scbriml wrote:

Let the politicians thrash out whatever deal they can, including how the NI border will work, then let the people decide with a referendum!

agreed

However as we both know, no solution in Northern Ireland will work, it is either acceptance of a customs union of some sort (with equivalence in legislation), or a hard border and WTO rules. There are no shades of grey and neither of these options will gain a majority in the commons.

The problem we have is that the UK Government have spent the best part of two years pretending there is a solution to this paradox... and the longer they pretend to be working on a solution, the less likely we will be able to have a say in this matter that will have a return to the EU as an option.

Theresa May needs to get honest in the negotiations and with the public and give the people a vote on the outcome before end March 2019.

Oh dear. It's actually tragic seeing people wanting things to fail! They claim to care about people and that they're looking out for the poor but the reality is they're just wanting to be proved right and support anyone, or anything that can support their vision of a post apocalyptic Britain following Brexit.

What a pathetic existence!

The Irish border is just another attempt to stop Brexit. Calling for another referendum didn't work, trying to illigitimise the referendum didn't work, calling for a vote on the deal and an opportunity to derail Brexit didn't work and the Irish border won't work. All it's doing is cementing the idea that a FTA is the only way forward. You're using it to try derail Brexit but the reality it you're just making more of a success out of it!

Bravo chaps!

sevenair wrote:

Oh dear. It's actually tragic seeing people wanting things to fail! !

Getting confused with people "wanting" things and "analysing" things again sevenair?

nobody wants this Brexit to fail, it is just obvious to those who care to look, that this ship is doomed.

Your beloved Brexit will not get through without Commons support, that means pleasing the DUP who don't want a hard border or a border in the North Sea (thus necessitating some kind of customs union), whilst pleasing Rees-Mogg and that crowd with the ability to forge our own trade deals (whilst ditching the perfectly good ones already in place) through having no customs agreement or equivalence in EU legislation.

So please do tell us, now that video cameras and such technology have been discounted, how will the Irish border issue work?

If you can't fix that, you can't get Brexit.

Believe it our not, but according to Bloomberg, the UK govenment is currently sounding out the EU to see if they can 'apply the NI backstop solution to the whole of the UK'.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... se-deepens

In other words:the British government is now considering full CU and SM membership for the entire UK in stealth!

Now that all British proposals on alternatives to avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland are called nonsense, the backstop solution looks likely to take effect.
Applying it to the whole of the UK would obviously solve the political catch 22 situation the UK maneuvred itself in of just where the resulting border should come: in the Irish Sea (no go for the DUP), or down the North Sea (no go for the Conservatives), whereas it would offer the advantage of 'already being agreed' before, thus not requiring further and politically humiliating negotiations in Brussel with a further blurring of yet another red line by the UK government.

However, the EU has firmly rejected this creative way out since the backstop solution on NI is contained in only a few articles of the divorce agreement between the EU and the UK and is thus ment for limited, regional use only in order to sort out the many small and local difficulties arising from that divorce as the ultimate solution of last resort, not for expanded use by a country as a whole: if the UK wants the same provisions for NI to apply to the whole of Britain like now seems to be the case, it will have to be done through an official and separate new treaty between the EU and the UK on joining the European Customs Union, obviously with a much more expanded set of obligations and long term commitments than in the backstop solution for just NI.

<Double post deleted>

sevenair wrote:

The Irish border is just another attempt to stop Brexit.

No, it's just another example of the people who voted for Brexit clearly not understanding what it meant.

What is your solution? You keep showering us with your petty "good news memes" but never provide answers to the difficult questions. Why is that?

sevenair wrote:

flights stopping!

Now let me try and break this down for you.

Britain is currently part of the European Common Aviation Area along with the rest of the EU, three EFTA states and a number of non-EU states. This system has replaced the previous system of bilateral air agreements between the different countries in the ECAA in favour of a very open, open skies system.

