ltbewr
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:41 pm

As to the USA and others countries, there have been individual athletes caught and punished. For the USA we for sure have own issues. Our Major League Baseball had an extremely serious problem with PED's in the 1990's and until a few years ago. In part it was encouraged by a strike in the early 1990's by players/shutout by owners and a need to recover so pretty much every one winked at PED's to get more scoring, especially home runs. Eventually it went too far, causing problems for players health and an extremely unfair playing field so testing regimens for PED's were put in, players punished with extensive suspension from play and payment. The National Football League also put in strict testing regimens and penalties for PED's as some players or ex-players were having serious health problems from them.
We have also seen serious problems with PED's in a number of sports from competitors from around the world, including the USA, especially Cycling, Weightlifting, Track and Field, even tennis and x-country skiing where improvements in testing and strict punishments have happened.
At some point Russia and other countries have to change there attitudes toward PED's or face the shame of bans from competition such as with the upcoming Olympics.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:52 pm

Scorpius wrote:
There is not no law, no justice.


There is law, the Russians broke it. There is justice, the Russians are banned. :wave:

Scorpius wrote:
I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.


Don't spoil your vodka with your salty tears. :crying:
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Scorpius
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:07 pm

ltbewr wrote:
As to the USA and others countries, there have been individual athletes caught and punished. For the USA we for sure have own issues. Our Major League Baseball had an extremely serious problem with PED's in the 1990's and until a few years ago. In part it was encouraged by a strike in the early 1990's by players/shutout by owners and a need to recover so pretty much every one winked at PED's to get more scoring, especially home runs. Eventually it went too far, causing problems for players health and an extremely unfair playing field so testing regimens for PED's were put in, players punished with extensive suspension from play and payment. The National Football League also put in strict testing regimens and penalties for PED's as some players or ex-players were having serious health problems from them.
We have also seen serious problems with PED's in a number of sports from competitors from around the world, including the USA, especially Cycling, Weightlifting, Track and Field, even tennis and x-country skiing where improvements in testing and strict punishments have happened.
At some point Russia and other countries have to change there attitudes toward PED's or face the shame of bans from competition such as with the upcoming Olympics.


We see two things:
1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia

What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?
Just say "Yes, we want to humiliate Russia by any means and it will bring politics into the Olympic movement."
I recall that was already the Olympics without the Soviet Union in 1934. Olympics in Pyeongchang will be associated with it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:10 pm

Scorpius wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
As to the USA and others countries, there have been individual athletes caught and punished. For the USA we for sure have own issues. Our Major League Baseball had an extremely serious problem with PED's in the 1990's and until a few years ago. In part it was encouraged by a strike in the early 1990's by players/shutout by owners and a need to recover so pretty much every one winked at PED's to get more scoring, especially home runs. Eventually it went too far, causing problems for players health and an extremely unfair playing field so testing regimens for PED's were put in, players punished with extensive suspension from play and payment. The National Football League also put in strict testing regimens and penalties for PED's as some players or ex-players were having serious health problems from them.
We have also seen serious problems with PED's in a number of sports from competitors from around the world, including the USA, especially Cycling, Weightlifting, Track and Field, even tennis and x-country skiing where improvements in testing and strict punishments have happened.
At some point Russia and other countries have to change there attitudes toward PED's or face the shame of bans from competition such as with the upcoming Olympics.


We see two things:
1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia

What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?
Just say "Yes, we want to humiliate Russia by any means and it will bring politics into the Olympic movement."
I recall that was already the Olympics without the Soviet Union in 1934. Olympics in Pyeongchang will be associated with it.


You missed the third thing:
3. Russia had a doping system and the anti-doping was working actively to prevent Russian athletes from getting caught.

In 1. Athletes get expelled, in 3. the country get expelled. What did you expect?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:21 pm

Scorpius wrote:
We see two things:

1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia

What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?


But you ignore one little difference - individual athletes from other counties cheat and are individually punished when caught.

Russia cheats as a nation and is subsequently banned as a nation.

Which part of that are you having difficulty understanding? Perhaps it isn't a lack of understand but simply denial?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
We see two things:

1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia

What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?


But you ignore one little difference - individual athletes from other counties cheat and are individually punished when caught.

Russia cheats as a nation and is subsequently banned as a nation.

Which part of that are you having difficulty understanding? Perhaps it isn't a lack of understand but simply denial?


What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment? I have no doubt that Western countries have reached the pinnacle of the art of lying, but don't be surprised then that nobody believes you.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:30 pm

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
We see two things:

1. Athletes of all countries use doping.
2. Removed only Russia

What kind of law, what kind of justice is it?


