WarRI1 wrote:

Good, they are and always have been cheaters. I hope you know who stays out of it.

LittleFokker wrote:

I'm surprised he doesn't already have a "Fake News" tweet out already proclaiming the IOC's investigation a total disaster and fraud.

ltbewr wrote:

I guess Putin and his oligarch friends didn't give large enough bribes to IOC officials
I suspect Russia will appeal this, likely going nowhere.
I do feel sorry for those athletes who are clean, worked hard for the Olympics and can't participate for themselves and nation that supported them. Some will be allowed to compete in the IOC deal but no national team officials will be allowed, in outfits without reference to Russia and if win a medal, not under Russia, or a Russia flag and no Russian National Anthem. Let's face it too, many other countries including the USA, has cheating athletes but that Russia was so bad in recent past Olympics they had to be cracked down on.

ltbewr wrote:

I guess Putin and his oligarch friends didn't give large enough bribes to IOC officials
I suspect Russia will appeal this, likely going nowhere.
I do feel sorry for those athletes who are clean, worked hard for the Olympics and can't participate for themselves and nation that supported them. Some will be allowed to compete in the IOC deal but no national team officials will be allowed, in outfits without reference to Russia and if win a medal, not under Russia, or a Russia flag and no Russian National Anthem. Let's face it too, many other countries including the USA, has cheating athletes but that Russia was so bad in recent past Olympics they had to be cracked down on.

tu204 wrote:

Keeping sports out of politics? Yeah...right.

anrec80 wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

I guess Putin and his oligarch friends didn't give large enough bribes to IOC officials
I suspect Russia will appeal this, likely going nowhere.
I do feel sorry for those athletes who are clean, worked hard for the Olympics and can't participate for themselves and nation that supported them. Some will be allowed to compete in the IOC deal but no national team officials will be allowed, in outfits without reference to Russia and if win a medal, not under Russia, or a Russia flag and no Russian National Anthem. Let's face it too, many other countries including the USA, has cheating athletes but that Russia was so bad in recent past Olympics they had to be cracked down on.

There was no bribes - this whole thing is well over-bloated. All that was there in essence - a small dirty deeds by 2-3 corrupted officials, one of whom ran away later (perhaps seeing his reputation shattering and perhaps even investigation closing in) and became the "informer". Deeds such as sales of doping bundled with cover-up services. It's impossible to tell if really any athletes used those services, and what impact did that have. These dudes had their proceedings against them. Latest Schmid's report denied that high-ranking Russian state officials were covering this fun stuff up or even aware of such "schemes". Main question is - where was WADA back in Sochi?

All these "re-tests" and medal shuffle years later doesn't really have any credibility. What's the value of a medal if an athlete didn't win it, but instead got it at some later point some political way? Same comes about the medal, when your perhaps strongest competitor wasn't competing for non-sports-related reasons. Also - "Putin and his oligarch friends" for the past 15 years did a lot to popularize this Olympic movement - investing into athlete training, facilities, promotion inside the country, huge investments into Sochi Olympics last but not least. Now Russian TV, expectedly, won't translate these games, which is a HUGE loss to the sponsors and advertisement - it's a 150 million country, and Olympics there really are #1 international competition. Now in Russian society the value of Olympics, their medals, reputation overall is shattered considerably. Will Russians re-gain interest to Olympics again? Will they even want to send there their strongest athletes? Will the state want to again invest into it? It's hard to know. Other countries are asking the same questions too. Olympics aren't the only international sports event, and over time sports fans will know - while this can be a bigger budget event, the best athletes can be found elsewhere. So - a huge blow to the Olympic movement.

