Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:01 pm

FabDiva wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)


Regardless of that. The Welsh Gov still couldn't bail them out for what I said above.
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:04 pm

Richard28 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think he and Boris would make a fantastic deal, the best deal every made.


Well for a start its Liam Fox not Boris who will attempt trade deals.

And this is Liam who has pleaded with the US not to impose these tariffs and failed, yet now we believe he will get a generous trade deal?

So much at stake yet we still journey down this perilous road...


I was envisioning Boris as PM.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1592
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm

Arion640 wrote:
FabDiva wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)


Regardless of that. The Welsh Gov still couldn't bail them out for what I said above.


Do you think the US would permit a subsidized company to export steel to them?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:45 pm

seahawk wrote:
I was envisioning Boris as PM.


You need a new crystal ball, yours is broken.

BoJo as PM is a ship that sailed shortly after Cameron resigned and back-stabber Gove did his thing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:19 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
FabDiva wrote:

There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)


Regardless of that. The Welsh Gov still couldn't bail them out for what I said above.


Do you think the US would permit a subsidized company to export steel to them?


Not the point. Thousands of jobs and livelihoods were at risk.
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ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:04 pm

Arion640 wrote:

Not the point. Thousands of jobs and livelihoods were at risk.


And your great hope has put many thousands more at risk.

What's the game plan anyway? Move away from a relatively restrictive trade deal with the EU (insofar as it is anti-subsidy), to a trade deal with a country that is throwing its closest allies under the bus?

Remember - if he is this harsh with Canada despite the very strong trade ties Canada has with individual US states, not to mention the NORAD angle, he's going to be brutal with the UK. The closer you get to a hard Brexit, the easier it is for him to capitalize on your desperation for a trade deal.

Good luck.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:06 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Do you think the US would permit a subsidized company to export steel to them?


Not the point. Thousands of jobs and livelihoods were at risk.


No, it's exactly the point.

What would be the point of Brexit then nationalisation of steel if this then blocked trade deals? The UK would be left with the square root of bugger all, other than some happy steel workers at the UK taxpayers expense.

its not rocket science....
 
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Channex757
Posts: 1948
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I was envisioning Boris as PM.


You need a new crystal ball, yours is broken.

BoJo as PM is a ship that sailed shortly after Cameron resigned and back-stabber Gove did his thing.

I pray every night that Theresa May grows a spine and has a Night of the Long Knives.

Every Brexiteer sacked from Government posts.

We could then have a Grand Coalition, a Government of National Unity. This could then ram through a bill stating that Brexit is too difficult, too dangerous to businesses and would cost far too many jobs.

May could easily assemble enough votes to push it through. It would mean she loses her leadership post at the next Election but stopping Brexit would be her legacy.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:17 am

Arion640 wrote:
FabDiva wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)


Regardless of that. The Welsh Gov still couldn't bail them out for what I said above.


Did you miss my reply? The Welsh govt had the mechanisms for it, but chose not to (too expensive)

Oh, and the latest flip-flip from Brexiteer-in-chief Farage

"I never said it would be beneficial to leave"
 
Jetty
Posts: 551
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:12 am

Channex757 wrote:
I pray every night that Theresa May grows a spine and has a Night of the Long Knives.

Every Brexiteer sacked from Government posts.

We could then have a Grand Coalition, a Government of National Unity.

Theresa May and Diane Abbott in one government :eek: That might even be worse than Brexit.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:36 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Do you think the US would permit a subsidized company to export steel to them?


Not the point. Thousands of jobs and livelihoods were at risk.


No, it's exactly the point.

What would be the point of Brexit then nationalisation of steel if this then blocked trade deals? The UK would be left with the square root of bugger all, other than some happy steel workers at the UK taxpayers expense.

its not rocket science....


