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Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:40 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-the-dark says:

In May 2015 about 10 investigators for the Quebec tax authority burst into Uber Technologies Inc.’s office in Montreal. The authorities believed Uber had violated tax laws and had a warrant to collect evidence. Managers on-site knew what to do, say people with knowledge of the event.

Like managers at Uber’s hundreds of offices abroad, they’d been trained to page a number that alerted specially trained staff at company headquarters in San Francisco. When the call came in, staffers quickly remotely logged off every computer in the Montreal office, making it practically impossible for the authorities to retrieve the company records they’d obtained a warrant to collect. The investigators left without any evidence.

Most tech companies don’t expect police to regularly raid their offices, but Uber isn’t most companies. The ride-hailing startup’s reputation for flouting local labor laws and taxi rules has made it a favorite target for law enforcement agencies around the world. That’s where this remote system, called Ripley, comes in.

Pretty interesting move.

Personally I don't see the issue. It's basically good computer hygiene. Law enforcement should have warrants for specific bits of information, and should not be able to go on a fishing expedition.

I also think it's pretty revealing that Uber realized it'd become a target for law enforcement, but rather than deciding to strive for compliance, they decided to make it more difficult for law enforcement to bust them.
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Francoflier
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:08 pm

Pi$$ing off the cops and the authorities is probably not a sustainable strategy for them in the long term... They're playing with fire.

I am split on Uber, I must say. They provide an efficient, popular and necessary way around using taxis which I hate, and pioneer the dawn of the P2P economy. On the other hand, They use the management style and ethics of Monty Burns and I absolutely hate the arrogance and disregard for any value they ostensibly display. A truly hateful company, but one that provides a sorely needed service.

There's always Lyft, I guess...
:duck:
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casinterest
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:15 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Pi$$ing off the cops and the authorities is probably not a sustainable strategy for them in the long term... They're playing with fire.

I am split on Uber, I must say. They provide an efficient, popular and necessary way around using taxis which I hate, and pioneer the dawn of the P2P economy. On the other hand, They use the management style and ethics of Monty Burns and I absolutely hate the arrogance and disregard for any value they ostensibly display. A truly hateful company, but one that provides a sorely needed service.

There's always Lyft, I guess...
:duck:


Someone will get P2P traffic right, maybe Uber, Maybe Lyft, or maybe someone else.
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
Someone will get P2P traffic right, maybe Uber, Maybe Lyft, or maybe someone else.

Yep, just like Pandora got music "right"... :roll:
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:08 pm

Revelation wrote:

I also think it's pretty revealing that Uber realized it'd become a target for law enforcement, but rather than deciding to strive for compliance, they decided to make it more difficult for law enforcement to bust them.



Is it?

And is it actually known that they're not doing anything WRT compliance? It isn't impossible for both things to be happening simultaneously.
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:47 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Revelation wrote:

I also think it's pretty revealing that Uber realized it'd become a target for law enforcement, but rather than deciding to strive for compliance, they decided to make it more difficult for law enforcement to bust them.


Is it?

And is it actually known that they're not doing anything WRT compliance? It isn't impossible for both things to be happening simultaneously.

TFA says that (a) Uber put this policy in place after previous law enforcement exercises and (b) Uber was indeed found to not be in compliance in the Montreal raid yet did use this avoidance tactic, so the evidence shows they didn't use the previous LE exercises to gain compliance and did use the previous LE exercises to implement the avoidance tactic.
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Tugger
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Revelation wrote:

I also think it's pretty revealing that Uber realized it'd become a target for law enforcement, but rather than deciding to strive for compliance, they decided to make it more difficult for law enforcement to bust them.


Is it?

And is it actually known that they're not doing anything WRT compliance? It isn't impossible for both things to be happening simultaneously.

TFA says that (a) Uber put this policy in place after previous law enforcement exercises and (b) Uber was indeed found to not be in compliance in the Montreal raid yet did use this avoidance tactic, so the evidence shows they didn't use the previous LE exercises to gain compliance and did use the previous LE exercises to implement the avoidance tactic.

Actually it is a very smart tool to use and thing to do. For any company. Law enforcement will sometimes target locations for a warrant where they can then access a broader trove of unknown information that they have no right to, that the warrant doesn't cover. Just searching through a computer can lead to seeing files and file names or emails that can incriminate a subject and lead to a new request for a new warrant due to what has been seen (the
in plain sight doctrine, which even alone can allow consequential actions).