Now, presuming Britain is going to leave the ECAA (which would be stupid), that means a replacement is needed. Assuming negotiations broke down and we left with no deal, this potentially leaves Britain and the other ECAA members in a position where there is no legal agreement for airlines to operate between the UK and the rest of the ECAA members. Therefore you could end up in a situation where flights do indeed stop. Outside of the ECAA, with no agreement to replace it negotiated, what right does Ryanair the have to operate flights out of the UK or domestic UK flights? What rights do KLM then have to fly between the UK and the Netherlands?

Also, the ECAA members are covered by the US-EU Open Skies agreement. If we are out of that without a replacement, what then? Revert to the old Bermuda Agreements? Well that basically screws a big chunk of US-UK flights on the basis of how restrictive the old agreements were in terms of which airlines could fly to where.

The idea of flights stopping is not imaginary. It a very real risk we run unless we either stay in the ECAA or negotiate a comprehensive agreement to replace it.

UltimoTiger777 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

flights stopping!

Now let me try and break this down for you.

Britain is currently part of the European Common Aviation Area along with the rest of the EU, three EFTA states and a number of non-EU states. This system has replaced the previous system of bilateral air agreements between the different countries in the ECAA in favour of a very open, open skies system.

Now, presuming Britain is going to leave the ECAA (which would be stupid), that means a replacement is needed. Assuming negotiations broke down and we left with no deal, this potentially leaves Britain and the other ECAA members in a position where there is no legal agreement for airlines to operate between the UK and the rest of the ECAA members. Therefore you could end up in a situation where flights do indeed stop. Outside of the ECAA, with no agreement to replace it negotiated, what right does Ryanair the have to operate flights out of the UK or domestic UK flights? What rights do KLM then have to fly between the UK and the Netherlands?

Also, the ECAA members are covered by the US-EU Open Skies agreement. If we are out of that without a replacement, what then? Revert to the old Bermuda Agreements? Well that basically screws a big chunk of US-UK flights on the basis of how restrictive the old agreements were in terms of which airlines could fly to where.

The idea of flights stopping is not imaginary. It a very real risk we run unless we either stay in the ECAA or negotiate a comprehensive agreement to replace it.

You soy latte-swilling remoaner. Why can't you just accept the fact we're leaving the EU?

Admit it, you just want to see it all fail...

scbriml wrote:

You soy latte-swilling remoaner. Why can't you just accept the fact we're leaving the EU?

Admit it, you just want to see it all fail...

Yeah! and think about all the bureaucracy that is being removed here by leaving the EU!

(except of course Wizz Air setting up a UK subsidiary, easyJet having to set up an Austrian subsidiary and re-register some aircraft abroard, Ryanair having to set up a UK subsidiary etc etc)

Touched a nerve have I my remoaner friends? Oh dear. Perhaps it’s time we all come together and try make a success of our independence?

Still peddling your project fear? Personally I can’t wait for the flights to stop. It’ll be like the volcano all over again. Sitting at home getting paid. Wonderful. I’ll get to watch you lot from my home which has crashed in value 24/7 meltdown once we are finally out and will be able to watch the apocalypse live on remainer News. Sorry, I mean Sky. I mean I’d go abroad but I’ll nedd a visa or have to pay to get in.

I can’t wait for roster code PIVT or BRXT showing up on my roster!

sevenair wrote:

Touched a nerve have I my remoaner friends? Oh dear. Perhaps it’s time we all come together and try make a success of our independence?

Still peddling your project fear? Personally I can’t wait for the flights to stop. It’ll be like the volcano all over again. Sitting at home getting paid. Wonderful. I’ll get to watch you lot from my home which has crashed in value 24/7 meltdown once we are finally out and will be able to watch the apocalypse live on remainer News. Sorry, I mean Sky. I mean I’d go abroad but I’ll nedd a visa or have to pay to get in.

I can’t wait for roster code PIVT or BRXT showing up on my roster!

Still no solutions, then?

sevenair wrote:

Touched a nerve have I my remoaner friends? Oh dear. Perhaps it’s time we all come together and try make a success of it.