But you ignore one little difference - individual athletes from other counties cheat and are individually punished when caught.

Russia cheats as a nation and is subsequently banned as a nation.

Which part of that are you having difficulty understanding? Perhaps it isn't a lack of understand but simply denial?


What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment? I have no doubt that Western countries have reached the pinnacle of the art of lying, but don't be surprised then that nobody believes you.


If caught a ban from the Olympics, just like Russia.

I have doubt that Russia have reached the pinnacle of the art of lying, but don't be surprised then that nobody believes you. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Bostrom
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:56 pm

Scorpius wrote:
What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?


http://www.skysports.com/more-sports/ot ... n-extended

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:16 pm

Scorpius wrote:
What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?


So which American and Norwegian athletes have been caught taking performance enhancing drugs and haven't been punished? Name names. :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?


So which American and Norwegian athletes have been caught taking performance enhancing drugs and haven't been punished? Name names. :scratchchin:

Martin Johnsrud Sundby, Marit Bjørgen, Maiken Caspersen Falla, Ole Einar Bjørndalen, Emil Hegle Svendsen, etc.
And it is only those names that are known.
But let the future deal: "I say nonsense, and you refute it, writing a doctoral dissertation" - is working. So let us and you, once blamed Russia in some kind of organized structure of doping, let us with specific names and evidence. And not fairy tales about "evil FSB scratched the tube, so all samples are spoofed, and even if we didn't find doping in these samples, but we do know that he was there, I swear".


And one more thing - what do you think about the suspension of Russian athletes for the presence of Meldonium in those samples, which were taken when Meldonium was not yet a banned substance? You do not bother?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 470
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:20 pm

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
What's up with Norwegian and American athletes who take performance enhancing drugs? How's about their punishment?
So which American and Norwegian athletes have been caught taking performance enhancing drugs and haven't been punished? Name names. :scratchchin:

Martin Johnsrud Sundby, Marit Bjørgen, Maiken Caspersen Falla, Ole Einar Bjørndalen, Emil Hegle Svendsen, etc.
And it is only those names that are known.

Martin Johnsrud Sundby
On 20 July 2016 Sundby was banned from competition for two months by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) for an anti-doping rule violation (use of asthma medication salbutamol). The CAS panel criticised the drafting of the rule. For this and other reasons, including that Sundby declared salbutamol at the time of the test, the panel found his degree of fault light and opted for a short sanction.

Marit Bjørgen
In the 2009–2010 season Bjørgen had a Therapeutic Use Exemption issued by FIS for the asthma medication Symbicort. As of September 2011 athletes no longer need a TUE for Symbicort, and the drug can be used by any athlete...

Maiken Caspersen Falla
Nothing to see here

Ole Einar Bjørndalen
Nothing here either

Emil Hegle Svendsen
Nothing, except a quote; " Next step in the fight against doping should be tougher penalties."

Five names. Only one actual offence, and that was considered "light", and the ban has been served.

Ok, we are done here. I'm not wasting any more time arguing with a TROLL.
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:21 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Martin Johnsrud Sundby


Banned and had titles stripped. How was he not punished?

You're going to have to help me with the others, because I can't find anything that suggests any of them have been found guilty of doping.

Scorpius wrote:
And one more thing - what do you think about the suspension of Russian athletes for the presence of Meldonium in those samples, which were taken when Meldonium was not yet a banned substance? You do not bother?


Which Russian athletes have been suspended for using Meldonium when it wasn't a banned substance?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:14 am

scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
There is not no law, no justice.


There is law, the Russians broke it. There is justice, the Russians are banned. :wave:

Scorpius wrote:
I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.


Don't spoil your vodka with your salty tears. :crying:


There is nothing to spoil vodka with, don't worry. What's there to cry after?

Collective punishment isn't justice. Neither is re-shuffling hard earned and hard won medals because someone saw a scratch somewhere, or just ended up in some list of someone with a reputation far from stellar. Which is a bigger problem.

If you want an athlete to compete somewhere, they, and their supporters, need to have 100% confidence that they will be judged honestly, and treated equally and fairly. Which is no longer the case as you can see. Ask yourself this - what's the value of this award if you didn't win it in honest competition with your strongest competitor, but instead that competitor was eliminated or put into disadvantage by the means having nothing to do with sports?

Hence, expectedly, you will have fewer people watching this competition and supporting competitors. As the result of this decision, there will be no TV translations of these Olympics in Russia - because there is no interest in Russian society to this Olympic movement. As the result, their best athletes will switch to other competition sites - new and existing, where their basic right for judgement can be respected better. Other competitions will take hearts and minds of Russian sports fans. 1-2 more seasons like this, and it'll take a lot of time for this movement to regain its place in Russian hearts and minds. Yes, there will be some adjustment period for athletes, but at the end - the Olympic movement will be at loss, and more nations may follow.
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:33 am

Scorpius wrote:
And one more thing - what do you think about the suspension of Russian athletes for the presence of Meldonium in those samples, which were taken when Meldonium was not yet a banned substance? You do not bother?


