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Scorpius wrote:There is not no law, no justice.
Scorpius wrote:I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.
ltbewr wrote:As to the USA and others countries, there have been individual athletes caught and punished. For the USA we for sure have own issues. Our Major League Baseball had an extremely serious problem with PED's in the 1990's and until a few years ago. In part it was encouraged by a strike in the early 1990's by players/shutout by owners and a need to recover so pretty much every one winked at PED's to get more scoring, especially home runs. Eventually it went too far, causing problems for players health and an extremely unfair playing field so testing regimens for PED's were put in, players punished with extensive suspension from play and payment. The National Football League also put in strict testing regimens and penalties for PED's as some players or ex-players were having serious health problems from them.
We have also seen serious problems with PED's in a number of sports from competitors from around the world, including the USA, especially Cycling, Weightlifting, Track and Field, even tennis and x-country skiing where improvements in testing and strict punishments have happened.
At some point Russia and other countries have to change there attitudes toward PED's or face the shame of bans from competition such as with the upcoming Olympics.
Scorpius wrote:ltbewr wrote:As to the USA and others countries, there have been individual athletes caught and punished. For the USA we for sure have own issues. Our Major League Baseball had an extremely serious problem with PED's in the 1990's and until a few years ago. In part it was encouraged by a strike in the early 1990's by players/shutout by owners and a need to recover so pretty much every one winked at PED's to get more scoring, especially home runs. Eventually it went too far, causing problems for players health and an extremely unfair playing field so testing regimens for PED's were put in, players punished with extensive suspension from play and payment. The National Football League also put in strict testing regimens and penalties for PED's as some players or ex-players were having serious health problems from them.
We have also seen serious problems with PED's in a number of sports from competitors from around the world, including the USA, especially Cycling, Weightlifting, Track and Field, even tennis and x-country skiing where improvements in testing and strict punishments have happened.
At some point Russia and other countries have to change there attitudes toward PED's or face the shame of bans from competition such as with the upcoming Olympics.
We see two things:
1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia
What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?
Just say "Yes, we want to humiliate Russia by any means and it will bring politics into the Olympic movement."
I recall that was already the Olympics without the Soviet Union in 1934. Olympics in Pyeongchang will be associated with it.
Scorpius wrote:We see two things:
1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia
What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?
scbriml wrote:Scorpius wrote:We see two things:
1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia
What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?
But you ignore one little difference - individual athletes from other counties cheat and are individually punished when caught.
Russia cheats as a nation and is subsequently banned as a nation.
Which part of that are you having difficulty understanding? Perhaps it isn't a lack of understand but simply denial?
Scorpius wrote:scbriml wrote:Scorpius wrote:We see two things:
1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia
What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?
But you ignore one little difference - individual athletes from other counties cheat and are individually punished when caught.
Russia cheats as a nation and is subsequently banned as a nation.
Which part of that are you having difficulty understanding? Perhaps it isn't a lack of understand but simply denial?
What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment? I have no doubt that Western countries have reached the pinnacle of the art of lying, but don't be surprised then that nobody believes you.
Scorpius wrote:What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?
Scorpius wrote:What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?
scbriml wrote:Scorpius wrote:What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?
So which American and Norwegian athletes have been caught taking performance enhancing drugs and haven't been punished? Name names.
Scorpius wrote:scbriml wrote:Scorpius wrote:So which American and Norwegian athletes have been caught taking performance enhancing drugs and haven't been punished? Name names.What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?
Martin Johnsrud Sundby, Marit Bjørgen, Maiken Caspersen Falla, Ole Einar Bjørndalen, Emil Hegle Svendsen, etc.
And it is only those names that are known.
Scorpius wrote:Martin Johnsrud Sundby
Scorpius wrote:And one more thing - what do you think about the suspension of Russian athletes for the presence of Meldonium in those samples, which were taken when Meldonium was not yet a banned substance? You do not bother?
scbriml wrote:Scorpius wrote:There is not no law, no justice.
There is law, the Russians broke it. There is justice, the Russians are banned.Scorpius wrote:I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.
Don't spoil your vodka with your salty tears.
Scorpius wrote:And one more thing - what do you think about the suspension of Russian athletes for the presence of Meldonium in those samples, which were taken when Meldonium was not yet a banned substance? You do not bother?
anrec80 wrote:This works like a charm in relations with EU, Council of Europe, this situation with sanctions - now all EU is all over Moscow looking for the way out if this Ukrainian mess. And when Russians said they'd stop recognizing Human Rights Court's authority - that triggered talks about lifting sanctions.
anrec80 wrote:Russia should also do more of what USA (and China mostly for this reason) does - be in organizations they either can control (NATO, our Olympic movement falls into this bucket), or in organizations they aren't constrained by (UN, WTO, Pacific regional ones really), where nothing is impacted by decisions made there. If you aren't treated equally and fairly - there is nothing wrong with not taking part in such events.
anrec80 wrote:scbriml wrote:Scorpius wrote:There is not no law, no justice.
There is law, the Russians broke it. There is justice, the Russians are banned.Scorpius wrote:I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.
Don't spoil your vodka with your salty tears.
There is nothing to spoil vodka with, don't worry. What's there to cry after?
Collective punishment isn't justice. Neither is re-shuffling hard earned and hard won medals because someone saw a scratch somewhere, or just ended up in some list of someone with a reputation far from stellar. Which is a bigger problem.
