. It can't go on like this?


Probably doesn't help the Government too much when their donors start coming out saying May should be replaced with Michael Gove, the guy who got chucked out of government a few years ago and managed to weasel his way back in.

I think May is in an incredibly difficult position. I think she knows full well what a Hard Brexit would do to the country and cannot be implemented. At the same time she has some prominent cabinet members (who should be nowhere near cabinet really) leavers constantly saying they will only accept a hard Brexit. Which is why it's all such a farce and taking so long to come up with any sensible proposals - because nobody can agree!! If only there was a proper opposition.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:40 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not the point. I'm not a nationwide campaign that used public money to promote its views.

I'm just one person on a forum. Two completely different things. I can't take anything you say as credible if you can't work out the difference.


So it's okay for non-publicly funded individuals to lie in order to promote their views?


You would make a good politician as you seem to keep dodging the point.

No, but like I said before i'm just one person on a forum not displaying my reap name with no influence what so ever...


I think you'll find that the motive and intent are the point.

1 person telling a 100,000 people a lie is no less/more effective than a 100,000 people telling another 100,000 people a lie.

Anyway, there's some rather interesting polls about pride in being "English", whatever that means. Seems the youngsters aren't too keen on it. I wonder how much these findings reflect the Brexit divide.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-44142843

I expect the Brexit 'liberals' will soon find that provincial folk don't give a damn about their "Global" Britain project. Reading the responses about what makes people "English" reveals a lot about how they view immigrants. Let's just say it doesn't fit well with Boris' liberal Brexit.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10313
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:36 am

Immigration is indeed a main subject at the moment, for example in Italy the new government will probably not be able to apply most of its platform, but I'm sure they'll at least try to send back more refugees.

However in second there is the sentiment for many across the world that they're losing out, that globalization is not good for them. Many of them in the UK have voted for Brexit, believing that the EU is responsible for their situation, when in fact it's their own government that has been all about economic liberalism for decades, and successfully derailed the EU towards that direction.

If the UK government gives up controlling immigration (do they even control immigration from former colonies ?) in favor of free trade and other liberal trigger words, it will be a double whammy for those Brexiters.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Arion640
Posts: 1722
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:47 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

So it's okay for non-publicly funded individuals to lie in order to promote their views?


You would make a good politician as you seem to keep dodging the point.

No, but like I said before i'm just one person on a forum not displaying my reap name with no influence what so ever...


Anyway, there's some rather interesting polls about pride in being "English", whatever that means. Seems the youngsters aren't too keen on it. I wonder how much these findings reflect the Brexit divide.



Since i'm not English, i can't say this applies to me.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
JJJ
Posts: 2946
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:06 am

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It seems a restricted EEA membership is the preferred outcome to a larger majority of Brits.


But I don't think it is possible, because that is practically the UK getting 3 of the 4 pillars (although one is not mentioned anywhere), I.e. cherry picking. Same for option three.

Services and freedom of movement seem to be connected quite hard. I think just 1, 4 (maybe), 5 & 6 are possible.

Best regards
Thomas


Exactly.

I'm quite sure the end solution will be 1, with a few buzzwords to appease the extremist brexiteers like "there will be a mechanism to kick out the benefit moochers" (the same perfectly legal mechanism other countries in the EU use).
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2352
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:23 pm

A new YouGov poll out today show:

  • 62% are unhappy with the government handling of Brexit
  • 9% of leave voters now think leaving is the wrong decission
  • 40% of UK public back Brexit (lowest level recorded)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 83826.html

It would seem that based on what we now know today a http://www.peoples-vote.uk (if the public are allowed their say) will give a very different outcome
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:27 pm

Next week will be very interesting. See if Labour have some guts and don't let the Tory's push it through ignoring all the suggested amendments from the Lords. I hope and pray they finally do.
 
CCGPV
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:43 pm

Richard28 wrote:
A new YouGov poll out today show:

  • 62% are unhappy with the government handling of Brexit
  • 9% of leave voters now think leaving is the wrong decission
  • 40% of UK public back Brexit (lowest level recorded)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 83826.html

It would seem that based on what we now know today a http://www.peoples-vote.uk (if the public are allowed their say) will give a very different outcome


The people were allowed to have their say. They voted to leave.

Just because some people were upset at the outcome you don't get a do-over because "it was a mistake." Why not apply that to every election? "Nah, we didn't like that outcome so lets have another go."

Scary.
Stay curious
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7155
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Despite the media onslaught 40% of the Britain still desire freedom. That should be the headline. The UK was saved by a few hundred pilots during the battle of Britain and that is the same. Keeping the Huns out.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8425
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:58 pm

CCGPV wrote:
Why not apply that to every election? "Nah, we didn't like that outcome so lets have another go."


That is exactly what we and any other democries do with elections, that is why they are held in regular intervals. In the UK those happen every 5 years, and between referendum and leaving the EU more than 5 years will have passed. So by that time doing Brexit regardless of what the population wants is about as democratic as cancelling the 2022 general election because people had their vote in 2017.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
CCGPV
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
Why not apply that to every election? "Nah, we didn't like that outcome so lets have another go."


That is exactly what we and any other democries do with elections, that is why they are held in regular intervals. In the UK those happen every 5 years, and between referendum and leaving the EU more than 5 years will have passed. So by that time doing Brexit regardless of what the population wants is about as democratic as cancelling the 2022 general election because people had their vote in 2017.

Best regards
Thomas


Yes having normal elections is fine but the people calling for a "re-do" is dangerous. Delaying the action until the next election is setting a bad precedent too.

Will Brexit be done by 2022?
Stay curious
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2352
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:12 pm

CCGPV wrote:

Yes having normal elections is fine but the people calling for a "re-do" is dangerous. Delaying the action until the next election is setting a bad precedent too.


The biggest danger is not delivering the promises of 2016 and ending up with something very different to what was voted for. Already we see Farage back peddling that Brexit will not in fact be financially beneficial, the £350m on the bus is a lie, and it turns out they don't need us more than we need them.

Democracy does not stand still - a vote on the outcome of negotiations will let the country confirm if this is actually what they want. At least then we can move forward based on facts.

What on earth could be wrong with that?
 
CCGPV
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Richard28 wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Yes having normal elections is fine but the people calling for a "re-do" is dangerous. Delaying the action until the next election is setting a bad precedent too.


The biggest danger is not delivering the promises of 2016 and ending up with something very different to what was voted for. Already we see Farage back peddling that Brexit will not in fact be financially beneficial, the £350m on the bus is a lie, and it turns out they don't need us more than we need them.

Democracy does not stand still - a vote on the outcome of negotiations will let the country confirm if this is actually what they want. At least then we can move forward based on facts.

What on earth could be wrong with that?


What I worry about is why this one? I don't recall the British ever demanding a re-do for any other election. Why this one time are we talking about a re-do? I get that its important but so are all elections. Is not setting a precedence of redoing an unpopular election a bad thing? It seems like there's a lot of people trying to stop Brexit because its just not what they want even though the majority voted for it after a long campaign.

Am I overthinking this?
Stay curious

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