http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... f#comments

I didn't follow or even know about this story until today. I watched the video and cannot beleive this cop isn't on death row. He just kept barking commands and waited until the victim didn't get it exactly right and then pumped 5 bullets into him. In all that time not a single cop could've approach and tasered or somehow pinned this guy's arms down?

This is one of the most disturbing and repulsive videos I've ever watched. It simply beggars belief that a jury let this murderer go. I don't see what else the prosecution had to do except open and close with "roll the tape".

I'm sure Trump will be in a Twitter rage about this terrible miscarriage of justice, because he seems hot on that sort of thing....

I think he's waiting on Fox but both must be very confused with the victim being white. First thought: "oh yeah baby, read the badge and eat my lead." Second thought: "mommy, that guy looks white, how am I supposed to feel?". When the law enforcement death squad wing of the GOP goes into conflict with NRA principles it becomes a real conundrum. I suppose if the hooker had been 14 this guy could've run for the Senate if they hadn't killed him. It's all that's left my friend, trying to find whatever sorry humor we can amidst all the carnage.

Well as they said in the other thread “Maricopa jury...’nuff said.” Same place where Arpaio ran his concentration camp and band of senile brown shirts keeping the non whites in line...

I've seen other police shootings but the calculated manner in which this cop killed someone is exceptionally repulsive. He had minutes to come to the realization that every human with just a little common sense would make: this guy isn't a threat. As non-American i can't comprehend how it's possible to find 1, let alone 12 unanimous 'citizens' to clear this guy of murder.

I hope karma does exist and this guy has a miserable life.

Any chance of a federal case?

Jetty wrote:

Any chance of a federal case?

Not with Jeff Sessions as AG.

MaverickM11 wrote:

Same place where Arpaio ran his concentration camp and band of senile brown shirts keeping the non whites in line...

And the same place as where bailiffs steal from defense attorneys during court proceedings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIoyJ-LyAaE

The cop had the phrase "you're fucked" engraved on his weapon. I think it's clear he lived for this opportunity.

I saw mistakes on both sides but my question is why did he make this guy do the crawl? All he had to do is tell him to get down on his face and stay there until back up arrived then keep your gun on him and let your partner disarm him if he has a weapon. Total incompetence on the police and yes I have a problem with police being given a free pass all the time. They have a tough job but too many punks with a badge with poor training giving the good ones a bad name. This should be a training video at the very least in not what to do.

stratosphere wrote:

This should be a training video at the very least in not what to do.

With what they're trained to do it might even be OK:
- Possible shooter at the scene;
- Suspect not following (unnecessary complicated) instructions;
- Suspect reaching for his waist;
= Justified shooting according to the manual.

The problem is that common sense and human decency should prevail over rigid training, and normally they do. No amount of training can make a sociopath a good cop.

why did he make this guy do the crawl?

If there would have actually been a shooter he might still be in the room, so I guess they wanted to get him away from the door so they couldn't be ambushed.

wingman wrote:

I didn't follow or even know about this story until today. I watched the video and cannot beleive this cop isn't on death row. He just kept barking commands and waited until the victim didn't get it exactly right and then pumped 5 bullets into him. In all that time not a single cop could've approach and tasered or somehow pinned this guy's arms down? .

There was no need for the police to even use a taser. The video clearly shows Shaver cooperating with the police. He was laying totally flay on the ground with his hands and feet interlocked. The police then ordered him to move forward and opened fire when they didn't like his movements. The contradicting and confusing orders the police barked at Shaver amounted to a lethal game of Simon Says.

The video is truly horrific and depicts a gross miscarriage of justice.

It's bad training and he did make a move he shouldn't off. He reached behind him in a manner consistent with going for a gun. I have always been against the crawling toward the officers. I think you lose control of the situation and prefer to have the suspect flat with hands splayed away from body so the police can approach where they are controlling the situation. Also yelling orders I think escalates things. I think the orders should be more professional then if the suspect moves his hands you give one order and if no comply then you have to shoot. It's part of police work.