If you want an athlete to compete somewhere, they, and their supporters, need to have 100% confidence that they will be judged honestly, and treated equally and fairly. Which is no longer the case as you can see. Ask yourself this - what's the value of this award if you didn't win it in honest competition with your strongest competitor, but instead that competitor was eliminated or put into disadvantage by the means having nothing to do with sports?
Hence, expectedly, you will have fewer people watching this competition and supporting competitors. As the result of this decision, there will be no TV translations of these Olympics in Russia - because there is no interest in Russian society to this Olympic movement. As the result, their best athletes will switch to other competition sites - new and existing, where their basic right for judgement can be respected better. Other competitions will take hearts and minds of Russian sports fans. 1-2 more seasons like this, and it'll take a lot of time for this movement to regain its place in Russian hearts and minds. Yes, there will be some adjustment period for athletes, but at the end - the Olympic movement will be at loss, and more nations may follow.
Dutchy wrote:Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.
Aesma wrote:Has Russia the country recognized there was a doping program ? No, they assassinated the whistle blowers. And you're surprised they get banned ? Wake up to reality.
Dutchy wrote:Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.
anrec80 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.
Ok - so now you are saying the participation in Olympic movement has to do whether one is a super power or not. While Olympic movement was intended to be away from politics. Are you saying that this has failed? And - are you essentially admitting that the whole scandal is political? And would not have happened if it was the US to be suspected in anything like this?
anrec80 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.
Likely to work. To prosper, this IOC needs TV exposure, audience, fan base and participants of course. Russia is a huge market and source of all that. Hence the IOC leadership will run around Russia in no time. Why do you think they didn't ban Russia entirely? For exactly these reasons.
Dutchy wrote:anrec80 wrote:This works like a charm in relations with EU, Council of Europe, this situation with sanctions - now all EU is all over Moscow looking for the way out if this Ukrainian mess. And when Russians said they'd stop recognizing Human Rights Court's authority - that triggered talks about lifting sanctions.
Please back up this statement.
Dutchy wrote:
Please back up this statement.
anrec80 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
Please back up this statement.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-fears-c ... 82603.html
Here you are.
IOC bans six Russian female ice hockey players for life over doping
Dutchy wrote:Another six Russians caught cheating:IOC bans six Russian female ice hockey players for life over doping
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/spo ... 041297.cms
Dutchy wrote:Yes, but other athletes are also caught. The question is if the athletes were in the Russian government sponsored doping program or did it on their own.
MSPbrandon wrote:A Russian guy got busted for doping in curlering?!?! In mixed doubles?!?! This Russian guy was competing against women in the most physically unchallenging event in the Olympics and he has to cheat?2 Russians have tested positive for doping AGAIN in this Olympics
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... -drug-test
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2 ... -of-doping
anrec80 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Yes, but other athletes are also caught. The question is if the athletes were in the Russian government sponsored doping program or did it on their own.
You are still talking about that legend of "government sponsored program"?
Aesma wrote:When a country places too much importance into "showing off" to others,
WIederling wrote:Aesma wrote:When a country places too much importance into "showing off" to others,
The US has fixed this via prescribing for health reason substances that are in the catalog of doping agents. Shrug.
We've also seen false or fake accusations.
Speed Skater Claudia Pechstein is one of those.
Yasuhiro Suzuki an example from the sinister side of things.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... iro-suzuki
WIederling wrote:Dutchy wrote:not the same as a state-sponsored doping program, or a country placing importance on sports for national pride.
You can not imagine a state ( guess which) sponsored incrimination campaign?
naive!
Dutchy wrote:not the same as a state-sponsored doping program, or a country placing importance on sports for national pride.
Caryjack wrote:MSPbrandon wrote:A Russian guy got busted for doping in curlering?!?! In mixed doubles?!?! This Russian guy was competing against women in the most physically unchallenging event in the Olympics and he has to cheat?2 Russians have tested positive for doping AGAIN in this Olympics
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... -drug-test
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2 ... -of-doping
It's systemic; Russians just must cheat...lawn darts, bowling, checkers???...whatever....It's just their nature: It’s in their blood. Pathetic.
Aesma wrote:When a country places too much importance into "showing off" to others, this is what happens. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that China also has a similar program, albeit with 10 times the budget and more advanced drugs.
In the case of China though, they used other means to win a lot, so it's possible it doesn't involve drugs. Instead they just take thousands of poor children and train them like little slaves for years.
Kiwirob wrote:Caryjack wrote:MSPbrandon wrote:A Russian guy got busted for doping in curlering?!?! In mixed doubles?!?! This Russian guy was competing against women in the most physically unchallenging event in the Olympics and he has to cheat?2 Russians have tested positive for doping AGAIN in this Olympics
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... -drug-test
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2 ... -of-doping
It's systemic; Russians just must cheat...lawn darts, bowling, checkers???...whatever....It's just their nature: It’s in their blood. Pathetic.
What I don’t get is all the Russian athletes had to be extensively tested before they were allowed to complete in these games, so either WADA fucked up or this athlete took something between the testing and the games starting, which given the sport doesn’t make sense.
Aesma wrote:When a country places too much importance into "showing off" to others,
Dutchy wrote:Haha, Tu204, doing the "everybody is against the poor innocent Russia" routine again.
Russians are welcome to cream anyone, as long as they follow the same rules, if not, medals stripped and not participating. Yeah I know, my Kamrade, it is so unfair that Russia isn't allowed to bend the rules in their favor.
I call that pathetic for a proud country, not overcoming the level of thinking of a toddler.