There's also a rule that the Welsh gov cant select Welsh steel for a project. Has to be the cheapest which is usually foreign.
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:56 pm

Arion640 wrote:
There's also a rule that the Welsh gov cant select Welsh steel for a project. Has to be the cheapest which is usually foreign.


It's misleading to say there's a rule that they can't select Welsh steel. There is no such rule.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:38 pm

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
There's also a rule that the Welsh gov cant select Welsh steel for a project. Has to be the cheapest which is usually foreign.


It's misleading to say there's a rule that they can't select Welsh steel. There is no such rule.


Definitely heard this, will come back to you at a later date with evidence.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
FabDiva wrote:

There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)


Regardless of that. The Welsh Gov still couldn't bail them out for what I said above.


Did you miss my reply? The Welsh govt had the mechanisms for it, but chose not to (too expensive)

Oh, and the latest flip-flip from Brexiteer-in-chief Farage

"I never said it would be beneficial to leave"


Did the Welsh government really have the mechanism for it?

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry"

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2016/01/shou ... elsh-steel
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LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:57 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Did the Welsh government really have the mechanism for it?

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry"

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2016/01/shou ... elsh-steel


A government doesn't always have to go to the lowest bidder if the tender is a "beauty contest". However, you're correct that in a public tender the government needs to pick the best company and cannot use location of one of the bidders into consideration. Then again, why pay more for the same or better product if you're spending public funds? As for subsidising factories, that's indeed illegal under EU law, but why would Brexit improve that? Any trade agreement will most likely contain rules about these kind of things as well (especially when you want a free trade agreement). Thus Brexit doesn't add value for this issue/
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:00 pm

LJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Did the Welsh government really have the mechanism for it?

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry"

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2016/01/shou ... elsh-steel


A government doesn't always have to go to the lowest bidder if the tender is a "beauty contest". However, you're correct that in a public tender the government needs to pick the best company and cannot use location of one of the bidders into consideration. Then again, why pay more for the same or better product if you're spending public funds? As for subsidising factories, that's indeed illegal under EU law, but why would Brexit improve that? Any trade agreement will most likely contain rules about these kind of things as well (especially when you want a free trade agreement). Thus Brexit doesn't add value for this issue/


It would be a lot more beneficial for the Welsh Government to buy steel from it's local producer because of the multiplier effects created and preventing long term knock on effects. For example the steel works shutting down would also cause the 3rd party support businesses to close also (Catering, security etc). Helps prevent an unemployment crisis in a community so dependent on one industry i.e port talbot town. Bottom line being you're not helping the Welsh/British economy by buying Chinese steel. It's industry's like steel who add value to goods and involve highly skilled workers that bring in the tax revenue, so need the full backing of our population and government.

The EU also doesn't have a free trade agreement with any major steel producing countries like China or the US. So not sure what would change for the UK in that respect.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
News in that arch Brexiter Nigel Lawson has applied for French residency.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... vote-leave

Ask yourself Brexit voters, why is someone who has helped convince you to vote against your rights to live and retire in the EU decided to do just that 10 months before Brexit?

Are you feeling like you’ve been mugged off? You should...

#couldnotmakethisstuffup


So because 1 person has applied for French citizenship we must reverse brexit. Good for him, hope he has a pleasant time.


For many sound economic reasons Brexit should be reversed, this is just some hilarious cream on the remain cake.

Do you think Nigel Lawson has been lying about Brexit to you, and if so to you feel deceived? Or is he simply a hypocrite?


Nope not decieved at all. I stated on this thread ages ago my decision to vote brexit (along with quite a few people i know, but not all) was made up before David Cameron announced there would be a vote.

Obviously there must be something wrong with the EU if so many people want to leave. But of course, it is perfect in a lot of peoples eyes. My area voted to leave, my UK country also voted to leave. People are sick of the mass immigration. People are sick of the nonsense rules.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:29 pm

Arion640 wrote:
People are sick of the nonsense rules.