Uber has maybe done a number of reported underhanded things, but locking down computers and information until a more formal legal channel is established between the company and the authorities is a good decision for any company. Especially larger ones. The authorities still get the information required by the warrant, just none of the other perks they may be hoping for.

Tugg
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c933103
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:26 am

Francoflier wrote:
Pi$$ing off the cops and the authorities is probably not a sustainable strategy for them in the long term... They're playing with fire.

I am split on Uber, I must say. They provide an efficient, popular and necessary way around using taxis which I hate, and pioneer the dawn of the P2P economy. On the other hand, They use the management style and ethics of Monty Burns and I absolutely hate the arrogance and disregard for any value they ostensibly display. A truly hateful company, but one that provides a sorely needed service.

There's always Lyft, I guess...
:duck:

I guess it depend on country/area, how harsh the local police punish them and is there any hope for the local population to push pressure onto government to allow for changes that would allow their existence.. They're effective playing with politics and rules in different places around the world. I do hear that the service in Macau get closed because of the police and punishment there are too harsh for them to withstand.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
I also think it's pretty revealing that Uber realized it'd become a target for law enforcement, but rather than deciding to strive for compliance, they decided to make it more difficult for law enforcement to bust them.


You are surprised? They used software tricks to hide from Apple that they are violating Apple's privacy regulations, they used software to evade cops where Uber is illegal.
Uber is organized crime. They knew they will become a target for law enforcement before the first user downloaded the app.

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PPVRA
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I also think it's pretty revealing that Uber realized it'd become a target for law enforcement, but rather than deciding to strive for compliance, they decided to make it more difficult for law enforcement to bust them.


You are surprised? They used software tricks to hide from Apple that they are violating Apple's privacy regulations, they used software to evade cops where Uber is illegal.
Uber is organized crime. They knew they will become a target for law enforcement before the first user downloaded the app.

Best regards
Thomas


Uber knew they would become a target because they’re messing with the taxi mafia’s money. And to do so, they had to break laws the mafia had corrupt politicians pass under the auspices of the public good.

While they have been aggressive, in many ways they’ve had to be to break with the status quo.

Not too different than Elon Musk pushing hard to sell Tesla’s outside the mandated dealership system in the US.

The world needs more CEOs with balls.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Personally I don't see the issue. It's basically good computer hygiene.


Interesting. So when the police raid a facility, do they park themselves at the monitor and look for their evidence or do they haul the hard drives and whatnot to the station? Cutting the power is the equivalent of logging off.
 
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:10 am

PPVRA wrote:
Uber knew they would become a target because they’re messing with the taxi mafia’s money. And to do so, they had to break laws the mafia had corrupt politicians pass under the auspices of the public good.


Dude, you are hilariously funny. The countries that banned Uber first, are among the least corrupt nations on the planet..... quite telling.

While they have been aggressive, in many ways they’ve had to be to break with the status quo.


So, drug cartels and dealers are your hero´s too?

Not too different than Elon Musk pushing hard to sell Tesla’s outside the mandated dealership system in the US.


Wait, Tesla had to break the law to sell his cars?

The world needs more CEOs with balls.


The world needs CEOs like that to be in prison and have an occupational ban on being CEO after their release. You know, what proper nations do with CEOs that break the law systematically.

Its funny how aiding and embedding tax evasion, social security fraud, ignoring maintenance and insurance requirements and being completely unable to fulfill quality of service requirements that Taxi companies have, at least here, on top of their profit center "financial exploitation of need", i.e. charging hilarious amounts during time of tension/emergency, which is something caring governments are usually against, makes Uber a Hero in the eyes of so many.

That the, sometimes cheap, sometimes not cheap at all Uber may save you some out of your pocket money may be nice, but their effect on government and social security income costs you more in taxes and social security contributions. One can only assume that you never thought about that, or pay so little of either that you actually think you come out on top.

Uber charges their drivers more than Taxi services do, so every cent they may be cheaper than a regular taxi is exclusively from evading "costs" like taxes, social security, maintenance and insurance. Its a pure embezzlement scheme. At least thy are losing about 50ct on each US$ they make, so unless they go legit, they will just run out of money at some point. Good.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:42 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Wait, Tesla had to break the law to sell his cars?

Yes. Most states have laws that require/allow only an "independent dealer" to sell a vehicle to the public. Direct from manufacturer are not allowed. Tesla only does direct sales.

Basically as dealer networks grew large enough they passed state laws to control the flow more. The states liked it because it forced more local employment as well as somewhat assisting the public by making a local agent available and responsible if something went wrong with a distant manufacturer.

