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CitizenJustin
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Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:26 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/10/europe/ca ... index.html

According to Catherine, she thinks the #MeToo movememnt is damaging. She also apparently believes a little in office touching and flirting isn’t a big deal and we shouldn’t rush to judgment. I certainly understand where she’s coming from and due process must be upheld, but the problem isn’t that is it? Many of these people have powerful people backing them to make these little incidents go away. Fundamentally, I think creating an environment where they’re no longer able to hide is a good thing. If the justices won’t, the court of public opinion will.

Thoughts?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:59 am

I guess she is welcome to her opinion, and I think we see a cultural difference at play here. I do not think she will have much support from all the women who have been touched and hugged and much more over the years in different countries. Exploitation is the word at play here, not touching and hugging in the office unless one wants this behavior.My guess is many more do not welcome such.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Airstud
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:15 am

A dude resigning three months ago over having literally touched a knee in 2002 is a case of things going too far.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
jetero
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:28 am

She’s right. As is always the case we Americans have some sort of knee jerk self righteous gene and we won’t be satisfied until at least there is the appearance that it’s “resolved.”

But that makes us Americans, I guess
 
Airstud
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:38 am

jetero wrote:
we won’t be satisfied until at least there is the appearance that it’s “resolved.”


This is a human failing; not a peculiarly American one.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
jetero
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:55 am

Airstud wrote:
jetero wrote:
we won’t be satisfied until at least there is the appearance that it’s “resolved.”


This is a human failing; not a peculiarly American one.


Touché.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:37 am

Airstud wrote:
A dude resigning three months ago over having literally touched a knee in 2002 is a case of things going too far.


Who was that??
 
Airstud
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:09 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Airstud wrote:
A dude resigning three months ago over having literally touched a knee in 2002 is a case of things going too far.


Who was that??


It's in the article the OP linked to:

"This comment is a clear reference to the resignation of former UK Defense Secretary Michael Fallon, who stepped down in November after admitting to touching journalist Julia Hartley-Brewer's knee in 2002."
Pancakes are delicious.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:30 am

Airstud wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Airstud wrote:
A dude resigning three months ago over having literally touched a knee in 2002 is a case of things going too far.


Who was that??


It's in the article the OP linked to:

"This comment is a clear reference to the resignation of former UK Defense Secretary Michael Fallon, who stepped down in November after admitting to touching journalist Julia Hartley-Brewer's knee in 2002."

Interestingly Julia Harley-Brewer basically said she wasn't that bothered that he had touched her leg and when she told him not to he stopped, it seems he left because of the baying crowds rather than her thinking it was so wrong. I think people should be treated with respect and reasonable decency. Its not nice to be touched if you don't want to be touched, its also not nice to be accused of sexual assault when you made an error.

Edit: the issue is around the confidence to say what is and isn't acceptable and if you don't want someone to do something then they should stop and no malice felt. Unfortunately not all people are as forthright and confident as Julia Hartley-Brewer in these matters and this is where the difficulty lies in that all people are different.

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Flighty
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:54 pm

Rape an sexual assault are wrong and should not be tolerated. Sexual harassment is wrong and should be opposed.

And that is where it ends.

By contrast, "unwanted sexual advance," "unwanted attention" is not a crime and has never been a crime. Asking someone out on a date, or proposing romance or a relationship is not necessarily immoral, unless it truly becomes harassment, or retaliation occurs.

Nearly all of us exist SOLELY because somebody made a sexual advance on somebody else. Sex and flirtation is not evil. If sexual advances are immoral than all human beings exist as a result of immorality. And we each need to stand up and say, "I am an abomination."

Sex does not constitute a "hostile environment." Rape, sexual assault or sexual harassment constitute a hostile environment.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:57 pm

Airstud wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Airstud wrote:
A dude resigning three months ago over having literally touched a knee in 2002 is a case of things going too far.


Who was that??


It's in the article the OP linked to:

"This comment is a clear reference to the resignation of former UK Defense Secretary Michael Fallon, who stepped down in November after admitting to touching journalist Julia Hartley-Brewer's knee in 2002."


To be fair, it seems there may be more than just that one incident:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... harassment
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 34991.html
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Tugger
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 pm

Flighty wrote:
Rape an sexual assault are wrong and should not be tolerated. Sexual harassment is wrong and should be opposed.

And that is where it ends.

By contrast, "unwanted sexual advance," "unwanted attention" is not a crime and has never been a crime. Asking someone out on a date, or proposing romance or a relationship is not necessarily immoral, unless it truly becomes harassment, or retaliation occurs.

Nearly all of us exist SOLELY because somebody made a sexual advance on somebody else. Sex and flirtation is not evil. If sexual advances are immoral than all human beings exist as a result of immorality. And we each need to stand up and say, "I am an abomination."

Sex does not constitute a "hostile environment." Rape, sexual assault or sexual harassment constitute a hostile environment.

