With the silly but horribly serious error by Delta with China, it got me to thinking why this situation exists. Taiwan is its own country, it has its own citizens and identity and security issues etc. Tibet has been a distinct and separate identity for centuries regardless of China's claims of permanent influence/control (ask Vietnam). The only thing now keeping these two countries identities from being expressed is the current economic might and influence of China.
So I got to thinking about this and it seems to me the defining moment was when USA used its influence and might (at that time) to change the dynamic and come up with the "one China" concept. This was a result of Nixon's visit to and engagement with China in 1972. He was looking to gain an ally if possible against the USSR (at least influence that situation) and to assist with and shore up the failure in Vietnam. In doing so he allowed Taiwan to be stripped of its status (aspiring status) globally and ended any efforts to protect Tibet's independence. If that event had not happened, if Nixon had not visited and changed the dynamic with China the world be a very different place right now.
So what would have happened, what would have changed? China would likely be more typically communistic military state, and a war may have occurred over Taiwan etc. I do not think China would be the same economy it is today. I am wondering what others think.
Tugg
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Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
I think that the only reason China never invaded Taiwan was because it lacked the ability to take and hold beaches without getting its invasion fleet sunk.
I didn't know that Nixon sold out Tibet, does that mean he also should get credit for handing Xinjaing to China too?
I didn't know that Nixon sold out Tibet, does that mean he also should get credit for handing Xinjaing to China too?
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
salttee wrote:I think that the only reason China never invaded Taiwan was because it lacked the ability to take and hold beaches without getting its invasion fleet sunk.
Plus the very limited supply of suitable beaches for landings...
Best regards
Thomas
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
Tugger wrote:China would likely be more typically communistic military state, and a war may have occurred over Taiwan etc. I do not think China would be the same economy it is today. I am wondering what others think.
Without it, and Reagan giving US companies the money to invest, China would have collapsed with the rest of pseudo-communist nations.
Same with Vietnam, that got propped up by Bush Jr., that is what you get with a GOP giving priority to supplying slave labour to their big donor class instead of geo-strategic interest.
Best regards
Thomas
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- BawliBooch
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Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
America under Nixon went in to "do" China but instead ended up getting "done".
America in China sound's like many of the dates I have been on!
America in China sound's like many of the dates I have been on!
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
Here's an Alternate Universe that I'd like to have seen:
LBJ Doesn't do Vietnam.
LBJ Doesn't do Vietnam.
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
Nixon only followed in Charles De Gaulle footsteps from January 1964, when France was the first among the Western powers to open diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China.
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
De Gaulle would have had diplomatic relations with Satan, as long as Satan wasn't American.
He did maintain relations with Stalin.
De Gaulle was a most ungrateful SOB.
Nixon wasn't influenced by France.
He did maintain relations with Stalin.
De Gaulle was a most ungrateful SOB.
Nixon wasn't influenced by France.
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- WIederling
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Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
salttee wrote:De Gaulle would have had diplomatic relations with Satan, as long as Satan wasn't American.
He did maintain relations with Stalin.
De Gaulle was a most ungrateful SOB.
Nixon wasn't influenced by France.
The usual issues with competing aspirations of exceptionality.
ungrateful?
You assume some kind of altruism on the US side?
Fiction.
I have some doubts Nixon had anything to work influencing on.
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- WIederling
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Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
Tugger wrote:Taiwan is its own country, it has its own citizens and identity and security issues etc.
Formosa ( now Taiwan) had some indigenous people living there.
( today an ineffective minority.)
17th century we see Dutch and Spanish colonies that seem to have brought
Han Chinese from the mainland.
1895 to 1945 saw it under Japanese control.
( while on the mainland rule had moved from the Quing Dynasty to PRC )
After 1945 the Chinese civil war found its end with the troops of
Chiang Kai-shek having withdrawn to Formosa.
Just like South Korea we see another US ally with a less than democratic setup in power.
IMU it is rather open "whose" country Taiwan is?
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
WIederling wrote:Tugger wrote:Taiwan is its own country, it has its own citizens and identity and security issues etc.
Formosa ( now Taiwan) had some indigenous people living there.
( today an ineffective minority.)
you haven´t been to Taiwan in a decade or two, right? They make up just a few percent of the population, but not at all ineffective anymore. It is more like they assimilated the rest pretty well, all my friends there see themselves as Taiwanese, not ROC Citizens or such....
best regards
Thomas
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
Tugger wrote:So what would have happened, what would have changed?
Well for starters, the Vulcans wouldn't have had the saying, "only Nixon could go to China".
Re: Alternate universe - Nixon DOESN'T do China
WIederling wrote:IMU it is rather open "whose" country Taiwan is?
No, not really.
Tugg
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