B777LRF wrote:

Great, now let's see what FIFA does about the 2018 World Cup. Would be a tad problematic excluding Russia from that event, as they're the host. And this is FIFA, probably the only sporting organisation more corrupt than IOC.

tu204 wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

I guess Putin and his oligarch friends didn't give large enough bribes to IOC officials
I suspect Russia will appeal this, likely going nowhere.
I do feel sorry for those athletes who are clean, worked hard for the Olympics and can't participate for themselves and nation that supported them. Some will be allowed to compete in the IOC deal but no national team officials will be allowed, in outfits without reference to Russia and if win a medal, not under Russia, or a Russia flag and no Russian National Anthem. Let's face it too, many other countries including the USA, has cheating athletes but that Russia was so bad in recent past Olympics they had to be cracked down on.

I would be very surpised if any Russian athletes participate. It will be a full boycott by Russia. Including the entire KHL. The league has stated that they will ban all their players from participating - Russian and foreigners.
So there will be no Team Russia, no players from the NHL or KHL. Feel sorry for anyone who bought tickets in advance to watch Olympics hockey.

Keeping sports out of politics? Yeah...right.

B777LRF wrote:

Great, now let's see what FIFA does about the 2018 World Cup. Would be a tad problematic excluding Russia from that event, as they're the host. And this is FIFA, probably the only sporting organisation more corrupt than IOC.

tu204 wrote:

I would be very surpised if any Russian athletes participate. It will be a full boycott by Russia. Including the entire KHL. The league has stated that they will ban all their players from participating - Russian and foreigners.
So there will be no Team Russia, no players from the NHL or KHL. Feel sorry for anyone who bought tickets in advance to watch Olympics hockey.

"Without a doubt, will not announce any obstacles, we won’t stop our Olympians from taking part, if someone wants to take part in a personal capacity,” Putin was cited as saying by the Interfax news agency.

This is very important for them," he added. "Based on these considerations, of course, we will not forbid anything to anyone, block anything, making any impossible conditions for participation."

WIederling wrote:

This is rather amusing in context of US "sportspeople" getting the same or similar doping administered.
Only it is cloaked as "medically neccessary medication".
http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/dopin ... 23934.html
use google translate

Interesting to see how far people that have no concept of "limited" competition go to "win". hollow.

Scorpius wrote:

The next step is to discredit the Olympic movement.
Athletes from the United States to forgive the doping and drugs, give the baton to cross without rivals, and otherwise push through them in the first place, the jury is constantly trying to help athletes from the United States, putting them higher scores than deserved.
At the same time Russian athletes suspended because of the presence in their samples Meldonium, which at the time of taking these samples were not prohibited. Or unconfirmed testimony.
It is not related neither to the honor nor to the laws - just admit it already that now the IOC is a tool designed to diminish the rating of Russia.

Tugger wrote:

Scorpius wrote:

The next step is to discredit the Olympic movement.
Athletes from the United States to forgive the doping and drugs, give the baton to cross without rivals, and otherwise push through them in the first place, the jury is constantly trying to help athletes from the United States, putting them higher scores than deserved.
At the same time Russian athletes suspended because of the presence in their samples Meldonium, which at the time of taking these samples were not prohibited. Or unconfirmed testimony.
It is not related neither to the honor nor to the laws - just admit it already that now the IOC is a tool designed to diminish the rating of Russia.

Quite the inferiority complex you have there.

You should not worry so. Russia is a great country, with a lot of wonderful people, it is the fools that lead and advise and guide the ROC that that are the problem.

So don't despair, your fear of Russia's failings and inferiority are misguided.

Tugg

Scorpius wrote:

terrible Russian tennis player using doping


great American tennis player, has never used doping:


As if to confuse them.

Dutchy wrote:

Scorpius wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

So you are digging up an article from 2016, unrelated to this.
- athletes asked for permission, Therapeutic Use Exemption

Russian athletes were in a doping program and the authorities build a hole in the wall in order to help them cheat the doping test they were conducting and the FSB helped. Classic whataboutism. Russia very bad, individual American athletes a bit bad. It is not the same.

Do you have an opinion on Russian athletes and their controlling agencies cheating which resulted in an Olympic ban?

- athletes asked for permission, Therapeutic Use Exemption

If you have health problems - what are you doing at the Olympics? Participate in the Paralympic games. Oh, come on - you know perfectly well that it's all bullshit. Just some athletes take "the correct dope", but for others the same doping declared "wrong". It's called "double standards".