2 questions:

1) Which "nonsense rule" do you not like?
2) Are you happy at a cost of up to £1.25 billion a week to get rid of that "nonsense rule"?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:12 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
People are sick of the nonsense rules.


2 questions:

1) Which "nonsense rule" do you not like?
2) Are you happy at a cost of up to £1.25 billion a week to get rid of that "nonsense rule"?


1) Well I suppose mass immigration qualifies under that. The steel subsidy debate above is another example.

2) Can we provide any proof that's actually going to be the cost? I'm talking Proof now and not a prediction from a bank in an article from the Guardian.

It's Sunday tomorrow and I'm now back in the UK. There may be a delay in my response. I'd like to let those know who accused me of being up in the early hours of the morning and therefore i was a bit strange.
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:09 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Regardless of that. The Welsh Gov still couldn't bail them out for what I said above.


Did you miss my reply? The Welsh govt had the mechanisms for it, but chose not to (too expensive)

Oh, and the latest flip-flip from Brexiteer-in-chief Farage

"I never said it would be beneficial to leave"


Did the Welsh government really have the mechanism for it?

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry"

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2016/01/shou ... elsh-steel


If you're goint to quote, quote the full line:

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry. But the same restraints do not necessarily apply – at least not quite in the same way – if the industry is in state hands. There are EU precedents for temporary nationalisation to save an operation. "

Wales could have stepped in, they chose not to.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:24 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Did you miss my reply? The Welsh govt had the mechanisms for it, but chose not to (too expensive)

Oh, and the latest flip-flip from Brexiteer-in-chief Farage

"I never said it would be beneficial to leave"


Did the Welsh government really have the mechanism for it?

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry"

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2016/01/shou ... elsh-steel


If you're goint to quote, quote the full line:

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry. But the same restraints do not necessarily apply – at least not quite in the same way – if the industry is in state hands. There are EU precedents for temporary nationalisation to save an operation. "

Wales could have stepped in, they chose not to.


Like you just said, if you're going to quote, quote the full line.

"Now the Welsh Government hasn’t got unlimited money and does not know how to run a steel business"

What needs to be taken from this line is the Welsh Government doesn't know how to run a steel business. They didn't want a nationalisation and a change of ownership. A cash investment without exchange of equity.

This would of been blocked.
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sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:27 am

LOL

Image

Oh no! Time to stock up on the Prozac and Xanax ladies. It's going to be awful for you to live through bred it without a little something to get your through it! I wonder if it's the same 'official' who plucked the much debunked £20bn figure out of the air?
It's time to take back control. No matter how hard you try to stop it, THE UK IS LEAVING THE EU Move on and accept. We will not allow you to stop it.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:12 am

Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
People are sick of the nonsense rules.


2 questions:

1) Which "nonsense rule" do you not like?
2) Are you happy at a cost of up to £1.25 billion a week to get rid of that "nonsense rule"?


1) Well I suppose mass immigration qualifies under that. The steel subsidy debate above is another example.

2) Can we provide any proof that's actually going to be the cost? I'm talking Proof now and not a prediction from a bank in an article from the Guardian.


1) that is not a rule/law, that is your perception, so quite different

I ask again, what specific rule do you think is a nonsense rule? To clarify, perhaps you can quote me the law in question as you are asking this of others?

2) The £1.25 billion a week cost is the UK governments own impact assessment based on no deal and reverting to WTO rules. Notice I also said “up to”.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:39 am

TBF it would be stupid not to have plans to deal with the worst case scenario. Especially given the incompetence of the current government.

The Mad Max thing probably comes from David Davis, who previously said the UK won't be plunged into a Mad Max Dystopia - though was that before or after he admitted that his department had done no assessment of the impact of leaving the EU
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:42 am

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Did the Welsh government really have the mechanism for it?