Isn't that what an overwhelming majority in the Lords and likely also a majority in the commons are currenrly working hard on while the Conservative goverment sticks its head in the sand and just hopes for the best?

As predicted a couple of pages up: the UK government is completely unable to make any strategic decision during the Brexit negotiations and is thus relying on Parliament to force it to make a certain choice and cross another of its self-imposed red lines: i.e. remaining in Customs Union with Europe.
That, together with the CTA is the only solution for NI and it also avoids the practical nightmare of having to turn half of the South East in to parking lots for Dover.
Sure, it will put Liam Fox without a future job, but other than that????
Once the CU is in the pocket, and thus without the option for Britain to strike own trade deals (unless identical to those of the EU), the issue of just why SM membership is given up will arise quickly even if just out of practical reasons: you really want to set up an entire administration only to copy-paste deals and rules, while having no say whatsoever over any of these????

Norway outcome is now awfully close indeed.

sabenapilot wrote:

Once the CU is in the pocket, and thus without the option for Britain to strike own trade deals (unless identical to those of the EU), the issue of just why SM membership is given up will arise quickly even if just out of practical reasons: you really want to set up an entire administration only to copy-paste deals and rules, while having no say whatsoever over any of these????

Norway outcome is now awfully close indeed.

Then straight after this will come the question, if we are in CU & SM and membership cost savings have not materialised then why not also have a vote at the table and stay in the EU?

Slow Motion Brexit Dominos - I just wished they would speed up this process!

sevenair wrote:

Touched a nerve have I my remoaner friends?

I voted leave. Still would. Doesn't change the facts about what I posted though does it?

sevenair wrote:

Still peddling your project fear?

The ball is now in your court sevenair - this is now Brexit "Project No Fear" that is being peddled (as mentioned up thread)

This is why we ask the questions.

(yet you provide no answers)

sevenair wrote:

Despite Brexit

"but more than half of those surveyed believe the City will lose its crown by 2023."

source : http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-fi ... ing-2018-4

#BecauseOfBrexit

so, back to the question in hand sevenair, please do tell us, now that video cameras and such technology have been discounted, how will the Irish border problem be solved?

I see. So despite us voting to leave, despite us being out of the EU for a while by the time 2023 comes, we are only going to move back to second place and be in the same position we have been for for quite some time? Oh and despite being in the EU we've only managed second place in the entire world. We vote to leave. We are number one. And will be for at least five years.

It's amazing how prophecies of doom are absolute fact and credible but when it comes to anything positive it's just dangerous brexiteer predictions.

#WorstApocalypseEver

Are you going to respond to my points about air travel or not?

sevenair wrote:

I see. So despite us leaving, despite us being out of the EU for a while, we are only going to move back to second place and b win the same position we have been for for quite some time?

#WorstApocalypseEver

Do you seriously think that Brexit with its future immigration controls, loss of passporting, loss of equivalence in jurisdiction, dual compliance structures and associated costs will:

a) be good for the city
b) be harmful for the city

let me give you a clue, it's not A.

Does it also not strike you as odd that other countries are vying to win UK's financial sector business?

(care to answer my question on the Northern Ireland border while you are at it?)

Richard28 wrote:

sabenapilot wrote:

Once the CU is in the pocket, and thus without the option for Britain to strike own trade deals (unless identical to those of the EU), the issue of just why SM membership is given up will arise quickly even if just out of practical reasons: you really want to set up an entire administration only to copy-paste deals and rules, while having no say whatsoever over any of these????

Norway outcome is now awfully close indeed.

Then straight after this will come the question, if we are in CU & SM and membership cost savings have not materialised then why not also have a vote at the table and stay in the EU?

Slow Motion Brexit Dominos - I just wished they would speed up this process!

Actually, I do hope they fall slowly, like in 'during the transition phase' only.

I think it will only fall then in full, simply because there's not enough time left now AND because its an easier sell for politicians in Britain to just extend the then current transition agreement indefinitely than it is to make a U-turn on all those utopian Brexit goals, today.
Its also after the next general election...