NIKV69 wrote:

It's bad training and he did make a move he shouldn't off. He reached behind him in a manner consistent with going for a gun. I have always been against the crawling toward the officers. I think you lose control of the situation and prefer to have the suspect flat with hands splayed away from body so the police can approach where they are controlling the situation. Also yelling orders I think escalates things. I think the orders should be more professional then if the suspect moves his hands you give one order and if no comply then you have to shoot. It's part of police work.

In any normal country there wouldn't even have been a gun pointed at the poor guy. This is North Korean territory America has entered. I really can't believe what I've just seen, how on the green good earth we live on can something like this happen?

I'd like to see that cop on the receiving end of the gun and try to do the same instructions without one mistake. 100% guaranteed he would be shot in five seconds.

I believe that the vast, vast majority of our police men and women are decent human beings trying to do their best with limited resources and limited support. I've gone to bat for various policemen in this and other forums.

But this is absolutely disgusting.

The whole reason for putting cameras on policemen is to make sure that justice is served, regardless of which side gets punished as a result. This is just sickening...

NIKV69 wrote:

It's bad training and he did make a move he shouldn't off. He reached behind him in a manner consistent with going for a gun. .

The video shows Shaver's right hand for the entire motion to his waist and back. It was not a rapid motion and they had line-of-sight to see that he had no weapon. At the moment shots are fired, his hand is already returning to the floor. It was a total overreaction.

The officer who fired had previous issues with excessive force and had "You're F***ed" etched on his rifle. If the attitude and temperament of those officers are representative of the police in 2017, then they can kindly not serve in my community. That sort of service is not required, please and thank you.

[*]ii

scbriml wrote:

I'm sure Trump will be in a Twitter rage about this terrible miscarriage of justice, because he seems hot on that sort of thing....

And in this instance he would be justified and quite right to do so.

I’m shocked that a jury of 12 people could come to the decision they made, I hope is karma gets them all along with the cop and his scumbag lawyer.

Redd wrote:

In any normal country there wouldn't even have been a gun pointed at the poor guy. This is North Korean territory America has entered. I really can't believe what I've just seen, how on the green good earth we live on can something like this happen?

Not sure what a "normal country" is but when police in my country are responding to an unknown situation they are trained to have guns drawn. This is for their protection. You need to listen to commands and do what they tell you. In North Korea you would have already been dead but this suspect made the wrong move. Was the officer that shot wrong? That is tough to answer but he probably should not have been on the force or retrained. Again I wish all police in the US would abandon this crawl toward me tactic and the yelling orders in a threatening manner as well. It just confuses and escalates the encounter.

DfwRevolution wrote:

The video shows Shaver's right hand for the entire motion to his waist and back. It was not a rapid motion and they had line-of-sight to see that he had no weapon. At the moment shots are fired, his hand is already returning to the floor. It was a total overreaction.

The officer who fired had previous issues with excessive force and had "You're F***ed" etched on his rifle. If the attitude and temperament of those officers are representative of the police in 2017, then they can kindly not serve in my community. That sort of service is not required, please and thank you.

In these encounters things happens so fast it's hard to second guess. I watched the vid many times and that looked to me like a threatening motion. Would I have fired? Not that fast but this officer did. His history was disturbing and he shoud not be a cop but I think the jury got it right.

Funny how the first replies mentioned Trump, Fox and Maricpoa and Sheriff Joe. More Trump derangement syndrome.

DfwRevolution wrote:

The contradicting and confusing orders the police barked at Shaver amounted to a lethal game of Simon Says.

That's my fear if I were ever to accidentally be in a situation with police. It's not a situation that I'm trained for, and one simply cannot be expected to execute something extremely abnormal in a perfect way without any training.

Gotta give the general public some benefit of doubt in these situations. Police are trained for this. The rest of us aren't.