Tugg
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:27 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Wait, Tesla had to break the law to sell his cars?

Yes. Most states have laws that require/allow only an "independent dealer" to sell a vehicle to the public. Direct from manufacturer are not allowed. Tesla only does direct sales.


If he just ignored the law, he should be prosecuted....

Basically as dealer networks grew large enough they passed state laws to control the flow more. The states liked it because it forced more local employment as well as somewhat assisting the public by making a local agent available and responsible if something went wrong with a distant manufacturer.

Tugg


Land of the free, ey...... the ECJ would rip the nation a new one that pulls this kind of stunt (in fact they did do so many times with manufacturers and such).
Sometimes i think the US is much more socialist than Europe, just less social....

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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Wait, Tesla had to break the law to sell his cars?

Yes. Most states have laws that require/allow only an "independent dealer" to sell a vehicle to the public. Direct from manufacturer are not allowed. Tesla only does direct sales.

Basically as dealer networks grew large enough they passed state laws to control the flow more. The states liked it because it forced more local employment as well as somewhat assisting the public by making a local agent available and responsible if something went wrong with a distant manufacturer.

Tugg


Back in the old days (say 30s, 40s, and 50s - I am directly familiar with two of the three) every town had a chevie, a ford, and a chrysler agency, and probably a packard, studebaker, and nash one as well. The big three were big guys in the local economy (and I mean really big). And the next town over, maybe only ten miles away had another two, three, or all of these. They hired a lot of people, supported local government not only with taxes, but with money for candidates, donated to local charities and churches. This all created a lot of political clout, and for the most part it was good. The US congress made sure that local dealers were looked after - and protected from those big companies and their unions in Detroit.

These day are long gone, and dealers have become massive conglomerates, sometimes nationwide. Even Buffet has one of those conglomerates. But the politics has changed, still there but Oh So Different.

ps - I deliberately decapitalized those car names, cause that is kinda how we used those words when talking about cars and agencies.
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
Personally I don't see the issue. It's basically good computer hygiene. Law enforcement should have warrants for specific bits of information, and should not be able to go on a fishing expedition.


The "issue" will be those employees who contacted HQ to begin a cleansing operation after being served a warrant. In many jurisdictions, those employees could find themselves personally accused of obstructing justice. There's never a reason to take a bullet for your employer that could land you in jail.

Sure, compartmentalizing information is a smart and prudent measure for many reasons. But if served with a warrant in the workplace, the only rational action as an employee is to stop what you're doing and step away from your desk. The attorneys can argue admissibility in court.
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Personally I don't see the issue. It's basically good computer hygiene. Law enforcement should have warrants for specific bits of information, and should not be able to go on a fishing expedition.


The "issue" will be those employees who contacted HQ to begin a cleansing operation after being served a warrant. In many jurisdictions, those employees could find themselves personally accused of obstructing justice. There's never a reason to take a bullet for your employer that could land you in jail.

Sure, compartmentalizing information is a smart and prudent measure for many reasons. But if served with a warrant in the workplace, the only rational action as an employee is to stop what you're doing and step away from your desk. The attorneys can argue admissibility in court.

Where do you see anything about it "cleansing" anything? I see it only locking everything down until the company can "assist" in getting exactly what is being requested in the warrant.

Tugg
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:16 am

Tugger wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Personally I don't see the issue. It's basically good computer hygiene. Law enforcement should have warrants for specific bits of information, and should not be able to go on a fishing expedition.


The "issue" will be those employees who contacted HQ to begin a cleansing operation after being served a warrant. In many jurisdictions, those employees could find themselves personally accused of obstructing justice. There's never a reason to take a bullet for your employer that could land you in jail.

Sure, compartmentalizing information is a smart and prudent measure for many reasons. But if served with a warrant in the workplace, the only rational action as an employee is to stop what you're doing and step away from your desk. The attorneys can argue admissibility in court.

Where do you see anything about it "cleansing" anything? I see it only locking everything down until the company can "assist" in getting exactly what is being requested in the warrant.

Tugg


If you prefer "locking down" over "cleansing," then fine. It doesn't matter. Employees have no business "locking down" anything after being served with a warrant. Failing to cooperation with law enforcement will expose individual employees to criminal charges for which the company will provide zero indemnity.

This is not a hypothetical situation: when law enforcement is unable to press charges against a company, they will often fry individual employees over minor procedural violations. After the Deepwater Horizon spill, BP engineer Kurt Mix was convicted of felony obstruction of justice because he deleted three non-work related text message from his phone during the containment phase.