There is nothing to think here - when one sees such treatment towards themselves, it's perfectly reasonable to turn around and leave, without making any strong or loud statements. This works like a charm in relations with EU, Council of Europe, this situation with sanctions - now all EU is all over Moscow looking for the way out if this Ukrainian mess. And when Russians said they'd stop recognizing Human Rights Court's authority - that triggered talks about lifting sanctions. Same here - 1-2 seasons of silence, no Olympic team, no news coverage, and IOC will be in Moscow seeking a way out of this situation.

They are even running after North Korea to participate - Thomas Bach himself was going to go to Pyongyang to convince them to send a team. BTW - what do you think, if they did such a fabricated scandal towards NK - what would the IOC get? I bet they'll get big and fat middle finger right at the time of the decision announcement to begin with, a statement that North Korea will not take part "in such a farce", and perhaps demands to "take it away from Korean borders elsewhere". Might as well fire a missile or two right above Pyeongchang. Nobody in Pyongyang would really miss participation in anything like this.

Russia should also do more of what USA (and China mostly for this reason) does - be in organizations they either can control (NATO, our Olympic movement falls into this bucket), or in organizations they aren't constrained by (UN, WTO, Pacific regional ones really), where nothing is impacted by decisions made there. If you aren't treated equally and fairly - there is nothing wrong with not taking part in such events.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
This works like a charm in relations with EU, Council of Europe, this situation with sanctions - now all EU is all over Moscow looking for the way out if this Ukrainian mess. And when Russians said they'd stop recognizing Human Rights Court's authority - that triggered talks about lifting sanctions.


Please back up this statement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Russia should also do more of what USA (and China mostly for this reason) does - be in organizations they either can control (NATO, our Olympic movement falls into this bucket), or in organizations they aren't constrained by (UN, WTO, Pacific regional ones really), where nothing is impacted by decisions made there. If you aren't treated equally and fairly - there is nothing wrong with not taking part in such events.


Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:16 pm

Has Russia the country recognized there was a doping program ? No, they assassinated the whistle blowers. And you're surprised they get banned ? Wake up to reality.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:10 pm

anrec80 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
There is not no law, no justice.


There is law, the Russians broke it. There is justice, the Russians are banned. :wave:

Scorpius wrote:
I, like many of my friends seem to think that the Olympic movement should be boycotted by Russia in the future - we have no confidence in the IOC or any other Olympic officials. For me personally, the Olympics has died - there is no struggle, there is no justice. And the West once again showed that never plays fair.


Don't spoil your vodka with your salty tears. :crying:


There is nothing to spoil vodka with, don't worry. What's there to cry after?

Collective punishment isn't justice. Neither is re-shuffling hard earned and hard won medals because someone saw a scratch somewhere, or just ended up in some list of someone with a reputation far from stellar. Which is a bigger problem.

If you want an athlete to compete somewhere, they, and their supporters, need to have 100% confidence that they will be judged honestly, and treated equally and fairly. Which is no longer the case as you can see. Ask yourself this - what's the value of this award if you didn't win it in honest competition with your strongest competitor, but instead that competitor was eliminated or put into disadvantage by the means having nothing to do with sports?

Hence, expectedly, you will have fewer people watching this competition and supporting competitors. As the result of this decision, there will be no TV translations of these Olympics in Russia - because there is no interest in Russian society to this Olympic movement. As the result, their best athletes will switch to other competition sites - new and existing, where their basic right for judgement can be respected better. Other competitions will take hearts and minds of Russian sports fans. 1-2 more seasons like this, and it'll take a lot of time for this movement to regain its place in Russian hearts and minds. Yes, there will be some adjustment period for athletes, but at the end - the Olympic movement will be at loss, and more nations may follow.


They do not understand. They discrediting the Olympics as such. And that in addition to the Olympics they discrediting international institutions in the UN, UNESCO, Council of Europe, court of human rights. These institutions attempt to stabilize the situation on the planet that any country could be sure in a fair attitude towards themselves. The West is now engaged in active destruction. Remember the League of Nations and its destiny - then this organization discredited Western countries, and their policies eventually led to the Second World war.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.