DfwRevolution wrote:

wingman wrote:

I didn't follow or even know about this story until today. I watched the video and cannot beleive this cop isn't on death row. He just kept barking commands and waited until the victim didn't get it exactly right and then pumped 5 bullets into him. In all that time not a single cop could've approach and tasered or somehow pinned this guy's arms down? .

There was no need for the police to even use a taser. The video clearly shows Shaver cooperating with the police. He was laying totally flay on the ground with his hands and feet interlocked. The police then ordered him to move forward and opened fire when they didn't like his movements. The contradicting and confusing orders the police barked at Shaver amounted to a lethal game of Simon Says.

The video is truly horrific and depicts a gross miscarriage of justice.

Exactly ever see some of the police DUI videos? I mean I couldn't do most of those instructions stone cold sober. Have you seen the pics of this cop? he looks about 15 years old he most certainly has no experience and it shows. Yeah this guy he killed was drunk and made poor decisions and now he is dead. But the cops are supposed to be better than that. I am glad that cop in SC who shot that unarmed guy in the back is getting 20 years that was blatant murder he should have got life but I guess we will have to settle for 20 years.

MaverickM11 wrote:

Well as they said in the other thread “Maricopa jury...’nuff said.” Same place where Arpaio ran his concentration camp and band of senile brown shirts keeping the non whites in line...

Yeah well when I saw MSNBC show the tents in Sheriff Joe's jail there were plenty of whites also there. I for one do not want to make it comfortable for lawbreakers crooks and felons unlike you liberals do. Isn't jail supposed to be a deterrent? If it isn't it should be. But back to this thread yes this cop in my opinion totally handled this wrong. Maybe it was his training I don't know I know there are a lot of cops that abuse the badge especially the young ones like this guy was. The suspect made quite a few mistakes that got him in this but the cops are supposed to be trained and I didn't like the crazy commands the cop gave him. The police could have handled this thing a bunch of better ways than they did. If anything should be gained from this is that they use this as a training video of what NOT to do. And that they never employ this guy as a law enforcement officer again.

Kiwirob wrote:

[*]ii

scbriml wrote:

I'm sure Trump will be in a Twitter rage about this terrible miscarriage of justice, because he seems hot on that sort of thing....

And in this instance he would be justified and quite right to do so.

I’m shocked that a jury of 12 people could come to the decision they made, I hope is karma gets them all along with the cop and his scumbag lawyer.

Strangely enough, I read where the jury consisted of just eight persons.

The young officer (now fired) was the son of a guy already a Mesa cop. So, maybe they had blinders on when this kid was being evaluated for service, and in his training...

Shaver was clearly not sober. He was drunk, even though he appears to answer "no" to the question "Are you drunk?"

I think the Sargent in charge stated he didn't believe Shaver's tears and though he was trying to fool them.

Mesa homicide Detective Paul Sipe told the jury that he became suspicious of the officers' reports when he noticed they omitted "vital information."

Of the five written reports from the officers on the scene, they left out that Shaver had cried and begged not to be shot. That information became public in Sipe's supplemental report released two months after the shooting.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 871689001/

https://heavy.com/news/2017/12/daniel-s ... ideo-full/

The wrongful death suit filed by the family against the City of Mesa may bring the only justice available to them.

NIKV69 wrote:

Not sure what a "normal country" is

I guess any place not in the 50 US states.

further guess: North Korea as a by name core communist country will have a rather civil society.
Nobody is shot on a whim. ( pressure is applied elsewhere. )

All the US citizens so "positively tolerating" of overbearing police behavior should
for once have a look at how this is handled elsewhere.

According to the police report, Brailsford was carrying an AR-15 rifle with the phrase “You’re F—ed” etched into the weapon.

That says it all, really. Nothing more than a paid government thug. What kind of Police department has such lax standards that they allow this kind of attitude/behaviour to exist in their ranks? Mind-boggling unprofessional - some people just have no concept as to what it means to serve.