I think obstruction of justice statues are entirely too broad and allow law enforcement the means to convict just about anyone, anywhere, for anything when no other criminal charges can be proven. But, they're the law and you'd be stupid to break a criminal law to protect your employer.
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:58 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
I think obstruction of justice statues are entirely too broad and allow law enforcement the means to convict just about anyone, anywhere, for anything when no other criminal charges can be proven. But, they're the law and you'd be stupid to break a criminal law to protect your employer.

Very well said.

I think it's interesting how many of the Uber executives who've instituted some of these mechanisms/policies are no longer with the company, according to the article. I wonder if they went of their own volition, realizing that the environment there was unhealthy, or if they simply cashed in and/or had better offers?
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PPVRA
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Uber knew they would become a target because they’re messing with the taxi mafia’s money. And to do so, they had to break laws the mafia had corrupt politicians pass under the auspices of the public good.


Dude, you are hilariously funny. The countries that banned Uber first, are among the least corrupt nations on the planet..... quite telling.

While they have been aggressive, in many ways they’ve had to be to break with the status quo.


So, drug cartels and dealers are your hero´s too?

Not too different than Elon Musk pushing hard to sell Tesla’s outside the mandated dealership system in the US.


Wait, Tesla had to break the law to sell his cars?

The world needs more CEOs with balls.


The world needs CEOs like that to be in prison and have an occupational ban on being CEO after their release. You know, what proper nations do with CEOs that break the law systematically.

Its funny how aiding and embedding tax evasion, social security fraud, ignoring maintenance and insurance requirements and being completely unable to fulfill quality of service requirements that Taxi companies have, at least here, on top of their profit center "financial exploitation of need", i.e. charging hilarious amounts during time of tension/emergency, which is something caring governments are usually against, makes Uber a Hero in the eyes of so many.

That the, sometimes cheap, sometimes not cheap at all Uber may save you some out of your pocket money may be nice, but their effect on government and social security income costs you more in taxes and social security contributions. One can only assume that you never thought about that, or pay so little of either that you actually think you come out on top.

Uber charges their drivers more than Taxi services do, so every cent they may be cheaper than a regular taxi is exclusively from evading "costs" like taxes, social security, maintenance and insurance. Its a pure embezzlement scheme. At least thy are losing about 50ct on each US$ they make, so unless they go legit, they will just run out of money at some point. Good.

best regards
Thomas


1. If you're banning Uber, you're corrupt. Just a different kind of corrupt not the traditional money under the table stuff.

2. The world needs to throw politicians in jail who think banning Uber is right, then ban them from ever being elected again.

Drivers are much better off with Uber than shitty Taxi companies. And so are consumers. We are ALL better off with Uber and Elon Musk than some shitty protectionist ban on innovation because it doesn't fit within outdated regulatory and legal models. And mind you -- outdated ideological models, too.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:41 pm

Just imagine how much more innovation this world would have if people didn't have to break the law to innovate.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
tommy1808
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:06 am

PPVRA wrote:
1. If you're banning Uber, you're corrupt. Just a different kind of corrupt not the traditional money under the table stuff.


No, they simply understand what taxi services are for and don´t want that, in many countries essential for mobility, service to be in the hands of people that rip several times the regular fare of a granny on her way to a doctors appointment, just because demand surges during heavy rain.

2. The world needs to throw politicians in jail who think banning Uber is right, then ban them from ever being elected again.


Yes, also please lock up everyone else in the way of profitable crime instead of locking up the criminals....

Drivers are much better off with Uber than shitty Taxi companies.


maybe in shitty countries...

And so are consumers. We are ALL better off with Uber


Nope, we are not. Uber charges MORE from its drivers than regular taxi services, the only way they can, in principle, be cheaper than regular taxis on average is by cutting costs taxis have to bear. You know, those pesky insurance, maintenance requirements, or by paying his drivers worse than taxi companies. Anything else is logically impossible.
Well, it also helps that they are basically picking up 50% of the fare for the passenger at the moment, they make staggering losses after all and only survive via fresh cash inflows like any other criminal Ponzi Scheme. If they charged prices close to break even, Uber wouldn´t even exist anymore, since the average Uber "discount" is nowhere near the 50% they would need to make a profit and be cheaper than regular taxis.
Image

Seems without including a 20% tip for the taxi driver, Uber would be more expensive than Taxis in each of those cities if they charged break even prices. And this table doens´t even include Ubers infamous surge racketeering ...

and Elon Musk than some shitty protectionist ban on innovation because it doesn't fit within outdated regulatory and legal models. And mind you -- outdated ideological models, too.