The advantage of such a slow coming to senses for the EU is that the UK will definitely have lost its seat at the EU table then: a good thing IMHO because quite frankly they have been the main source of much frustration in Europe: there's always room to discuss the best way forward and obviously not everybody is always in full agreement on everything amongst the EU27 either, but its exhausting to have a single member state who doesn't want to move at all, on whatever topic being discussed. That has been the UK for the past 25 years or so, ever since the EC was turned into the EU, so its going to be a relief to be 'amongst people of good will' again...
In fact, you can already sense that atmosphere today.

The Brexiteers 'grand and cunning plan' for Brexit was that the UK leaving would make the EU implode or at least start of a round of infights between remaining member states and thus no further negotiating details from Britain would be needed; the real outcome however is that the EU27 are more easily united and thus stronger than with the UK in their midst, while the Brexiteers are left with unsolvable questions on how to proceed like we see today..

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics. You know how we voted to leave the EU so that we can get bendy bananas, blue passports and the like? Well, can anyone tell me if, when we take back control, if we ATPL holders can get the green licences back? I do hope so, I don't see why I should get the same colour as ameature pilots. Can anyone tell when we are sovereign once again if we will see the little green book? Or is it a case of it being controlled locally like we could always have blue passports, perhaps the CAA could have always provided us real pilots with little green books? One hopes so! My blue passport held inside my green licence. Yes please!

I mean despite it being possible for a pilot in say, Dubai to be EASA licences, you all know with absolute certainty that we are leaving EASA and will no have a working agreement with them, and won't be able to get EASA licences.

sevenair wrote:

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics.

No.

We've asked you various questions which you have refused to answer.

care to answer these first?

No answer then! Interesting that when I post there's 4/5 responses within minutes but not with this one! No doubt when you all find out the answer you'll all be posting it as if it's something we all should known and that it was common knowledge and only a fool didn't know that blue licences aren't a requirement.

Green books please for us Empire Airways pilots!

sevenair wrote:

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics. You know how we voted to leave the EU so that we can get bendy bananas, blue passports and the like? Well, can anyone tell me if, when we take back control, if we ATPL holders can get the green licences back? I do hope so, I don't see why I should get the same colour as ameature pilots. Can anyone tell when we are sovereign once again if we will see the little green book? Or is it a case of it being controlled locally like we could always have blue passports, perhaps the CAA could have always provided us real pilots with little green books? One hopes so! My blue passport held inside my green licence. Yes please!

I mean despite it being possible for a pilot in say, Dubai to be EASA licences, you all know with absolute certainty that we are leaving EASA and will no have a working agreement with them, and won't be able to get EASA licences.

who cares? You were allowed to have a blue passport.....

Richard28 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics.

No.

We've asked you various questions which you have refused to answer.

care to answer these first?

Solution is very simple. Free trade deal means no border needed. No employment without a work permit, NHS, housing, benefits for those who come here illegally. No, there's no stopping them coming over a border, but you're removing many of their incentives to come here in the first place. We already issue temp work permits for agriworkers and could extend the scheme.

But frankly I don't care. I don't rely on EU workers. I don't have a problem with EU works. I'm not an EU worker nor do I want to work in the EU. It's not for me to find a solution.

sevenair wrote:

Richard28 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics.

No.

We've asked you various questions which you have refused to answer.

care to answer these first?

Solution is very simple. Free trade deal means no border needed. No employment without a work permit, NHS, housing, benefits for those who come here illegally. No, there's no stopping them coming over a border, but you're removing many of their incentives. We already issue temp work permits for agriworkers and could extend the scheme.

But frankly I don't care. I don't rely on EU workers. I don't have a problem with EU works. I'm not an EU worker nor do I want to work in the EU. It's not for me to find a solution.