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry"

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2016/01/shou ... elsh-steel


If you're goint to quote, quote the full line:

"Under EU rules, the state is not allowed to subsidise a domestic steel industry. But the same restraints do not necessarily apply – at least not quite in the same way – if the industry is in state hands. There are EU precedents for temporary nationalisation to save an operation. "

Wales could have stepped in, they chose not to.


Like you just said, if you're going to quote, quote the full line.

"Now the Welsh Government hasn’t got unlimited money and does not know how to run a steel business"

What needs to be taken from this line is the Welsh Government doesn't know how to run a steel business. They didn't want a nationalisation and a change of ownership. A cash investment without exchange of equity.

This would of been blocked.


As it would have been blocked if the UK was out of the EU as well. Anyone with a domestic steel industry would have immediately started a WTO action for illegal state aid. How good is a steel plant that can't export anywhere or has the other countries pushing retaliatory tariffs.

This being an aviation forum just give a look to the different Boeing vs Airbus state aid WTO cases.

Dropping cash into a company like that is frowned upon nowadays, and for very good reasons. This isn't the 70s anymore.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:48 am

Channex757 wrote:
I pray every night that Theresa May grows a spine and has a Night of the Long Knives.

Every Brexiteer sacked from Government posts.

We could then have a Grand Coalition, a Government of National Unity. This could then ram through a bill stating that Brexit is too difficult, too dangerous to businesses and would cost far too many jobs.


Well yea! To hell with the democratic vote, right? Wasn't that the power-success plan of the EU in Ireland on the Lisbon treaty? After they voted no, they just had another referendum. And if that had been a resounding no yet again, no problem, they would have had a third.

Democracy is not about voting until the result suits you. Democracy is about voting and then maybe swallowing a bitter pill if the result was not what you had envisioned.

You Remainers disgust me with your disdain for the referendum process. You lost - deal with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that the medieval and antidemocratic Lords were agitating against Brexit all day long.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:41 am

aviationaware wrote:
Democracy is not about voting until the result suits you. Democracy is about voting and then maybe swallowing a bitter pill if the result was not what you had envisioned.

You Remainers disgust me with your disdain for the referendum process. You lost - deal with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that the medieval and antidemocratic Lords were agitating against Brexit all day long.


The leave people promised in the referendum:

- £325 million a week benefit to the NHS

Isn’t gonna happen, it will be a cost of up to £1.25 billion a week

- easy trade deals

Isn’t happening, EU value integrity of SM and no cherry picking

- Single market membership and customs unon were not on the ballot paper and there were mixed messages about outcomes for these after referendum

Therefore the position on UKs view on this is unknown.

- Northern Ireland borders were not deemed to be an issue

But they are and threaten local communities and the Good Friday agreement.

- no mention of loss of EMA, Galileo, science, space agencies and membership of these.



What is undemocratic about having a check point to ensure that the UK is still happy to proceed despite referendum promises being undelivered?

Or are you perhaps scared that the realisation of the mess that Brexit is will now turn voters away?

I would suggest it is undemocratic to sell something in the referendum and then to deliver something very different without a further checkpoint/ people’s vote / referendum.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:41 am

The vote was clear. Out means out.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:31 am

Why are people so afraid of having a final say, based on real outcomes rather than misinformation?
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:35 am

That's not how it works flower. You don't just get another go because it didn't go your way. Then will it be best of three, best of four? The EU has previous when it comes to getting its own way but brexit it one instance where it simply won't. We are leaving the EU. We are leaving the single market. There can be no half in half out. There can be no cherry picking. There can be no second referendum.

As hard as it is for you to accept (two years now) I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that no second referendum will take place. No vote on the deal will take place. There will be no backstop for NI.

We are leaving. Get over it.
It's time to take back control. No matter how hard you try to stop it, THE UK IS LEAVING THE EU Move on and accept. We will not allow you to stop it.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:37 am

Richard28 wrote:
Why are people so afraid of having a final say


The final say was on June 23rd, 2016.