Since Uber has zero innovations that statement, however true it may be, doesn´t bear on Uber. Just because they successfully duped you in to believing they are innovative doesn´t make it so.

PPVRA wrote:
Just imagine how much more innovation this world would have if people didn't have to break the law to innovate.


Just imagine how much more innovation this world would have if people focused on making better and cheaper products instead of finding new ways to evade taxes taxes, social security systems and so forth in order to make more profits out of the same product.

So, are you an Uber driver disgruntled that Taxi drivers hinder your ability you rip of Granny in a rain storm?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
PPVRA
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
1. If you're banning Uber, you're corrupt. Just a different kind of corrupt not the traditional money under the table stuff.


No, they simply understand what taxi services are for and don´t want that, in many countries essential for mobility, service to be in the hands of people that rip several times the regular fare of a granny on her way to a doctors appointment, just because demand surges during heavy rain.

2. The world needs to throw politicians in jail who think banning Uber is right, then ban them from ever being elected again.


Yes, also please lock up everyone else in the way of profitable crime instead of locking up the criminals....

Drivers are much better off with Uber than shitty Taxi companies.


maybe in shitty countries...

And so are consumers. We are ALL better off with Uber


Nope, we are not. Uber charges MORE from its drivers than regular taxi services, the only way they can, in principle, be cheaper than regular taxis on average is by cutting costs taxis have to bear. You know, those pesky insurance, maintenance requirements, or by paying his drivers worse than taxi companies. Anything else is logically impossible.
Well, it also helps that they are basically picking up 50% of the fare for the passenger at the moment, they make staggering losses after all and only survive via fresh cash inflows like any other criminal Ponzi Scheme. If they charged prices close to break even, Uber wouldn´t even exist anymore, since the average Uber "discount" is nowhere near the 50% they would need to make a profit and be cheaper than regular taxis.
Image

Seems without including a 20% tip for the taxi driver, Uber would be more expensive than Taxis in each of those cities if they charged break even prices. And this table doens´t even include Ubers infamous surge racketeering ...

and Elon Musk than some shitty protectionist ban on innovation because it doesn't fit within outdated regulatory and legal models. And mind you -- outdated ideological models, too.


Since Uber has zero innovations that statement, however true it may be, doesn´t bear on Uber. Just because they successfully duped you in to believing they are innovative doesn´t make it so.

PPVRA wrote:
Just imagine how much more innovation this world would have if people didn't have to break the law to innovate.


Just imagine how much more innovation this world would have if people focused on making better and cheaper products instead of finding new ways to evade taxes taxes, social security systems and so forth in order to make more profits out of the same product.

So, are you an Uber driver disgruntled that Taxi drivers hinder your ability you rip of Granny in a rain storm?

best regards
Thomas


1. You trying to define what a taxi service is, is yet another classic mistake. One that governments and people such as yourself make all the time, and why one can end up with inflexible rules and in a situation where breaking them is the only reasonable course of action for innovation to forge ahead.

2. I haven’t experience surge pricing during rain. But who knows, it may happen at times.

Regardless, surge pricing is important. Much better to have it than not, as it incentivizes greater availability of drivers and cars. Not much use to have “cheap” taxi if it isn’t available, or available in a timely fashion.

Surge pricing is just good management of economic resources and it’s good for everyone, including consumers DESPITE the higher price.

3. More criminals in government trying to profit politically from blocking Uber than in Uber itself.

Uber is a wonderful and innovative service that is gaining more and more popularity and leaving the dinosaur taxi companies in the dustbin, where they belong. It’s a better model for everybody, particularly drivers an consumers.

And no, I don’t drive Uber. Your last statement too demonstrates how illogical you are considering Uber is quite successful during surge pricing and doesn’t no lose business to taxi drivers.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
tommy1808
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:27 pm

PPVRA wrote:
1. You trying to define what a taxi service is, is yet another classic mistake.


I am not trying to define what a taxi service is, there is a definition of taxi services. They are part of essential services, at least here, and like all essential services they are regulated to ensure QoS.

One that governments and people such as yourself make all the time, and why one can end up with inflexible rules


While there certainly are many bs rules around, few of those have to do with taxi services.