Ok - so now you are saying the participation in Olympic movement has to do whether one is a super power or not. While Olympic movement was intended to be away from politics. Are you saying that this has failed? And - are you essentially admitting that the whole scandal is political? And would not have happened if it was the US to be suspected in anything like this?
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:38 am

Aesma wrote:
Has Russia the country recognized there was a doping program ? No, they assassinated the whistle blowers. And you're surprised they get banned ? Wake up to reality.


Why should they admit something that didn't happen and exists only in someone's fantasies?

I am awake, don't worry. Was there a single positive probe? No. The only conclusion they found were "scratches on the tubes". And statements of the dude with far from stellar reputation, who actually organized the corruption scheme. And instead of cooperating with law enforcement officials (and there is investigations of doping sales against him in Russia), they granted refuge to this dude and placed his statements into the center of everything. And, according to the guy, "yes, I am making these statements to make some money". And then you are surprised why your institutions are losing their reputation and trust, and it's not only IOC.

This thing has nothing to do with any "state sponsored scheme" - it's a common corruption scandal, at the center of which there is an official appointed by WADA itself (now informer Rodchenkov). And WADA, instead of admitting their fair share of responsibility for putting him in charge, now accused Russia). WADA should be the first to answer questions how this became possible. And - processes of doping testing and probes handling is their responsibility.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.


Likely to work. To prosper, this IOC needs TV exposure, audience, fan base and participants of course. Russia is a huge market and source of all that. Hence the IOC leadership will run around Russia in no time. Why do you think they didn't ban Russia entirely? For exactly these reasons.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:40 am

From the discussion on one of the forums of news about the Olympics (not mine): "officials are to blame. I just hate that now athletes your trip even more guano to drive want.
Officials to be punished. Athletes give money that would not financially hurt, those who did not go. The rest — good riddance to join the European family, though juchelka, although carcass.

You know how Europeans would react? "look, Hans, and go out under a white flag, these Ruska, see, they even have special decals on the chest, lol. Correctly these Schwein my grandfather kicked it untermensch. Probably again doping obelis. Come to check them every ten minutes - and let him try to pee. Yeah, he is a juice drink. Hans, do you know what this secret doping of the FSB, "Mors"*? No? So I do not know. So secret doping, exactly."

Who and what athletes want to prove? Just spitting in their face laughing the Europeans?
By the way, what are the results the athletes will be in such an atmosphere? Besides, the strongest beat
."

*Mors is a drink made from berries or fruit, is the traditional Russian drink known from the XV century.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.

Ok - so now you are saying the participation in Olympic movement has to do whether one is a super power or not. While Olympic movement was intended to be away from politics. Are you saying that this has failed? And - are you essentially admitting that the whole scandal is political? And would not have happened if it was the US to be suspected in anything like this?


Are you deliberating twisting my words or do you do this unintentionally? I was responding to your statement that Russia should be only a member to organizations it can control or aren't constrained by. How do you make this about the Olympic movement is beyond me. You are saying Russia should isolate itself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia isn't a superpower, so that would not work. I guess you say Russia should just stay away from organizations altogether.


Likely to work. To prosper, this IOC needs TV exposure, audience, fan base and participants of course. Russia is a huge market and source of all that. Hence the IOC leadership will run around Russia in no time. Why do you think they didn't ban Russia entirely? For exactly these reasons.


Lol, you do know WADA is independent of the IOC, right? So they will come to these conclusions and then they have to react to these conclusions. Now Russia has an economy smaller than Italy, which are, in your eyes, more important, the way the rest of the world views the Olympic movement or including Russia?

Why would you ban all Russian athletes entirely if you want to have as many athletes competing as possible? Because they didn't just show you you are wrong, although you will never admit it. It isn't about punishing Russia or "the whole world is against Russia", it is about what Russia does and doesn't do which is against the spirit of the Olympic movement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
This works like a charm in relations with EU, Council of Europe, this situation with sanctions - now all EU is all over Moscow looking for the way out if this Ukrainian mess. And when Russians said they'd stop recognizing Human Rights Court's authority - that triggered talks about lifting sanctions.


Please back up this statement.


anrec80, you forgot to back-up this statement, I am still interested in you answer.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:55 am

Dutchy wrote:

Please back up this statement.


https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-fears-c ... 82603.html

Here you are.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:05 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Please back up this statement.


https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-fears-c ... 82603.html

Here you are.


Those aren't EU sanctions or is about the EU. So again, please back your statement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:45 pm

Another six Russians caught cheating:

IOC bans six Russian female ice hockey players for life over doping


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/spo ... 041297.cms
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4663
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Re: Russia banned from Winter Olympics 2018

Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
Another six Russians caught cheating:

IOC bans six Russian female ice hockey players for life over doping


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/spo ... 041297.cms


you may have overlooked this:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1380437#p20004965
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