Still defending the indefencible I see.

What double standards? Russian athletes could do and do the same, so same circumstances, same rules.

Perhaps you are now ready to answer the outstanding question, where do you get your information from?

Kiwirob wrote:

How many Russian winter athletes have been pinged for doping, not many, certainly not as many as the summer athletes. I’m also waiting on the IOC and WADA to have a through investigation of Norway cross country programme, the dominance of Norway in this sport doesn’t sit right with me, considering there are other surrounding nations with similar winters and also passionate about the sport.

In December 2014, German public broadcaster ARD aired a documentary which made wide-ranging allegations that Russia organized a state-run doping program which supplied their athletes with performance-enhancing drugs.[33] In November 2015, Russia's track and field team was provisionally suspended by the IAAF.[34]

In May 2016, The New York Times published allegations by the former director of Russia's anti-doping laboratory, Grigory Rodchenkov, that a conspiracy of corrupt anti-doping officials, FSB intelligence agents, and compliant Russian athletes used banned substances to gain an unfair advantage during the Games.[35] Rodchenkov stated that the FSB tampered with over 100 urine samples as part of a cover-up, and that a third of the Russian medals won at Sochi were the result of doping.[35][36][37][38]

In December 2016, The New York Times reported that senior Russian officials carried out one of the biggest conspiracies in sports history — a far-reaching doping operation that implicated scores of Russian athletes and tainted not just the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi but also the entire Olympic movement. It was confirmed that a lab director tampered with urine samples at the Olympics and provided cocktails of performance-enhancing drugs, corrupting some of the world’s most prestigious competitions. Members of the Federal Security Service (a successor to the K.G.B.) broke into sample bottles holding urine. In addition, a deputy sports minister for years ordered cover-ups of top athletes’ use of banned substances. Anna Antseliovich, the acting director general of Russia’s national antidoping agency characterized Russia's cheating program as an "institutional conspiracy.”[39] She later confirmed that her words were "taken out of context" and "distorted".[40] However, Russia continued to deny any involvement of the state.[41]

In December, 2016, following the release of the McLaren report on Russian doping at the Sochi Olympics, the International Olympic Committee announced the initiation of an investigation of 28 Russian athletes at the Sochi Olympic Games. La Gazzetta dello Sport reported the names of 17 athletes, of whom 15 are among the 28 under investigation.[42][43] The Russian team potentially could be stripped of up to 12 Olympic medals.

Three ladies artistic skaters were named as being under investigation. They are Adelina Sotnikova, the singles gold medalist, as well as pairs skaters Tatiana Volosozhar and Ksenia Stolbova. Volosozhar and Stolbova won gold and silver medals, respectively, in pairs skating. Both also won gold medals in the team event, which also puts the other eight team medalists at risk of losing their golds.

Six skiers were suspended from competition on the basis of the McLaren report: Evgeniy Belov, Alexander Legkov, Alexey Petukhov, Maxim Vylegzhanin, Yulia Ivanova, and Yevgeniya Shapovalova. Legkov won a gold medal, and Vylegzhanin won three silver medals.

The International Biathlon Union suspended two biathletes who were in the Sochi games: Olga Vilukhina and Yana Romanova, according to La Gazzetta dello Sport. Vilukhina won silver in sprint, and both women were on a relay team that won the silver medal.

The International Bobsleigh and Skeleton Federation suspended four skeleton sliders. They are among the six athletes on the skeleton team: Nikita Tregubov, Alexander Tretyakov, Elena Nikitina, Maria Orlova, and Olga Potylitsina. Tretyakov won a gold medal, and Nikitina won a bronze.

Scorpius wrote:

Perhaps you are now ready to answer the outstanding question, where do you get your information from?

Scorpius wrote:

This is not the first time when the Americans can't win the honest way, they go for any, even the most vile actions. The IOC decision was based on unsubstantiated accusations, which in any court would not be accepted. And it's also not the first time already.