While I agree 100% in general, the difficult (and annoying) part comes in when a paerson receiving an "unwanted sexual advance" or "unwanted attention" is concerned that saying "no" could lead to repercussions like no help at work, or someone saying mean things about you to others. These are perfectly normal reactions to being rejected, so it is not an inaccurate thing to be concerned with. Then there is the fact hat some peopel are horribly shy or feel put-upon by the littlest encroachment into their space, or some may have had prior experiences that have made any such advance more difficult. There is no easy way to draw a line which creates the situations we have now.

Basically it ends being a guessing and sympathy game, who do we like more, which sounds more agreeable/reasonable etc. Should one person just had some normal level of courage or do we not require people to have to say "no". Should people need to be made uncomfortable by what I consider a normal part of life? Right now basically any accusation is believed and it is up to the accused to prove innocence etc. and god forbid if more than one person comes forward.

Again I am just speaking of what is nominally considered the "normal dating ritual" not serious, constant abusive behavior that very much affects and can harm people.

Tugg
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Aesma
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:57 am

She's not alone, 100 women signed the manifesto.

There is no doubt in my mind that the failing of the #metoo movement (in France it was not called that, but another more nasty one) was that it didn't actually achieve anything. If you have been wronged, go to the police, or at least call the name of the perpetrator and be ready for the response.

Also, if someone is doing something you feel is inappropriate, just say so. Most men aren't predators and might not realize they were doing something inappropriate. Especially in France, it's almost expected for men to be somewhat flirtatious with women, in all circumstances.

Several French actresses have said that Weinstein had tried to have his way with them, however none has accused him of rape. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that in fact several other actresses have slept with him, willingly, and are not now calling it rape.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:38 pm

Aesma wrote:

Several French actresses have said that Weinstein had tried to have his way with them, however none has accused him of rape. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that in fact several other actresses have slept with him, willingly, and are not now calling it rape.


I bet some of the women who willingly slept with him are now calling it rape as well.

And now James Franco is in the firing line, how come now, instead of last year, he was famous them as well as now??
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:42 pm

Rape, sexual assault, hostile work environments, harassment, and blackmail are all disgusting and should be punished accordingly.

That being said, I don't like the current witch hunt going on. Those who are lying or stretching the truth are making it harder and harder for real victims to come out and get justice.
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apodino
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:33 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Rape, sexual assault, hostile work environments, harassment, and blackmail are all disgusting and should be punished accordingly.

That being said, I don't like the current witch hunt going on. Those who are lying or stretching the truth are making it harder and harder for real victims to come out and get justice.

One other consequence is men don't feel like asking women on dates anymore, or stuff like that. Which leads to more of us being lonely and single. In Germany for example, women have to hit on Men because men just don't pursue women there anymore. Is that healthy?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:01 pm

apodino wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Rape, sexual assault, hostile work environments, harassment, and blackmail are all disgusting and should be punished accordingly.

That being said, I don't like the current witch hunt going on. Those who are lying or stretching the truth are making it harder and harder for real victims to come out and get justice.

One other consequence is men don't feel like asking women on dates anymore, or stuff like that. Which leads to more of us being lonely and single. In Germany for example, women have to hit on Men because men just don't pursue women there anymore. Is that healthy?

What could be an interesting outcome is if that actually did happen and men no longer were the "pursuers" and instead women became that. It would turn the whole issue on its head as women would then be coming on to men who may not want it.

Personally I doubt that will happen, but honestly I don't see anything wrong with putting the shoe on the other foot, as it were. Of course the whole modern evolution of machismo would complain about emasculation etc. blah, blah, blah....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:05 pm

apodino wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Rape, sexual assault, hostile work environments, harassment, and blackmail are all disgusting and should be punished accordingly.

That being said, I don't like the current witch hunt going on. Those who are lying or stretching the truth are making it harder and harder for real victims to come out and get justice.

One other consequence is men don't feel like asking women on dates anymore, or stuff like that. Which leads to more of us being lonely and single. In Germany for example, women have to hit on Men because men just don't pursue women there anymore. Is that healthy?


Yep, that's another consequence of this entire thing, I am seeing more and more men even afraid to hang out/talk with women due to this.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
jetero
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Re: Catherine Deneuve denounces #MeToo moveme

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:58 am

Super80Fan wrote:
apodino wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Rape, sexual assault, hostile work environments, harassment, and blackmail are all disgusting and should be punished accordingly.

That being said, I don't like the current witch hunt going on. Those who are lying or stretching the truth are making it harder and harder for real victims to come out and get justice.

One other consequence is men don't feel like asking women on dates anymore, or stuff like that. Which leads to more of us being lonely and single. In Germany for example, women have to hit on Men because men just don't pursue women there anymore. Is that healthy?


Yep, that's another consequence of this entire thing, I am seeing more and more men even afraid to hang out/talk with women due to this.


What losers they must be.

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