And there you go, you claim to be a commercial pilot, so you probably will not be affected all that much and you don't care what happens. Pretty self-centered wouldn't you agree.

sevenair wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

sevenair wrote:

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics. You know how we voted to leave the EU so that we can get bendy bananas, blue passports and the like? Well, can anyone tell me if, when we take back control, if we ATPL holders can get the green licences back? I do hope so, I don't see why I should get the same colour as ameature pilots. Can anyone tell when we are sovereign once again if we will see the little green book? Or is it a case of it being controlled locally like we could always have blue passports, perhaps the CAA could have always provided us real pilots with little green books? One hopes so! My blue passport held inside my green licence. Yes please!

I mean despite it being possible for a pilot in say, Dubai to be EASA licences, you all know with absolute certainty that we are leaving EASA and will no have a working agreement with them, and won't be able to get EASA licences.

who cares? You were allowed to have a blue passport.....

I care. I want my green ATPL, with my blue passport, my bendy bananas and my powerful vacuum cleaner to go with my bright incandescent light bulbs and my golden fried chips.

Yeah, you truly are thinking about the necessities in life, all the basics are there.

Dutchy wrote:

sevenair wrote:

I do have a genuine question of you EU fanatics. You know how we voted to leave the EU so that we can get bendy bananas, blue passports and the like? Well, can anyone tell me if, when we take back control, if we ATPL holders can get the green licences back? I do hope so, I don't see why I should get the same colour as ameature pilots. Can anyone tell when we are sovereign once again if we will see the little green book? Or is it a case of it being controlled locally like we could always have blue passports, perhaps the CAA could have always provided us real pilots with little green books? One hopes so! My blue passport held inside my green licence. Yes please!

I mean despite it being possible for a pilot in say, Dubai to be EASA licences, you all know with absolute certainty that we are leaving EASA and will no have a working agreement with them, and won't be able to get EASA licences.

who cares? You were allowed to have a blue passport.....

I care. I want my green ATPL, with my blue passport, my bendy bananas and my powerful vacuum cleaner to go with my bright incandescent light bulbs and my golden fried chips.

Ok, that is your perspective. 20 years to recover and leave the EU behind. Well, that is a seriously high-risk game, the 20-year gamble. But probably the most rational thing you have said.

Dutchy wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Richard28 wrote:

No.

We've asked you various questions which you have refused to answer.

care to answer these first?

Solution is very simple. Free trade deal means no border needed. No employment without a work permit, NHS, housing, benefits for those who come here illegally. No, there's no stopping them coming over a border, but you're removing many of their incentives. We already issue temp work permits for agriworkers and could extend the scheme.

But frankly I don't care. I don't rely on EU workers. I don't have a problem with EU works. I'm not an EU worker nor do I want to work in the EU. It's not for me to find a solution.

And there you go, you claim to be a commercial pilot, so you probably will not be affected all that much and you don't care what happens. Pretty self-centered wouldn't you agree.

I see. I won't be affected but the planes are going to stop flying, UK airlines are 'moving abroad' and safety standards will suffer greatly as we dared leave the EU? If that's the case then I very much will be affected.

The reality is I can see right through the rubbish that you lot spout. I know I'll be ok, just as I know the 3,000,000 EU nations here will remain ok and the 1,000,000 UK nationals living in the EU will be ok. The world will still turn, the sun will rise and life will go on. Brexit is a 20+ year plan from my perspective.

And working in the airlines I'd say most of the remainers are the self-centred ones only worried that the price of their lattes are going to go up, or they won't be able to retire to Portugal or that their house won't increase in value.

They're also highly cynical people. An arch remoaner was outraged that UK fishing fleets will be fully CFP compliant for an additional two years. When I pointed out that the status quo of remaining in the EU was for the UK fishing fleets to remain part of the CFP forever he didn't like it. Nor did he like it when I asked where was his protests over the last 40 years when our fishing fleet was decimated through dodgy dealings of our own government and the EEC/EU? The faux, selective outrage that you lot come up with is hillarious.

sevenair wrote:

but I fully expected the UK to enter a mild recession following the vote. To me it's a price worth paying.

And this is elitism comment, sure you earn something like four/five times the average joe, so you probably don't care if you earn a little bit less, but for many people, it is a problem.