Scorpius wrote:

terrible Russian tennis player using doping


great American tennis player, has never used doping:


As if to confuse them.

Kiwirob wrote:

How many Russian winter athletes have been pinged for doping, not many, certainly not as many as the summer athletes. I’m also waiting on the IOC and WADA to have a through investigation of Norway cross country programme, the dominance of Norway in this sport doesn’t sit right with me, considering there are other surrounding nations with similar winters and also passionate about the sport.

Bostrom wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I live in Norway, have done for the last 11 years, I’ve always thought there was something not right about a tiny nation dominating cross country skiing, it doesn’t fit. A lot of Norwegians also have doubts about it as well. Joy gauge was found guilty of doping last season and banned from this games, all the Norwegian skiers as asthmatic and use drugs to control it, off don’t you think?

The Netherlands have dominated speed skating for decates and most come rom Friesland - pop. 500.000 - so what is your point, or are you sugesting that the Dutch speedskaters are on doping as well because it is your feeling that that is impossible?

If you live in Norway you must realize how popular cross country skiing is in the country, there are tracks everywhere and most children learn how to ski. So it's not strange that there are a lot of good Norwegian skiers. But they have to follow the rules as well, if you follow Norwegian media you must have learned about what has happened to Therese Johaug. There would probably be more Dutch skiers in the olympics if more Dutch children were exposed to cross country skiing. But skating seems to be more popular.

And a lot of success in one sport will make it more popular, in a sort of a positive feedback loop. Like the Dutch skaters probably.

Kiwirob wrote:

I live in Norway, have done for the last 11 years, I’ve always thought there was something not right about a tiny nation dominating cross country skiing, it doesn’t fit. A lot of Norwegians also have doubts about it as well. Joy gauge was found guilty of doping last season and banned from this games, all the Norwegian skiers as asthmatic and use drugs to control it, off don’t you think?

Kiwirob wrote:

My interest in Russia is due to my job and that I know dozens of Russians, they are good people who are unfairly treated by people like you, the media and the West in general. I bet you’ve never been to Russia.

LMP737 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I live in Norway, have done for the last 11 years, I’ve always thought there was something not right about a tiny nation dominating cross country skiing, it doesn’t fit. A lot of Norwegians also have doubts about it as well. Joy gauge was found guilty of doping last season and banned from this games, all the Norwegian skiers as asthmatic and use drugs to control it, off don’t you think?

The logic in that statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin. Maybe they do well because it's NORWAY! Using your logic maybe someone should look into Jamaica doing so well in track and field. I mean how could such a tiny country, smaller the Norway. accomplish such a feat? Maybe you should call Russia Today and have them look into it.

Kiwirob wrote:

My interest in Russia is due to my job and that I know dozens of Russians, they are good people who are unfairly treated by people like you, the media and the West in general. I bet you’ve never been to Russia.

Oh boo hoo. I feel for the Russian people but not for the made up reasons you give. In their recent history they had the opportunity to move away from thousands of years of czars and dictators. Unfortunately that didn't happen and what they have now is another president for for life and all his oligarch buddies.

Kiwirob wrote:

I know I’d hate waking up as an Australian!

Kiwirob wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Could you please show me were I unfairly treated Russians - note Russians, not Putin, not oligarchs, not the Kremlin but Russians -. And please show us where the media has treated Russians unfairly? And please show us were the west, in general, has treated Russians unfairly?

I don't need to, your post are inflamitory and anti Russia every chance you get.

LMP737 wrote:

Oh boo hoo. I feel for the Russian people but not for the made up reasons you give. In their recent history they had the opportunity to move away from thousands of years of czars and dictators. Unfortunately that didn't happen and what they have now is another president for for life and all his oligarch buddies.

Dutchy wrote:

The Netherlands: dimismale 12th (Full democracy)
America: 21th (Flawed democracies)
Russia: 134th (Authoritarian regimes)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

So you live in an authoritarian regime according to this list. Don't attack the messenger, attack the methods used and come with an alternative of an - according to you - an unbiased list where Russia is much better positioned. Or continue to live in your dream world where Russia is number one, both are fine by me.