As for "truth" - how about all those doomsday scenarios the Remainers propagated? Spare me. Both sides were equally dishonest. Exit won. Deal with it.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:50 pm

You did win, most of us respect that. Thing is though you won so you need to deal with it. And not just by brushing off people who raise questions about what happens next, and how potential obstacles will be overcome.

With a 52/48 there were always going to be compromise, but as is obvious from the cabinet that even Brexit Voters can't agree on what they want. Some would be happy with EEA or EFTA membership, others would not. Some voted based on immigration, others don't like the EU as a political entity. So which ever Brexit the UK goes for some people on the brexit side are not going to be happy.

There are going to be difficult decisions. Rescinding and Renegotiating many treaties isn't always going to give the result that pleases everyone.

And of course the politicians need to think about the long term impacts, not just that of the next election.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 1955
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:00 pm

"Compromise" and "raising questions" - all fair and good. Cancelling Brexit and overturning the vote is neither of those things.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:13 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I pray every night that Theresa May grows a spine and has a Night of the Long Knives.

Every Brexiteer sacked from Government posts.

We could then have a Grand Coalition, a Government of National Unity. This could then ram through a bill stating that Brexit is too difficult, too dangerous to businesses and would cost far too many jobs.


Well yea! To hell with the democratic vote, right? Wasn't that the power-success plan of the EU in Ireland on the Lisbon treaty? After they voted no, they just had another referendum. And if that had been a resounding no yet again, no problem, they would have had a third.

Democracy is not about voting until the result suits you. Democracy is about voting and then maybe swallowing a bitter pill if the result was not what you had envisioned.

You Remainers disgust me with your disdain for the referendum process. You lost - deal with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that the medieval and antidemocratic Lords were agitating against Brexit all day long.

Disgust? Well suck it up, sistah. I don't care.

I am quite happy to push onwards in order to stop the biggest mistake Britain has made since Neville Chamberlain and appeasement. The referendum was sold to Britain on a tissue of fabrication, and the Remain campaign was, frankly, piss-poor and condescending.

Some of us can see further than next week. There is too much damage waiting down the Brexit yellow brick road so some of us need to act like grown ups and push Dorothy May off it. Even hypocrites like Nigel Lawson are decamping to France, for God's sake!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:29 pm

Government plays down Brexit 'armageddon' fears

Leaked Whitehall advice warns of food, fuel and medication shortages.

The government has sought to play down the risks of a “no deal” Brexit after leaked advice from Whitehall warned of shortages of food, fuel and medication if Britain leaves without a deal.

Three scenarios drawn up in Whitehall and obtained by the Sunday Times – the worst referred to as “armageddon” – lay out the consequences should Britain walk away from the negotiating table.

“In the second scenario, not even the worst, the port of Dover will collapse on day one. The supermarkets of Cornwall and Scotland will run out of food within a couple of days, and hospitals will run out of medicines within two weeks,” a source told the Sunday Times.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ddon-fears

Interesting leaked document. Make a deal now, this has been dragged out long enough with enough insecurity for everyone.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 1955
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:29 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I am quite happy to push onwards in order to stop the biggest mistake Britain has made since Neville Chamberlain and appeasement.


Funny you should mention that, because your antidemocratic neo-fascist agenda bears a lot of resemblance to the Zeitgeist of the 30s.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:06 pm

Gosh, you all sound a little bit scared of people having a final say!

What is there to be freightened of I wonder?

#DemocracyDoesNotStandStill
 
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seahawk
Posts: 7138
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:09 pm

aviationaware wrote:
"Compromise" and "raising questions" - all fair and good. Cancelling Brexit and overturning the vote is neither of those things.


There is no compromise in Brexit. Out means out - and that means fully and completely out and free.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2126
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:10 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I pray every night that Theresa May grows a spine and has a Night of the Long Knives.

Every Brexiteer sacked from Government posts.