I interest with many remoaners online so I forget where I've posted what, but I fully expected the UK to enter a mild recession following the vote. To me it's a price worth paying. As it happened, the UK has continued to grow, much to the disappointment of the remoaners who then have the audacity to claim that they care about the UK and the less fortunate but at the same time are gutted whenever the country continues to excel.

And please don't anyone spout out the 'UK is the slowest growing economy in the......' line. I fully expected us to be in recession. The remoaners expected us to be in recession. We aren't. We've continued to grow. Not amazing growth no, but slow, steady, consistent and sustainable growth.

And going back to the idea that I don't have anything to lose, that simply isn't true. I've saved for years into a share scheme and the price halved overnight just after the vote. I had just bought a house and where I come from rising house prices *are* a good thing, I also have a UK pension fund and hope to bring children up in the UK. It's not really accurate to say that I have no interests in making a success of of this. If it is a disaster many of my shares (which I can't remove under 4 years pass) crash in value. It's a disaster if my home falls in value as I'm already in negative equity with a shared rental property I have, my pension will fall and I'm constantly told that my employer will move, close down UK ops or flights will stop.

I'm invested in this big time and I want it to work.

I assume by the lack of sarcastic, insulting replies that nobody has found the answer to green ATPLs yet? I don't really care if I'm honest. I just know how much blue passports wind up the remoaners so I can imagine green licences will do exactly the same!

sevenair wrote:

Solution is very simple. Free trade deal means no border needed.

Seriously ? You don't even understand that basic thing? Free trade means just a fee is not collected (within the limitation of the deal), not that the flow thru the border is unchecked......

Olddog wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Solution is very simple. Free trade deal means no border needed.

Seriously ? You don't even understand that basic thing? Free trade means just a fee is not collected (within the limitation of the deal), not that the flow thru the border is unchecked......

If there's no fee to be collected, there's no need for a border, thus the Irish border issue is a non-issue. No checkpoints, no 'high tech solution' and no cameras needed. Borders are very much unchecked throughout the EU and there's no reason why it can't continue if there's no need to collect tarrifs.

Varadkar knows Ireland has a lot to lose from Brexit. He and the EU are trying to get us to agree to the backstop solution which we will never agree to. His thinking is likely that we will agree to it, talks on a free trade deal will 'break down' and the EU get to keep us in the EU or at least the single market. Best for the EU and Ireland specifically. And how convenient was it that an 'EU source' claims that none of the proposals worked today, which was quickly denied by the government.

Remoaners like to think the Irish border is their way to stop Brexit but I'm afraid it isn't. For the Irish it's a way of indulging their anti British sentiment and the remoaners encourage it. The Irish border is vastly overstated. I do wonder, of joining the EEC was irreversible, were people told that at the time?

Oki you are just a troll. I can understand someone to be fanatic leaver but when you argue about things you don't understand, you are not funny anymore.

Go read http://eureferendum.com/default.aspx. He is a total Brexiter but at least he is not confusing the basics.

If there's no tariffs to collect, there's no need for a border, just like the dozens of borders throughout the EU currently. It really is that simple.

NO.
There is no border between Schengen states, but there is a border between France and the UK for exemple. Heard of Calais Jungle ?

There is not border in Ireland now because of GFA and SM. But if NI exists the SM there will be border to check the goods and to have veterinary and SPS checks.

sevenair wrote:

Olddog wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Solution is very simple. Free trade deal means no border needed.

Seriously ? You don't even understand that basic thing? Free trade means just a fee is not collected (within the limitation of the deal), not that the flow thru the border is unchecked......

If there's no fee to be collected, there's no need for a border, thus the Irish border issue is a non-issue. No checkpoints, no 'high tech solution' and no cameras needed. Borders are very much unchecked throughout the EU and there's no reason why it can't continue if there's no need to collect tarrifs.