See a trend here? Where is Russia positioned in each and every list and where is western Europe? I wish the best for ordinary Russians and wish they could live in a free and fair society. Hopefully you will devotate as much energy towards that goal as you do to defend the indefencable like you are doing here.

anrec80 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

The Netherlands: dimismale 12th (Full democracy)
America: 21th (Flawed democracies)
Russia: 134th (Authoritarian regimes)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

So you live in an authoritarian regime according to this list. Don't attack the messenger, attack the methods used and come with an alternative of an - according to you - an unbiased list where Russia is much better positioned. Or continue to live in your dream world where Russia is number one, both are fine by me.

See a trend here? Where is Russia positioned in each and every list and where is western Europe? I wish the best for ordinary Russians and wish they could live in a free and fair society. Hopefully you will devotate as much energy towards that goal as you do to defend the indefencable like you are doing here.

Why can't you just let people live the way they want to live in their country, without labeling their state, its institutions, leadership (or, as you put it, "regime"). Ordinary Russians are perfectly happy with the political system of their country, and with their leadership. Speaking of "free and fair" - you may not see their society as such, but they are nonetheless happy with it the way it is. Why add these labels? And - they are also more than happy with degree of freedom they have.

anrec80 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

The Netherlands: dimismale 12th (Full democracy)
America: 21th (Flawed democracies)
Russia: 134th (Authoritarian regimes)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

So you live in an authoritarian regime according to this list. Don't attack the messenger, attack the methods used and come with an alternative of an - according to you - an unbiased list where Russia is much better positioned. Or continue to live in your dream world where Russia is number one, both are fine by me.

See a trend here? Where is Russia positioned in each and every list and where is western Europe? I wish the best for ordinary Russians and wish they could live in a free and fair society. Hopefully you will devotate as much energy towards that goal as you do to defend the indefencable like you are doing here.

Why can't you just let people live the way they want to live in their country, without labeling their state, its institutions, leadership (or, as you put it, "regime"). Ordinary Russians are perfectly happy with the political system of their country, and with their leadership. Speaking of "free and fair" - you may not see their society as such, but they are nonetheless happy with it the way it is. Why add these labels? And - they are also more than happy with degree of freedom they have.

Dutchy wrote:

If you say ordinary Russians want to live their lives under an authoritarian regime with fewer rights, not under the rule of law, corruption, a high difference between the upper classes and ordinary citizens, no free press etc. etc. fine. But accept these things here and say Russians want to live like that.

anrec80 wrote:

I am not saying anything about how ordinary Russians want to live their lives.

Scorpius wrote:

The British, Norwegians,Spaniards and Swedes still obey the monarchs.

Scorpius wrote:

And Europeans love to talk about love Russian dictatorship, at that time, as throughout Europe are occupying US bases.

LMP737 wrote:

Scorpius wrote:

The British, Norwegians,Spaniards and Swedes still obey the monarchs.

That's probably news to the British, Norwegians, Spaniards and Sweeds.

Scorpius wrote:

And Europeans love to talk about love Russian dictatorship, at that time, as throughout Europe are occupying US bases.

Oh they're occupying bases now? Were those bases ever used to put down popular uprisings like the Soviet bases were in 1956 and 1968? Reality is they were there to keep guys like Joe V. Stalin at bay. And lot of those "occupying" bases have been closed the past thirty years. Because that's what occupying countries do. LOL.

Scorpius wrote:

LMP737 wrote:

Scorpius wrote:

The British, Norwegians,Spaniards and Swedes still obey the monarchs.

That's probably news to the British, Norwegians, Spaniards and Sweeds.

Scorpius wrote:

And Europeans love to talk about love Russian dictatorship, at that time, as throughout Europe are occupying US bases.