We could then have a Grand Coalition, a Government of National Unity. This could then ram through a bill stating that Brexit is too difficult, too dangerous to businesses and would cost far too many jobs.


Well yea! To hell with the democratic vote, right? Wasn't that the power-success plan of the EU in Ireland on the Lisbon treaty? After they voted no, they just had another referendum. And if that had been a resounding no yet again, no problem, they would have had a third.

Democracy is not about voting until the result suits you. Democracy is about voting and then maybe swallowing a bitter pill if the result was not what you had envisioned.

You Remainers disgust me with your disdain for the referendum process. You lost - deal with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that the medieval and antidemocratic Lords were agitating against Brexit all day long.


One man, one vote, one time. Sounds like a mid-east terrorism to me.
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Dutchy
Posts: 6091
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:23 pm

seahawk wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
"Compromise" and "raising questions" - all fair and good. Cancelling Brexit and overturning the vote is neither of those things.


There is no compromise in Brexit. Out means out - and that means fully and completely out and free.


That is an interpretation, a hard-liners interpretation, it's your interpretation. The truth is that nobody knows, so it is up to the UK government to decide what kind of Brexit or put it to a vote again.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7138
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
"Compromise" and "raising questions" - all fair and good. Cancelling Brexit and overturning the vote is neither of those things.


There is no compromise in Brexit. Out means out - and that means fully and completely out and free.


That is an interpretation, a hard-liners interpretation, it's your interpretation. The truth is that nobody knows, so it is up to the UK government to decide what kind of Brexit or put it to a vote again.


Imho this is the only option, as everything else is like being half pregnant, it makes no sense. And imho any other outcome will be bad for the EU and the UK, as it would not change the British internal politics and the new partnership won´t be an efficient or easy one - again.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6091
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:43 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:

There is no compromise in Brexit. Out means out - and that means fully and completely out and free.


That is an interpretation, a hard-liners interpretation, it's your interpretation. The truth is that nobody knows, so it is up to the UK government to decide what kind of Brexit or put it to a vote again.


Imho this is the only option, as everything else is like being half pregnant, it makes no sense. And imho any other outcome will be bad for the EU and the UK, as it would not change the British internal politics and the new partnership won´t be an efficient or easy one - again.


Tell that to the Norwegians, Canadians, Swiss or a number of other countries whom did like to have such a partnership.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7138
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is an interpretation, a hard-liners interpretation, it's your interpretation. The truth is that nobody knows, so it is up to the UK government to decide what kind of Brexit or put it to a vote again.


Imho this is the only option, as everything else is like being half pregnant, it makes no sense. And imho any other outcome will be bad for the EU and the UK, as it would not change the British internal politics and the new partnership won´t be an efficient or easy one - again.


Tell that to the Norwegians, Canadians, Swiss or a number of other countries whom did like to have such a partnership.


That is the point, they like to have a partnership - the British not so much.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6091
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:58 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Imho this is the only option, as everything else is like being half pregnant, it makes no sense. And imho any other outcome will be bad for the EU and the UK, as it would not change the British internal politics and the new partnership won´t be an efficient or easy one - again.


Tell that to the Norwegians, Canadians, Swiss or a number of other countries whom did like to have such a partnership.


That is the point, they like to have a partnership - the British not so much.


A soft Brexit = partnership......... the only question is what the Brits want with this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
Posts: 1701
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:19 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

2 questions:

1) Which "nonsense rule" do you not like?
2) Are you happy at a cost of up to £1.25 billion a week to get rid of that "nonsense rule"?


1) Well I suppose mass immigration qualifies under that. The steel subsidy debate above is another example.

2) Can we provide any proof that's actually going to be the cost? I'm talking Proof now and not a prediction from a bank in an article from the Guardian.


1) that is not a rule/law, that is your perception, so quite different

I ask again, what specific rule do you think is a nonsense rule? To clarify, perhaps you can quote me the law in question as you are asking this of others?