Borders across the EU are unchecked not because there's no fee to be collected on the goods moved across them, but because all goods moved back and forth are produced and certified by exactly the very same standards recognized throughout the entire EU and supervised by the same regulatory authorities (EC, ECJ) and thus there's no need to make sure 'unauthorized' or 'uncompliant' goods get imported.

To understand this, look at NAFTA: its a free trade zone too, but the checks for goods at the internal Mexican-US-Canadian borders are very different than those in the port of Dover for instance (which are totally non-existent), exactly because there's no such regulatory integration and unique oversight like in the EU: goods flowing through North America thus have to be checked at each border to check whether they are compliance with the rules of the country to which they are imported, even if the import itself is free of any taxes.

The total lack of understanding of the importance of regulatory compliance and the difference between a FTA and a SM like you just demonstrated has long been present in the minds of those running the Brexit show in government too and it's one of the reasons why the UK is now seeking a transitional agreement with the EU which basically keeps everything as it is, while they try to get their heads around this practical problem: the flow of goods between the UK and the EU is so enormously big that it's not demonstrated how you can be in a wide ranging FTA without being also in some sort of a SM/CU set up with them to make the administrative friction as small as possible.

sevenair wrote:

I do wonder, of joining the EEC was irreversible, were people told that at the time?

Leaving the political structures of Europe is not impossible, but pretending the European Single Market won't exist after you have left, is.

sevenair wrote:

If there's no tariffs to collect, there's no need for a border, just like the dozens of borders throughout the EU currently. It really is that simple.

I urge you to go and check the Norwegian - Swedish border, even with free movement and a 99% aligned economy there are checks.

Then go to the Turkey - Greece border, Turkey is in the EEA yet there are miles of lorries queuing in the border.

Nothing short of full EU membership (or full alignment) means no border.

speaking of which:

Don Quixoterrain Dr Richard North • an hour ago

A holiday road trip out of the EU and back in again graphically illustrates procedures and the perils of training up new customs officers 'on the job'.

Upon driving into Turkey from the Greek motorway:

Greek side:
1- Immigration Polis checkpoint, they like burgundy EU passports.
2- Waved on through customs

Turkey:
1- Checkpoint #1:Personal & vehicle details entered into system.
2- Drive along to "Polis" kiosk which is immigration, check visa and stamp passport
3- Customs - cursory look inside vehicle, they fill out and stamp vehicle importation document. You can't leave without vehicle (they don't want you selling it there).
4- Final checkpoint - passport and car docs again.

Upon returning from Turkey via a Greek island:
Turkey:
Sorry Sir we have no record of your vehicle entering Turkey, I cannot let you leave. )
The main customs office is closed for the weekend you will have to go there on Monday.
Two days later the office quickly establishes that customs upon arrival into Turkey entered a 0 instead of an O in car registration number. )
(they were training up a new customs guy when we entered, he was the one that goofed)

Entry into Greece:
1- Have to leave the vehicle where we disembarked from ferry and enter immigration on foot, most traffic is foot passengers.
The non- EU queue is moving very slowly (get ready for this) with requests and fumblings for this and that documentation. A few people over to the side looking distraught.
2- Customs - ten minute rummage around in vehicle by bad customs "cop", while good customs "cop" engages us in smiling small talk.

Then off to the harbour cafe for a great cappucino with toasted ham cheese and tomato sandwich...)

Oh well. It's not going to work. It's going to be a disaster. End of the world. Again, I urge you guys to repent!

Frankly I couldn't care less about Ireland. Trade to and from the EU mainland, not a tiny insignificant country which is infested with anti British sentiment. Interestingly 6 our of DUB's busiest routes are to and from UK. But yes, it's only the UK who will suffer.

Frankly if that May hadn't called GE17 things would be a lot easier. Hand back NI I say. It's nothing but a drain on our resources and let's face it we have wales and Scotland to bankroll.

Anyway. Has anyone found my answer to my green ATPL holders?

sevenair wrote:

Frankly I couldn't care less about Ireland. Trade to and from the EU mainland, not a tiny insignificant country which is infested with anti British sentiment. Interestingly 6 our of DUB's busiest routes are to and from UK. But yes, it's only the UK who will suffer.