WIederling wrote:

I guess any place not in the 50 US states.

further guess: North Korea as a by name core communist country will have a rather civil society.
Nobody is shot on a whim. ( pressure is applied elsewhere. )

All the US citizens so "positively tolerating" of overbearing police behavior should
for once have a look at how this is handled elsewhere.

I should of known this was an insult against the US. I don't care how police work is handled outside my country. Thanks anyway.

NIKV69 wrote:

In these encounters things happens so fast it's hard to second guess. I watched the vid many times and that looked to me like a threatening motion. Would I have fired? Not that fast but this officer did. His history was disturbing and he shoud not be a cop but I think the jury got it right.

It happened quickly because the police established criteria for shooting that didn't include producing a weapon.

The police should be second-guessing themselves before shooting a suspect. The rules of engagement should be more stringent for the Good Guys than the Bad Guys. There's been an outpouring from Army and Marine Corps veterans that situation would have violated standing orders for apprehending Al Qaeda suspects. Do we really accept that municipal police officers are afforded more latitude to use lethal force against American citizens than we allow our military in war zone?

Step back and consider the corrosive effect that incidents like this have on our society. My theory on "Why We Got Trump" is partly based on widespread discontent that our governments - federal, state, and local - fail us everyday. We see innocent people like Kathryn Steinle or the Sutherland Springs churchgoers gunned down because bureaucrats either willfully or incompetently fail to enforce our laws. Not only are governments failing at their most basic role of providing law and order, they are contributing to the carnage. Daniel Shaver's death is not an isolated incident. People notice these widespread failures and say "to hell with all of this" and I can't blame them.

WIederling wrote:

further guess: North Korea as a by name core communist country will have a rather civil society.
Nobody is shot on a whim. ( pressure is applied elsewhere. )

What on earth are you talking about? North Korea is one giant national gulag. Maybe you're technically correct that North Korean police don't gun down people because they are partial to execution via anti-aircraft artillery.

We know about Daniel Shaver's death precisely because American society believes in open records and transparency. Nobody thinks the United States is a perfect society, we're just trying harder than anyone else to build one.

NIKV69 wrote:

I should of known this was an insult against the US. I don't care how police work is handled outside my country. Thanks anyway.

Why are you ashamed at how utterly incompetent your police are?

wingman wrote:

I suppose if the hooker had been 14 this guy could've run for the Senate if they hadn't killed him. It's all that's left my friend, trying to find whatever sorry humor we can amidst all the carnage.

The problem with your "humor" is my first reaction was I did not know the girl he was taking shots with in his room was a hooker, not that it would matter. And it turns out, she's not. Not cool to slander a dead man (who was both a father and married man) who can't defend himself, especially when your facts are completely false. Can't you find another way to insult Republicans or people from Alabama?

"On the night of Jan. 18, Shaver, dressed in a black T-shirt and black basketball shorts, encountered Monique Portillo and Luis Nunez of Silver City, N.M., who were in town for a Dollar General training conference, in the elevator and invited them to his room, No. 502, to have shots of liquor, the police records state.
The co-workers joined Shaver in his room. Inside, there were bottles of whiskey and a near-empty Bacardi bottle that Shaver mostly drank, Portillo said."

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... /82403048/

zkojq wrote:

According to the police report, Brailsford was carrying an AR-15 rifle with the phrase “You’re F—ed” etched into the weapon.

That says it all, really. Nothing more than a paid government thug. What kind of Police department has such lax standards that they allow this kind of attitude/behaviour to exist in their ranks? Mind-boggling unprofessional - some people just have no concept as to what it means to serve.

That was actually one of the reasons the PD says he was fired, obviously too late though.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Strangely enough, I read where the jury consisted of just eight persons.

The young officer (now fired) was the son of a guy already a Mesa cop. So, maybe they had blinders on when this kid was being evaluated for service, and in his training...

Shaver was clearly not sober. He was drunk, even though he appears to answer "no" to the question "Are you drunk?"

I think the Sargent in charge stated he didn't believe Shaver's tears and though he was trying to fool them.