Do I want insurance covering commercial use with sufficient coverage to be optional? He'll no.
Do I want maintenance rules to me somewhat stricter on a commercial vehicle than in my private car? Within reason....hell yeah.

and in a situation where breaking them is the only reasonable course of action for innovation to forge ahead.


That is the kicker, there was, at least in Germany, no reason for Uber to break the law, the business model could easily have been implemented within the confines of it. Uber chose to break the law, because they knew they could not have been competitive against taxis without doing so.
After all they plan to get a higher share of the drivers income than taxi services do, that money has to come from somewhere, and if the customer won't pay it, it has to come from not having things like proper insurance and insufficient technical checks.

Regardless, surge pricing is important. Much better to have it than not, as it incentivizes greater availability of drivers and cars.


Surge pricing is fine, as long it doesn't drive taxis out of business by undercutting them, due to lower costs, and driving them out of business, making cheap surge time taxis unavailable.
It's also cute to assume that Uber will remain cheap once they've got a monopoly on taxi services in any area. You charge what you can get for a product or service, not some cost plus X for the improvement of welfare.

Not much use to have “cheap” taxi if it isn’t available, or available in a timely fashion.


Granny usually orders the taxi after she has made the appointment. If I order a taxi for noon tomorrow, there will be a taxi picking me up at noon tomorrow. It would be illegal to charge me surge pricing, or to dump me for a better paid fare. For its purpose as an essential service the cheap taxi is always available. And that means anywhere, even where so few fares exist that no uber has ever been there....

Surge pricing is just good management of economic resources and it’s good for everyone, including consumers DESPITE the higher price.


Well, in Ubers case it is more to increase the revenue potential without investing any money, which would be perfectly fine if they did so within the confines of the law, but they know that no one would be paying the prices required to turn a profit.
Considering how Uber fast Uber loses money, even their illegal business model can't turn a profit, and I have conclusively demonstrated that Uber can't make a profit without being more expensive than taxis.

More criminals in government trying to profit politically from blocking Uber than in Uber itself.


That doesn't even make sense..if Uber is so wonderful for drivers and customers no one should be against it, all taxi drivers would want to be Uber drivers as well after all, so where would the incentive come from? Even if taxi services where against it, they would be far, far outnumbered by pissed of citizens wanting to use wonderful Ubers....

Your statement pretty much debunked your whole point all by itself.

Uber is a wonderful and innovative service


One got to give it to Uber, they fairly successfully duped people into believing they've had innovations outside of evading law enforcement.
Anything Uber does is prior art or was developed by other start ups in parallel independently at the same time. A new businessmodell all by itself is no innovation.

that is gaining more and more popularity and leaving the dinosaur taxi companies in the dustbin, where they belong.


I don't even know people missing Uber outside the internet, even by those that did use it.

It’s a better model for everybody, particularly drivers an consumers.


You have debunked that one all by yourself above.

And no, I don’t drive Uber. Your last statement too demonstrates how illogical you are considering Uber is quite successful during surge pricing and doesn’t no lose business to taxi drivers.
[/quote]

I never claimed it lost them business, I claimed that surge pricing has a pretty hard limit with much cheaper taxis just a longer wait away.

Uber only exists because they keep finding investors pouring fresh money in. In any other but the current extreme low interest rate environment, Uber would have been bankrupt a long time ago. It is basically a ponzi scheme waiting to collapse the moment a high enough percentage of people asks "how will they ever turn profitable considering how they haemorrhage money".

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:33 pm

Tommy - just a note. Surge pricing would work a little better if just about all the extra money went to the driver. The economic and social goal is to attract more people to work just when they are needed.
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PPVRA
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Re: Uber’s Secret Tool for Keeping the Cops in the Dark

Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:09 pm

1. Surge pricing should be norm and taxis should be allowed to use it. Surge pricing aka dynamic pricing is used the world over, including in Europe, in industries such as airlines, hotels, trains.

2. If you want to schedule a ride and have a price determined in advance, then Uber isn't the company for you. Find a competitor and book through them.

3. Granny is going to pay far more for a taxi ride in an environment where Uber isn't allowed to compete.

4. If you don't like riding on random people's car because you don't know how they drive or how they maintain their car, then Uber isn't for you. But that doesn't mean it should be illegal nor does it constitute unfair competition. It's just a different market segment. If you want a professional driver, find a company that offers this.

5. The losses posted by ride-hailing app companies have largely been attributed to aggressive marketing to attract drivers and grow in new markets, as well as discounted fares to attract new customers.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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