Lol!

So you can’t get an answer that works to the Irish question, so your retort is that you could not care less.

Could not make this stuff up! Yet more non thought through Brexit nonsense - ‘project No Fear’ in action!!!

The negotiators do not have the luxury of ignoring this however, as there are previous agreements to adhere to and not forgetting the UK government is a coalition made up with the DUP which will not let anything against Northern Ireland go through.

So whilst you may not care less this is not going away anytime soon....!

sevenair wrote:

Frankly if that May hadn't called GE17 things would be a lot easier. Hand back NI I say. It's nothing but a drain on our resources and let's face it we have wales and Scotland to bankroll.

So it’s not just Europeans you do not seem to like or have respect for, it’s the Irish, Scottish and Welsh too?

Wow.

sevenair wrote:

Oh well. It's not going to work. It's going to be a disaster. End of the world. Again, I urge you guys to repent!

No need to show signs of manic depression, sevenair.

As said: people who haven't committed themselves to the brave red lines of the British government which basically painted the country into a little corner from which it now discovers it can not break free unharmed are slowly but steadily working together on a range of practical albeit humbling solutions to the huge problems that would arise if the clean Brexit those bigmouths promissed would be so magnificent for all, would actually have to be delivered to the UK.

Great to see Parliamentary democracy taking over from the undemocratic system where the only ones who can influence policy are a few wealthy fatcats who happen to have the ear of the PM during a fund raising diner: taking back control indeed.

Richard28 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Frankly I couldn't care less about Ireland. Trade to and from the EU mainland, not a tiny insignificant country which is infested with anti British sentiment. Interestingly 6 our of DUB's busiest routes are to and from UK. But yes, it's only the UK who will suffer.

Lol!

So you can’t get an answer that works to the Irish question, so your retort is that you could not care less.

Could not make this stuff up! Yet more non thought through Brexit nonsense - ‘project No Fear’ in action!!!

The negotiators do not have the luxury of ignoring this however, as there are previous agreements to adhere to and not forgetting the UK government is a coalition made up with the DUP which will not let anything against Northern Ireland go through.

So whilst you may not care less this is not going away anytime soon....!

No. I can't answer the question. Can you? It's a hugely complex issue, way above my pay scale. But you're all so prescient as to what won't work so surely you can tell me what will work? And no, remaining in the EU and in the SM is not an option.

Richard28 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Frankly if that May hadn't called GE17 things would be a lot easier. Hand back NI I say. It's nothing but a drain on our resources and let's face it we have wales and Scotland to bankroll.

So it’s not just Europeans you do not seem to like or have respect for, it’s the Irish, Scottish and Welsh too?

Wow.

Yawn. Dangerously close to the 'your racist' line that you lot pull when you want to silence opposing views. Cite examples of me not 'liking' Europeans. I don't dislike anyone. I'm half Scottish - my dad being from there and having dozens of relatives whom I love dearly living there, my gran was Irish and my grandfather Welsh. I just don't believe in unions, sorry.

So please cite sources of me making comments that are against Europeans. I've made it totally clear that I want Europeans to continue to come here and would like you to cite specific examples of anything to the contrary.

mmo wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Anyway. Has anyone found my answer to my green ATPL holders?

I think a more relevant question would be, does anyone really care? The more you verbally vomit, the more amazed I am. Not only don't you make any sense at all, you can't even spell. I'm not sure where you were educated, but you might want to see if you can get your money back. Not fit for purpose!!!

Yes. Degree educated from a Russell Group uni. Do accept my apologies. Typing from a tiny screen doesn't help. It served me well as I now have my dream job and a job that many here could only dream of. I also earn a sh*t load of money too, so I can live with the odd typo. I don't think I'll be asking them for a refund.

It is a huge issue is it not? Given how obsessive the remoaners are about blue passports then surely I can't be blamed for wanting to know what colour my licence will be once we have taken back control.