2) The £1.25 billion a week cost is the UK governments own impact assessment based on no deal and reverting to WTO rules. Notice I also said “up to”.


Immigrant overload is not a perception, it's an observation. Free movement is a massive part of the European Unions laws so I find it amazing how you can say that. Etheir you're pig ignorant or you just don't have a clue.
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Arion640
Posts: 1701
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:21 pm

Channex757 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I pray every night that Theresa May grows a spine and has a Night of the Long Knives.

Every Brexiteer sacked from Government posts.

We could then have a Grand Coalition, a Government of National Unity. This could then ram through a bill stating that Brexit is too difficult, too dangerous to businesses and would cost far too many jobs.


Well yea! To hell with the democratic vote, right? Wasn't that the power-success plan of the EU in Ireland on the Lisbon treaty? After they voted no, they just had another referendum. And if that had been a resounding no yet again, no problem, they would have had a third.

Democracy is not about voting until the result suits you. Democracy is about voting and then maybe swallowing a bitter pill if the result was not what you had envisioned.

You Remainers disgust me with your disdain for the referendum process. You lost - deal with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that the medieval and antidemocratic Lords were agitating against Brexit all day long.

Disgust? Well suck it up, sistah. I don't care.

I am quite happy to push onwards in order to stop the biggest mistake Britain has made since Neville Chamberlain and appeasement. The referendum was sold to Britain on a tissue of fabrication, and the Remain campaign was, frankly, piss-poor and condescending.

Some of us can see further than next week. There is too much damage waiting down the Brexit yellow brick road so some of us need to act like grown ups and push Dorothy May off it. Even hypocrites like Nigel Lawson are decamping to France, for God's sake!


I for one can't wait.

I also find it hilarious how everyone is shouting about nigel Lawson. One man who publicly supported brexit is moving abroad. Who cares.

David Milliband buggered off to the US. Who cares.
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:28 pm

sevenair wrote:
There can be no half in half out. There can be no cherry picking. There can be no second referendum.


But Buttercup, cherry picking and the best of both worlds pretty much sums up the leave campaign, despite experts telling them that they were not based on reality.... (but then experts were shunned on your side weren’t they)

We were sold all the benefits with none of the costs, and will get delivered few of the benefits and tremendous costs.

A Peoples Vote is the answer.... if the countries answer is still to leave after that then fair play...
 
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Channex757
Posts: 1948
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:34 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I am quite happy to push onwards in order to stop the biggest mistake Britain has made since Neville Chamberlain and appeasement.


Funny you should mention that, because your antidemocratic neo-fascist agenda bears a lot of resemblance to the Zeitgeist of the 30s.

Really? Where in my statement does it preclude a vote of the elected representatives of the UK population or indeed a second Referendum?

Reaching a little bit now, are we not my dear fragile little Brexitard
 
Arion640
Posts: 1701
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:50 pm

Richard28 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
There can be no half in half out. There can be no cherry picking. There can be no second referendum.


But Buttercup, cherry picking and the best of both worlds pretty much sums up the leave campaign, despite experts telling them that they were not based on reality.... (but then experts were shunned on your side weren’t they)

We were sold all the benefits with none of the costs, and will get delivered few of the benefits and tremendous costs.

A Peoples Vote is the answer.... if the countries answer is still to leave after that then fair play...


Meanwhile at the remain camp, we were sold all the costs and none of the benefits.

And the remain camp was telling the truth and totally factual. Despite experts telling them us they remain claims weren't based on reality...
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:00 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Meanwhile at the remain camp, we were sold all the costs and none of the benefits.


If I may.
You already made that argument, but that´s actually not one. Remain was the baseline, it had nothing to sell, all known.
It´s obviously only the Brexit camp that needs to deliver any kind of project, and still fail to do so.

I miss the user PIHERO, would love to read his contribution on the whole Brexit thing :biggrin:
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