Mesa homicide Detective Paul Sipe told the jury that he became suspicious of the officers' reports when he noticed they omitted "vital information."

Of the five written reports from the officers on the scene, they left out that Shaver had cried and begged not to be shot. That information became public in Sipe's supplemental report released two months after the shooting.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 871689001/



https://heavy.com/news/2017/12/daniel-s ... ideo-full/

The wrongful death suit filed by the family against the City of Mesa may bring the only justice available to them.

My two bits, I been following this case since it happened. Some of the information listed below come from some sources inside the department.
It was a eight person jury.
His dad is a former officer and now is an attorney.
This officer was labeled as a poor performer and was in danger of losing his position before the shooting.
The weapon used was his own personal AR-15, why the department allows the use of personal weapons like that, and one doesn't take out a weapon like that for this type of call.
I'm shocked that the Mesa Police Department allowed this guy on the street without wearing long sleeves. Mesa is a strong LDS community, and tattoos are a no-no in their faith.

Kiwirob wrote:

Why are you ashamed at how utterly incompetent your police are?

I am from New Zealand or didn't your hear? LOL otherwise this is flamebait and not going for it.

There are mistakes on all sides, as highlighted earlier in the thread. I think what is being forgotten is personal responsibility. We all enjoy discussing aviation and the proverbial "Swiss cheese." Many holes lined up (in particular the militaristic approach to this situation by police), but I think the biggest hole that opened was a combination of waving a gun (whether pellet or real) out a window while drunk, then when asked if they were intoxicated, they stated they weren't. I was young once, and I screwed up many times, and the thing that sticks in my head is my Dad saying "this would not have happened if you were sober." Don't get me wrong, I love a good drink as much as the next, but its really not that hard to take two minutes before you drink to do things like remove air rifles (or really anything that could be dangerous/look bad from a cop's point of view) from where you will be staying while intoxicated. Just be smart about it (certainly don't wave an air rifle out a window at a hotel). I can't defend the actions of this officer, but I think that if the victim took responsibility and admitted he was inebriated and could not understand instructions to the level that was being demanded of him up front, this would be a very different conversation.

NIKV69 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Why are you ashamed at how utterly incompetent your police are?

I am from New Zealand or didn't your hear? LOL otherwise this is flamebait and not going for it.

I never knew you were one of us, surprising. Anyway in NZ this never would have happened, the police would have sorted it out without violence or if necessary used a dog.

[quote="Kiwirob"][quote="NIKV69"][quote="Kiwirob"]
Why are you ashamed at how utterly incompetent your police are?[/quote]

I am from New Zealand or didn't your hear? LOL otherwise this is flamebait and not going for it. [/quote]

I never knew you were one of us, surprising. Anyway in NZ this never would have happened, the police would have sorted it out without violence or if necessary used a dog.[/quote]

Basically every other police force on this planet would have solved that without violence. Heck, judging by the death is police custody, Russian police would be embarrassed by that.

Best regards
Thomas

Kiwirob wrote:

I never knew you were one of us, surprising. Anyway in NZ this never would have happened, the police would have sorted it out without violence or if necessary used a dog.

It's an inside joke here but another user here thought I was. As for your crystal ball can you tell me if the Patriots win the Super Bowl and if they cover the spread?

meecrob wrote:

There are mistakes on all sides, as highlighted earlier in the thread. I think what is being forgotten is personal responsibility.

If you are willing to concede even an inch to cops that kill unarmed people that are drunk and stupid you might as well announce a new type of holocaust because we'd have about 40MM dead inside a year. Spring Break alone would be an utter bloodbath. You could just drop MOABs all over South Florida and New Orleans for better efficiency.

Come on man, this ex cop deserves nothing less than 30 years in SuperMax. Watch the tape, zero debate.

What I saw was someone getting overloaded with commands and then getting confused and losing focus, eventually putting himself in a position of suspicion.

Only in America can you die for being bad at playing Simon Says.