Oh they're occupying bases now? Were those bases ever used to put down popular uprisings like the Soviet bases were in 1956 and 1968? Reality is they were there to keep guys like Joe V. Stalin at bay. And lot of those "occupying" bases have been closed the past thirty years. Because that's what occupying countries do. LOL.

Oh, it is undoubtedly a huge achievement - the United States closed some occupation base in Europe. LOL. Freedom and independence is almost upon us. Well, at least you admitted what is needed in Europe to a NATO base to threaten Russia, not to protect.

anrec80 wrote:

LMP737 wrote:

Oh boo hoo. I feel for the Russian people but not for the made up reasons you give. In their recent history they had the opportunity to move away from thousands of years of czars and dictators. Unfortunately that didn't happen and what they have now is another president for for life and all his oligarch buddies.

Except that Russians consider themselves fortunate to have such leader. So do many Germans BTW. In addition, they had a period when they didn't have any "czars" or "dictators" - infamous 1990s. They will never be forgotten by Russians, and they truly hope something like this will never return.

prebennorholm wrote:

If somebody has forgotten, then this thread was about IOC rules and their enforcement:

- Individual athletes using illegal drugs are banned, when they get caught.
- Countries supporting systematic illegal drugs are banned, when they get caught.
- Individual athletes, who have proved clean, and who qualified, may participate, even when citizens of a banned country.

ltbewr wrote:

prebennorholm wrote:

If somebody has forgotten, then this thread was about IOC rules and their enforcement:

- Individual athletes using illegal drugs are banned, when they get caught.
- Countries supporting systematic illegal drugs are banned, when they get caught.
- Individual athletes, who have proved clean, and who qualified, may participate, even when citizens of a banned country.

Thank you.
There is no doubt there are political issues with the ban of an official Russian team at the Winter Olympics in February but it had to be done. Yes, the IOC is a bunch of hacks, but they also know the value of their 'property' is deeply affected by a belief that many athletes are abusing drugs and other methods to cheat and win for their country and themselves. The documented extent of the cheating being done with official support by the political leaders of Russia was so blatant and far beyond sanity it had to be stopped or destroy the Olympics.
What is really important is the need to protect the athletes health from themselves or abuses by their coaches and political leaders. For far too many is is an ability to make big bucks or get preferred treatment from your government comes with winning a medal. It is not good to win a medal but the crap taken or told to take to get there causes unusual diseases, cancers, affects their sexual hormones, unable to father or birth children, ruins their general health, inflicts terrible pain, has psychological affects or makes them die far younger than normal. This is why Russia is being so severely punished - to protect the athletes and assure literally a fair playing field for participants.

Scorpius wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

prebennorholm wrote:

If somebody has forgotten, then this thread was about IOC rules and their enforcement:

- Individual athletes using illegal drugs are banned, when they get caught.
- Countries supporting systematic illegal drugs are banned, when they get caught.
- Individual athletes, who have proved clean, and who qualified, may participate, even when citizens of a banned country.

Thank you.
There is no doubt there are political issues with the ban of an official Russian team at the Winter Olympics in February but it had to be done. Yes, the IOC is a bunch of hacks, but they also know the value of their 'property' is deeply affected by a belief that many athletes are abusing drugs and other methods to cheat and win for their country and themselves. The documented extent of the cheating being done with official support by the political leaders of Russia was so blatant and far beyond sanity it had to be stopped or destroy the Olympics.
What is really important is the need to protect the athletes health from themselves or abuses by their coaches and political leaders. For far too many is is an ability to make big bucks or get preferred treatment from your government comes with winning a medal. It is not good to win a medal but the crap taken or told to take to get there causes unusual diseases, cancers, affects their sexual hormones, unable to father or birth children, ruins their general health, inflicts terrible pain, has psychological affects or makes them die far younger than normal. This is why Russia is being so severely punished - to protect the athletes and assure literally a fair playing field for participants.

Then why not punish the United States or Norway? They have almost all athletes use doping. Only here it is for some reason called "doping allowed". The situation with the prohibition of participation of the Russian team - it's just clearing the field for the Americans. There is not no law, no justice. I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.